Best full back/raumdeuter combination?

[Jorge666]

Would it be best to use an attacking full back with overlap duty paired with a raumdeuter (reus) and have the opposite flank on a more moderate role selection to get the best out of the set up? 

[Jorge666]

Anyone? Doesn't seem to matter what combination of roles I'm using ATM both my wingers and full back seem to be getting 6.2-6.6 ratings any ideas? Formation 4231 wide 

[GianniM]

Wouldn't use overlap because the RMD needs space to attack and score, he shouldn't be holding up the ball and wait for others to close down his space. 

Try a full back on the same side that allows him space (I've been recommended a WBsu but have mixed successes, perhaps also due to my other roles and TIs), and wide men on the opposite flank stretching the defence that provide him with crosses. 

I recently played a match vs Liverpool where my RMD did very well. RMD + WBsu on the right, FBa + IFs on the left and a CSsu in the center (no AMC though). Standard LOE, regroup and pass into space to exploit the RMD. So this is a bit direct which I could do against Liverpool but against teams sitting deep it's more difficult. 

My FBa has 'Hit early crosses' as player trait and he's connecting to that AMR position very easily lately, be it as a RMD or a Winger. 

[Piperita]

The ones I have had most success with:

1) WBau on Balanced (Positive is okay, too), ordered to take less risks and hold position. Defensively solid, plays a lot of great forward-passes to the RMD, and uses the wide spaces efficiently: He'll not run to the bylines but will still happily occupy most of the opponent's half's side, roughly to the boy's height. If he is blocked, he'll try to pass sideways to a midfielder (perfect with an AP or RPM!) or forwards to the RPM. If we lose possession, he dashes back.

2) IWBs with his strong foot being the side he is played on AND an Midfielder who drifts wide. Great for systems that switch flanks often. This combination can open up spaces on the other side and hit hard when it rebounds and has some good passes to the RPM. Put a hybrid winger on the other side and see how it goes!

3.1) WBd: The conservative alternative to 1). Great for quick counters and for securing your RPM's offensive lust but sometimes a bit too stationary.

3.2) Any attack-duty, especially when using a really good CMd on his side and preferably a DM who is not too aggressive. Occupy the Fullback with another aggressive attacker so that the RMD has more space and one opponent less to worry about! But really, really needs defensive support unless you play to simply outscore the opponent.

4) Standard Fullback: Does everything a little and can be customised quite well.

[Jorge666]

5 hours ago, GianniM said:

Wouldn't use overlap because the RMD needs space to attack and score, he shouldn't be holding up the ball and wait for others to close down his space. 

Try a full back on the same side that allows him space (I've been recommended a WBsu but have mixed successes, perhaps also due to my other roles and TIs), and wide men on the opposite flank stretching the defence that provide him with crosses. 

I recently played a match vs Liverpool where my RMD did very well. RMD + WBsu on the right, FBa + IFs on the left and a CSsu in the center (no AMC though). Standard LOE, regroup and pass into space to exploit the RMD. So this is a bit direct which I could do against Liverpool but against teams sitting deep it's more difficult. 

My FBa has 'Hit early crosses' as player trait and he's connecting to that AMR position very easily lately, be it as a RMD or a Winger. 

It's a joke this game, tried that and reus got a 6.9 which is ok to be fair but I still conceded 2 goals and lost against 10 men, any advice on decent team instructions? I've got decent players they just play absolutely garbage all the time and it's winding me up.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Experienced Defender
inappropriate word

[GianniM]

Can you post a screenshot of your tactic? 

[Jorge666]

1 minute ago, GianniM said:

Can you post a screenshot of your tactic? 

 

[Jorge666]

12 minutes ago, GianniM said:

Can you post a screenshot of your tactic? 

better screen shots

[GianniM]

So basically all your TIs are contradictory. 

Like I said I wouldn't want overlap when using a RMD. 

Play out of defense vs counter will reduce your options when playing out of defense, because your players will be running forward instead of contributing to the build-up

Extremely urgent pressing + counter press vs Tighter marking 

The AF and the Mezzala will be fighting for the same space your RMD needs to attack. A RMD needs space and you're not giving that to him. 

I think you should really take a step back, think about how you want to play, who needs to be the scorer, who needs to be the creator, who needs to create space and also who needs to defend, because you definitely lack defensive cover as well. 

[Jorge666]

1 minute ago, GianniM said:

So basically all your TIs are contradictory. 

Like I said I wouldn't want overlap when using a RMD. 

Play out of defense vs counter will reduce your options when playing out of defense, because your players will be running forward instead of contributing to the build-up

Extremely urgent pressing + counter press vs Tighter marking 

The AF and the Mezzala will be fighting for the same space your RMD needs to attack. A RMD needs space and you're not giving that to him. 

I think you should really take a step back, think about how you want to play, who needs to be the scorer, who needs to be the creator, who needs to create space and also who needs to defend, because you definitely lack defensive cover as well. 

Counter attacking quickly but trying not to lose possession too much, effective attacking play from the wings and obviously a lone striker he should be contributing too it's not very helpful the game in terms of advising you which instructions might be counterproductive, maybe I am a little naive but your assistant doesn't really help in telling anything besides "we should really try shorter passing" or "blablabla needs to be marked tightly" during the game 

[Britrock]

The one time i used a raumdeuter I played a FBs behind him with a F9 and a shadow striker alongside him and I managed to use that to win the league and cup double in Uruguay. My formation was this (yes, I realise this is utter madness, but it somehow worked!)

[Jorge666]

18 minutes ago, Britrock said:

The one time i used a raumdeuter I played a FBs behind him with a F9 and a shadow striker alongside him and I managed to use that to win the league and cup double in Uruguay. My formation was this (yes, I realise this is utter madness, but it somehow worked!)

I've actually tried the SS F9 combination

[Djuicer]

I would use a WB on support. 

Or as @Britrock above. A full back on support.

[Jorge666]

1 minute ago, Djuicer said:

I would use a WB on support. 

Or as @Britrock above. A full back on support.

Just did in the last match and won 3-2 Raumdeuter got 6.9 and the full back also, both my right backs were injured two days before the match so had to play a shoddy half full orange right winger there so the right wing struggled but a win is a win

[Incubus1989]

Have you tried turning down his pressing intensity (if it's an option on his PI's)? Would mean he's not really involved in the press but could help him find space.

[Jorge666]

2 minutes ago, Incubus1989 said:

Have you tried turning down his pressing intensity (if it's an option on his PI's)? Would mean he's not really involved in the press but could help him find space.

I'll have a look now although if I remember you can't really alter much on RMD player instructions

[Incubus1989]

I'm only on FM19 but just checked and I could turn it down on there. 

[GianniM]

24 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

Just did in the last match and won 3-2 Raumdeuter got 6.9 and the full back also, both my right backs were injured two days before the match so had to play a shoddy half full orange right winger there so the right wing struggled but a win is a win

Really, you're playing matches in two minutes obviously you're not able to see anything of what's happening on the pitch. 

Again, like I said take a step back, build a tactic from scratch and this time really think of what roles, duties and instructions you're going to use, keep it simple. You're never going to make your RMD work with this formation and these TI's regardless of which full back role you choose because every other part of your tactic is just not designed to make your RMD succeed. 

Then if you have a more sensible tactic, WATCH a game so you can actually see what's working as expected and what isn't, and tweak your tactic based on that. 

[mp_87]

a) Stop getting hung up on the match ratings, is my advice.

b) What are you actually trying to achieve? As has been said, the roles and instructions are a bit of a mess.

You cant just look at those two positions in isolation when trying to build that combination. Other roles around them will need to complement them in order for them to shine and have a balanced team.

Also, if as it seems, you're trying to get a threatening left flank with the Raumdeuter heavily involved and wingback bombing on outside him, why is the play focused down the right flank? Amongst many other things I'd change, that is going to be one reason he/they are doing very little.

[Jorge666]

1 minute ago, mp_87 said:

a) Stop getting hung up on the match ratings, is my advice.

b) What are you actually trying to achieve? As has been said, the roles and instructions are a bit of a mess.

You cant just look at those two positions in isolation when trying to build that combination. Other roles around them will need to complement them in order for them to shine and have a balanced team.

Also, if as it seems, you're trying to get a threatening left flank with the Raumdeuter heavily involved and wingback bombing on outside him, why is the play focused down the right flank? Amongst many other things I'd change, that is going to be one reason he/they are doing very little.

It's hard not to get hung up on player ratings when your wingers and strikers are getting 6.3-6.6 I'd like to harass the opposition and take the ball off them and quickly counter attack (using my raumdeuter when he's fit/available as the forefront of the approach) most times, I  acknowledge and appreciate what's been said by all posters but a little advice on what might help would be more helpful than simply pointing out what isn't working, people have varying degrees of tactical understanding and simply telling someone that theirs is not good, start again, by the time I find something that works I'm relegated and have lost all my players 

[Jorge666]

6 minutes ago, mp_87 said:

a) Stop getting hung up on the match ratings, is my advice.

b) What are you actually trying to achieve? As has been said, the roles and instructions are a bit of a mess.

You cant just look at those two positions in isolation when trying to build that combination. Other roles around them will need to complement them in order for them to shine and have a balanced team.

Also, if as it seems, you're trying to get a threatening left flank with the Raumdeuter heavily involved and wingback bombing on outside him, why is the play focused down the right flank? Amongst many other things I'd change, that is going to be one reason he/they are doing very little.

And I tried focusing the play down the right to draw the markers away from my raumdeuter and have my right flank cross the ball over that way, just experimentation

[Incubus1989]

Have you noticed the AMC or Mezzala running in to the space you want the RMD to be in? 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Incubus1989

[Jorge666]

32 minutes ago, Incubus1989 said:

Have you noticed the AMC or Mezzala running in to the space you want the RMD to be in? 

I'm watching a game now, my players close down and just stand there and don't tackle

[mp_87]

4 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

It's hard not to get hung up on player ratings when your wingers and strikers are getting 6.3-6.6 I'd like to harass the opposition and take the ball off them and quickly counter attack (using my raumdeuter when he's fit/available as the forefront of the approach) most times, I  acknowledge and appreciate what's been said by all posters but a little advice on what might help would be more helpful than simply pointing out what isn't working, people have varying degrees of tactical understanding and simply telling someone that theirs is not good, start again, by the time I find something that works I'm relegated and have lost all my players 

 

3 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

And I tried focusing the play down the right to draw the markers away from my raumdeuter and have my right flank cross the ball over that way, just experimentation

Firstly, some general points.

I can appreciate it is tough when you're first starting to try and make logical tactics and/or trying to implement a specific playing style. It is good that you are doing it, keep going it will get easier. But as has been said to you already, you have to slow down and put some work into the learning process. You learn by watching the matches and how things play out. I know it's a bit boring, it's not what people want to do in the time they devote to FM, but at this point don't set up a long term save. Just set up some throwaway saves to experiment with tactics to help learn what works, what doesn't, and what effect different instructions have. Watch matches in full.

On the ratings, I just wouldn't tear your hair out about it. Sometimes it indicates underperforming players, sometimes it is just quirks in the FM algorithm. Since I can remember it has never been perfect, some positions overrated, some underrated. For example, most of my tactics include a midfield pivot, designed to just recycle the ball and mop up/intercept when the opposition clear it away. This player for me invariably averages 100 passes a match just simply keeping things moving, circa 95% completion rate, and has endless interceptions. But he never scores, doesn't assist, and doesn't tackle much as he doesn't need to. In as many editions as FM as I can remember it's a miracle if he gets over 6.7 rating. The game thinks this player does nothing of note, so will never get accolades or awards in game, but really they are one of, if not the, most important cogs in my machine.

 

As for tactics, start with minimal instructions until you are sure of the effect they have and you are clear about that will help with your playing style.

In your tactic there, it is a mass of contradiction. A lot to go through so I'll just bullet point:

Two central midfield playmakers who will want the ball, a left flank set up to all converge, but the play instructed to go down the right. This is the first thing to address. I'd just get rid of the instruction.

If you want to press high and counter quickly, other instructions need to go: Work ball into box, why you want that? Low Crosses, for me that's not one that goes with quick counter attacks. Play for set pieces is also definitely not needed. I'd personally be wary of Higher Tempo also, until I knew I had the players to play at high pace, but not saying to definitely get rid of it. I'd experiment with and without it (normal).

Also, when it comes to pressing Raum and AP are hardcoded to not be the best at pressing. That's not to say they wont, but are weaker than other roles. In a 4-2-3-1 high press I usually don't put a playmaker in those four attacking roles. Some people would, to maximise pressing I wouldn't.

And if you want to counter quickly, do you need two midfield playmakers? There could be a tendency to look for these players rather than the forward pass, I would monitor that closely...

But to be the main man the Raumdeuter needs a path clearing for him. In your side if he goes forward  to score goals the Attacking forward is in his way. If he comes inside to be a creator he's meeting the Mezzala and probably the Advanced Playmaker. Also that left flank is way too attacking for me. If the Wingback is bombing on then the central midfielder should be a more conservative role I'd say. Why does the Mez need to go into that space also? If you think he does, then rein in the fullback role. All in all there is a good chance he just gets crowded out.

[GianniM]

1 hour ago, Jorge666 said:

It's hard not to get hung up on player ratings when your wingers and strikers are getting 6.3-6.6 I'd like to harass the opposition and take the ball off them and quickly counter attack (using my raumdeuter when he's fit/available as the forefront of the approach) most times, I  acknowledge and appreciate what's been said by all posters but a little advice on what might help would be more helpful than simply pointing out what isn't working, people have varying degrees of tactical understanding and simply telling someone that theirs is not good, start again, by the time I find something that works I'm relegated and have lost all my players 

2 hours ago, Jorge666 said:

Counter attacking quickly but trying not to lose possession too much, effective attacking play from the wings and obviously a lone striker he should be contributing

I'm not a great tactician myself but let's create more space for your RMD to start with:

1. I wouldn't use this formation 4-2-3-1 because it has many players up top so there is no space for him. Kind of the same formation but with a DM instead of an AM: 4-1-4-1 DM. 
2. Make your striker drop deeper: CF or DLF
3. Switch the MEZ to the opposite side of the RMD and change the DLP to a CM or BWM (you probably don't want a playmaker in a counter-attacking tactic, I think it's more suited to possession styles. Or if you do, you'd want him in the DM spot to launch counters from deep)
4. You have a DM now whose role would depend on what you want your FBs to do. Myself I'm using two attacking type full backs and therefore I'm using a HB to stay behind when in possession, or you might use a DLP as above.

Regarding TIs:

1. Positive mentality
2. Pass into space ONLY if you expect to have this space, and if you can utilise it with pacey forwards. So not when opposition is parking the bus because there won't be space to pass into.
3. Perhaps regroup (depending on LOE)
4. Counter
5. Standard or lower LOE
6. Respectively, higher or standard LOD
7. Distribute to full backs

Leave the rest blank or on standard, watch matches and try to see what changes if you tweak things. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by GianniM

[Jorge666]

4 minutes ago, GianniM said:

I'm not a great tactician myself but let's create more space for your RMD to start with:

1. I wouldn't use this formation 4-2-3-1 because it has many players up top so there is no space for him. Kind of the same formation but with a DM instead of an AM: 4-1-4-1 DM. 
2. Make your striker drop deeper: CF or DLF
3. Switch the MEZ to the opposite side of the RMD and change the DLP to a CM or BWM (you probably don't want a playmaker in a counter-attacking tactic, I think it's more suited to possession styles. Or you'd want him in the DM spot to launch counters from deep)
4. You have a DM now whose role would depend on what you want your FBs to do. Myself I'm using two attacking type full backs and therefore I'm using a HB to stay behind when in possession, or you might use a DLP as above.

Regarding TIs:

1. Positive mentality
2. Pass into space ONLY if you expect to have this space, and if you can utilise it with pacey forwards. So not when opposition is parking the bus because there won't be space to pass into.
3. Perhaps regroup (depending on LOE)
4. Counter
5. Standard or lower LOE
6. Respectively, higher or standard LOD
7. Distribute to full backs

Leave the rest blank or on standard, watch matches and try to see what changes if you tweak things. 

 

13 minutes ago, mp_87 said:

 

Firstly, some general points.

I can appreciate it is tough when you're first starting to try and make logical tactics and/or trying to implement a specific playing style. It is good that you are doing it, keep going it will get easier. But as has been said to you already, you have to slow down and put some work into the learning process. You learn by watching the matches and how things play out. I know it's a bit boring, it's not what people want to do in the time they devote to FM, but at this point don't set up a long term save. Just set up some throwaway saves to experiment with tactics to help learn what works, what doesn't, and what effect different instructions have. Watch matches in full.

On the ratings, I just wouldn't tear your hair out about it. Sometimes it indicates underperforming players, sometimes it is just quirks in the FM algorithm. Since I can remember it has never been perfect, some positions overrated, some underrated. For example, most of my tactics include a midfield pivot, designed to just recycle the ball and mop up/intercept when the opposition clear it away. This player for me invariably averages 100 passes a match just simply keeping things moving, circa 95% completion rate, and has endless interceptions. But he never scores, doesn't assist, and doesn't tackle much as he doesn't need to. In as many editions as FM as I can remember it's a miracle if he gets over 6.7 rating. The game thinks this player does nothing of note, so will never get accolades or awards in game, but really they are one of, if not the, most important cogs in my machine.

 

As for tactics, start with minimal instructions until you are sure of the effect they have and you are clear about that will help with your playing style.

In your tactic there, it is a mass of contradiction. A lot to go through so I'll just bullet point:

Two central midfield playmakers who will want the ball, a left flank set up to all converge, but the play instructed to go down the right. This is the first thing to address. I'd just get rid of the instruction.

If you want to press high and counter quickly, other instructions need to go: Work ball into box, why you want that? Low Crosses, for me that's not one that goes with quick counter attacks. Play for set pieces is also definitely not needed. I'd personally be wary of Higher Tempo also, until I knew I had the players to play at high pace, but not saying to definitely get rid of it. I'd experiment with and without it (normal).

Also, when it comes to pressing Raum and AP are hardcoded to not be the best at pressing. That's not to say they wont, but are weaker than other roles. In a 4-2-3-1 high press I usually don't put a playmaker in those four attacking roles. Some people would, to maximise pressing I wouldn't.

And if you want to counter quickly, do you need two midfield playmakers? There could be a tendency to look for these players rather than the forward pass, I would monitor that closely...

But to be the main man the Raumdeuter needs a path clearing for him. In your side if he goes forward  to score goals the Attacking forward is in his way. If he comes inside to be a creator he's meeting the Mezzala and probably the Advanced Playmaker. Also that left flank is way too attacking for me. If the Wingback is bombing on then the central midfielder should be a more conservative role I'd say. Why does the Mez need to go into that space also? If you think he does, then rein in the fullback role. All in all there is a good chance he just gets crowded out.

trying to take the best of whats been said move the AMC across to give raumdeuter more space, refined instructions to be more counter oriented, i have to have to two CM as DLP as they are only half green on anything that doesnt ask them to drift wide, but ive set them both to hold position (thinking that might prevent crowding that area and also being short manned in the middle)

[Jorge666]

well that went down like the hindenburg

[Incubus1989]

Have you read this post about overloads? This really helped me with this kind of thing:

 

 

[GianniM]

1 minute ago, Jorge666 said:

well that went down like the hindenburg

Well yes of course, you still have a SS and a CF both on attack duty so both trying to attack the space the RMD needs. 

Also still extremely urgent pressing which further reduces his space, and still the top-heavy formation - same effect. 

And you now have even two DLPs in the CM positions, like I and others have said before this isn't going to help you with a quick counter strategy. 

[Jorge666]

1 minute ago, GianniM said:

Well yes of course, you still have a SS and a CF both on attack duty so both trying to attack the space the RMD needs. 

Also still extremely urgent pressing which further reduces his space, and still the top-heavy formation - same effect. 

And you now have even two DLPs in the CM positions, like I and others have said before this isn't going to help you with a quick counter strategy. 

the CM i have if i have them on any other position their positional familiarity goes down to half a circle, ive tried having the CF as a support duty in matches before he gets even worse ratings,

[mp_87]

I don't know where to start....

The place to start from is not some funky shape.

You've got everyone lined up with a bias towards the right, and now focusing the play down the left....

Absolutely no need for two DLP. As for what the system rates them as, ignore it. You do not need perfect green circles.

I'm not familiar with some of these players, I've looked them up now... Are these really suited to counter attack football? I see a lot of technical players who will want to dominate the ball.

As I said, set up a throwaway save and experiment from there, not in the middle of one of your main saves. Chopping and changing and introducing tactics moments before kick off is likely not to go well.

And you must have just rushed through that match on minimal highlights. How can you learn by doing that or react to what is happening in game?

[Incubus1989]

The circles don't really matter, as long as his attributes march up the role he can play it fine.

[Jorge666]

4 minutes ago, mp_87 said:

I don't know where to start....

The place to start from is not some funky shape.

You've got everyone lined up with a bias towards the right, and now focusing the play down the left....

Absolutely no need for two DLP. As for what the system rates them as, ignore it. You do not need perfect green circles.

I'm not familiar with some of these players, I've looked them up now... Are these really suited to counter attack football? I see a lot of technical players who will want to dominate the ball.

As I said, set up a throwaway save and experiment from there, not in the middle of one of your main saves. Chopping and changing and introducing tactics moments before kick off is likely not to go well.

And you must have just rushed through that match on minimal highlights. How can you learn by doing that or react to what is happening in game?

because i've saved it on a separate file and keep re-simming the match on commentary only and analysing what happens via the result and stats , i wasnt doing terribly before i just wanted to try and maximise the performance of my wingers and attackers as they seem to quite often get low ratings and the games scrappy and not fluent which id expect to be better considering i have some fairly adept technical players, and i wanted to try and refine this without ruining my season try different approach game after game and getting hammered, obviously my tactical approach is dog sh*t and having half decent players alone has gotten me this far, but i want to try and make more use of the quality of players i have without ruining my season in doing so, youre right i could do a throw away save but then its different players etc and different opponents, i understand there isnt a "one fits all tactic to win every game" but when my best striker arezo a tried and tested good player is lucky to get 10 a season and my wingers are gettin sub 6.7 every game im obviously not making the most of what i have

[Jorge666]

14 minutes ago, mp_87 said:

I don't know where to start....

The place to start from is not some funky shape.

You've got everyone lined up with a bias towards the right, and now focusing the play down the left....

Absolutely no need for two DLP. As for what the system rates them as, ignore it. You do not need perfect green circles.

I'm not familiar with some of these players, I've looked them up now... Are these really suited to counter attack football? I see a lot of technical players who will want to dominate the ball.

As I said, set up a throwaway save and experiment from there, not in the middle of one of your main saves. Chopping and changing and introducing tactics moments before kick off is likely not to go well.

And you must have just rushed through that match on minimal highlights. How can you learn by doing that or react to what is happening in game?

So maybe a more possession type of tactic would be better, my original tactic was possession and pressing based but maybe the element of counter attack i was trying to impart was taking away from the effectiveness of what was in part successful?

[GianniM]

Just now, Jorge666 said:

So maybe a more possession type of tactic would be better, my original tactic was possession and pressing based but maybe the element of counter attack i was trying to impart was taking away from the effectiveness of what was in part successful?

Surely if you want to use 4-2-3-1 with playmakers and technically adept players a successful tactic is going to be possession based

[Jorge666]

1 minute ago, GianniM said:

Surely if you want to use 4-2-3-1 with playmakers and technically adept players a successful tactic is going to be possession based

Yeah i agree but being 1860 im facing teams that are better than me a lot, so when they inevitably push me back id like to try and capitalize

[mp_87]

5 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

because i've saved it on a separate file and keep re-simming the match on commentary only and analysing what happens via the result and stats , i wasnt doing terribly before i just wanted to try and maximise the performance of my wingers and attackers as they seem to quite often get low ratings and the games scrappy and not fluent which id expect to be better considering i have some fairly adept technical players, and i wanted to try and refine this without ruining my season try different approach game after game and getting hammered, obviously my tactical approach is dog sh*t and having half decent players alone has gotten me this far, but i want to try and make more use of the quality of players i have without ruining my season in doing so, youre right i could do a throw away save but then its different players etc and different opponents, i understand there isnt a "one fits all tactic to win every game" but when my best striker arezo a tried and tested good player is lucky to get 10 a season and my wingers are gettin sub 6.7 every game im obviously not making the most of what i have

But watching commentary only and looking at the stats is not going to be able to show you the how and why things got better, just the end result. And what works for one game might not work in others, you need to have some trends and build up some evidence.

Work the problem. Lets go back to the start... Ignore what the player ratings were. You say games were "scrappy and not fluent", this can happen with new players and a team that's hasn't gelled yet which is something to bare in mind if you've made a lot of transfers and tactical changes. What were you seeing that you'd like to have improved, and what style of play were you trying to develop in your initial tactic? (or was the first one that you posted what you have been using?).

[Jorge666]

2 minutes ago, mp_87 said:

But watching commentary only and looking at the stats is not going to be able to show you the how and why things got better, just the end result. And what works for one game might not work in others, you need to have some trends and build up some evidence.

Work the problem. Lets go back to the start... Ignore what the player ratings were. You say games were "scrappy and not fluent", this can happen with new players and a team that's hasn't gelled yet which is something to bare in mind if you've made a lot of transfers and tactical changes. What were you seeing that you'd like to have improved, and what style of play were you trying to develop in your initial tactic? (or was the first one that you posted what you have been using?).

The first one, in the lower leagues i was dominating possession, but still not scoring many, the problem always is, i have technically adept AML, AMR and arezo up front and i just feel like they're not being utilized effectively, its not dissimilar in how barcelona have played in the past what i want to do (its laughable i know...) but i thought adding a counter element to that system to try and help against the much better opposition im finding since i got to bundesliga, my players arent a million miles behind the teams from 4th-10th expected position in the league but i just cant seem to get the performances out of them, at home against weak sides struggling to create chances, i watched the full extended highlights before its like my players are just thick, they press but dont tackle, give the ball away easily, theres no way to instruct your single players to send it to the flanks only a team generalization which it seems is overkill and neglects any other form of build up 

[GianniM]

4 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

i have technically adept AML, AMR and arezo up front and i just feel like they're not being utilized effectively ...  at home against weak sides struggling to create chance

Because you don't give them the space to operate in due to the reasons stated before

6 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

i watched the full extended highlights before

You're obviously looking to find out what's going wrong and the only way to do that is to watch the full match, and don't just think 'they give the ball away easily' but think 'why did they give the ball away easily'. Did they have a better option? Did I ask them to play quick short passing but they don't have the right decision making or technical attributes to do so? Am I being closed down by the opposition? 

8 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

my players arent a million miles behind the teams from 4th-10th expected position in the league

So if you're saying you're expected to be lower than 10th position, a 4-2-3-1 possession game is probably not the way to go

11 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

theres no way to instruct your single players to send it to the flanks only a team generalization which it seems is overkill and neglects any other form of build up 

So you need to build your tactic in the way that the flanks are a good passing option. And having central playmakers is going to do the opposite, because playmakers want to have the ball and the teammates are going to give it to them. 

[Jorge666]

9 minutes ago, GianniM said:

Because you don't give them the space to operate in due to the reasons stated before

You're obviously looking to find out what's going wrong and the only way to do that is to watch the full match, and don't just think 'they give the ball away easily' but think 'why did they give the ball away easily'. Did they have a better option? Did I ask them to play quick short passing but they don't have the right decision making or technical attributes to do so? Am I being closed down by the opposition? 

So if you're saying you're expected to be lower than 10th position, a 4-2-3-1 possession game is probably not the way to go

So you need to build your tactic in the way that the flanks are a good passing option. And having central playmakers is going to do the opposite, because playmakers want to have the ball and the teammates are going to give it to them. 

The problem is, i had success with the tactic in bundesliga 2 so my players are players that are adept in this so how am i supposed to change that now and as ive said if i play the cm in other roles they seem to get bad ratings

[GianniM]

1 minute ago, Jorge666 said:

The problem is, i had success with the tactic in bundesliga 2 so my players are players that are adept in this so how am i supposed to change that now and as ive said if i play the cm in other roles they seem to get bad ratings

But being a top side in Bundesliga 2 requires a different way of play than being a low side in Bundesliga 1. 

And forget about the ratings. DMs usually get bad ratings because they just play simple passes and make tackles, FM doesn't rate that highly. A player can play a bad match, lose the ball constantly but if he has one lucky long-range shot turn into a goal he'll be rated an instant 8. Watch what your player does in game, for a DM check his tackling stats (number of successful tackles, important tackles, number of interceptions). Because you say you're managing based on statistics but you're just talking about match ratings here and nothing else. 

A CM with good positioning, tackling, work rate, decisions etc. will make a decent DM after a few matches when he's used to the position. Provided of course that the rest of the tactic is balanced. 

Myself I took on Real Sporting Gijon in Spanish second division, also with a 4-2-3-1 but when I got promoted, first thing I did was to buy myself an extra DM and change the formation to a 4-1-4-1 DM. The formations are pretty interchangeable and you can go both ways with it - direct or possession. 

[GianniM]

Also with you being in 2023 already - how good is Reus still? Does he still have the pace and acceleration a RMD needs? Can you post a screen shot of him? 

[Jorge666]

16 minutes ago, GianniM said:

Also with you being in 2023 already - how good is Reus still? Does he still have the pace and acceleration a RMD needs? Can you post a screen shot of him? 

might have a good point there... any better suggestions to get some last usage from him, hes very good from dead-ball situations but sabotaging the team otherwise

[Jorge666]

20 minutes ago, GianniM said:

Also with you being in 2023 already - how good is Reus still? Does he still have the pace and acceleration a RMD needs? Can you post a screen shot of him? 

The only fully green raumdeuter ive ever seen, if only i had the money 

[GianniM]

5 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

might have a good point there... any better suggestions to get some last usage from him, hes very good from dead-ball situations but sabotaging the team otherwise

IF you are to use him at all, then as a central playmaker. But then again, I fear that wouldn't suit your counter-attacking playing style. So I wouldn't bother using him. 

[GianniM]

6 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

The only fully green raumdeuter ive ever seen, if only i had the money 

Mine definitely is greener:

[Jorge666]

Just now, GianniM said:

IF you are to use him at all, then as a central playmaker. But then again, I fear that wouldn't suit your counter-attacking playing style. So I wouldn't bother using him. 

I'm gonna just use him for cover, ive taken away the contradictory elements of the TI's and just gona straight possession based play and have seen better results, i think also arezo is just a bad egg... i bought an argentinian regen in the off season and hes scored about 9 in 12

[Jorge666]

1 minute ago, GianniM said:

Mine definitely is greener:

His attributes yeah, i mean for the role suitability, even thomas muller isnt a full green circle, that regen has a release clause of 5.25m so hes mine if nobody buys him before the season is out! the regens on this save are off the charts, dortmund have some unreal ones, it feels like the game has created better ones with me starting with a lower league side, when i managed dortmund the regens were all garbage

[GianniM]

This is how I set up using a RMD vs Liverpool:

Pass into space and be more expressive to evoke killer passes

Regroup with a standard LOE to make sure he's got space to attack. 

Low crosses, well because I won't beat Virgil van Dijk in the air. 

FBat on the opposite side to cross to the Raumdeuter. 

[Dysania]

1 minute ago, Jorge666 said:

His attributes yeah, i mean for the role suitability, even thomas muller isnt a full green circle, that regen has a release clause of 5.25m so hes mine if nobody buys him before the season is out! the regens on this save are off the charts, dortmund have some unreal ones, it feels like the game has created better ones with me starting with a lower league side, when i managed dortmund the regens were all garbage

Attributes matter way more than role suitability. I frequently have fun playing playmakers at full back with a 1 segment in red for the role suitability and it works fine.