3-5-2/5-3-2 advice

[OrientTillIDie]

I feel like I’ve posted a lot here recently but I value all of your advice on here so here goes...

I’m seven seasons in to a save, in the Championship now and have a built a good squad of technically proficient, fit footballers. I’ve got here using a 3-5-2/5-3-2 that looks like this:

                          TMs   AFa

               BWMs    DLPs     BBMs

WBa                                                 WBa

                CDd       CDd      CDd

                                SKs

 

Mentality is Positive.

TIs are Play out of Defence, Lower Tempo, Counter Press, Counter, Higher LOE and Defensive Line.

I’ve also got the BBM on Get Further Forward.

Defensively I’m really sound, the wing backs are sensational and my Target Man is my top scorer every season without fail so they’re kind of non-negotiables in an ideal world. I know the Target Man seems counter intuitive in a possession system but I’ve tried other roles and they just don’t work.

My question is this - while this has worked relatively well for me (two promotions so far), I’m currently struggling a bit with the midfield. Is another BBM instead of the BWM a reasonable change or would that likely leave me exposed? If I do that, should I change the DLP to Defend or move him to the DM strata but keep him on Support? Like I said, my midfield particularly are very good technically because obviously I need that in my possession system but they are also good runners which is needed for the Counter Press. 

Normally I’d just give this a go during the preseason but I’m currently in February and the league is tight so theoretically I can still get relegated or make the playoffs so a couple of tweaks could be the difference. Thanks in advance.

[TheGoodRebel]

Me personally, I would switch that BWM to a Mezzala with a Support duty. The Mezzala still likes to put his foot in to a challenge but he does it slightly higher up the pitch, plus he contributes to scoring goals from outside the box. I think it's my favourite central midfield role to be honest.

[GianniM]

IMO Play out of defence and lower tempo don't fit with Counter TI, because your forwards will run forward before the ball can reach them. So I'd remove the Counter TI. And with a higher LOD, offside trap might be a good idea. 

[OrientTillIDie]

8 minutes ago, TheGoodRebel said:

Me personally, I would switch that BWM to a Mezzala with a Support duty. The Mezzala still likes to put his foot in to a challenge but he does it slightly higher up the pitch, plus he contributes to scoring goals from outside the box. I think it's my favourite central midfield role to be honest.

It’s honestly a role I’ve never really used but I’ll give it a go. Thanks for the tip. Does it matter the footedness of the player in that role? I

[Britrock]

Switch the DLPs to a roaming playmaker, he'll get further forward and be more involved in attacking moves. Maybe bump the tempo back up to standard as well so the attack is more incisive.

[GianniM]

Also bear in mind that a possession tactic might work for you in a lower league, but after being promoted to a higher league you're likely to be a less quality side comparatively so you might want to be more direct. 

[OrientTillIDie]

1 minute ago, GianniM said:

IMO Play out of defence and lower tempo don't fit with Counter TI, because your forwards will run forward before the ball can reach them. So I'd remove the Counter TI. And with a higher LOD, offside trap might be a good idea. 

Yeah that was my initial thought about the tempo and countering. When I first set the tactic up, I didn’t have counter ticked and, while it was an effective tactic, there were times when I had an opportunity to break but it didn’t happen because a player put his foot on the ball and slowed it all down. I put Counter on for a few games as an experiment and it changed everything. Not only was I keeping possession well but I was also breaking at will by slicing the opposition up with really slick passing. I’ve tried taking it off but it doesn’t seem to work as well. I might try taking it off again in my next preseason.

[OrientTillIDie]

3 minutes ago, GianniM said:

Also bear in mind that a possession tactic might work for you in a lower league, but after being promoted to a higher league you're likely to be a less quality side comparatively so you might want to be more direct. 

I should have specified that I’ve been in the Championship for a few seasons now and have one of the best passing units in the league. Sorry for not pointing that out earlier.

[summatsupeer]

34 minutes ago, OrientTillIDie said:

My question is this - while this has worked relatively well for me (two promotions so far), I’m currently struggling a bit with the midfield. Is another BBM instead of the BWM a reasonable change or would that likely leave me exposed? If I do that, should I change the DLP to Defend or move him to the DM strata but keep him on Support? Like I said, my midfield particularly are very good technically because obviously I need that in my possession system but they are also good runners which is needed for the Counter Press. 

The simplest thing i'd try is just swap the BBM and BWM.  Hopefully the BBM will get up around/past the TM-Su more often than the BWM did.

If it doesn't have the effect you want then i'd look at more dramatic changes.

[GianniM]

24 minutes ago, OrientTillIDie said:

Yeah that was my initial thought about the tempo and countering. When I first set the tactic up, I didn’t have counter ticked and, while it was an effective tactic, there were times when I had an opportunity to break but it didn’t happen because a player put his foot on the ball and slowed it all down. I put Counter on for a few games as an experiment and it changed everything. Not only was I keeping possession well but I was also breaking at will by slicing the opposition up with really slick passing. I’ve tried taking it off but it doesn’t seem to work as well. I might try taking it off again in my next preseason.

Well if it works, why change it 

[OrientTillIDie]

10 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

The simplest thing i'd try is just swap the BBM and BWM.  Hopefully the BBM will get up around/past the TM-Su more often than the BWM did.

If it doesn't have the effect you want then i'd look at more dramatic changes.

Yeah that’s a thought. I’ll give that a go and see what happens.

[OJ403]

As said above if it works well, I'd make minimal tweaks to avoid a collapse. 

One tweak I'd make is either swap the BBM and the DLP and make your central central midfield a CM-A so like this:

BWMs CMa DLPs

Or alternatively you could just turn your DLP into a more aggressive playmaker role (e.g. RPMs or APa/s) and then potentially change your BBM into a more conservative role (e.g. CARs, CMs/d or another BWMs/d). You could even do what has been mentioned above and make him a MEZs too.

And a quick question. What actually is it your looking to get from these tweaks?

[zyfon5]

49 minutes ago, OrientTillIDie said:

Yeah that was my initial thought about the tempo and countering. When I first set the tactic up, I didn’t have counter ticked and, while it was an effective tactic, there were times when I had an opportunity to break but it didn’t happen because a player put his foot on the ball and slowed it all down. I put Counter on for a few games as an experiment and it changed everything. Not only was I keeping possession well but I was also breaking at will by slicing the opposition up with really slick passing. I’ve tried taking it off but it doesn’t seem to work as well. I might try taking it off again in my next preseason.

maybe sometimes the counter is not on bcz u have a playmaker in your team. every player wants to pass the ball to the playmaker. its one of the downsides of using a playmaker.

[TheGoodRebel]

1 hour ago, OrientTillIDie said:

Does it matter the footedness of the player in that role?

It shouldn’t matter too much. Although it might affect the type of shots they have. A left footed player would be more inclined to drive a shot with their strong foot, whereas a right footed player would probably be more inclined to try and bend one into the opposite corner.

I’m a bit of a stickler for using players on the same side as their strong foot though (with the exception of specific inverted roles).

[OrientTillIDie]

3 minutes ago, TheGoodRebel said:

It shouldn’t matter too much. Although it might affect the type of shots they have. A left footed player would be more inclined to drive a shot with their strong foot, whereas a right footed player would probably be more inclined to try and bend one into the opposite corner.

I’m a bit of a stickler for using players on the same side as their strong foot though (with the exception of specific inverted roles).

 Thanks for this.

I’m the same as you on having players on the same side as their strong foot. Other than the inverted roles, I generally have my support striker with the opposite foot because in my head it makes sense that if they got the ball with their back to goal and turned to find their striker partner then they’ll be turning inside so I want their stronger foot to be the opposite to the slot they’re in, then ideally the other striker will have the correct foot for the side they’re on. I don’t know if that’s even a thing on the game but it seems to work for me. 

[OrientTillIDie]

Just to add to this thread again, if I’m using three centre backs on Central Defender with Defend duty, is a necessity to play with a central midfielder with Defend duty when on Positive mentality and looking to control the game in the opposition’s half? Is that overkill? I can’t seem to find a balance between covering the defence from counter attacks and getting enough players forward to support my strikers and so inevitably neither thing happens and they just float about in the middle of the park.

The other issue I’ve got is that I can only seem to get goals now with a DLF and AF both on Attack duty but my wing backs only really play well on Attack duty too and I’m conscious of overdoing it.

Tactics are in my opening post... I’ve tried with an Advanced Playmaker/Roaming Playmaker instead of a DLP, a Mezzala instead of a BBM and or the BWM. I’ve tried dropping a midfielder into the DM strata but on Support duty in an attempt to cover the defence but it feels like there’s not enough going forward.

[GianniM]

You could try the WB on the side of the DLF and the BWM on attack, and the opposite WB on support. A WB is quite attack-minded already, especially when being the only wide player. 

Or have a CMa to have more penetration into the box. 

                  DLFs       AFa

           DLPs       CMd        CMa

WBa                                             WBs

            CDd        CDd         CDd

 

Still, play out of defense, lower tempo and use of a DLP don't match the counter TI

[That There Phil]

I've had success on FM20 with the following:
 

                     PFa         PFs

           MEZs       DLPd        MEZa

WBa                                               WBs

              BPDd     CDc     BPDd

                             SKs

The DLP is quite a demanding role as the player needs to combine being a playmaker and a destroyer type, giving the Mezzalas the freedom to express themselves going forwards. I gave the DLP the PIs  'take more risks' and 'more direct passing' and seeing him sit deep and spray killer passes around to the forward runners is absolutely glorious.

The only role I wasn't 100% happy with was the PFs, so I'm sure you could slot your TMs in there.

[OrientTillIDie]

3 minutes ago, That There Phil said:

I've had success on FM20 with the following:
 

                     PFa         PFs

           MEZs       DLPd        MEZa

WBa                                               WBs

              BPDd     CDc     BPDd

                             SKs

The DLP is quite a demanding role as the player needs to combine being a playmaker and a destroyer type, giving the Mezzalas the freedom to express themselves going forwards. I gave the DLP the PIs  'take more risks' and 'more direct passing' and seeing him sit deep and spray killer passes around to the forward runners is absolutely glorious.

The only role I wasn't 100% happy with was the PFs, so I'm sure you could slot your TMs in there.

Thanks for this. I’ll give this a go and see what happens. I’ve got the players for the roles so I’m hopeful.

[That There Phil]

1 minute ago, OrientTillIDie said:

Thanks for this. I’ll give this a go and see what happens. I’ve got the players for the roles so I’m hopeful.

No worries, good luck with it.

[Nyron]

What kind of striker are you using for your TM out of interest? I have a similar set up with a DLF and AF but just can't get them to click. My strikers are quick and mobile and the DLF in particular is an excellent allrounder and I had visions of him dropping deep, holding the ball up, laying it off and making runs into box but he just seems to stand on the edge of the box and get marked out the game. Was thinking of trying him as a targetman but was always put off by the fact it's not a 'posession' type of role.

[OrientTillIDie]

12 minutes ago, Nyron said:

What kind of striker are you using for your TM out of interest? I have a similar set up with a DLF and AF but just can't get them to click. My strikers are quick and mobile and the DLF in particular is an excellent allrounder and I had visions of him dropping deep, holding the ball up, laying it off and making runs into box but he just seems to stand on the edge of the box and get marked out the game. Was thinking of trying him as a targetman but was always put off by the fact it's not a 'posession' type of role.

Ideally a tall bloke who can win a significant number of headers. I’ve tried it with a strength based Target Man (the Akinfenwa type) but it doesn’t work as well because I get a lot of crosses in and I need someone who can really challenge for the ball aerially. In League 1, Charlie Wyke was a monster. In the Championship, Kieffer Moore was my guy. I usually look for players who are 6’3” and above, which can be very hard to come by which is why for this season I’ve changed to a DLF on Attack duty. It’s not my long term vision. 

I find that if you instruct the team to play out of defence and keep the passing short then they very rarely lump it forwards. I still usually have over 50% of the possession and finish seasons in the top 5 for passes completed. On the rare occasion that my defenders can’t find a short pass out from the back then having a big man up front is a useful outlet. Predominantly though, he’s a threat from crosses