Help with this 4-1-2-3 tactic

[namlas]

I've been using this tactic in my Arsenal save for awhile now and the results have been pretty lukewarm. I've qualified for the Champions league (perform really bad when i qualify) 2 out of the 3 seasons that I've played and the only time I've won silverware was in my first season where i won the Europa league which tbh was very lucky.

In midfield I play with 3 playmakers,  2 DPL's  (DM always being on a defend) and a RPM/AP and i was wondering if there are any drawbacks to this. I've also recently bought Sancho and play him as an IF however he simply is not playing well averaging a 6.7 would love any feedback to fix this issue.

attacking tactic use this pretty much all the time: any feedback regarding my setup would be lovely 

counterattacking tactic use rarely usually against teams like PSG

And lastly I've been scoring a lot of the same goals eg. IFS scoring headers from crosses, goals from set pieces rebounds and i was wondering if this was the fault of the match engine or something linked to the way i set up my team. I would love any feedback please as i truly believe that i should easily be challenging for everything with the talent i have at my disposal.

[Hilly1979]

My first question would be why have you chosen the cautious mentality? Because with the additional team instructions you’ve selected you’ve almost bumped the mentality up to what would be balanced settings.

3 playmakers seems a bit of an overkill to me, I’ve had success with 2 in that formation but never even thought of 3, what is your thinking behind this?

[namlas]

I usually use the cautious tactic against teams that are much better than me. Whenever i play superior teams and use  a low defensive line or generally negative conservative tactics i usually suffer so this underdog tactic is essentially a more conservative version of my attacking tactic. My main focus was to instruct my players to regroup rather than counter press which is totally different to my attack tactic which is aggressive geggenpress.

As for the playmakers i play with 2 DPL's in theory for more control however, im not sure if its working. The DM would be on defense duty essentially holding back while the second DPL in a midfield 2 would be on support free to roam.  I would often  use a mezzala on attack duty(dont really understand what the mezzala does and  it wasn't working)  before i started using a RPM/AP for a more box to box like presence.

Edited May 3, 2020 by namlas
further clarification

[Hilly1979]

But with your additional team instructions it's no longer cautious, your bumping it up. 

If you want to play cautious I would remove higher tempo, higher line of engagement and higher defensive line, the last 2 instructions in particular are not cautious.

A DLP will never roam, it has hold position set by default and can't be changed.

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Hilly1979

[namlas]

always thought that DLP's roamed a bit with the support duty thanks for the info. Regarding the attacking setup what do you think of me replacing the second DLP (DLP With support duty) with a box to box midfielder. How much would that impact my midfield defensively and also in the attacking sense.

[Hilly1979]

That role would make more sense if it is an additional roamer alongside the RPM your looking for, nothing wrong with that of course as you have a holder sitting behind.

I would look at your team instructions though as they contradict the cautious mentality your looking for.

In this formation I would be more tempted to use a support duty in your striker position to avoid getting isolated and also may work nicely with creating space for your attacking inside forward to run into, but not knowing Haalands stats and ppm's  I'm not sure whether he can play in a supporting role.

[namlas]

Haaland likes to play on the last man but hes so good you can fit him anywhere, might try him out as a pressing forward.

Off topic but what positional roles are naturally incompatible, like roles that you dont want paired? and ones that are compatible? 

[Hilly1979]

The best advice I could give you is to have a look at the pairs and combinations thread on this forum, this is an excellent thread giving the best ways to get a balanced tactic working, it has really helped me and I guess many others too.

[Experienced Defender]

On 03/05/2020 at 09:19, namlas said:

In midfield I play with 3 playmakers

The first obvious mistake. 

 

On 03/05/2020 at 09:19, namlas said:

and i was wondering if there are any drawbacks to this

Yes. It's a typical example of tactical overkill. Even 2 PMs is usually too much when they are played close to each other, let alone 3. I mean, it should be obvious that having an entire midfield consisting exclusively of playmaker roles is highly problematic. 

 

On 03/05/2020 at 09:19, namlas said:

On 03/05/2020 at 09:19, namlas said:

counterattacking tactic use rarely usually against teams like PSG

Sorry, but that's not a counter-attacking tactic. A mere switch of the mentality from Attacking to Cautious - or from a higher to a lower one in any combination - neither makes your tactic counter-attacking nor defensively solid (which btw is an essential element of any counter-attacking or otherwise defensive-minded tactic). 

 

On 03/05/2020 at 09:19, namlas said:

attacking tactic use this pretty much all the time: any feedback regarding my setup would be lovely 

Is any of your 3 midfielders capable of playing a holding or covering role (one that either directly guards the defense or provides defensive cover for more attack-minded teammates/roles)? Or are they all just creative and technically gifted, but totally useless defensively? In case of the latter, I fear no advice is going to be good enough. 

[namlas]

Ive taken onboard the feedback regarding playing with 3 playmakers, my initial thought was to use it as a means for positive ball retention but i see now the obvious flaws. I now play with only 2 playmakers in a 3 man midfield: DM-DLP(D) CM-BBM and CM-RPM. I instantly saw results as i submitted this post halfway thorough the season and by the end of the season i won the champions league  however only finishing sixth in the league unfortunately.

ATTACKING TACTIC-find it hard to get the wingers involved but still the results are decent

CAUTIOUS TACTIC: I have exclusively used this in the champions league especially against sides like Liverpool and PSG. 

[namlas]

8 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 Sorry, but that's not a counter-attacking tactic. A mere switch of the mentality from Attacking to Cautious - or from a higher to a lower one in any combination - neither makes your tactic counter-attacking nor defensively solid (which btw is an essential element of any counter-attacking or otherwise defensive-minded tactic). 

for my counter attacking tactic ive replaced the third playmaker with a BWM on support duty. i personally think my cautious tactic fits perfectly with a counter attacking style of football especially with the team instructions that are conservative in nature and anti pressing. But feel free to give me more feedback as admittly my football knowledge and tactical understanding of the game is not where i want it to be.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, namlas said:

i personally think my cautious tactic fits perfectly with a counter attacking style of football especially with the team instructions that are conservative in nature and anti pressing

First off, the cautious (or any other low-risk) team mentality has very little (if anything) to do with the counter-attacking style of defensive football. To the contrary, counter-attacking styles work better and more smoothly under a bit higher mentality (Balanced or Positive), because higher mentalities encourage proportionally faster attacking transitions. Defensive solidity is not a function of a (low) team mentality but a good level of compactness in defense (D-line/LOE combo) and the right balance in the setup of your roles and duties. That's where people usually make a big mistake - misunderstanding what the mentality is actually about. 

 

3 hours ago, namlas said:

But feel free to give me more feedback as admittly my football knowledge and tactical understanding of the game is not where i want it to be

Okay, I'll gladly do, but we first need to set your main (non-counter) tactic right. Once that main tactic is sorted out, we can easily do some small tweaks to make it a bit more defensive and counter-attackish when needed (without changing the mentality  ). 

I'll get back later to give you more feedback on that.

[namlas]

thanks that's really insightful, always assumed cautious and defensive menatlities were directly linked to counterattacking football. 

[Experienced Defender]

26 minutes ago, namlas said:

always assumed cautious and defensive menatlities were directly linked to counterattacking football

You are far from being the only person to assume so, but to be honest - the in-game description of mentalities largely contributes to this kind of confusion.