Will anyone be buying FM21?

[Tony Wright 747]

47 minutes ago, wspence_uk said:

Ive bought every year since championship manager italia and for the last 4-5 years its gotten harder to justify unfortunately, theres been a huge lack of innovation for a while now and more than ever im surprised one of the big publishers has not taken a decent shot at making a valid competitor cause this series is ripe for the taking. Sure it sells a ton every year still but with a competent competitor they'd steal a ton of players and bring back lapsed fans of the past.

Even with this in mind I am sure i will still buy FM21 but god do I wish a had a choice, hell the competition might finally light a fire under SI to add decent features besides redundant crap like social media and trash player interactions of guess the right answer.

The problem is that football management games are a fairly small market, and it would appear that the big publishers are reluctant to take a punt on it

[GuitarMan]

19 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

The problem is that football management games are a fairly small market, and it would appear that the big publishers are reluctant to take a punt on it

EA failed with FIFA manager, EIDOS failed with Championship Manager... which other big studios/publishers would you see having a go? 

[steam just is]

SI has such a powerful network and decades of understanding the intricacies of making football management work on a computer. It’s almost unsurpassable. It’s also a niche market so the amount of investment needed will not reap immediate rewards. I’m sorry to say but the only way competition would have a chance is through a champ man football manager split at SI. I can’t see anyone else reaching their level.

So there won’t be competition anytime soon. Which is why healthy constructive criticism is essential.

[wspence_uk]

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

A few points on that.  What exactly would be this "huge innovation" that you feel they're missing out on?

And how exactly do you figure they are "ripe for the taking" given that anyone new to the genre would be literal decades behind in a few areas.  Not to mention that there was a huge publisher who took a shot at them, and they ultimately failed so hard they left the market entirely.  

And you say they'd "steal a ton of players", but from where?  Currently they're likely at saturation - people who want to play football management games will play FM.  Those who don't, won't.  Of course they're likely to have a minority group that would buy if changes are made, but there isn't this huge untapped market sitting out there.

The competition argument always sounds great, but people can quote economics 101 classes all they like, but it's nowhere near as simple as people like to make out.

the transfer system has barely been changed in years most top clubs these days operate by dealing with agents and agreeing contracts before agreeing fees with clubs (see thiago and LFC) , in game organic events are rare and it all feels a bit boring year on year, how about a 'permadeath' mode, no reloading saves to do over that cup final, director of football/owner mode, brainstorming features is not hard but they really dont need to innovate, cause they havnt had their feet to the fire for such a long time. and on the point of where the players come from, a lot of my friends that used to play barely buy every once every 4/5 years now, or not at all, there is a lot of lapsed fans that want the in depth  the spreadsheet game but not the player interaction/social media guff etc hence why older versions are kept alive through modding (the older versions even have cleaner UI compared to how cluttered the current UI has become).

Edited September 17, 2020 by wspence_uk

[DeanMon]

If I am disappointed with being FM'ed one, I am disappointed with the attitude of SI ten.

They have a "valid" reason for every complaint about the match engine. To them, the game is fabolous, well-oiled, fine-tuned, proximate to perfection, that if there is anything wrong, it is the gamers. 

"It is not our fault, it is YOUR fault."

Probably purchase with 75% discount if the review on Steam is Mostly Positive or above, until there is a better franchise rising.

Edited September 17, 2020 by DeanMon

[d_e4life]

I'm still playing and enjoying FM18, so no plans to upgrade unless something major is added. I'm pretty happy just updating 18 each season.

[Tony Wright 747]

2 hours ago, GuitarMan said:

EA failed with FIFA manager, EIDOS failed with Championship Manager... which other big studios/publishers would you see having a go? 

EIDOS failed because they had the name but not the code, EA failed because they were reluctant to commit  more resources to FIFA manager for reasons I have already stated, and for that reason I doubt if anyone else will

[JR866Gunner]

13 hours ago, DeanMon said:

If I am disappointed with being FM'ed one, I am disappointed with the attitude of SI ten.

They have a "valid" reason for every complaint about the match engine. To them, the game is fabolous, well-oiled, fine-tuned, proximate to perfection, that if there is anything wrong, it is the gamers. 

"It is not our fault, it is YOUR fault."

Probably purchase with 75% discount if the review on Steam is Mostly Positive or above, until there is a better franchise rising.

Not that I am looking to cause debate but Miles has said on numerous occasions he realises the match engine isnt perfect but they look to improve it year on year. They dont claim to have the Fifa engine in terms of graphics and I honestly quite like that. As far as match engine bugs they do what they can to eliminate them but there will always be times where they crop up as a result of fixing another bug.

This match engine kind of reminds me of the replays of Premier Manager back in the day, I loved watching back that recap of the result after it played out in Text only. I would love to see that style of video highlight. Plus the graphics whilst were low quality - were ideal for that nature.

 

[DeanMon]

6 minutes ago, JR866Gunner said:

Not that I am looking to cause debate but Miles has said on numerous occasions he realises the match engine isnt perfect but they look to improve it year on year. They dont claim to have the Fifa engine in terms of graphics and I honestly quite like that. As far as match engine bugs they do what they can to eliminate them but there will always be times where they crop up as a result of fixing another bug.

This match engine kind of reminds me of the replays of Premier Manager back in the day, I loved watching back that recap of the result after it played out in Text only. I would love to see that style of video highlight. Plus the graphics whilst were low quality - were ideal for that nature.

 

Can you show me his post? It is hard to find the situation where SI admit they !@&^$&!^*&. ^^

From my experience:

1) Greenwood (Finishing 17, Composure 16, Technique 15, normal body language and performance), 3 games, shot 10 (some of them 1-on-1), on target 9, score 0. SI:"Your chance is not clear-cut!"

2) Andone (First Touch 13, Dribbling 13, Pace 14, nervous), received a GK counter-kick, ran through 1-meter channel between Tuanzebe and Maguire, beat Henderson 1-on-1. SI:"See? A clear-cut chance!"

[dolph11]

Here's why I think the game is ridiculous, well, not the the game, the ME. There is no way anybody with any ounce of credence or truth can say it's been improved for definite. They can have the opinion that is has but it's not concrete. This is the problem, it should be obvious. It has most definitely stagnated, or, for want of a better argument, possibly increased in some areas and declined in others. 

A prime example is defending corners. I leave both my full-backs back as cover. Both are fairly rapid (both pace and acceleration over 17) yet they get blitzed by a lone striker who is slower. How is this physically possible? My strikers are never capable of the same! They have to run for a little while and then hold the ball up for support! It's beyond infuriating. Another, my defenders allow the opposition to bring down a ball unchallenged from a keepers' long kick! It's happened so many times I've lost count! That isn't tactical. Neither can I lament them for it! 

Finally, I've added pictures from my Copa Libertadores victory. It took me ten seasons to build a team and get there. I absolutely outplayed them. We were the underdogs and I do feel like my pre-game team meeting helped more so than anything else. I took the pressure off them. After 15 minutes we had missed two 'sitters' and hit the post. I knew where the game was heading. We had some good opportunities as the game went on but it started becoming farcical. We managed to go ahead through a penalty; relief! It didn't last long, my defender dwelled on the ball with two teammates in close proximity but he decided not to pass and it got stolen from him and their forward went one-on-one and finished with ease. My strikers usually miss. I digress, the game went on and we churned chance after chance. Alas, it went to penalties after extra-time. By this point I didn't care if we won or not. It was ridiculous to watch. We did win. I had done it, I had won the biggest prize in South American football with my small team from Uruguay! Quite a feat, some might say. However, it was soulless. A hollow victory, of sorts, and a reflection of the game in general. I had become so perplexed watching it that the result had become a non-entity. 

My tactics work, obviously. I have to tinker with them and I have to use shouts. It's not a plug and play tactic. I've changed the role of my striker numerous times to try and get the best out of him. He still has been my 3rd top scorer in the last 3 seasons despite me winning the league on all 3 occasions. I have been advised it's because I play with an attacking mentality - is that hard-coded into the game? If you play attacking your striker will miss lots of opportunities but your inside-forwards will be more accurate? Do attributes not come into it? I have so many questions that I can not translate well over text that I could in person. 

Will I buy the next instalment? That depends. The ME must be improved. No more flashy, gimmicky additions. Club vision? I can do without it. Player interaction? I could do without it. Why? Because for me I want what I put into my tactics to translate better onto the pitch. Club vision and player interactions at the moment are basic, at best. Media interaction hasn't changed in years either! Don't even start me on staff advice! 

 

[signup]

My answer is no, as I feel disappointed as a customer.

I have a feeling, that FM become a hybrid of worst traits of subscription model and buy-once model; I could swallow paying high price year after year, even if the upgrades were cosmetic or there were just pretending to be upgrades (like dev center), but this year I'm fed up. ME is not good enough, the tactical part of the game seems neglected to me, graphical updates besides menus doesn't exist and what makes me fuming, after 9 months of constant, precise feedback about what is broken in ME, there were hardly any updates and attitude of SI towards this is just unacceptable.

And now the game is free, what occurs to me like a move to give up on old, paying fanbase, that is making trouble with their discontent and get a new, less 'sunday' clients and it never worked for anyone long-term. 

So unless FM21 is meaningful revolution in aspects that are salt of this game and not menu graphics for clicking the same meaningless bs over & over again in 'press conference' I will pass and just update squads in my broken FM20, as I can't longer justify model of paying for game more to support developer, than buy an actual product if I'm getting no value or even negative one in return.

Edited September 18, 2020 by signup

[DeanMon]

1 hour ago, dolph11 said:

Here's why I think the game is ridiculous, well, not the the game, the ME. There is no way anybody with any ounce of credence or truth can say it's been improved for definite. They can have the opinion that is has but it's not concrete. This is the problem, it should be obvious. It has most definitely stagnated, or, for want of a better argument, possibly increased in some areas and declined in others. 

A prime example is defending corners. I leave both my full-backs back as cover. Both are fairly rapid (both pace and acceleration over 17) yet they get blitzed by a lone striker who is slower. How is this physically possible? My strikers are never capable of the same! They have to run for a little while and then hold the ball up for support! It's beyond infuriating. Another, my defenders allow the opposition to bring down a ball unchallenged from a keepers' long kick! It's happened so many times I've lost count! That isn't tactical. Neither can I lament them for it! 

Finally, I've added pictures from my Copa Libertadores victory. It took me ten seasons to build a team and get there. I absolutely outplayed them. We were the underdogs and I do feel like my pre-game team meeting helped more so than anything else. I took the pressure off them. After 15 minutes we had missed two 'sitters' and hit the post. I knew where the game was heading. We had some good opportunities as the game went on but it started becoming farcical. We managed to go ahead through a penalty; relief! It didn't last long, my defender dwelled on the ball with two teammates in close proximity but he decided not to pass and it got stolen from him and their forward went one-on-one and finished with ease. My strikers usually miss. I digress, the game went on and we churned chance after chance. Alas, it went to penalties after extra-time. By this point I didn't care if we won or not. It was ridiculous to watch. We did win. I had done it, I had won the biggest prize in South American football with my small team from Uruguay! Quite a feat, some might say. However, it was soulless. A hollow victory, of sorts, and a reflection of the game in general. I had become so perplexed watching it that the result had become a non-entity. 

My tactics work, obviously. I have to tinker with them and I have to use shouts. It's not a plug and play tactic. I've changed the role of my striker numerous times to try and get the best out of him. He still has been my 3rd top scorer in the last 3 seasons despite me winning the league on all 3 occasions. I have been advised it's because I play with an attacking mentality - is that hard-coded into the game? If you play attacking your striker will miss lots of opportunities but your inside-forwards will be more accurate? Do attributes not come into it? I have so many questions that I can not translate well over text that I could in person. 

Will I buy the next instalment? That depends. The ME must be improved. No more flashy, gimmicky additions. Club vision? I can do without it. Player interaction? I could do without it. Why? Because for me I want what I put into my tactics to translate better onto the pitch. Club vision and player interactions at the moment are basic, at best. Media interaction hasn't changed in years either! Don't even start me on staff advice! 

 

OMG...

Time: 210 minutes

Shot: Human 11-2 ME

CCC: Human 10-0 ME

Score: Human 2-2 ME

Let me conclude: FM is not a skill-based game anymore. At the core, now it is gambling like roulette or blackjack. Screw tactics, pep talks, instructions, shouts... just throw 11 random men out there and pray for some luck or miracles. Because whatever you do, ME can still sucker-punch you where it is least expected and steal what you deserve.

This is one of the reasons I feel less guilty of save scumming, "You cheated first, ME!". But then boredom catches up, and I spend more time ranting on the forum rather than playing in the game.

Edited September 18, 2020 by DeanMon

[themadsheep2001]

Just to be clear, there is already a feedback thread. Let's keep to the topic at hand

[themadsheep2001]

As for purchasing: I never lay money down on anything without hearing and seeing more about it, but hard to argue I won't given its without fail my most value for money purchase every year. Would have to get a hell of a lot wrong for me personally not to and I haven't seen that yet. 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, DeanMon said:

I spend more time ranting on the forum rather than playing in the game.

Then instead of ranting, make a thread asking for help over on the Tactics Forum.  Whilst not everything can be fixed by changing your system, a lot can be and you'll never know until you try.  Post your detailed tactic and some context of the type of issues you are having over there.  What have you got to lose?

[JR866Gunner]

3 hours ago, DeanMon said:

Can you show me his post? It is hard to find the situation where SI admit they !@&^$&!^*&. ^^

From my experience:

1) Greenwood (Finishing 17, Composure 16, Technique 15, normal body language and performance), 3 games, shot 10 (some of them 1-on-1), on target 9, score 0. SI:"Your chance is not clear-cut!"

2) Andone (First Touch 13, Dribbling 13, Pace 14, nervous), received a GK counter-kick, ran through 1-meter channel between Tuanzebe and Maguire, beat Henderson 1-on-1. SI:"See? A clear-cut chance!"

He has said it on Twitter I am sure, not in these forums I doubt. I may have even heard him talk about it in an interview. It wasnt him saying our ME is pants but that he admits it isnt yet perfect.

[forameuss]

16 hours ago, wspence_uk said:

the transfer system has barely been changed in years most top clubs these days operate by dealing with agents and agreeing contracts before agreeing fees with clubs (see thiago and LFC) , in game organic events are rare and it all feels a bit boring year on year, how about a 'permadeath' mode, no reloading saves to do over that cup final, director of football/owner mode, brainstorming features is not hard but they really dont need to innovate, cause they havnt had their feet to the fire for such a long time. and on the point of where the players come from, a lot of my friends that used to play barely buy every once every 4/5 years now, or not at all, there is a lot of lapsed fans that want the in depth  the spreadsheet game but not the player interaction/social media guff etc hence why older versions are kept alive through modding (the older versions even have cleaner UI compared to how cluttered the current UI has become).

First, thanks for actually engaging.

The bolded part, I couldn't agree with more.  The game has always been about letting your imagination fill in a lot of the blanks, but in recent years it has gotten more and more sterile and po-faced.  You see people posting about saves going 100, 150, 200 years into the future, and then loling themselves to death that some jobber club is now the biggest in the world.  But it all just means nothing, it's all just sums running over and over again with nothing really behind them.  And that's not bad, exactly, it's just...well, a bit boring sometimes.  I'd like to see them make the game a bit more unpredictable, but it's hard to put my finger on exactly what.  

My main point wasn't about whether SI do want to innovate or not, it's that there isn't really much you can do in the way of innovation in the game as it stands.  If you're sticking to being a Football Manager - which they've always said they want to do, avoiding any superfluous stuff outside of a manager's job - then there isn't really anything huge left to do.  It's all about refinement, particularly in the match engine.  And for every person that says nothing new has been added (when there has been), there will be someone complaining if there actually was nothing added.  

And as a final point, I understand you'll know people who fit your group, but that doesn't mean it's a widespread opinion.  Again, I'm not saying they don't exist.  There will be lapsed fans out there.  But for the most part, if you want a football management game, you buy FM.  I'm not convinced there's this huge group SI are missing out on that they can actually bring around.

[forameuss]

3 hours ago, DeanMon said:

Can you show me his post? It is hard to find the situation where SI admit they !@&^$&!^*&. ^^

 

Why do you need proof?  Common sense would suggest that they're never "happy" with the match engine as it's a constant work in progress.  The nature of a complex system like that means there will always be issues needing fixing, which will likely lead to further issues.  And on and on we go.

To suggest that that is somehow admission of anything is completely wrong.  Unless it's just admitting that they are indeed working on a piece of software.  This happens.

Edited September 18, 2020 by forameuss

[Svenc]

Wonder what the long-term plans are regarding feedback and testing of such, e.g. CCCs. It's clear it's not working that well; it's also clear that the average expectation seems to be a CCC is a goal that should have been (when in football analysis chances that are considered better than 50/50 are very rare). This seems crucial, in parts as these debates are the absolute same they've been for like ten years plus running; and they still cause the absolutely same frustrations.

Meanwhile, the feedback that's in there proactively drives players away from every playing defensive spoilsports football themselves, e.g. "never having this the other way round". Quite the contrary, it encourages to turn matches into contests of which team had the most of x on a spreadsheet, when there has always been a bit more to it than this.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Svenc

[Death Ball]

On one hand, I barely played FM19 and though I planned to play a lot more in FM20, it depended on an idea that requires a lot of prep work and I got a heavy flu after another that made me unable to do anything heavy for two months and half. Then my graphics card died, for reasons I was led to think it was corrupted start of Windows and in restoring past disk image it was old and lost a lot of stuff. So I'm now rebuilding some prep files. The result is I've barely touched FM20 again this version.

So in one hand I thought I'd skip FM21 and do things in FM20, on the other when I get that done I'd like to do it in the current FM so that'd be buying FM21. On the other hand FM is still a series that doesn't make system requirements shoot up exponentially like others do or did, so with expecting it not be too easy for them I feel kind of wanting to show my support buying it anyway,

[WilltheWolf92]

Maybe if they start listening to their customers for once, last 3/4  years is just pathetic in my opinion, just went the same like FIFA does, people do buy it anyway. FM and FIFA need some serious competition cause they can't lose anyone to another game.

[DeanMon]

2 hours ago, forameuss said:

Common sense would suggest that they're never "happy" with the match engine as it's a constant work in progress.

Really? I have joined the forum recently, but in the topics I have seen so far, the responses usually are:"It is your tactics", "They parked the bus, you played attacking, of course you can't score", "They countered you, 1 ST vs 2DCs, of course it was clear-cut and they can score".

I have never seen:"Uhm, I agree with you that crosses are a little over-powered this year...", "Uhm, let us compare collected 1-on-1 data from gamers and compare with statistics with Opta to see whether 1-on-1 is favored to GK or not, and come back to you soon."

I believe there is no perfect game and I can live with it: Even the legendarily balanced game like Starcraft 1 still received balancing updates for decades. However, what I feel is SI seeks explanation favoring ME first, rather than noting and checking whether it is the imbalance of ME first. "Where there is a complaint, there is a mistake of gamers" is the mentality here. The ME is "accomplished" by default, anything against it is a mistake of gamers.

Edited September 18, 2020 by DeanMon

[forameuss]

7 minutes ago, DeanMon said:

Really? I have just joined the forum, but in the topics I have seen so far, the responses usually are:"It is your tactics", "They parked the bus, you played attacking, of course you can't score", "They countered you, 1 ST vs 2DCs, of course it was clear-cut and they can score".

I have never seen:"Uhm, I agree with you that crosses are a little over-powered this year...", "Uhm, let us compare collected 1-on-1 data from gamers and compare with statistics with Opta to see whether 1-on-1 is favored to GK or not, and come back to you soon."

I believe there is no perfect game and I can live with it: Even the legendarily balanced game like Starcraft 1 still received balancing updates for many decades. However, what I feel is SI seeks explanation favoring ME first, rather than noting and checking whether it is the imbalance of ME first. "Where there is a complaint, there is a mistake of gamers" is the mentality here. The ME is "accomplished" by default, anything against it is a mistake of gamers.

Where to start...

So, believe it or not, it can be both.  Users can - and often are - completely wrong.  A lot of the time "it's your tactics" is perfectly valid, and usually the more annoyed you are by someone saying it, the more likely it is to be true.  That doesn't mean that there's cases where the code isn't representing what it should.  There's plenty of those, and always will be, because the engine - and the game - are flawed.  I expect if you were actually talking to an SI developer, they'd say the same.  Just like if you asked ANY developer who worked on ANY system, they'd say the same about that.

Now go visit the bugs forum, and count how many times they say "it's your tactics".  I imagine you'll be looking a while.  Because that forum is the EXACT place you should be going to with issues like this.  The exact place where they would "note and check" whether there's problems in the ME.  

Seems like you've just got preconceived notions you want to be true, and won't see otherwise.  Fair enough, doesn't make it correct though.

Edited September 18, 2020 by forameuss

[DeanMon]

22 hours ago, herne79 said:

Then instead of ranting, make a thread asking for help over on the Tactics Forum.  Whilst not everything can be fixed by changing your system, a lot can be and you'll never know until you try.  Post your detailed tactic and some context of the type of issues you are having over there.  What have you got to lose?

According to the screenshots, the type of issues we have is RNG seems to mess with us so much that many gamers think the game is scripted.

So, tell me, what kind of tactical advice we need to be more lucky.

Edited September 19, 2020 by DeanMon

[WilltheWolf92]

20 hours ago, DeanMon said:

Really? I have joined the forum recently, but in the topics I have seen so far, the responses usually are:"It is your tactics", "They parked the bus, you played attacking, of course you can't score", "They countered you, 1 ST vs 2DCs, of course it was clear-cut and they can score".

I have never seen:"Uhm, I agree with you that crosses are a little over-powered this year...", "Uhm, let us compare collected 1-on-1 data from gamers and compare with statistics with Opta to see whether 1-on-1 is favored to GK or not, and come back to you soon."

I believe there is no perfect game and I can live with it: Even the legendarily balanced game like Starcraft 1 still received balancing updates for decades. However, what I feel is SI seeks explanation favoring ME first, rather than noting and checking whether it is the imbalance of ME first. "Where there is a complaint, there is a mistake of gamers" is the mentality here. The ME is "accomplished" by default, anything against it is a mistake of gamers.

The Gegenpress is defen to OP or else I'm just the new Jurgen Klopp 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, DeanMon said:

According to the screenshots, the type of issues we have is RNG seems to mess with us so much that many gamers think the game is scripted.

So, tell me, what kind of tactical advice we need to be more lucky.

Without knowing what tactical system you are using nobody is able to offer you any specific advice, which is why I suggested you head over to the tactics forum, post detail of your system and someone may be able to offer some ideas.  No guarantees but like I said what have you got to lose? 

One thing I can guarantee however is that the game is not scripted.

[Lexis]

Outside of ME, FM is pretty solid. It's the ME that makes it or breaks it most often because it's simply where all the work comes together.

I think a huge part of why the ME isn't making ground breaking progress is simply due to the specs SI decide the game for. If the resources used by the game would increase, it would allow for much more complexity, physics and such in the match engine itself.  Luckily, any decent computer these days has much more power at it's disposal than FM uses. Sadly, SI still decides to make this game for 150$ PCs.

Even outside the ME, more power used => more complex AI.

We are still using the same match engine from 10 years ago, updated, rehashed and modified but still the same at it's core. You can only take it so far. Every year we are seeing a very slight increase in graphics due to better textures and such, slightly better animations....and a rehash of the ME (better/worse scoring, better/worse defending and similar). Not more realistic, just a different meta. This year gegen is OP. Next year maybe Tiki Taka will be OP. Not realistic, just a different meta. I keep seeing people tell others you should play your wingers narrower so they don't always shoot in the side netting. No. you should play your wingers however you want to. The ME should be a platform to allow you to express exactly the football you want to with your success depending on your skill, ability and your players. Wide Wingers. Inside forwards, no wingers, whatever. The moment the ME forces you into a certain tactic because the other options don't work, the game has failed in achieving simulation.

This year one on ones have been a disaster.

LE:

Here are the Football Manager 2020 System Requirements (Minimum)

• CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (64-bit), Intel Core 2 or AMD Athlon 64 – 2.2 GHz +
• CPU SPEED: Info
• RAM: 2 GB
• OS: Windows 7 (SP1), 8/8.1, 10 (Update 1803/April 2018 or later) – 64-bit
• VIDEO CARD: Intel GMA X4500, NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT or AMD/ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3650 – 256MB VRAM
• PIXEL SHADER: 4.0
• VERTEX SHADER: 4.0
• FREE DISK SPACE: 7 GB
• DEDICATED VIDEO RAM: 256 MB

 

These are what FM20 use as a minimum. Judge for yourself :)) . A decent PC these days has at least 10 times the power of that in most aspects. Windows 7 is no longer even supported just to give perspective. The specs above is simply brick-level by any decent standard today, not even going into gaming - standards. They likely don't even have that much lifetime left in them if people still have components this old :))) yet they are building games for them.

At some point, I hope we'll start living 10-15 years in the past.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Lexis

[GuitarMan]

@Lexis

something to bear in mind most fm players are not your typical gamers. For instance my laptop barely met those specs when it died this year... I’m a long time fm player. 
 

Now I have replaced with a high end laptop, but again my aim is for this to last me a large number of years as the only game I play is fm (which I am well over-spec for now) 

Im sure somewhere SI will have info on the spec of machines the game is played on and the number of users they may lose if the specs increased too drastically...

[Lexis]

1 minute ago, GuitarMan said:

@Lexis

something to bear in mind most fm players are not your typical gamers. For instance my laptop barely met those specs when it died this year... I’m a long time fm player. 
 

Now I have replaced with a high end laptop, but again my aim is for this to last me a large number of years as the only game I play is fm (which I am well over-spec for now) 

Im sure somewhere SI will have info on the spec of machines the game is played on and the number of users they may lose if the specs increased too drastically...

Hey,

Yep, I am absolutely certain they have.

You upgraded because of hardware failure, not because of the game no longer running.

However, by the same coin, they can't keep making this for rigs that are 15 years old. At some point some users will have to upgrade, it's just the way it goes in this industry. It does NOT necessarly mean they would lose those customers. They are going to see the same specs because there s no need to upgrade if those players only play FM. I mean, FM overly generous in that regard. 

Even if the requirements were upped 3 times from what they are currently, we are talking about Office computers at best these days, inexpensive by any means compared to even decent gaming specs.

[limey150781]

SI have earnt another shot. I've spent 1000s hours playing the FM games and 20 is the only one I have stopped playing by March. That is solely down to the ME. Every other aspect, for me, was the most immersive and well balanced FM in history  I just won't buy it on release day this year. 

[Lexis]

If you want the best experience, it's usually the best approach to buy it on patch 3.0. If I really like the feature set and the effort the team is putting in the new version, I'm buying it up front to show more support. This year I bought it like one month ago or so, was extremely disappointed with that iteration. Hoping for the best on 21.

[CFuller]

3 hours ago, Lexis said:

You upgraded because of hardware failure, not because of the game no longer running.

However, by the same coin, they can't keep making this for rigs that are 15 years old. At some point some users will have to upgrade, it's just the way it goes in this industry. It does NOT necessarly mean they would lose those customers. They are going to see the same specs because there s no need to upgrade if those players only play FM. I mean, FM overly generous in that regard. 

Even if the requirements were upped 3 times from what they are currently, we are talking about Office computers at best these days, inexpensive by any means compared to even decent gaming specs.

It's interesting you say that. My laptop is 10 years old, and when I got it in 2010, it was one of the most powerful gaming laptops on the market. Yet even after RAM and SSD upgrades, it could not run FM17, let alone FM19 or FM20. In just SIX years, it was outdated when it came to meeting Football Manager's specs.

I also have a pretty powerful desktop that's 5 years old and can run FM20 fine, and it'll likely be okay for a good few FMs yet.

But that's not the point. My point is they're not making it for 15-year-old rigs; I'd reckon only the most powerful PCs from even 10 years back could run FM20 at a moderate level.

As GuitarMan says, SI have data showing what hardware FM is run on, and they will up the demands as they see fit to make the game look/run better without making it unplayable for too many users. There's no point bringing FM's graphics to FIFA/PES standard if half your fanbase can't run it. Not all of us can easily afford to buy a new PC, especially in this climate.

[Lexis]

3 minutes ago, CFuller said:

It's interesting you say that. My laptop is 10 years old, and when I got it in 2010, it was one of the most powerful gaming laptops on the market. Yet even after RAM and SSD upgrades, it could not run FM17, let alone FM19 or FM20. In just SIX years, it was outdated when it came to meeting Football Manager's specs.

I also have a pretty powerful desktop that's 5 years old and can run FM20 fine, and it'll likely be okay for a good few FMs yet.

But that's not the point. My point is they're not making it for 15-year-old rigs; I'd reckon only the most powerful PCs from even 10 years back could run FM20 at a moderate level.

As GuitarMan says, SI have data showing what hardware FM is run on, and they will up the demands as they see fit to make the game look/run better without making it unplayable for too many users. There's no point bringing FM's graphics to FIFA/PES standard if half your fanbase can't run it. Not all of us can easily afford to buy a new PC, especially in this climate.

One thing to take into consideration is laptops will generally perform worse than PCs, given the same components counterparts.

15 years, 10 years, whatever. The point still stands, we are extremely behind in terms of resources used.

Absolutely agree. In terms of match engine graphics, I think FIFA/PES standard is incredibly overrealistic.

I would honestly be extremely delighted if at some point we'll have FIFA 11-level graphics. That should not require 1070s or anything of the sort, you should still be able to play that with very decent rigs.

And I understand some people will fall behind on specs, but that's just how PC gaming goes, hell console gaming as well, given enough time and new generation of consoles. It's just the way it is, upgrades are inevitable.

I know they are bringing the specs a little bit higher every time, I just think that increment is way too slow for what an annual release cycle should be. But that's just my opinion.

[Svenc]

21 minutes ago, CFuller said:

It's interesting you say that. My laptop is 10 years old, and when I got it in 2010, it was one of the most powerful gaming laptops on the market. Yet even after RAM and SSD upgrades, it could not run FM17, let alone FM19 or FM20. In just SIX years, it was outdated when it came to meeting Football Manager's specs.

Out of interest: How's that? The game's min requirements are twenty years old Pentium 4s with 2 GB of RAM. You couldn't buy one of those in 2010 as powerful gaming systems. If the OS, RAM and everything else was being halfway kept up to date -- that leaves only the 3d as a hurdle, which is optional. Just wondering, mind! 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Svenc

[DeanMon]

9 hours ago, herne79 said:

Without knowing what tactical system you are using nobody is able to offer you any specific advice, which is why I suggested you head over to the tactics forum, post detail of your system and someone may be able to offer some ideas.  No guarantees but like I said what have you got to lose? 

One thing I can guarantee however is that the game is not scripted.

I said it before, now I say it again: Your game might not be scripted, but whatever definition of SI for CCC is horribly @$&£ up. It is severely misleading, causing the perception of a really one-sided game favoring human, only to leave us wonder:"HOW COULD WE NOT WIN WITH THAT DOMINANCE OF CCC?".

The recent real games I see that kind of dominance finished like this:

BM 8-2 FCB

BM 8-0 S04

How could I never win that much over 10 years of FM? I never had that dominance?

Open your book, show me one occassion that one team had that dominance over 210 MINUTES (!) but could not win, and I rest my case.

Edited September 19, 2020 by DeanMon

[Svenc]

11 minutes ago, DeanMon said:

Open your book, show me one occassion that one team had that dominance over 210 MINUTES (!) but could not win, and I rest my case.

https://understat.com/match/9887
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1317965/Live/Italy-Serie-A-2018-2019-Atalanta-Empoli

47 shots, 18 on target, at least 8 chances that actual football analysis classes as "big" and no win. 

The in-game flaw is that it's too easy to get shots on target that justified or not don't result into a goal that regularly (in particular headers); plus that the in-game CCC sucks. Actually, it always has sucked. 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Svenc

[DeanMon]

6 minutes ago, Svenc said:

https://understat.com/match/9887
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1317965/Live/Italy-Serie-A-2018-2019-Atalanta-Empoli

47 shots, 18 on target, at least 8 chances that actual football analysis classes as "big" and no win. 

The in-game flaw is that it's too easy to get shots on target that justified or not don't result into a goal that regularly (in particular headers); plus that the in-game CCC sucks. Actually, it always has sucked. 

 

I think I emphasized 210 minutes, implying the law of large numbers. I have seen many 90-minute example before, so it is not that rare. But here is a 210-minute duration! 2.33 game! No underdog can last that long under this dominance.

[CFuller]

22 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Out of interest: How's that? The game's min requirements are twenty years old Pentium 4s with 2 GB of RAM. You couldn't buy one of those in 2010 as powerful gaming systems. If the OS, RAM and everything else was being halfway kept up to date -- that leaves only the 3d as a hurdle, which is optional. Just wondering, mind! 

It's an Intel Core i3 (2.13 GHz) so yeah... probably not one of THE best, to be honest, but we are talking about a 2010 processor that couldn't run the newest FM in 2016. My GPU probably doesn't meet the requirements

Also, could a 20-year-old Pentium 4 actually run FM20? Maybe a later Pentium 4 from the mid-2000s could...

[Lexis]

Just now, CFuller said:

It's an Intel Core i3 (2.13 GHz) so yeah... probably not one of THE best, to be honest, but we are talking about a 2010 processor that couldn't run the newest FM in 2016. My GPU probably doesn't meet the requirements

Also, could a 20-year-old Pentium 4 actually run FM20? Maybe a later Pentium 4 from the mid-2000s could...

I would imagine one league and 2D?

[herne79]

3 minutes ago, DeanMon said:

I said it before, now I say it again: Your game might not be scripted, but whatever definition of SI for CCC is horribly @$&£ up. It is severely misleading, causing the perception of a really one-sided game favoring human, only to leave us wonder:"HOW COULD WE NOT WIN WITH THAT DOMINANCE OF CCC?".

Open your book, show me one occassion that one team had that dominance over 210 MINUTES (!) but could not win, and I rest my case.

I've suggested you head over to the tactics forum twice now (3 times including this post) and you're still swerving it.  I have no idea why because there is no downside for you - you have nothing to lose and (potentially) everything to gain.  It's your choice of course and good luck to you, but imo you should try.

[CFuller]

Just now, Lexis said:

I would imagine one league and 2D?

No, it literally does not meet the minimum requirements. I mean, I could try installing and running FM20 on it, just to see what would happen... but I'm kinda worried it won't end well.

I'm actually thinking of buying a new laptop (or upgrading my current PC) so I can run FM21 at a high level. And to answer the big question... yes, I do plan to buy FM21. I finally caved in and bought FM20 last month, and while that is alright and will tide me over for a few months, I am excited about starting a proper long-term save on the new game.

[Lioncourt]

When every single team you go up against can play superbly organized and disciplined defensive football, the game just becomes an absolute grind, a tedious slog to play. So no, I won't be buying the next installment unfortunately. I feel for SI, it can't be easy trying to get the balance right on a game as complex as this, but it's just got to the point where for me personally it's not really that enjoyable anymore.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Lioncourt

[DementedHammer]

I've run FM19 on my Intel Atom tablet with 4GB of RAM with a save that had several leagues loaded. it even managed 3D, although I only use 3D for the replays as I prefer 2D. Although I definitely wouldn't recommend it,the performance did exceed my (initially low) expectations. The biggest problem that I encountered was actually the battery usage. Boy did it chew through my battery. 

I still use that tablet for FM20, but these days I do so via Steam streaming from my main desktop PC. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by DementedHammer

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, CFuller said:

It's an Intel Core i3 (2.13 GHz) so yeah... probably not one of THE best, to be honest, but we are talking about a 2010 processor that couldn't run the newest FM in 2016. My GPU probably doesn't meet the requirements

It should still work in 2d/ text commentary if drivers / OS are somewhat up to date. The i3 still surpasses any current requirements, as it's a better/newer chip than both Pentium 4 as well as Core 2 Duo / Athlon 64 required (chips from 2005/2006ish). It likely just wouldn't break any benchmark records though.  

6 hours ago, DeanMon said:

I think I emphasized 210 minutes, implying the law of large numbers. I have seen many 90-minute example before, so it is not that rare. But here is a 210-minute duration! 2.33 game! No underdog can last that long under this dominance.

You went on to quote two more recent 90 minute games (Bayern). dolph's didn't go over 210 minutes, btw. It's over 120 minutes (he took two screenshots of the same match/final leg, one after 90 minutes, one after extra time, at both of which points it was 1-1 level). A bit like... the Bayern Chelsea 2012 CL final. Anyways, this is both off-topic (the hardware enquiry plus the CCC debate, which I'd argue need to be replaced anyhow), so I'll personally keep it at that. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Svenc

[Alannnnn]

It's been the same game the last four years. It's just got a lot more fluff to it, which you eventually ignore anyway.

[forameuss]

9 hours ago, Alannnnn said:

It's been the same game the last four years. Apart from the bits that aren't the same.

Fixed that for you.

[coppicat]

During Covid I bought FM for the first time in 15 years and as a previous addict I was really looking forward to spend time on my guilty pleasure. I am playing Nottingham Forrest and won in the playoffs to get promoted first year. Second year I finished 7th in the Premiership and miraculously won the Carabao Cup . Now in my third season I am maybe going to get a spot in the Europa League. How did I do it? I have no clue as the results seem to come at random. What is even more serious.... I actually didnt have fun. I am so frustrated playing this game that I actually have to remind myself that its all going quite well.  

I play standard tactics and dont check to much online what works and what doesnt. With the results I have had, you would imagine you would have a sense of achievement.... but instead it just seems like hard work all the time and you never have a sense of what works and what doesnt. It actually does seem like the ME is a step ahead of you at all times and you have never been handed the tools to figure out what is actually happening in a game. It also seems like all games you play are balancing on a knifes edge and the slightest little mistake in the eye of the ME will cost you dearly. I mean its plain and simple mind boggling what you encounter over a season. 

For the last couple of months I have spent a ridiculous amount of time on this game cause I was too stubborn to give up. I just couldn't believe that there was not a certain something I had totally missed which made this game so extremely frustrating..... and that's when I finally went online to find out that there were so many others that had that same feeling.

There are many aspects of the game that are nice but nothing works if the core of a game is thoroughly flawed and it this case the ME brings everything down. As in any field of the entertainment industry a computer game has to be judged on one thing only in the very end. That one thing is if its fun ... if you are having a good time. Too this question I can honestly say that this game has not in any way been fun, far from it actually. It has in fact has been extremely frustrating.

Did it get too complicated? Did the programmers want it too realistic? Did nobody focus on "gaming experience". In my opinion the one thing that is certain is that they completely lost the plot on this one. I will certainly not buy FM again... its just not fun. Probably a blessing in disguise that I chose to return to FM in this version as I would be spending way too much time on what was once a great game. Hopefully SI will be able to rectify this, but I wouldnt be at all surprised if they will feel the repercussions of this blunder on the bottom line next year.   

   

    

      

[imabearlol]

FM2020 was the first game I didn't buy since the CM days. As a huge fan of the series it saddened me to see so many negative comments on the game and it was the first of the series I didn't pre-order. I kept waiting for positive reviews so I could finally buy the game but that time just never came, and so I'm still playing and enjoying my save on FM2019. It seems to me that the new features introduced yearly are becoming increasingly less exciting while the bread and butter aspects of the game do not improve and in some cases even go backwards. It's a great shame, but I feel forced to take the same approach with FM2021 as I did with FM2020 and wait until I can get a good picture on whether it would be worth buying or not. I really hope it will be.

Edited September 21, 2020 by imabearlol

[steam just is]

3 hours ago, coppicat said:

During Covid I bought FM for the first time in 15 years and as a previous addict I was really looking forward to spend time on my guilty pleasure. I am playing Nottingham Forrest and won in the playoffs to get promoted first year. Second year I finished 7th in the Premiership and miraculously won the Carabao Cup . Now in my third season I am maybe going to get a spot in the Europa League. How did I do it? I have no clue as the results seem to come at random. What is even more serious.... I actually didnt have fun. I am so frustrated playing this game that I actually have to remind myself that its all going quite well.  

I play standard tactics and dont check to much online what works and what doesnt. With the results I have had, you would imagine you would have a sense of achievement.... but instead it just seems like hard work all the time and you never have a sense of what works and what doesnt. It actually does seem like the ME is a step ahead of you at all times and you have never been handed the tools to figure out what is actually happening in a game. It also seems like all games you play are balancing on a knifes edge and the slightest little mistake in the eye of the ME will cost you dearly. I mean its plain and simple mind boggling what you encounter over a season. 

For the last couple of months I have spent a ridiculous amount of time on this game cause I was too stubborn to give up. I just couldn't believe that there was not a certain something I had totally missed which made this game so extremely frustrating..... and that's when I finally went online to find out that there were so many others that had that same feeling.

There are many aspects of the game that are nice but nothing works if the core of a game is thoroughly flawed and it this case the ME brings everything down. As in any field of the entertainment industry a computer game has to be judged on one thing only in the very end. That one thing is if its fun ... if you are having a good time. Too this question I can honestly say that this game has not in any way been fun, far from it actually. It has in fact has been extremely frustrating.

Did it get too complicated? Did the programmers want it too realistic? Did nobody focus on "gaming experience". In my opinion the one thing that is certain is that they completely lost the plot on this one. I will certainly not buy FM again... its just not fun. Probably a blessing in disguise that I chose to return to FM in this version as I would be spending way too much time on what was once a great game. Hopefully SI will be able to rectify this, but I wouldnt be at all surprised if they will feel the repercussions of this blunder on the bottom line next year.   

   

    

      

Brilliant post. Computer games should be fun. Football in itself is fun, just look at this most recent weekend of PL action. I don’t know what happened or why but the ME traded in spontaneity for functionality. Rather than being a slightly hyper version of football it became a leaden version. I’ve said it before it plays like a game of maths not football and that isn’t realistic it’s just plain boring. 
im sure SI are listening. I’m sure they can see this for themselves. Fingers crossed on 21!

[themadsheep2001]

On 16/09/2020 at 12:25, Svenc said:

@ topic: Hundreds of thousands.

Next.

The biggest test to FM won't be anything to do with feedback, it's going to be how they and everyone else has been impacted by Covid-19

Already getting that new season/new game itch. But have to see what FM looks like first, though spending more time indoors makes me more likely to buy it.