Tactics confusion loe and def line

[Thunderthump]

I've played fm19 for a while now and tried and failed with many tactics whilst being successful with a few. 

My made question here is how much does defensive line and line of engagement relate to your formation? Does a flat 442 require a different set up to a 4141? And would a more compact loe and defline mean you should set your pressing intensity to less? 

I'm playing with parma at the moment and in 3rd season with loads of signings. I'm sitting in  1st place but my tactics are starting to get beat. Even with in game changes to tempo, width etc. I'm going to try a new formation and was wondering how it works with taking the above into consideration. I'm playing 4141 wide and the moment but wanted to try a 442. 

[GianniM]

I think LOE is more related to the type of football you want to play. If you want to play a counter-attacking style, you'd probably want a lower LOE as to win the ball back deep and quickly making a long pass to your forwards, using it to your advantage that the opposition is mostly on your half. 

At the same time a higher LOE is more suited to a more possession oriented style, because you want to win the ball back as quickly as possible and not let the opposition have the ball for too long. You'd probably want a more top-heavy formation here as to have enough players upfield to pull this off. 

Being more compact I'd probably opt for more pressing, as you have the compactness to have more players near the ball and marking opposition players that would be passing options. Pressing more intensely while being spread out will make your players run after the ball without much effect because the distances are too big. 

Good question, writing this out helped me understand it better myself 

[SixPointer]

I have been toying with the LOE as I try to make a man oriented pressing system. The LOE purely sets where the team will initiate the press. is how I interpreted it. With the pressing intensity setting how aggressive they would press once they opposition enters the LOE. 

[Thunderthump]

Thanks for the reply Gianni. 

In my mind that's how i thought and currently think too, however I've been wondering if for example you play with a flat midfield that's more suitable for a higher line, or if you play with a dm'er it's worth dropping the line back further to allow space between your midfield and defenders? Also does mentality effect it too? For example if your defensive line is high and your on attack your defenders will be more prone to risky tackles at half way? 

These are just my thoughts been playing for ages and keep getting stuck when playing champions league games against really strong opposition or the back end of the season when I need wins and teams are just parking the bus and countering with deadly attacks 

[zyfon5]

the LOE is the space u will give the opposition before ur team will initiate the press to try to win the ball back. hence the LOE is related to where u want to win the ball back. if u want to win the ball back deep in your own half then u should put a lower LOE and vice versa. the defensive line is then adjusted based on the LOE. if ur defensive line is not compact enough with ur LOE the opponent will have an easier time playing into the space between ur initial press and your defensive line. also please note that the defensive line will adjust itself constantly throughout the match as your opponents progress the ball into different regions of the pitch so the defensive line u choose at the tactics screen is a relative position and not the definitive position u will see throughout the match. pressing intensity is self explanatory. u press less the ball carrier will have more time and space on the ball, u press more the space runners will have more time and space. pressing intensity depends on who u want to give space to the ball carrier or the players that are going to receive the ball.

[Thunderthump]

Thanks for the advice every one 

 

 

[daveb653]

My confusion comes with setting up defline/loe and mentality. 

I know how I want to play, i have 3 tactics using the same formation with different roles. 1 attacking, 1 balanced and 1 cautious mentality. 

Now my attacking mentality is for playing at home or against vastly inferior teams, but heres where I struggle, I want to win the ball back relatively high up the pitch so my def line is higher (not much higher) whilst my, LOE is set to lower as I have 2 strikers that I want to run into the space left, does this make sense and will it work? my team pressing intensity is left at the default setting and my team is told to regroup rather than counter press as I want my strikers ready to hit the space left, is this right? Although my 4 most attacking players are told to close down more so when the opposition hit the LOE they get closed down asap.

 

I hope this makes sense and Im on the right lines.

[Robson 07]

1 hour ago, daveb653 said:

Now my attacking mentality is for playing at home or against vastly inferior teams, but heres where I struggle, I want to win the ball back relatively high up the pitch so my def line is higher (not much higher) whilst my, LOE is set to lower as I have 2 strikers that I want to run into the space left, does this make sense and will it work? my team pressing intensity is left at the default setting and my team is told to regroup rather than counter press as I want my strikers ready to hit the space left, is this right? Although my 4 most attacking players are told to close down more so when the opposition hit the LOE they get closed down asap.

 

I hope this makes sense and Im on the right lines.

The opposition may have some difficulty in playing their way out.  However yo may be affording the oppo defenders and even deep lying playmakers time on the ball before closed down.  Occasionally someone will find enough time to pick a hopeful ball behind that high line for someone to chase.   The plan isn't necessarily wrong but equally is not flawless either.

[Snorks]

If you are trying to win the ball back higher up the pitch, that;s where your LoE should be set.  With an Attacking mentality, this puts your forward players on the front foot, pressing and harrying the oppo's defense into making mistakes.

A lower LoE and your front players will drop back a little deeper and allow the oppo to play out with less pressure. 

Your DL is the 'line' at which you don;t want to allow the opposition past. Do you want to defend the 18yd box, or defend your own half of the pitch?

 

So, if you want to draw the opposition out to open up space for you to attack into, set a lower LoE, if you want to pin them into their own half, a higher LoE and higher DL and press hard.

Remember as well, the space between your DL and LoE can impact the way you attack - the further apart they are set, the further apart your players can end up when you do win the ball. Which will tend to longer balls forward. For a shorter passing game, keeping the two lines closer together will keep the players a bit tighter vertically as well.

 

[daveb653]

7 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

The opposition may have some difficulty in playing their way out.  However yo may be affording the oppo defenders and even deep lying playmakers time on the ball before closed down.  Occasionally someone will find enough time to pick a hopeful ball behind that high line for someone to chase.   The plan isn't necessarily wrong but equally is not flawless either.

Yeah exactly, its a little confusing, i've been trying (with limited success) to get a front 3 of F9, SS and poacher to work. so i wanted enough space behind there defence for the ss and poacher to exploit, there both really quick. I'm also using split block with my front 3 and my most attacking midfielder, however my team pressing urgency is only only set to the default for balanced/positive mentality and I've told my players to regroup (not sure about this shout) so maybe I need to increase team pressing and add counter to ensure when they hit the LOE they are aggressively pressed?

6 hours ago, Snorks said:

If you are trying to win the ball back higher up the pitch, that;s where your LoE should be set.  With an Attacking mentality, this puts your forward players on the front foot, pressing and harrying the oppo's defense into making mistakes.

A lower LoE and your front players will drop back a little deeper and allow the oppo to play out with less pressure. 

Your DL is the 'line' at which you don;t want to allow the opposition past. Do you want to defend the 18yd box, or defend your own half of the pitch?

 

So, if you want to draw the opposition out to open up space for you to attack into, set a lower LoE, if you want to pin them into their own half, a higher LoE and higher DL and press hard.

Remember as well, the space between your DL and LoE can impact the way you attack - the further apart they are set, the further apart your players can end up when you do win the ball. Which will tend to longer balls forward. For a shorter passing game, keeping the two lines closer together will keep the players a bit tighter vertically as well.

 

This is the idea, give my poacher and SS space to exploit. If I adopy a higher line and LOE would higher team pressing and counter-press be good shouts? Does counter-press activate as soon as the ball is lost? If so would regroup be better? The way I see regroup is my players work hard to get back behind the LOE before the pressing the opponent?

  My players have also become somewhat lazy, last few games they've been caught on the ball and we've been countered, now the teams didn't score but this annoys me.

[Thunderthump]

10 hours ago, daveb653 said:

My confusion comes with setting up defline/loe and mentality. 

I know how I want to play, i have 3 tactics using the same formation with different roles. 1 attacking, 1 balanced and 1 cautious mentality. 

Now my attacking mentality is for playing at home or against vastly inferior teams, but heres where I struggle, I want to win the ball back relatively high up the pitch so my def line is higher (not much higher) whilst my, LOE is set to lower as I have 2 strikers that I want to run into the space left, does this make sense and will it work? my team pressing intensity is left at the default setting and my team is told to regroup rather than counter press as I want my strikers ready to hit the space left, is this right? Although my 4 most attacking players are told to close down more so when the opposition hit the LOE they get closed down asap.

 

I hope this makes sense and Im on the right lines.

It makes sense in a way to me.

In my most recent save and the one that my question comes from is that I play with a 41221 wide. I started the season with the idea I'd pick my team instructions that directly related to my players. I ended up with a deep defensive line (slow defenders, good headers) and a high line of engagement ( fast strikers and a natural pressing forward) and it's worked really well. Beat man city and bayern Munich in champions league group stages. 

It works neither as an attacking tactic nor defensive. So it can work and does work but I think you need the players for it.

For me the three tactic slots should all be the same mentality. But with different loe and def line as this will alter your rhe least 

[daveb653]

5 minutes ago, Thunderthump said:

It makes sense in a way to me.

In my most recent save and the one that my question comes from is that I play with a 41221 wide. I started the season with the idea I'd pick my team instructions that directly related to my players. I ended up with a deep defensive line (slow defenders, good headers) and a high line of engagement ( fast strikers and a natural pressing forward) and it's worked really well. Beat man city and bayern Munich in champions league group stages. 

It works neither as an attacking tactic nor defensive. So it can work and does work but I think you need the players for it.

For me the three tactic slots should all be the same mentality. But with different loe and def line as this will alter your rhe least 

Yeah hat makes sense also @Thunderthump, my idea was the opposite, same tactic, roughly same LOE/Def line as in it would naturally change as the mentality changed, but different emphasis on pressing and passing etc. Maybe yours makes a little more sense now I think about it. Could just change some roles or duties to be more attacking/more possession based etc.

 

[Thunderthump]

@daveb653 

 

Would be interesting to see how your tactic works out. It's ever changing for me on my save most seasons I end up with a different tactic by the end of the last game. Good luck.

[Snorks]

If you want the space to be created behind the opposition defense then you need to let them play out and step up a bit - so a lower LoE and lower LoD. Otherwise, you risk pinning them back against their own 18yd line.

The Counter-press does mean your players will try and win the ball back as soon as it is lost, so if  I am reading you correctly, I would possibly try it without the CP or Regroup selected and see if that opens a bit of space, OR go straight to Regroup to allow the opposition to play out to half-wayish giving you space behind to exploit. Key would be to lower the LoE so you are not pressing too high and restricting the space you want to create.

 

So the higher you are trying to win the ball, the deeper your opponents will be, the less space there will be for you to exploit as the play will become compressed into a smaller area of the pitch.

 

Dropping back (LoD) and allowing them time to play forward into midfield (LoE) will leave space behind the defense, and between their midfield and defense for you to use when you win the ball back around half-way or just inside your own half.

[Thunderthump]

I noticed some thing last night that I didn't know happens. When your loe is lowered your players pressing urgency is dropped in the familiarity bars. For example with a low or lower line of engagement your players in the attacking midfield slots of your formation maybe be using a lower urgency press than you have selected overall for your team. Which is some thing i have noticed when watching games. I have been for a while trying to replicate a mourinho 41221 or a 4141 wide. If I drop my loe to low or even lower by attacking forwards seem slow and often I get trapped in my half wheres when they are on standard or higher they track back more and pressure more in my half. Which is kind of counter to how Imagined it would work