Lot's of possession (60% + each game), but not doing much with it.

[takeballpassball]

I am currently managing Aberdeen in the SPFL and can't seem to find that killer instinct in games, which is resulting in me drawing or losing games which I should be winning comfortably.
My wide players - especially Shved on the AMR - more often than not do nothing worthwhile during the game and end up with very poor ratings. I do get the odd game where they play exceptionally well, but that is an exception.
How do I get them more involved? 

My possession stats are usually around 60% each game I play. My players seem comfortable on the ball playing out from the back, and they move it around the midfield without any issues.
What can I do to be more clinical and break teams down in the final third? Is it just down to the players not being good enough?

I am sick of dominating games and then the opponent just running up the field and scoring a flukey goal making me draw or lose!

[GianniM]

Have a look at this topic and try applying some of these rules to your play. 

A few things I can see in your tactic:

A LOT of TI's. Try to pick a few based on the style you want to play and remove the ones that don't fit in. For example most of your TIs are made for a possession game but then you're having pass into space at the same time, which would be more suited for quick counter attacks to place a longer ball behind the defense. In your tactic you simply won't have this space because of your top-heavy formation, aggressive pressing instructions and much higher LOE. Your players will be high up the pitch, therefore the opposition will be pushed back resulting in no space. As it is now I can only imagine your play being very congested around the opposition box with no chances being created, because you're not creating space. 

So try being more moderate in your TIs as well. You're way overdoing it here with far too many and too aggressive TIs. Try a higher LOE in stead of much higher. Less aggressive pressing. 

Try creating different movements. For example have your striker in a role that makes him drop deeper, defenders will follow him and it will create space for someone else running in. 

Both your wingers cutting inside into the already congested area where also your AP and your BBM are. Try and give at least one in a wider role to stretch the defense, and change the BBM into a more holding role. 

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, takeballpassball said:

- Extremely vulnerable right flank in terms of role setup, especially for a top-heavy formation without a DM

- Both overkill and inconsistency in terms of team instructions - a total tactical mess which is absolutely not needed

- Contradiction between roles/duties and instructions

- Needlessly aggressive out-of-possession instructions, which not only increase your defensively vulnerability but also deprives your players of space in the final third when attacking

Remember, best tactics are quite simple in terms of instructions (the "less is more" principle) and optimally balanced in terms of roles and duties. Yours is lacking in both respects. 

[DimitrisLar]

5 hours ago, takeballpassball said:

I am currently managing Aberdeen in the SPFL and can't seem to find that killer instinct in games, which is resulting in me drawing or losing games which I should be winning comfortably.
My wide players - especially Shved on the AMR - more often than not do nothing worthwhile during the game and end up with very poor ratings. I do get the odd game where they play exceptionally well, but that is an exception.
How do I get them more involved? 

My possession stats are usually around 60% each game I play. My players seem comfortable on the ball playing out from the back, and they move it around the midfield without any issues.
What can I do to be more clinical and break teams down in the final third? Is it just down to the players not being good enough?

I am sick of dominating games and then the opponent just running up the field and scoring a flukey goal making me draw or lose!

read these two threads, they might help you. In terms of TI's my suggestions:

defend wider (you need space for your central players to make killer balls or better combs).

exploit the middle (it raises your central defender's mentality).

positive mentality.

you have play out of defense so the distributions might be picked if you recognise a problem. rashidi has a great video of how to build out of defense with the exact TI and without based on each problem, go check it out.

overlap only the left side

If players dont get into the shape you want quick enough then lower tempo/passing more

In terms of player roles:

both Wbs turn into Cwb(s) (you need roaming for better combs and getting into better positions. thats why you play passes around).

your IW maybe turn into a ap so he goes nect to dlp and create a diamond in the middle.

your AP(a) could be played as a Treq if you still want to use an AF.

 maybe you say something about your PI's for more insight, id say your IF(a) to have stay wider without roaming to keep width 

you ll be vulnerable with only two players back and you can turn your right back to a Nfb if you want and have your BPD with  stay wider.

 

everything else seems fine to me but try if you want and see

 

 

[sporadicsmiles]

Possession is tricky, because numbers alone can deceive. I wrote a thread about how to win by simply denying possession in my own half. It sounds like you may be suffering from this. In the analysis screen of a game you can find where you have possession (activate the possession option). If you find it is mostly in your own half, you have sterile possession that is simply not threatening. In that case, you need to think how you can be more proactive in getting the ball forward. You want possession to occur in the opposition half whenever possible if you want to be threatening. I would be interested to see what you are getting in your matches. 

[Overmars]

Keep the formation and roles, remove all of the team instructions, set your mentality to positive, and watch one full match against an average opponent. Notice where your players are when you have the ball. Do you think you need to be more conservative with any of them? Are your opponents repeatedly forging counterattack chances down your right side?

My first suggestion beside seeing how your team play without team instructions is to use a defend duty on the right sided central midfielder since you have an entirely attacking right flank. If you swap your two central midfielders, that would be sensible. Then you could use an inverted wingback on the left side to fill in when the BBM(s) on that side pushes forward. You could also use a conventional winger on the left side to keep your attacking width.

[takeballpassball]

On 08/05/2020 at 15:06, GianniM said:

Have a look at this topic and try applying some of these rules to your play. 

A few things I can see in your tactic:

A LOT of TI's. Try to pick a few based on the style you want to play and remove the ones that don't fit in. For example most of your TIs are made for a possession game but then you're having pass into space at the same time, which would be more suited for quick counter attacks to place a longer ball behind the defense. In your tactic you simply won't have this space because of your top-heavy formation, aggressive pressing instructions and much higher LOE. Your players will be high up the pitch, therefore the opposition will be pushed back resulting in no space. As it is now I can only imagine your play being very congested around the opposition box with no chances being created, because you're not creating space. 

So try being more moderate in your TIs as well. You're way overdoing it here with far too many and too aggressive TIs. Try a higher LOE in stead of much higher. Less aggressive pressing. 

Try creating different movements. For example have your striker in a role that makes him drop deeper, defenders will follow him and it will create space for someone else running in. 

Both your wingers cutting inside into the already congested area where also your AP and your BBM are. Try and give at least one in a wider role to stretch the defense, and change the BBM into a more holding role. 

I've got that link bookmarked to read, thank you!

With the 'pass into space' TI, would that not apply once space is created? 
You are correct. There is a LOT of congestion around the opponents box with not a lot happening. No space being opened up, no runs etc. 

I've dropped the intensity of the closing down and altered the LOE.
I have also changed the striker to a DLF with support, and changed the AP to a shadow striker and I am using Shved in that position as I believe he can be very effective there.

It makes so much sense when it is spelled out to you like you are doing now. Too many players occupying the same space and conflicting instructions.

Thank you for the feedback!

22 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

- Extremely vulnerable right flank in terms of role setup, especially for a top-heavy formation without a DM

- Both overkill and inconsistency in terms of team instructions - a total tactical mess which is absolutely not needed

- Contradiction between roles/duties and instructions

- Needlessly aggressive out-of-possession instructions, which not only increase your defensively vulnerability but also deprives your players of space in the final third when attacking

Remember, best tactics are quite simple in terms of instructions (the "less is more" principle) and optimally balanced in terms of roles and duties. Yours is lacking in both respects. 

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah I definitely am getting carried away with the instructions and overdoing it. I have altered a few things so we will see how it goes from here.

In terms of the wingbacks, what is a good way to set them up if I want an option of an overlap? Or is the risk always going to be there with wingbacks?

21 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

read these two threads, they might help you. In terms of TI's my suggestions:

defend wider (you need space for your central players to make killer balls or better combs).

exploit the middle (it raises your central defender's mentality).

positive mentality.

you have play out of defense so the distributions might be picked if you recognise a problem. rashidi has a great video of how to build out of defense with the exact TI and without based on each problem, go check it out.

overlap only the left side

If players dont get into the shape you want quick enough then lower tempo/passing more

In terms of player roles:

both Wbs turn into Cwb(s) (you need roaming for better combs and getting into better positions. thats why you play passes around).

your IW maybe turn into a ap so he goes nect to dlp and create a diamond in the middle.

your AP(a) could be played as a Treq if you still want to use an AF.

 maybe you say something about your PI's for more insight, id say your IF(a) to have stay wider without roaming to keep width 

you ll be vulnerable with only two players back and you can turn your right back to a Nfb if you want and have your BPD with  stay wider.

 

everything else seems fine to me but try if you want and see

 

 

Thanks for the links, I will check them out!

Yeah I wasn't sure what to do with the defensive width setting as I've never came across it before. Trial and error I guess, but I will set it wider and see how we go.

With 'exploit the middle', will this not limit the chance of my wingbacks getting played in?
Also why only overlap on the left side?

 

19 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Possession is tricky, because numbers alone can deceive. I wrote a thread about how to win by simply denying possession in my own half. It sounds like you may be suffering from this. In the analysis screen of a game you can find where you have possession (activate the possession option). If you find it is mostly in your own half, you have sterile possession that is simply not threatening. In that case, you need to think how you can be more proactive in getting the ball forward. You want possession to occur in the opposition half whenever possible if you want to be threatening. I would be interested to see what you are getting in your matches. 

Just checked and in most games I am getting more touches in the attacking half of the pitch.
I tend to pass it around in the opponents half, but not do anything useful with it. I am going address creating more space and movement for stuff to happen.

8 hours ago, Overmars said:

Keep the formation and roles, remove all of the team instructions, set your mentality to positive, and watch one full match against an average opponent. Notice where your players are when you have the ball. Do you think you need to be more conservative with any of them? Are your opponents repeatedly forging counterattack chances down your right side?

My first suggestion beside seeing how your team play without team instructions is to use a defend duty on the right sided central midfielder since you have an entirely attacking right flank. If you swap your two central midfielders, that would be sensible. Then you could use an inverted wingback on the left side to fill in when the BBM(s) on that side pushes forward. You could also use a conventional winger on the left side to keep your attacking width.

Cheers.
I have changed the BBM to a BWM(D) so I can see if that helps!

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, takeballpassball said:

In terms of the wingbacks, what is a good way to set them up if I want an option of an overlap? Or is the risk always going to be there with wingbacks?

There is no "best" way, because it depends on a number of factors - formation, the rest of your setup (other roles and duties), the player in question as well as those around him, style of play and so on... 

You can create a natural overlap without using any overlap team instructions, but you also need to keep in mind the formation you use. 4231 is a tricky formation per se, so you need to be very careful how you set up both roles/duties and instructions. 

[GianniM]

45 minutes ago, takeballpassball said:

With the 'pass into space' TI, would that not apply once space is created? 
You are correct. There is a LOT of congestion around the opponents box with not a lot happening. No space being opened up, no runs etc.

So you just answered your own question. These passes are either:

a) Not happening because there is no space
b) Or, more likely in the game this translates into players attempting to make these passes, but not successfully because they will be intercepted

50 minutes ago, takeballpassball said:

I have also changed the striker to a DLF with support, and changed the AP to a shadow striker

That could be a good combo, but also your SS would need space so I'd change at least one of the wide men into a wider role as well. 

[DimitrisLar]

1 hour ago, takeballpassball said:

Yeah I wasn't sure what to do with the defensive width setting as I've never came across it before. Trial and error I guess, but I will set it wider and see how we go.

With 'exploit the middle', will this not limit the chance of my wingbacks getting played in?
Also why only overlap on the left side?

exploit the middle doesnt make your team play through there. It raises the mentality of your central defending pairing and dm strata. With that in mind your bpds will be not so discouraged to play higher up the pitch and may give you a good option to get the ball and with switch ball to other flank+make long passes you ll get something out of them in an attacking sense. Also they play better their play out of defence if thei are under press.

its also has to do with mentality. Your IF(a) has a very attacking mentality, if you want him to be a point of reference for through balls etc you might not want him to scale down on his mentality cause overlap right will decrease his mentality to attacking. 

thats why i posted you @Djuicer 's topic to see the discussion based on mentalities there. Maybe he can offer a helping hand here too

[takeballpassball]

15 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

exploit the middle doesnt make your team play through there. It raises the mentality of your central defending pairing and dm strata. With that in mind your bpds will be not so discouraged to play higher up the pitch and may give you a good option to get the ball and with switch ball to other flank+make long passes you ll get something out of them in an attacking sense. Also they play better their play out of defence if thei are under press.

its also has to do with mentality. Your IF(a) has a very attacking mentality, if you want him to be a point of reference for through balls etc you might not want him to scale down on his mentality cause overlap right will decrease his mentality to attacking. 

thats why i posted you @Djuicer 's topic to see the discussion based on mentalities there. Maybe he can offer a helping hand here too

Ah, ok.

Yeah I have changed the IF to a winger so that he stays wide and out of the way to create space for the SS etc to work in.

Why is 4-2-1-3 a tricky formation?
 

Edited May 10, 2020 by takeballpassball

[DimitrisLar]

3 hours ago, takeballpassball said:

Ah, ok.

Yeah I have changed the IF to a winger so that he stays wide and out of the way to create space for the SS etc to work in.

Why is 4-2-1-3 a tricky formation?
 

with a winger you should have in mind that the wb won't roam behind him. with an If there is a natural overlap but this is your tactic and you know what you want them to do. many people use a IW as an alternative with stay wider so they keep the overlap.

every tactic seems to be tricky nowadays :P

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, takeballpassball said:

Why is 4-2-1-3 a tricky formation?

Because it's top-heavy and has no DM.

[takeballpassball]

So I have changed the formation a little to this:

In an attempt to be more solid I opted for the DM instead of an AMC. 
However, I am wondering if a Defensive Mid is a wise choice here? Would I be better with a DLP(d) and then change the two CM to CM(a) and either a BMW(s) or a BBM?

I am still not creating and scoring many goals. Stats from two 1-0 defeats are as follows:

Me - 7 shots, 3 on target. 69% possession.
Opposition - 6 shots, 2 on target.

Me - 12 shots, 5 on target. 47% possession.
Opposition - 10 shots, 8 on target.

I also keep getting caught out with long balls.
Example here:

Simple long kick from the keeper.

My CB and FB make an absolute meal of it and the striker goes through to score.

 

Another long ball.

 

Striker gets through.

 

My defenders aren't the slowest so why are the opposition getting in behind all the time? I have a high defensive line and high LOE which I toned down a little from previously.

Any ideas how I can stop the opposition getting as many chances, and at the same time creating more for myself?

[Starsurfer]

1 hour ago, takeballpassball said:

So I have changed the formation a little to this:

My defenders aren't the slowest so why are the opposition getting in behind all the time? I have a high defensive line and high LOE which I toned down a little from previously.

Any ideas how I can stop the opposition getting as many chances, and at the same time creating more for myself?

 

By keeping your setup intact as much as possible, I'd begin by making the following tweaks then adjust further accordingly to opponent during match:

• Add a split block pressing on AML, STC, AMR
• Change AMR to Wat if require more offence on right flank otherwise keep Wsu for better defence

Hope this helps. 

[takeballpassball]

14 minutes ago, Starsurfer said:

 

By keeping your setup intact as much as possible, I'd begin by making the following tweaks then adjust further accordingly to opponent during match:

• Add a split block pressing on AML, STC, AMR
• Change AMR to Wat if require more offence on right flank otherwise keep Wsu for better defence

Hope this helps. 

Thanks man.

Can I ask why you got rid of the counter press and the more urgent pressing?
Sorry I am not sure what you mean by a 'split block pressing'. Could you explain?

[Starsurfer]

1 hour ago, takeballpassball said:

Thanks man.

Can I ask why you got rid of the counter press and the more urgent pressing?
Sorry I am not sure what you mean by a 'split block pressing'. Could you explain?

This is to help keep your formation intact defensively. In general I wouldn't recommend using counter-press for bottom heavy formations such as 4123, especially with positive mentality.

Implement split block pressing on AML, STC, AMR by increasing their respective player instructions' pressing intensity to more urgent. The idea is to instruct only the front players to actively press the opposition instead of the whole team (as with enabling counter-press and/or more urgent pressing).

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, takeballpassball said:

This setup of roles and duties looks overly sterile attacking-wise. Here is how I would tweak it:

DLFsu

IFat                                  Wsu

DLPsu    CMat

DMde

WBsu    CDde  BPDde   FBsu

SKde/su

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, takeballpassball said:

I also keep getting caught out with long balls

Higher defensive line + more urgent pressing + high team mentality (positive) combined make you more aggressive in defense than your players can handle. In other words, your players are obviously not good enough to successfully execute such manner of defending. 

Plus the counter-press (on top of the above).

[takeballpassball]

27 minutes ago, Starsurfer said:

This is to help keep your formation intact defensively. In general I wouldn't recommend using counter-press for bottom heavy formations such as 4123, especially with positive mentality.

Implement split block pressing on AML, STC, AMR by increasing their respective player instructions' pressing intensity to more urgent. The idea is to instruct only the front players to actively press the opposition instead of the whole team (as with enabling counter-press and/or more urgent pressing).

I get you! Makes sense really. I have noticed that my midfield usually seem to get dragged all over the place and opposition players can easily pass and dribble through me at times. So maybe this will make me more structured and hard to break down, whilst keeping pressure at the top end of the pitch.

14 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

This setup of roles and duties looks overly sterile attacking-wise. Here is how I would tweak it:

DLFsu

IFat                                  Wsu

DLPsu    CMat

DMde

WBsu    CDde  BPDde   FBsu

SKde/su

 

10 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Higher defensive line + more urgent pressing + high team mentality (positive) combined make you more aggressive in defense than your players can handle. In other words, your players are obviously not good enough to successfully execute such manner of defending. 

Plus the counter-press (on top of the above).

Thank you. I have made the changes you have suggested, and also the changes Starsurfer has suggested. I will see how well it goes and take it from there.
 

I am beginning to think that my players just can't play this sort of tactic just yet. I will possibly change to a more direct (not long ball), counter attacking style until I build a squad with better attributes suited to a possession style game.

[Starsurfer]

1 minute ago, takeballpassball said:

I get you! Makes sense really. I have noticed that my midfield usually seem to get dragged all over the place and opposition players can easily pass and dribble through me at times. So maybe this will make me more structured and hard to break down, whilst keeping pressure at the top end of the pitch.

Have fun! 

[takeballpassball]

2 minutes ago, Starsurfer said:

Have fun! 

Haha stressful fun! 

[denen123]

On 11/05/2020 at 14:52, Starsurfer said:

 

By keeping your setup intact as much as possible, I'd begin by making the following tweaks then adjust further accordingly to opponent during match:

• Add a split block pressing on AML, STC, AMR
• Change AMR to Wat if require more offence on right flank otherwise keep Wsu for better defence

Hope this helps. 

Off topic, I'd like to commend you for this short, yet insightful post. I think giving templates helps a lot.

[Starsurfer]

6 hours ago, denen123 said:

Off topic, I'd like to commend you for this short, yet insightful post. I think giving templates helps a lot.

I am glad you like it.