Will my team be able to pass their way to world domination?

[Djuicer]

2 hours ago, skyline72 said:

Destroy Liverpool! 

De Jong is there too. But they are greedy (I of course expect nothing less ).

[Djuicer]

2 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

thats exactly a dlp(s) that i saw but i needed to ask. my observation was mainly cause in build up for the goal it seemed your central players to make more of a box than a diamond. i liked the way your f9 (or treq) was more creative and roaming than mine and im searching on that.

I think he uses a F9 with roam. But @Crazy_Ivan will have to answer to be certain.

[DimitrisLar]

1 minute ago, Djuicer said:

I think he uses a F9 with roam. But @Crazy_Ivan will have to answer to be certain.

it was the first time in 3 years with lazio that i managed to get past the round of 16 and i played in a way to pull the enemies to my half of the pitch, circulate the ball and expose the space with two If(a) but the f9 stayed higher than i wanted so maybe a dlp with an other deeper role give him more license to come deep. i used an ap(s) and an rpm without going forward or move into channels. that role management in fm is so frustrating and interesting at the same time xD

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

I think he uses a F9 with roam. But @Crazy_Ivan will have to answer to be certain.

Exactly right, a converted AP with some traits included but limited in his finishing abilities.

[Djuicer]

3 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Exactly right, a converted AP with some traits included but limited in his finishing abilities.

 

This is old, but gold. Some things is not the same any more, and pictures are missing. The quality is immense though.

Edit: Even if we dont use that formation, many of us still have the most forward player as a creator.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Djuicer

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

 

This is old, but gold. Some things is not the same any more, and pictures are missing. The quality is immense though.

Edit: Even if we dont use that formation, many of us still have the most forward player as a creator.

Was going through an old SFraser thread yesterday......he was sublime at analysing and implementing ideas in FM.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Crazy_Ivan

[yonko]

11 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I am doing some more testing and then will happily share. The roles in the middle are very similar to one of yours actually but the TI's and PI's are somewhat different. Rashidi recently did a Bielsa setup on YouTube and that is the inspiration for it so you can imagine the tempo is higher whilst passing is shorter. The player you see making the through ball is my primary creator but he is set up as a CM on attack with his PIs and traits set up to be that kind of engache player.  One other major change is I stick to Rashidis default closing and use the split-block system he has in place on his Bielsa system and I find that works better for my team. 

I have actually turned off the in game possession stats. I found myself getting too obsessed with possession and some games I am racking up 72% possession and others it's 49% and I will focus on that half empty 49% when I can fully see in the action zone that we are dominating the other team. 

 

10 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

He is a DLP on support but it's the spot I am most concerned about and I am keeping a close eye on it. I don't want to entirely stifle him but I am also worried about his passing stats and you can see this isn't very helpful when done too often. Ordinarily I wouldn't mind too much but that was with a low number of passes.

As I typed this I am keeping any eye on my friendly match and spot this. This is what I mean and need to tweak. DLP(15 in this case) receives the ball, the primary creator(8 in this case) is wide open with a stretched defence and a big overload on the left and he decides to ping it to that overload but manages to actually find the only defender out there. We still end up scoring through the sheer numbers of players around that defender who manage to wrestle the ball off him and score but the obvious play is 15 to 8 to then move forward draw that defender and slip the ball through to the waiting overload.

Obviously because he is a DLP and my actual creator is a CM the DLP thinks he is the primary creator so just bypassed him so that's what I need to figure out.

 

So DLP-S with CM-A and HB-D in midfield? Does your DLP have "plays short simple passes" or does he have "tries killer balls often"? Are you using "pass into space" TI?

I think if you use "much shorter passing" (plus short individual passing) and your DLP has "plays short simple passes" without "tries killer balls often" then your DLP should be finding the CM-A or the DM next to him.

In the video you posted I liked the short quick passes between the 3 midfielders with killer ball for your IF (?) to score. 

[Djuicer]

The development of a club, or the creation of a winning mentality. For starters there is some amazing content about this around this site. This by @optimusprimal82 is fantastic. I have used some of this for a long time but it's always nice to freshen up your memory.

 

We will dig into the backroom staff. I will also cover development of players, what key’s that I find are most important and more. Lastly I will show some schedules I have been using this season. Inspired by @Mikaelinhos post regarding this matter.

 

So, regarding the staff at the club. What is it that I value? What do I want? First, of course I want my first team staff to be competent at their specialized assignment. The most important person in the staff (except me) for me, is the assistant manager. Attributes I look for are man management, motivation, tactical knowledge and judging player ability. Also I value if the assistant is able to hold his own sessions too, but that is not what I value the most (coaching attributes). For this purpose I hire first team coaches. The single most important thing I look for is something else though, it is the personality of my assistant manager. I prefer the “usual suspects” paired with at least 14 determination, this due to a change from FM19 when the staff's personalities started to affect the players. In this game I poached Rui Faria for this job from his former employer Paris Saint Germain, who had this top-class assistant working with their U19 team.

I delegate team talks and other duties to the assistant manager, often I set him to be responsible for training and I usually

Spoiler

according to @Seb Wassell: Running training, i.e. what schedules they select, is based on style, preferences, time of season and your own tactics.  Regarding the delegation to my assistant.

 just change some weeks and single sessions. Now I have been more hands on though and I have utilized those schedules quite a lot, with at least decent results. The main focus is to develop our ability to carry out JDP as good as possible, without sacrificing individual growth. First one out is when we are having a game free week, which is not common.

This is the schedule we use if we have one game (saturday)

 

If there is two games in one week we use this schedule.

Spoiler

The "match practice" is the actual game at the given weeks so match tactics becomes match prewiev.

Intensity is set to automatic and the settings is just slightly adjusted so that players with 90 % conditioning have doubled intensity.

The person I consider to be the second most important staff member is the head of youth deployment. The reason behind this is that he will affect the youth intake. So he can be crucial if  you want to have success developing your own golden generation. Due to him affecting personalities of the youth intake i strongly suggest you go for one with an outstanding personality (Model Citizen, Model Professional, Perfectionist). What else do I look for in the HOYD? Well for starters it is nice if he is good in the Working with youngsters category. A bonus if he is competent at more coaching stuff. Among other attributes I value highly is the ability to judge player potential. I do not take lightly on the suggestions about which prospects to offer contracts too and which one who will not be welcome at the club any longer after their trials are ending. Me being Manchester City I wanted to have a true football manager legend to guide my kids to glory. I went to Germany and lured Bernhard Peters to come to Manchester.

 

When I arrived at City there already was a competent staff installed, but I wanted some of my own trusties (from Fulham) and to upgrade some personalities. So I brought in a whole army of staff from all over the world, assistant manager and HOYD was just the top (tip?) of the iceberg. With some help from DOF Tixiki Bergistain to be fair.

 

The last person I often prioritize is the director of football. I often let him handle a lot of contracts and sales. I often let him control scouting too, as I said I like to delegate to increase the pace of the game. Honestly I expect my DOF to be good at all the knowledge attributes. Tixiki as you can expect does not lack in any of these. Add his Driven personality and you have one of the better DOFs in the game.

 

I think that is enough about my staff. They ain’t that exciting to talk about after all. Players on the other hand are interesting. So when developing a youngster, what do I focus on? Well it's of course going to be different with every player. As a guideline though I often focus on well rounded, complete players (hello Renus Michels). To achieve this I use different strategies, I think they are inspired by mostly by @Cleon(again) and @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! (again). 

 

Firstly, what defines a well rounded player? I would say it is a  player with few or no weaknesses, and a weakness is relative (to the league, your team and more) but for some positions some attributes do not matter that much. So how do you get well rounded players? I use two different methods.
1  the positional/role training.
2  the additional focus training.
Also, the team training can help to get well rounded players. 

 

If I have a forward player who is maybe lacking some in a few or quite a lot of attributes I would most certainly go for the Complete forward role and no additional focus.

 

On the other hand if you have a player who is so so good technically and mentaly, but he barely got any legs. Then I would use the additional focus solely. To give an extra boost to that pace training. 

 

The last example will be if you have a technically profound forward who you wouldn't say is fast, but no slouch either. The only attributes he’s missing is balance, strength, jumping and some mentals. Then the Targetman role would be a nice starting point. But, do you even use any of those roles? I seldom do, but I really like them to develop well rounded players.
 

For most positions I have a go to role that I put most players I'm not certain of. 

*Goalies go to role in training - Sweeper keeper.
*Central defenders - Libero.
*Full backs - Complete wing back.
*Defensive midfielders - Segundo volante (if the player is adventurous, otherwise half-back)
*Midfielders - Roaming playmaker.
*Wide players - Winger or inverted winger.
*Attacking midfielder - Shadow striker.
*Forwards - Complete forward.

 

A lot of players I use a unnatural positional/role training to make the players capable of playing in more positions, thus increasing the tactical- and squad- building options. Simply put, the players become more complete.

 

As for players I strive to have a squad with as many “positive” mentalities as possibly (you can find those in the guide by @optimusprimal82). I also prefer high determination (14+, or after a couple of seasons probably higher) when the players have become of age (after 25 they seem to be very stubborn to correct/change if the personality ain't good). 

 

Mentors. Mentoring is a good tool to develop traits and personalities in your team. Affecting this is mainly a players status in the hierarchy. I often keep or bring in players that are at the end of their career for this purpose if they have, A - a good personality to rub off to the squad or B - an average personality but desirable traits or C - both personality and traits that are desirable. As a role of thumb I try to have at least one senior keeper, defender, midfielder and forward for mentoring purposes mainly. If the player also can contribute on the pitch it's a great bonus, but if I have enough resources it's not a must. In my current Manchester City team the one fitting this bill is Sergio Agüero, no longer at his peak. But versus worse teams he can still contribute.

 

Finally here are some examples of players and what I have chosen to do with them. First I will show my personal favourite and a player whom I found in Argentina and brought to England. Sebastian Savoldi. Today he is a monster of a player with almost no weaknesses (aggression and flair). When he arrived he was not close to this player and for him to become what he is today I trained him in roles that were mainly focusing on the mentals he lacked (mostly flair). Most commonly he trained as an advanced playmaker although he was almost never used as one. Salvodi when he arrived to the islands:

 

Savoldi is the newgen/regen I have gotten the biggest attachment to in a long time. This is him as of today:

As you can see, he was good when he came to England, now he is in the upper bracket of players around the world. Pure class. Flair has gained impressive 4 points and is now not such a big issue as it used to be.

 

The second one I will show at this point is another player I have managed in both clubs. Always rated by my scouts and at this point I'm starting to understand why. Antonio Carlos was almost complete when we signed him. So the approach here has been to make his strengths even stronger. He has not been assigned any role/positional training but he has had different additional focuses, such as quickness (pace, acceleration) and passing (vision, passing, technique). If he lacks anything it is possibly jumping range but due to us trying to keep the ball on the ground it won’t be anything I will spend his hours on the training ground.

 

Today Antonio Carlos is better, and has learned some PPMs.

I have no qualms that Antonio Carlos will become a world class player, when the scouts say he will be better than Sterling and Bernardo Silva you know that you have found a true gem. The rest now, it is up to me. To nurture and develop him into the beast he is supposed to become.

 

EDIT: AC develops constantly.

 

Okay, one more. Romulad Fournier. A technically average defender with great versatility and impressive physique. For him to develop the technical aspects I have mainly used role/positional training and choosen to use complete wing back and libero as roles. This was him when I bought him:

 

Today he is a bit developed at least.

 

If you get in good staff, and som players that can mentor the younger. I think you have good foundations to create a winning spirit in your club/team. Its also important to not overhaul the whole club at once, let it take time.

 

And that's all, for now.
 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Djuicer

[Guest]

This is brilliant stuff as ever. I have a question. How do you find your scouting working out? Do you find the DOF covering the scouting fairly well?

[Mikaelinho]

Great post with nice insights! It'll be interesting to follow along!

[Djuicer]

13 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

This is brilliant stuff as ever. I have a question. How do you find your scouting working out? Do you find the DOF covering the scouting fairly well?

I think they do ok. I usually set some lose guidelines like age and sometimes special focuses. I also shortlist and scout a lot of players manually. Mostly in south america. The shortlist I have "keep scout reports up to date" checked so they will scout the shortlisted guys a lot. For the shortlist i try to have atleast 10 players for every position shortlisted.

[Djuicer]

Antonio Carlos keeps on developing.

 

Now we scored this beauty (its not a freekick its just a slight delay when the gif starts): 

 

This game also sealed the first major title:

 

And thus we broke Liverpools subscripton on the title:

 

Players team of the year:

 

Soon its time for the CL final, but why not release some good news ahead to increase team spirit and morale?

Edited May 10, 2020 by Djuicer

[Djuicer]

The day of the final, JDP vs Genpressing, Me vs Klopp, Barcelona vs Manchester City (Barca has joined the darkside). Apparently the players did not drink their energy drinks (suppose I must hire Vardy as a coach). Anyway due to some minor changes they apparently woke up. Us catching up from two goals behind. Incredible. With this I think we can say that the project was a sucess and that you can win everything with possession football that has attacking intent.

 

And the PMA (post-match-analysis):

 

Quadruple complete:

 

This is how the team looked in the end. We have some more great PPMs that we lacked from the start. The PFa has Roam from positons and take more risk. DMs holds position. @Justified is Ederson attacking enough now? 

 

 

And lastly, our three goals from the final. The first goal is great and resembles what I want and demands from my team.

 

Recognize any pattern? Players in good postions take advantage when opportunities comes by. The second is a shot that bounces to Gomes.

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Djuicer

[JoOSTAR]

Quote

Feel free to ask for PIs, PPMs or mentality structure.

Maybe it's better to cover them all in a post (if you have time of course), because people will probably ask them all

Looks like you're having a fun save!

[Djuicer]

42 minutes ago, JoOSTAR said:

Maybe it's better to cover them all in a post (if you have time of course), because people will probably ask them all

Looks like you're having a fun save!

Good idea. Will do so!

 

yeah, its a fine save. I have worked my way up to the top. Feels good 

[Razor940]

I find that against cautious teams I press a lot better without counter press.

[retrodude09]

@Djuicer - what prompted the change from a Trequartista to a Pressing Forward? 

[Djuicer]

17 hours ago, Razor940 said:

I find that against cautious teams I press a lot better without counter press.

Seems reasonable. I will try this out for myself 

11 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

@Djuicer - what prompted the change from a Trequartista to a Pressing Forward? 

I will cover the changes in a bigger update 

Short version though, it was a change to push us over the line in CL and the leaugue. It just delivered better resluts, even though I prefered the Trequratista in theory and how it looked on the pitch, results was better with the PFa.

[coach vahid]

Il y a 2 heures, Djuicer a dit :

Seems reasonable. I will try this out for myself 

I will cover the changes in a bigger update 

Short version though, it was a change to push us over the line in CL and the leaugue. It just delivered better resluts, even though I prefered the Trequratista in theory and how it looked on the pitch, results was better with the PFa.

This is the most difficult. What we have in our mind, theory... And what we see really in games and in our results. 

[Djuicer]

6 minutes ago, coach vahid said:

This is the most difficult. What we have in our mind, theory... And what we see really in games and in our results. 

True. But with the new faces I hopefully won't have to care. As current CL and PL champions with those additions the aim must be to get every thropy avalible. Cost me a fair amount though (£280M).

1 

 

2

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Djuicer

[scwiffy]

11 minutes ago, coach vahid said:

This is the most difficult. What we have in our mind, theory... And what we see really in games and in our results. 

100%. I used to go in with a set idea of how I want to play, adjusting roles and TIs as I went, but more and more I'm going in with a very loose idea and letting everything be shaped by whats working out on the pitch and producing results, this works best of course one minor change at a time

[skyline72]

1 hour ago, Djuicer said:

True. But with the new faces I hopefully won't have to care. As current CL and PL champions with those additions the aim must be to get every thropy avalible. Cost me a fair amount though (£280M).

1 

 

2

 

WHAT?!

3M for winning FA Cup?!

[Djuicer]

2 hours ago, skyline72 said:

WHAT?!

3M for winning FA Cup?!

Yeah, greedy them zebras.

[giggety]

What's cool about FM is that you can literally play the game for years, you think you've done everything and tried it all, then a thread like this comes along and reinvigorate your interest in the game again. Great read @Djuicer

Season 2 with La Real, season 4 in-game. My second head-to-head with FCB, who has the sickest team. Last season we collapsed a few rounds before the end, this year it could maybe (?) work out.. We have Barca at home soon and have everything in our own hands...

[Djuicer]

25 minutes ago, giggety said:

What's cool about FM is that you can literally play the game for years, you think you've done everything and tried it all, then a thread like this comes along and reinvigorate your interest in the game again. Great read @Djuicer

Season 2 with La Real, season 4 in-game. My second head-to-head with FCB, who has the sickest team. Last season we collapsed a few rounds before the end, this year it could maybe (?) work out.. We have Barca at home soon and have everything in our own hands...

Fantastic if you have fallen in love with the game once again. 

I will cross my fingers that you take it home this time mate! What players are your key players?

[giggety]

3 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

I will cross my fingers that you take it home this time mate! What players are your key players?

Thanks!

Always on a tight budget, so I have to loan the top players. Depay, Isak, Merino, F Valverde, Wijndal, Onguene. Zirkzee is great as a sub also, but Isak is great as a TRQ and F9 in this.

[Djuicer]

1 hour ago, giggety said:

Thanks!

Always on a tight budget, so I have to loan the top players. Depay, Isak, Merino, F Valverde, Wijndal, Onguene. Zirkzee is great as a sub also, but Isak is great as a TRQ and F9 in this.

Some talented player there. Me as a swede would like a screen of Isak if he is any good in your save? 
 

Merino and Valverde must be a good midfield duo!

 

and the dutch is great too and Onguene a monster!

[Salsa666]

Why dont you ”roam from position” on the IWs? Will roam from position help with the possession game?

[giggety]

11 hours ago, Djuicer said:

Me as a swede would like a screen of Isak if he is any good in your save? 

Isak was very good, but it was impossible to teach or remove PPMs. 

Edit: As you can see from the Isak screenie, I was offered the United job after finally winning La Liga. We were in the lead for a long time against FCB, but Pogba equalized right at the end, however they lost away against Betis the following round and I one my last two. 

Edited May 12, 2020 by giggety

[Djuicer]

9 hours ago, Salsa666 said:

Why dont you ”roam from position” on the IWs? Will roam from position help with the possession game?

With stay wider and get further forward already selected I was unsure any more instructions would do them any services. Roam from position is a good PI in possession styles and can always be considered. I could have gone with that it just did not happen this time.

29 minutes ago, giggety said:

Isak was very good, but it was impossible to teach or remove PPMs. 

Edit: As you can see from the Isak screenie, I was offered the United job after finally winning La Liga. We were in the lead for a long time against FCB, but Pogba equalized right at the end, however they lost away against Betis the following round and I one my last two. 

Nice, you got the title  the title seems like a nail-biter. And you stole my dream job! any good players still at United?

Isak seems good, especially as a false9. Sad with the PPMs though as some are not optimal for the role.

[Rooney_10]

Hey @Djuicer

Great thread! Really good stuff.

Im just interested how Luka Jovic did for you as a Treq/false 9.

Im currently playing as Leicester, I play 4-3-3 with a mainly possession based formation. Do kind of play similar tactics. I managed to sign Jovic, he was the best striker I could sign by  mile but come to learn that he is not really suited to my style so I'm really struggling with him. Ive tried a few different roles for him and tweaked my tactics but can't get that winning formula. 

Do you have any advice on this? would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Djuicer]

12 minutes ago, Rooney_10 said:

Im just interested how Luka Jovic did for you as a Treq/false 9.

Im currently playing as Leicester, I play 4-3-3 with a mainly possession based formation. Do kind of play similar tactics. I managed to sign Jovic, he was the best striker I could sign by  mile but come to learn that he is not really suited to my style so I'm really struggling with him. Ive tried a few different roles for him and tweaked my tactics but can't get that winning formula. 

Do you have any advice on this? would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Hi. For me he did ok as a TRQ but he was better as an PFa imo. So maybe thats something to try. I did not try him as an CFa. Otherwise as a AF or Poacher due to his strengths is put the ball in the net. Maybe he shall just focus on that? 

 

How do you feel the MEZa is working for you? do it run forward more aggressivly than on support in your opinion? (I did not try attacking for MEZ in my version at any point but it feels it should work in theory, and usally it is making lots of runs on attack)

[Rooney_10]

Thanks, its so frustrating ha. Will try a PFa.

Yes the MEZa works well. Maddison is probably my most creative player getting the most assists. I also have run with ball on the PIs aswell. whenever I use this tactic the player in this role is usually one of my best performers.

[Djuicer]

1 hour ago, Rooney_10 said:

Thanks, its so frustrating ha. Will try a PFa.

Yes the MEZa works well. Maddison is probably my most creative player getting the most assists. I also have run with ball on the PIs aswell. whenever I use this tactic the player in this role is usually one of my best performers.

Please share if Jovic makes more of an impact 

Thats good, how about the defensive aspects? do you feel attack (dutie) is dangerous enough to make up for the supposed slacking off in defence?

[Djuicer]

My current passing network. Feel free to guess the formation 

 

[daveb653]

8 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

My current passing network. Feel free to guess the formation 

 

Narrow 4-3-3 2 shadow strikers, on F9. 

WB in Wb slot, rather than normal FB.

2 Mezz and 1 cm on attack  

[Djuicer]

8 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

Narrow 4-3-3 2 shadow strikers, on F9. 

WB in Wb slot, rather than normal FB.

2 Mezz and 1 cm on attack  

Two roles are correct  7 is SS and 9 F9.

The rest is quite close but just a notch away!

 

[daveb653]

42 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Two roles are correct  7 is SS and 9 F9.

The rest is quite close but just a notch away!

 

6 and 8 cm(s)

10 and 11 IW(s)

2 and 3 WB(s) in FB positions.

Edited May 12, 2020 by daveb653

[Djuicer]

11 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

6 and 8 cm(s)?

 

Its getting warmer but no  

there is no player(s) in the CM strata at all.

[daveb653]

hmmm well in that case id say am(s)

I rubbish at analysis by the way, this could take all day  

[giggety]

3 hours ago, Djuicer said:

My current passing network. Feel free to guess the formation 

 

Here it goes:

1 - SK (A)

4 - BPD (D)
5 - BPD (St)

2 - CWB (S) WB Strata
3 - CWB (S) WB Strata
6 - Volante (A)

8 - Enganche (S)
7 - SS (A)
10 - IW (S)
11 - IW (s)

9 - F9 (S)

?

[Djuicer]

2 hours ago, giggety said:

Here it goes:

1 - SK (A)

4 - BPD (D)
5 - BPD (St)

2 - CWB (S) WB Strata
3 - CWB (S) WB Strata
6 - Volante (A)

8 - Enganche (S)
7 - SS (A)
10 - IW (S)
11 - IW (s)

9 - F9 (S)

?

Haha now its getting closer. Too close almost. You have 6 roles and 4 duties correct. I think we must leave it there to save some suspension!

[drigaco]

Em 12/05/2020 em 10:47, Djuicer disse:

My current passing network. Feel free to guess the formation 

 

What concerns me the most about that image is the distance between the CB and the rest of the team. That has been a problem for a long time, the CB stay too low and not only it affects your offensive play, but it also affects counter pressing. Even if you watch a Liverpool VS City, you see that when the team is attacking their CB push high up which forces the opponent to stay back. Even if you consider the offside rule, no attacker would risk letting 2 CB alone for the sake of taking advantage of the offside rule (the halfway line rule I mean). 

[Djuicer]

Today there will be a round up of the content so far. A brief summary and a presentation of the next step for this project.

*A shorter presentation of teams that have been inspirations for the 4-1-2-3 I made. (PT1/OP)
*Roles used and some of the reasoning behind the roles and duties. (PT 2, 3, 4)
*Analysis of the tactic. (PT5)
*Backroom team, squad and development. (PT6)
*Key concepts such as the Half spaces and Salida Lavolpiana. (PT 3, 4)
*Final version of the tactic (4-1-4-1 wide/4-3-3/4-1-2-3). This will be new content.
*New plans announcement. Also new content.

Titles won were 4. Community shield, Carabao Cup, The Premier League and Champions League. So the conclusion is that you can indeed win a lot with positional play.
 

 

The final version of my 4-3-3 / 4-1-2-3 / 4-1-4-1 Wide. The TI’s are not changed from what that was presented in the OP. Oh well, I removed focus play through the centre. I will only discuss the roles/duties that actually have been changed. Those are the GK, RB, DM, and TRQ. The goalkeeper was changed to sweeper keeper attack, to  really get the best out of Edersons passing range and vision. He is a fantastic quarterback and sure, it will cost us some clean sheets but what passess he delivers every now and then. Do not forget 20 kicking, 18 throwing, 17 passing and vision. 15 First touch and this guy is a keeper.

PI:
Direct passes.

Mentality:
Very Attacking.

RB was the one I was insecure of from the start. This due to Recee James probably being the worst player in the starting 11 and thus possibly a weak link as complete wing back. As a regular wing back (support) James has less responsibilities and therefore can focus more on doing what he is supposed to better.

PI:
Cross less.
Shoot less.

Mentality:
Positive.

DM This change was made due to the removed focus of play. The player was on defend and now he moved up to support. This also removed some locked in PIs, but the part I like most now is the jump the player took in mentality, from balanced to positive. Which has led to him being a bit more risk taking in the buildup play.

PI:
Hold position.

Mentality:
Positive.

The Trequartista is the last role I tinkered with. I actually liked how it moved around the pitch constantly looking for space. Sometimes dropping deep, creating and finishing off chances. Sadly the pressing forward just got me better results which is why I stuck with that role in the end. The PFa offers so much more when we don’t have possession and with roam and more risky passes used it still drifts around and try killer balls.

PI:
Roam from postion.
Take more risk.

Mentality:
Very Attacking.

 

Mentality spread is now this:

Very Attacking (PFa)
Positive (IWFs) - Positive (IWs)
Positive (MEZs) - Positive (RPM)
Positive (CWBs) - Cautious(BPDd) - Cautious (BPDd) - Positive (WBs)
Very Attacking (SKa)

Overwiev:
VA
POS-POS
POS-POS
POS
POS-CAU-CAU-POS
VA

And the former was:

Very Attacking (TRQ.)
Positive (IWFs) - Positive (IWs)
Positive (MEZ) - Positive (RPM)
Balanced (DMd)
Positive (CWBs) - Balanced (BPDd) - Balanced (BPDd) - Positive (CWBs)
Balanced (SKd)

Or the one with the better overview.
VA
POS-POS
POS-POS
BAL
POS-BAL-BAL-POS
BAL

Spoiler

For those interested in the tactic as it stands, I will attach it to this post. Warning though, my team is very very strong with amazing players. It might not work with your team and players.

 

Inspirations for the new tactic will be pretty much the same (stylistically), although I will change the formation. First one out of the new inspiration is the spanish waiter who likes lamps but only got sofas, or was it the other way around? I know he was/is not a true possession based manager but one of the key aspects of Rafa Benitez’s Valencia was that they due to the 4-2-3-1 got a spare man in midfield versus most opposition teams. This had the effect that they rarely lost possession and when they did they always tried to have 9 men behind the ball.

 

Benitez was also according to Michael Cox the first who really defended as a true 4-2-3-1. Arguably there had been teams utilizing the shape in offense before, but they were all 4-4-2 who changed their shape in attack, often having a forward dropping deep. Those teams (Arsenal and Bergkamp under Wenger, Real Madrid and Raul under John Toshack, Manchester United and Cantona under Ferguson) always defended with three lines in the 4-4-2. Benitez Valencia did not, they used four lines and stayed true to the 4-2-3-1. Bergkamp, Raul and Cantona were all forwards who dropped. Benitez used Pablo Aimar who was a true midfielder although an attacking one, Aimar was blessed with a silky touch and fantastic vision. A true south american Enganche of the finest ilk. As a result they had the ball a lot but lacked goals. Still Mista was having the best time of his career. Albelda and Baraja was arguably the best central midfield pairing in the league. Ayala was as good as anyone, although possibly in a small frame. (image from Zonalmarking.net)

 

Second one out is debatable, was it a 4-2-3-1 or something else? Jonathan Wilson argues for the latter, although in Brazil they call it a 4-4-2 diamond. Nevertheless Brazil 07-09 produced some excellent attacking football due to good balance and letting the incredible Kaka dictate most of the offensive plays. Although in Milan Kaka's greatest plays often came when he played more as a runner having Pirlo deeper down dictating play.

 

Dunga calls it a diamond with two carilleros in Ramires and Felipe Melo. Gilberto Silva holding behind and Kaka as the top of the diamond. Mr Wilson on the other hand claims it's a 4-2-3-1 springing from the classical brazilian box formation (4-2-2-2) utilizing a forward dropping deep. In this case Robinho on the left. To accommodate him the two attacking midfielders in the box must adjust and that's why Ramires drifted wider to the right with Kaka staying in the centre. This created questions for opposition, do we mark Robinho on the left? Then who has Kaka? If both were marked it usually opened space for the right tandem of Ramires and the incredible Maicon. Deep down Melo and Gilberto Silva were asked to hold positions to always have menprotecting the back line if the possession was lost. This side was criticized for being a weak brazilian team. Although it produced some special football at its peak. (image from Zonalmarking.net)

 

Spain in 2008 under Vicente Del Bosque also used a formation that resembles the 4-2-3-1. This team was fantastic at keeping the ball and flooded the field with technical, intelligent footballers. Marcos Senna and the central defenders stayed back most of the time but the rest of the team was a fluent moving symbiosis of passes, neat touches and movement. Central to all of this was the Barcelona duo of Xavi and Iniesta, a duo that was almost impossible to depossess. From the start they used both Torres and Villa up front but it was first when Villa was dropped for another midfield wizard in Cesc Fabregas that it all really clicked. Worth a mentioning is that even if Villa was dropped and Torres got the nod as starting striker Villa still won the golden boot at the 2008 Euros. Comparing the two Villa was probably the one with better technical ability but Torres was more raw, stronger and faster. More of a brute force compared to the rest of the attacking players.

 

Width was not something that Iniesta or Silva were merchants at keeping, thus the width often came from energetic Ramosc or the more experienced Joan Capdevila who surged forward regularly from full back positions. (image from Zonalmarking.net)

Maybe the best team we have seen using 4-2-3-1 as the main shape was 12/13 CL winning Bayern Munich. Inspired by both Bielsa and Guardiola, Jupp Heyneckes got his whole team to participate in intense pressing. A pressing that even surpassed the two second only to Klopps Dortmund. One of the biggest achievements Heynckes pulled off was to get both Robben and Ribery to accept this enormous workload. The side was possession based but not extreme to the same degree as Barcelona. There were glimpses of more direct play and the team was definitely more vertical than barca. Bayern had a lot of players capable of hitting the longer pass such as Dante, Schweinsteiger and Martinez. The team used a physical phenomenon up top in Mandzukic. Allegedly so fit that even Felix Magath supposedly was pleased. In this team Neuer often started attacks, probably he was at his peak around those years. Formation often depended on Müllers positional genius, if he was fielded as one in a striker duo or just behind the striker in a 4-2-3-1. (Bayern in red, picture from Zonalmarking.net)

 

Last team out will also be a national team from around the same time. Holland's 2010 world cup team bolstered stars such as Robben (suffering from a hamstring injury), Sneijder, Van der Vaart, Van Nistelrooy and Van Persie. No wonder the dutch was angry with Bert van Marwijk when he focused more at getting clean sheets rather than outscoring the other team. Described very briefly, the plan was to defend vigorously and let Robben, Sneijder and Van Persie do the rest. As an example Nigel de Jong and  Mark van Bommel were selected as the deepest midfielders and Dirk Kuyt got the nod on the right, not the most technically gifted dutch players of this generation. But probably the ones with the most grit and ugly-tricks up their sleeve. This led to creative and adventurous players like van der Vaart and Eliero Elija being left on the bench. (image from Wikipedia)

Keys from Benitez’s Valencia:
*Defensively solid, often defending with 9 men.
*5 True midfielders, no deep dropping forward.
*2 Wingers keeping width (Vicente, Rufete).
*A true magician in Aimar (Enganche).

 

Keys from Dunga’s Brazil:
*Flexible, 4-4-2 diamond or 4-2-3-1 pending on views.
*Forward dropping deep down left for creation of overloads.
*Lots of strong runners. Right side with Ramires and Maicon, endless stamina.
*Kaka was fantastic as a 10.

 

Keys from Del Bosque’s Spain:
*Started as 4-4-2, adapted later to “4-2-3-1”.
*Used a lot of 10s overload central areas.
*Width was generally kept by full backs.
*Xavi was the main playmaker, deeper than the other teams.

 

Keys from Heyncke’s Bayern:
*Flexible 4-4-2 and/or 4-2-3-1. 
*Neuer as sweeper keeper.
*Main threats out wide in Robben and Ribery. 
*Kroos was probably the main conductor.

 

Keys from van Marwijk’s Holland:
*Abandoned the classical dutch 4-3-3 for the (in this case) more rigid 4-2-3-1.
*Two very deep robust no finesse - style holding players.
*With Kuyt down right there was only room for three flair players.
*Sneijder being one, fielded as a trequartista.

 

Is there a pattern here that we can use in Football Manager?
*Defending with numbers
*Getting numerical advantage in midfield
*Overloads
*Two relatively cautious holding players.
*Width on both flanks, either by wingers or full backs.
*4-2-3-1 will be the formation.
*Inspiration will come from all above mentioned teams and more.

I have also found inspiration in This and this.

 

I know a lot of people dislike or claim it's hard to pull off a good 4-2-3-1. Heck, I'm often one of them. That's why this makes the challenge so much more difficult. In theory though there is a lot of potential for JDP in a 4-2-3-1. It has the same amount of triangles as a classic dutch 4-3-3 if set up correctly. Also due to being a relatively front heavy formation have more options to move to ball forward with more urgency than for example the 4-1-2-3. It is also strong in midfield cause of the five players being deployed there. The weaknesses are previously mentioned, the formation is top heavy. Adding to that the attacking four is so far up that full backs probably will have to defend in a lot of 1on1 or at times even 2vs1 situations.

Here I will show a picture taken from holdingmidfield.com

 

Let’s begin trying to implement this. As I stated earlier I will stay true to possession football and positional play principles. I will use two different tactics this time around too but I will also keep the last version of my 4-3-3 (the one with the changes made above). One of the versions will focus on getting the most out of my new crown jewel Kylian Mbappe and the other will use Salida Lavolpiana as a cornerstone, playing out from the back with a dropping midfielder and attacking full backs.

 

This summer I strengthened the team with two major acquisitions. Kylian Mbappe and Matthijs de Ligt. I will show them here for you to get a grip about what I spent around £280M on.

 

First out de Ligt. Fantastic ball playing defender without any weaknesses. Similar to John Stones but with better physique and 6 years younger.

Spoiler

 

Second one, arguably the best player in the world with two Ballon’dor’s, a runner up and a third place. Yet he is only 26 years old. Meet Mbappe.

Spoiler

So, the mentality for the team will be kept to the same setting as before. This to generate the risk and adventourness progressive possession football demands. We want to play on the front foot. This as I mentioned in the OP has some knock on effects.

“Positive mentality leads to knock on effect on a lot of Team Instructions. The following TIs will be altered due to the mentality. 
Width - Increased, We will play wider.
Passing directness - Increased. We will be playing more direct.
Tempo - Increased. We will attack with more urgency.
Defensive line - Higher. We will defend closer to the half line in possession.
Line of engagement - Higher. We will engage the opposition deeper into their side of the pitch,
Press intensity - Increased, We will work harder to regain the ball once the opposition pass the line of engagement.
Risk - Increased. We will take bigger risks with the ball, players will have more creative freedom.”

 

With that in mind we once again will have to alter some Team Instructions or TI. For starters my team will use a total of 9 TI. Let's start with how we defend. We will use a much higher defence line paired with offside traps to get the most out of the much higher line, also to prevent counters from occurring too often. This will also bring the defence closer to the rest of the team. For even greater compactness across the field we will “only” use the higher line of engagement. The pressing urgency will not be altered at this point, but the five (or four) most advanced players will be given personal instructions to close down more. In theory this will create a split block. Making our team having two walls of defence splitted further into four bands of players. 

 

In transitions we will take inspiration from the master of the so-called gegenpress. "Gegenpressing lets you win back the ball nearer to the goal. It's only one pass away from a really good opportunity. No playmaker in the world can be as good as a good gegenpressing situation, and that's why it's so important." Jurgen Klopp.
Counterpress will be used as it is good to regain the ball quickly, at times catching the opposition of guard. The aim is for this to both increase our possession numbers but also to be a tool to launch quick counters.This will not always be used though and from time to time it will be removed. No other instruction will be selected from the scratch.

 

In possession we will try to keep the ball, combine and dictate the tempo of the game. Hence we will use shorter passing. The defenders are excellent with the ball so we will also try to play out of defence to invite the opposition to pressure us high up the field, which hopefully will leave more space for us to take advantage of when we attack. We have pacy, nimble players who probably won’t outmuscle the average premier league defender but they will most likely outrun them so using low crosses is a given. In a possession based system it's important that players are always available for a pass. To give the players freedom to achieve this they are allowed to be more expressive,  due to this increasing the roaming tendencys. Lastly we have 21 players with 14 or more in decisions, to get the most out of the squads fantastic decision making tempo will be set to lower. Which will lead to (according to the game) “Players will be considerate and patient..retaining possession to preserve control of the game”. Or as @Jack Joyce recently stated: Low tempo - patiently wait for an opening in the opposition defence then exploit it.

At this point you don’t know player roles nor exact positions. Some might figure it out from those two gifs. I will start the next post with which roles the five deepest players were assigned to.

Early on but it seems promising:

 

With more tuning hopefully this will occur often!

It seems there at least is potential.

 

Later in another game they also did this.

I think we can call it a day now.

 

(We are off to a good start, exciting times ahead)

Djuicers 4-3-3 JDP FINALmaybe.fmf

Edited May 13, 2020 by Djuicer
The 4-1-4-1 Wide, 4-3-3, 4-1-2-3, 4-1-2-2-1 is now attached.

[Djuicer]

39 minutes ago, drigaco said:

What concerns me the most about that image is the distance between the CB and the rest of the team. That has been a problem for a long time, the CB stay too low and not only it affects your offensive play, but it also affects counter pressing. Even if you watch a Liverpool VS City, you see that when the team is attacking their CB push high up which forces the opponent to stay back. Even if you consider the offside rule, no attacker would risk letting 2 CB alone for the sake of taking advantage of the offside rule (the halfway line rule I mean). 

Thats a good observation. They don't join in the press as the others. However it looks better on the average postions (heat maps) rather than the passing network. Still, would have been nice if they pushed up a bit more! Compactness is king.

[crusadertsar]

Great read mate 

[Djuicer]

47 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Great read mate 

Thanks buddy! 

 

I felt this was an ok goal too. I think enough players is starting to learn play 1-2s now.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Djuicer

[afailed10]

I was gonna say those tactics look rather defensively vulnerable with anything but a world class team but you removed the press much more instructions. I've had success with a relegation favorite team with similar tactics but without the high pressing and less adventurous roles.

Other thing is that compactness can be achieved (or broken) through many ways. Player mentality is one, line of engagement, pressing urgency, player instructions with the ball, etc. So you can look compact on paper but with a player often running with the ball to dead ends may leave the team unbalanced in the defensive transition. Hence teams like pep's Barcelona used possession as a defensive measure as well. Short passes instead of dribbling or speculative passing so it would be easier to recover the ball.

Compactness is not always a good thing especially when you're a big team always on the front foot you want to create vertical and horizontal space to play. Some of the most beautiful teams in history played well spread out such as Arsenal and Galácticos. I personally don't like extremes like tiki taka but rather attacking football with quick, short passes and also a good old cross and header. What is important is that you negate and create space in the right areas. The problem is that the AI is smart and every opponent is different. Sometimes you are Quick to press their DLP but then open up space on the flanks. Or sometimes you are compact but they have 3 players attacking your 2 CBs which eventually will be an issue. That's why it's harder to be consistent in Fm20. If you're a top team however and if you press a lot, you'll be fine 99% of the time.

Nevertheless this is a great thread for people to discuss and learn more about the tactical elements of the game so they are better equiped to build their own systems. Which doesnt need to be a replication of a real life team but more focused on getting the best of the new Wonderkid, for instance.

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by afailed10

[Djuicer]

50 minutes ago, KyleHyde said:

I was gonna say those tactics look rather defensively vulnerable with anything but a world class team but you removed the press much more instructions. I've had success with a relegation favorite team with similar tactics but without the high pressing and less adventurous roles.

Other thing is that compactness can be achieved (or broken) through many ways. Player mentality is one, line of engagement, pressing urgency, player instructions with the ball, etc. So you can look compact on paper but with a player often running with the ball to dead ends may leave the team unbalanced in the defensive transition. Hence teams like pep's Barcelona used possession as a defensive measure as well. Short passes instead of dribbling or speculative passing so it would be easier to recover the ball.

Compactness is not always a good thing especially when you're a big team always on the front foot you want to create vertical and horizontal space to play. Some of the most beautiful teams in history played well spread out such as Arsenal and Galácticos. I personally don't like extremes like tiki taka but rather attacking football with quick, short passes and also a good old cross and header. What is important is that you negate and create space in the right areas. The problem is that the AI is smart and every opponent is different. Sometimes you are Quick to press their DLP but then open up space on the flanks. Or sometimes you are compact but they have 3 players attacking your 2 CBs which eventually will be an issue. That's why it's harder to be consistent in Fm20. If you're a top team however and if you press a lot, you'll be fine 99% of the time.

Nevertheless this is a great thread for people to discuss and learn more about the tactical elements of the game so they are better equiped to build their own systems. Which doesnt need to be a replication of a real life team but more focused on getting the best of the new Wonderkid, for instance.

 

Im not sure which tactic you are talking about. However they are vulerable, but my team is world class. Not sure I agree, Its just 2 roles in the 4-1-2-3 that is above "positive" in its mentality, they will not be overly risk taking. The point of the support roles is to control mentality and risk. At the same time close mentality will create compactness. +Pep always encurages his players to take on op. in the final third.

 

Yeah, thats true. This is about creating a style that resembles tiki-taka though and the best way to do that in the game IMO is to have players close to overload a certain space and then release another player on the op. side. I also try to keep the mantra of using the whole field (5 players with stay wider) and then trying to make it as small as possible for the op. team. At times we will miss in the press, and there will be counters launched versus us, its just what it cost to try to live up to the given presets of positional play. 

 

Thats what its supposed to be all about, giving tools for how to implement ideas from styles and teams that you like, and if you have some one special that you can change around a lot for that player (I have tried to create a rather extreme JDP/Progressive possession style). IE Neymar plays as a APs, the rest as RPM for example.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Djuicer

[afailed10]

1 hour ago, Djuicer said:

Im not sure which tactic you are talking about. However they are vulerable, but my team is world class. Not sure I agree, Its just 2 roles in the 4-1-2-3 that is above "positive" in its mentality, they will not be overly risk taking. The point of the support roles is to control mentality and risk. At the same time close mentality will create compactness. +Pep always encurages his players to take on op. in the final third.

 

Yeah, thats true. This is about creating a style that resembles tiki-taka though and the best way to do that in the game IMO is to have players close to overload a certain space and then release another player on the op. side. I also try to keep the mantra of using the whole field (5 players with stay wider) and then trying to make it as small as possible for the op. team. At times we will miss in the press, and there will be counters launched versus us, its just what it cost to try to live up to the given presets of positional play. 

 

Thats what its supposed to be all about, giving tools for how to implement ideas from styles and teams that you like, and if you have some one special that you can change around a lot for that player (I have tried to create a rather extreme JDP/Progressive possession style). IE Neymar plays as a APs, the rest as RPM for example.

It's just my experience managing very weak teams but playing a simple yet positive passing game. One of the hurdles is to be compact on the flanks as well to avoid the deadly (in fm20) fullback cross. I only found success when i went to default pressing and line of engagement settings so my players didn't leave their position too early. There are other factors of course but player attributes are key. A winger with low teamwork will be a problem against attacking fullbacks. Improving full backs makes a huge difference though. With a world class team like Man City obviously you can get away with pretty much anything so I guess it's more about making the team play how you want them to.