Why this is so random?! So hard?! Advice needed

[flauta kicma]

Hello.

 

I am playing with Napoli, third season, but why this is so hard?

I am doing it by replaying some games (save and load, not to cheat but to see point of some tactic path) and it is so random. Like I change IF to W there is none key chance, next game is ok, than i put little more width it is awfull, then less tempo it is excellent, next game again awfull, there is no confidence in game.

Now dont know what to do!? Like I am in some neverending story where everything I do is so always bad. I am not putting screenshots because there is no need, I am not trying to find particular help, I only need advice in general, why is this happening? How to stop it? When I downlaod someones alse tactics there id consistency but for me it is awfull. It is just not normal when I change like tempo for one notch that I cant creaate any chance

[Justified]

Instructions don't work in isolation. To me it sounds like you're in a leaky boat. You plug one hole and you're opening up another. You're not actually taking a step back and look at a tactic as a whole.

[flauta kicma]

Exactly. But, I mena, I look at some great tactics here, it is very similiar. But it doesnt work :///

[Justified]

Then you're doing something wrong but if you don't want help then I can't help. If you're playing with plug and play tactics you're better off asking advice in the relevant thread 

[DimitrisLar]

1 hour ago, flauta kicma said:

Exactly. But, I mena, I look at some great tactics here, it is very similiar. But it doesnt work :///

look, there 're two kinds of people here. Those who know how they built every piece of their tactic and those, like me and you, who might have an idea but if it works ok, if it doesn't we re quite nervous about how to make things roll. In here you wont find answers if you dont ask for specific help in specific situations with details of what happens to your tactic. Watch a rashidi's video, he can make changes in his tactic and it works cause he knows exactly what he is facing at.

It's like playing LOL, you have to read and watch a lot to be able to say ok im playing top with darius against a teemo. What are you doing if he gets 2 kills in 3 minutes and what if you get him even for 10 minutes or you got the kills? Different situations. What i'm saying is that it's not like i have the same built with items as every other time i won at the end of the game.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

When I downlaod someones alse tactics there id consistency but for me it is awfull. It is just not normal when I change like tempo for one notch that I cant creaate any chance

Those downloaded (plug'n'play) tactics are in most cases the so-called exploit tactics. They are not successful because they make sense - they absolutely do not - but because their creators somehow manage to exploit certain weaknesses of the match engine. So if you create your own tactics based on what those dowloaded/plug'n'play/exploit tactics look like - I fear you are never going to create a sensible tactic that is going to work (at least not on a consistent basis). Unless you manage to do the same thing the "professional" creators of those tactic are doing - exploit the ME.

Anyway, given that you don't want to post a screenshot of your tactic, we can only speculate 

[f.zaarour]

Well i was in your position a bit ago but i feel now that abit of enjoyment is coming back for me in this game. I would say just try the preset tactics. You like tiki taka or gegenpress, fine choose that tactic. From there you always can tweak things abit. Like when you need a goal, 1 click to right at passing or untick play out of defence or WBiB etc. or when you play a big match decrease mentality. And so you see what it does for you. No big worries and just enjoy the game. Going to much into the tactics was abit to much for me. Its nice to create your own etc. but if its not working, creating only more frustrations, ...why continue doing it? 

And using the preset tactics makes for me more sense than those exploit tactics. Its just going wild against the ME without any logic in how you like to play. With the preset it still makes sense as every tactic has a foundation of play style and the from there you can change things abit in your favour. Like the tiki taka is a play i like but sometimes it passes to much so i just bring passing a click to the right and so on. 

[flauta kicma]

Hey guys. Thank you for your input

Yeah it is very annoying. But better than with super tactics in every case.

I didnt attached screenshots because it the big picture is important, not particular save with Napoli. I was looking for advice like "thing is to go through midfield but wide" or "never play with W, only IF", or better is to go with two strikers

I do understand that many of super tactics are unreal, but I need to have some kind of fundament. And now I am just like with rubic cube, there is no chance to have consistancy.

I got sacked at Napoli btw  But started new save. This time with Wolfsburg.

Want to play fast and attacking 442.  And to me is important that my striker have many goals, playing this game from 2000. (paused from 2014. untill now) , and always had fetish for striker scoring. Ideally on through balls and he who collects them into space (altough I know this tactic with Wolfsburg is not to suit that kind of play)

This is my tactic...

( I just I select passing through midfield, because some super tactic have it. I never play like that)

P.S.

Is there really some patterns... Like dont go with solo striker? Or gegen is better than tiki taka? So what are some ideal ways to create tactic for wingers, tactic for narrow play... I know here are many excellent threads.. But... written in essay way, with mix from real life, and it is more litterally strong, than game wise strong.

 

 

Okay.. now I edited it into this

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by flauta kicma

[mp_87]

Well your roles and instructions are just all over the place. As a side point what was the reasoning between changing from the first to second tactic?

Anyway, some of that just straight up conflicts. You're setting up to attack from wide, with Wingers and Wingbacks (who will stand on each others toes in any case) and want your players to run at the opposition, with direct passing/pass into space.... Yet on the other hand you want to work the ball into the box and focus play through the middle with everything going through dual playmakers? It's a mash of styles.

[Chip]

9 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

Okay.. now I edited it into this

 

 

This seems like a common case of over worrying about the way your team is going to play or them doing things you don’t want to see

I think a lot of people want wing play (for example) but are worried that their players will start taking long shots all the time unless they tick “Work ball into box” so they do which then conflicts with the style of play they want and their other instructions. 
 

The same goes with you choosing “focus play down middle”, you’ve said you want wing play but you’ve only chosen this team instruction because you’ve seen it work on the plug & play tactics. 
 

You need to really think about what instructions match with the way you want to play and leave out the ones that contradict this.

 

Also it’s never usually recommended to use 2 playmakers in the midfield right next to each other. I would recommend changing the AP to more of a runner, the BTB was a better choice in the first screenshot you posted - especially for the style you’re trying to achieve. 

[flauta kicma]

Thanks guys. Sole reason why I did it like these is because many of internet posted tactics have option work ball into box, okay I have changed it now, but again with mixed results.

But this is little primitive kind od way, with wingers, direct passing. I wonder how to manage it by short passing attractive play and 442 tactics.... Again, thanks for answers.

And this is my Napoli save, I take old save game because maybe to continue this save is best way to learn it....

So what I am doing wrong? 

(but need to say my results are not bad, I am second in Serie A, last year was third, but again there is no consiostency, only 1:0 wins, and there is save and load, some games I play for 4, 5 times just to see what is ideal way, but than again in next game is awful) 

[flauta kicma]

Now I tweak it into tiki taka. What is wrong? :))

[Justified]

All tactics you've posted are shockingly bad so no wonder you're frustrated. No balance, too many attacking roles leaving you exposed and TI's that are conflicting. What style do you want to play? To me it feels like you've played with Plug and Play tactics that you feel overly aggressive roles and instructions is the way to go. 

[Djuicer]

Start here maybe? 

 

[flauta kicma]

Thanks mate.

@justified

I know, they are bad,. How do i want to play? Fast. Attacking. 

Hm, i have one question.

is is possible it is bad because I want to balance it all out. I mean, maybe it is beter if you want it attacking, put it like that in simple way, etc. 

 

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

 

Okay.. now I edited it into this

 

 

Both tactics basically suffer from the same kind of tactical mistakes:

- a needless number of instructions as well as inconsistency between them

- defensive vulnerability caused by both team instructions and setup of roles/duties (particularly on the right flank/side) 

12 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

Want to play fast and attacking 442

Fast attacking football or counter-attacking football? 

[Experienced Defender]

Also keep in mind the formation you are using. Different types of formations require different tactical considerations. You cannot treat a 442 in the same way as 4123 or 4231 etc. Each has its own characteristics. 

[flauta kicma]

Thank you.  Fast attacking.

 

How would you done it here? Again, it is without consistency...

 

(i know this is anti fast, but I am experimenting)

[Justified]

34 minutes ago, flauta kicma said:

Thanks mate.

@justified

I know, they are bad,. How do i want to play? Fast. Attacking. 

Hm, i have one question.

is is possible it is bad because I want to balance it all out. I mean, maybe it is beter if you want it attacking, put it like that in simple way, etc. 

 

Ok so you have your first two instructions. Positive/Attacking + Higher Tempo. Now the one thing you have to consider is that raising Mentality will automatically raise your tempo/press/DL and LOE/Lengthen Passing so would you play Attacking and Higher Tempo? Hmmm... Might be a bit of an overkill. Positive and Higher Tempo, possibly. If you have the players. If you're Napoli I would say yes, you do. After that you can add as you tweak. But I'd suggest setting a formation and roles first. But do so in a manner that makes sense, not everyone on attacking. Look at your best 3-5 players and what they can do and what they already do (PPM's) and that way you can mould around it. Funnily enough I start from front to back because I have faith I can set a good defence but scoring goals is what wins games, the best a defence can do is draw. So what type of striker do I have? Is he a Vardy type who likes to run in behind and press the backline? Creator? Big Lump? Bit of everything?

[Justified]

4 minutes ago, flauta kicma said:

Thank you.  Fast attacking.

 

How would you done it here? Again, it is without consistency...

 

(i know this is anti fast, but I am experimenting)

Fast Attacking on Much Lower Tempo  Mate, are you actually paying attention?

[Djuicer]

The striker in 4-2-3-1 is almost always best as an attacking duty. Unless you have raumdeter or ss. Otherways there are no space to drop into.
 

PFa and AF are personal favs for the 4-2-3-1

[flauta kicma]

6 minutes ago, Justified said:

Fast Attacking on Much Lower Tempo  Mate, are you actually paying attention?

I know,. But as I said it, this is experiment to have something something like tiki taka, I only said it fast+attacking as my ideal scheme. Thanks for other advices

But what to do with this tiki taka... 0:0, 1:1.. How ot make it go smootly? I am little annoyed by game.. ofc it is easisest to put blame onto game, but I feel it is like I need to know exact formula for jackpot

[Justified]

Nope it's not about hitting a jackpot. None of your systems you've posted are balanced at all. The pre-set's in the game are overly-expressive and are better used to view instructions and take a few tips, not the whole shabang. Read up on the below where Herne explains ALOT of what balancing a Tiki-Taca system is about. Still very applicable in FM20.

 

[mp_87]

You're not experimenting though, that's subtle tweaks to an existing platform and/or with a proper plan in mind.

What you're doing is just clicking any old formation/role/instruction in rapid fashion. To reach what, I'm not sure, as you don't seem to know. Are you trying to stumble on a magic formula to win matches, or achieve a particular playing style?

Slowwwwwww down. In fact I'd suggest just shutting down FM for the moment, doing a bit of reading of various guides to get some idea and knowledge, and getting a pen and piece of paper and jotting down ONE idea about what you want to do (your 4-4-2 ideal?) and what roles/instructions can achieve that.

[flauta kicma]

Both of you are right but still I dont know why I cant beat likes of Cagliari or Spal at home while having this tactic

[mp_87]

6 minutes ago, flauta kicma said:

Both of you are right but still I dont know why I cant beat likes of Cagliari or Spal at home while having this tactic

Well again, it's a bit of mess. What made you choose these roles and these instructions? Or is this more of trying to go through every possible combination until you hit the magic formula?

You're trying to play slow, patient football yet have chosen attacking mentality, which will be telling your players to increase risk and force play at basically every opportunity.

You also want to progress up the pitch patiently, but have a keeper on attack and a BPD, both of which on that mentality will again be trying hit defence splitting passes early on.

Even if Attacking mentality doesn't kill the gameplan, you have overkill by instruction again, trying to force everything slow and very narrow into the same area of the pitch. The IF (s), AM (s), and BBM (s) I'd be fairly confident just stand on each others toes. Going on the instructions and depending on traits etc. and what they do I can see the DLF and other IF ending up in that area of the pitch too. Easy for oppositions to defend when you can throw a blanket over half your team.

I can only say once again, slow down!

[Justified]

Alas I feel like we're not getting through to him so I will leave this. Like mp_87 said, read some guides on how to actually make a tactic or download plug and play. 

[flauta kicma]

Why are you so aggresive? :/

You are getting through me perfectly, and I do appreciate your and everyones else help. But I really believe it is like getting jackpot. I mean, you change one thing, everhing else is messed up, and than again, and again. I believe things could be easier. I mean, it is easier with Napoli to play rubish and not fast and nice football. I tried millions combinatios, always struggling.  Okay, than thing is always with me...

Sure, I could be better. A lot better. But the fact stays - you must hit jackpot.  

 

How is it possible than to play three games for last three hours and always with same pattern, 1:1, 0:0, so every time I select something contradictory? It is just abnormal. To have preset tiki taka and to struggle because one player is for example support and not attacking. Sorry but that is jack pot.

Edited May 1, 2020 by flauta kicma

[flauta kicma]

Key question - is game structured that you can easier make results with gegen than with tiki taka?

 

P.S.

17th time I didnt beat Parma away. With 17th different tactic (every tiki taka based).

[Djuicer]

Noo, thats excuses. You say you listen to the feedback but nothing you type or show's (pictures) tells us that you actually do. Sometimes things work, yes but its no jackpot. Its the result of trial and error and taking in feedback and adapting. Both me and @Justified have given you links to material that if you follow the instructions will give you a balanced and working system.

 

Edit: Gegenpressing is strong in this ME yes, but its also dominant IRL at this time so that seems reasonable.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Djuicer

[flauta kicma]

And I am thankfull fot it. I really am and respect it... But now I just wondering about main premise of game, the things how much did they turn from path from early 00's....

[Justified]

1 minute ago, flauta kicma said:

And I am thankfull fot it. I really am and respect it... But now I just wondering about main premise of game, the things how much did they turn from path from early 00's....

Because this is meant to be a Management Simulator. Most of the tactics back in the day were plug and play which meant you could walk away with a 90% record which just isn't realistic. Sure, there are aspects of the match engine I don't like which could improve but that has nothing to do with fact that you're chucking loads of tactics into a one off game with none of your players being trained on it. Managers IRL don't go "Well hey guys I know we've been training wing play and getting the ball into the box via crossing all week but y'know what, let's try slow tempo possession today." Just doesn't work that way.

I'm sorry if it's coming across aggressive but you posted a thread, first stating you didn't want help but then when we ask if we can you throw loads of tactics up claiming you're save scumming one match you can't win. We've given you links to guides so the right response would've been "Y'know what, I've read the guides, I've made this, what do you think?". 

[flauta kicma]

Yeah, understand you. Dont worry, "aggresive" was wrong word  everything is ok... 

I know I sound strange, like didnt want help and so on, thing is I only wanted like some general advices. But okay, you all still helped me with these. Going to try 19th time versus parma

[Hilly1979]

6 hours ago, Chip said:

This seems like a common case of over worrying about the way your team is going to play or them doing things you don’t want to see

I think a lot of people want wing play (for example) but are worried that their players will start taking long shots all the time unless they tick “Work ball into box” so they do which then conflicts with the style of play they want and their other instructions. 
 

The same goes with you choosing “focus play down middle”, you’ve said you want wing play but you’ve only chosen this team instruction because you’ve seen it work on the plug & play tactics. 
 

You need to really think about what instructions match with the way you want to play and leave out the ones that contradict this.

 

Also it’s never usually recommended to use 2 playmakers in the midfield right next to each other. I would recommend changing the AP to more of a runner, the BTB was a better choice in the first screenshot you posted - especially for the style you’re trying to achieve. 

It’s not to say that using 2 playmakers can not work though, with the correct roles and duties around them it certainly can.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, flauta kicma said:

Key question - is game structured that you can easier make results with gegen than with tiki taka?

Neither. In fact, most preset tactics are poorly designed, simply because they are overcomplicated and full of overkill.

Conversely, best tactics are usually very simple. Just a balanced setup of roles and duties and a few basic instructions. And that's all.

Of course, you always need to take your players' strengths and weaknesses into account when creating a tactic. A tactic that works great for one team may prove a complete failure for another. You cannot play the same style of football with Liverpool or City on one hand and with Brighton or Burnley on the other (with all due respect for the latter clubs). 

[sporadicsmiles]

10 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

Both of you are right but still I dont know why I cant beat likes of Cagliari or Spal at home while having this tactic

It is hard to see what you are going for here. You have an attacking mentality, but you are then using TIs to move away from that attacking identity. You have a much lower tempo, and instructions that tell you team to attack slowly and ignore the flanks. It honestly does not make much sense. 

Here it is probably best to state a list of the things you really want your tactic to do. And then we can try to build it from there. 

There are some questions you should ask yourself. Who is supposed to create your chances? How do you want those chances to be created? Who is supposed to score those chances? There are the basic questions you should ask yourself when looking to build the attacking phase of your tactics. This will determine who gets what role. Right now some of these are not clearly defined. You probably want the left winger and striker to score. But who is creating for them? How are they creating for them? 

Let me explain how I see your tactic working. You are creating space between defence and midfield with the way the AMC and STC are set up here. One goes forward when you are attacking, the other stays deep. This is good, you have attacking shape and meaning. But who is exploiting that space? Perhaps the BBM, but when you face defensive sides he has little room to make passes. Especially because your build up is slow, so the opposition can get into their defensive shape. You create a natural overlap on the right, so the WB(A) there will generate crosses. Which should be dangerous with your setup, so goals can come from here. But who else is creating? You are not using the space you create, and so a significant part of your tactic is missing. 

The first thing to do is ask yourself why every single "in possession" instruction is there. If you do not have a compelling reason, get rid of it and see what happens. In your case the fact that you use instructions to lessen the influence of an attacking mentality tells me you do not want an attacking mentality at all. You could use a balanced mentality without the passing and tempo instructions and  get similar football. So I would do that. More TIs means more complications, and complication can be bad. Work ball into box also falls into this category. Define what you want to do first, and then you find the simplest way to do that. 

After you have an idea of what I said above, the rest of the team falls into place. If a player is not creating or scoring, they are supporting your play. Or to put it another way they are either creating space for someone, or acting as a passing outlet to keep the ball. Think about how you can overload areas of the pitch to make space elsewhere. Wingers you want to put 1v1 (whatever role they have), with a passing outlet if things are not working. This sort of thinking defines the roles for your attacking shape. There are so many ways to do this, so think about it and come up with an answer. We will tell you what we think, and the criticism is aimed to make you understand better why such an idea is bad or good. So you (and everyone reading) can learn. 

Defensively, you just need to think about what happens when you lose the ball (if you are mostly attacking). Where is there space? Can your players cover that space long enough that everyone else is back in position? Are you seeing specific patterns leading to you conceding goals? How can you stop that? From what I read this is less an issue against smaller teams, but you can consider it against bigger teams. 

 

[flauta kicma]

Thank you for your input and effort, this is really awesome.

I know I maybe dont know what I want but thing is I am so frustrated. Just deleted game with Napoli, when was winning on Knap tactics, dont want it like that. Now I am goona read materials, but before that one more screenshot. Is this just so bad that I have 1 win in 5 games?!

That is driving me crazy, I mean... really that bed? How come accidentaly I cant make decent tactic. That is thing I blame little bit onto the game, the best sports game is when you learn fast and master it with knowledge and experience. And initial learning here is so hard, margin for error is huge, that is why I was talking about jack pot. So what can I do if I dont want plug and play tactics? Go back to CM 01/02) :/ 

(forgot about this lower engagement, selected it minute before taking screenshot.. also I had version with only one W on attack mode)

Edited May 2, 2020 by flauta kicma

[Hilly1979]

The main problem with the above tactic is both the central defenders on a Stopper duty, which will lead to leaving space in behind.

If one is on a stopper duty the other needs to have a cover duty or at least a defend duty (but cover would be advisable) to cover for the stopper when he steps forward.

And why both set as ball players?

[Djuicer]

As @Hilly1979 stated the defence is not good.

 

Something I would consider too is the width. 4-4-2 is naturally a wide fortmation, using 2 wingers, a wing back and a full back will certainly be enough. I would remove play wider.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Djuicer

[flauta kicma]

Is this any better? Simple as it can be...

[Hilly1979]

Roles and duties are more balanced but what’s with all the team instructions again? Far from as simple as can be........

Can I ask a question? People feel free to shoot me down........ but is this a serious thread and genuinely asking for help or a bit of a wind up?

It just seems when we try and help you by making a couple of subtle changes you go and add a load of instructions on top.

May just be me.........

[flauta kicma]

Sorry I put wrong screenshots haha

I know that I sounded crazy with last screenshot

can BBM be mezala?

generaly is selecting work ball into box contradictory with ball into space?

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by flauta kicma

[Hilly1979]

My best bit of advice now that you have got a balanced (ish) set of roles and duties is remove all team instructions and watch a game, if you see that your team is not doing what you want (whatever that is) then add the appropriate instruction.

If you find that you are adding quite a few instructions then I would suggest you have got the wrong roles and duties set.

Not suggesting that you blindly follow me as I’m no tactical genius but I’ve always played on balanced mentality with a balanced set up of rules and duties and the only team instruction I tend to start with is play out of defence as this is the only instruction to my players which is non negotiable but if I see I’m getting pressed a lot and giving the ball away I will remove it, I will then add instructions as I go if I spot a weakness etc.

As I say I am not a tactical genius but by keeping things simple I’ve always found success, I guess I know my limitations. A lot of the tactical gurus here will get away with many team instructions as they know exactly how to implement them and yes they will produce some wonderful and exciting football but if you don’t fully understand the workings of each instruction this can be dangerous.

Hope this helps.

[Justified]

tbf you are getting closer with that last SS. But ask yourself this, why overlap left when the WB is on attack already? That's what an overkill is. You already have set up a natural overlap with the roles on the left so why are you selecting it as a TI?

With WBIB and PIS I wouldn't say contradictory as it can be that you pass into space in the build up. However I would use PIS a situational instruction. If there is no space to pass into (opposition playing deep and defensive) then what space will there be to pass into?

[flauta kicma]

Thanks you both guys.

 

So some kind of a recipe is to start with less and than build (like xpeirmenting at home games, cup matches) and see how the game will react? I mean, like the game itself better recognize that principle? So only to adjust some basic stuff and roles....

[Hilly1979]

That’s it start simple, watch games and see what you need to change as you go, you may need to add things you may not. 
 
This advice is not going to get you playing some amazing tika Taka gagen whatever  football just foundations to build from which should stand you in good stead and gain an understanding.

 

[Djuicer]

Right now Im thinking you are a troll. Anyhow I will give this one last attempt.

 

save pre any game. Pick a formation with roles that are quite basic, like the 4-4-2 you showed last. Remove all Ti. Remove all Pi. Set mentality to balanced.
 

play the game. 
 

reload the same game, add 1 ti.

what happens? What do you see that the ti does? Write this down.

 

reload again, add the first ti and one more. What do you see now? Does two ti make Your team do anything diffrent than with 1 or 0? Write this down.

 

reload again, now try three ti.

 

its important you face the same team, hence the reloading. Do this around 5-10 times soo you can see what every change does in the same context.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Djuicer

[flauta kicma]

Not an troll :/

 

Yeah, I can try with that. I am already struggling with this near empty tactic with Valencia so best to play some games in a row

[Justified]

48 minutes ago, flauta kicma said:

Not an troll :/

 

Yeah, I can try with that. I am already struggling with this near empty tactic with Valencia so best to play some games in a row

When you say near empty, what does it actually look like?

[Hilly1979]

8 minutes ago, Justified said:

When you say near empty, what does it actually look like?

Probably 999 team instructions coupled with 56 different player instructions and 7 attacking duties 🤷‍♂️