4-3-3 flat and narrow -- how can I avoid hoofball?

[Dj-Voodoo]

With every new FM I try the ME out with my favourite club, so that's Bayern Munich. I'm starting my second season (last season: won the BuLi with record low goals conceded, lost in the first round of the CL, in the quarters of the DFL cup on penalties) and picked up some great players (Vinicius and Haaland, mainly) but I wanted to set a challenge for myself and try to fit in a three-striker formation. I don't like wingers, I find them annoying and I'm trying to offload Kingsley Coman because of it. 

1) How are my instructions? I'm of the camp of less-is-more (especially with big, very skilled squads) but I also need to make sure I'm defensively sound -- I'd rather win 2-0 than 4-1. The club wants to play possession football so I can't hoof it.

2a) How can I fit the three strikers up front?

2b) If I have to resort to a 4-1-2-1-2 diamond, how can I fit in the front three in terms of roles? Müller would likely be the AM in that case. 

2c) I can play with a real flat 4-3-3 and bring the central HB to a DLPd, is that preferred? I had him in the DM strata in order to make sure there's three defenders at all times (+ the occasional foray forward for the BPD)

I had some PIs -- mainly stay wider for the FBs and side STs -- not sure if it's necessary. 

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Dj-Voodoo

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Dj-Voodoo said:

How are my instructions? I'm of the camp of less-is-more (especially with big, very skilled squads) but I also need to make sure I'm defensively sound -- I'd rather win 2-0 than 4-1

Defensively sound with:

1. both attacking fullbacks and no holding or covering CM ???

2. High D-line coupled with the extremely urgent pressing and under the Attacking team mentality ???

Good luck with such instructions and role/duty distribution  

4 hours ago, Dj-Voodoo said:

The club wants to play possession football so I can't hoof it

Possession football with instructions such as pass into space, counter and attacking mentality ??? Doesn't look promising at all  

 

4 hours ago, Dj-Voodoo said:

I had some PIs -- mainly stay wider for the FBs and side STs -- not sure if it's necessary

Probably not. 

 

4 hours ago, Dj-Voodoo said:

2a) How can I fit the three strikers up front?

2b) If I have to resort to a 4-1-2-1-2 diamond, how can I fit in the front three in terms of roles? Müller would likely be the AM in that case. 

2c) I can play with a real flat 4-3-3 and bring the central HB to a DLPd, is that preferred? I had him in the DM strata in order to make sure there's three defenders at all times (+ the occasional foray forward for the BPD)

Unless you are trying to create some kind of exploit tactic, I think the whole setup would need an overhaul (a lot of tweaking).

But try the tactic first and see if it works anyway. 

[Dj-Voodoo]

Quote

Defensively sound with:

1. both attacking fullbacks and no holding or covering CM ???

2. High D-line coupled with the extremely urgent pressing and under the Attacking team mentality ???

Good luck with such instructions and role/duty distribution  

1. The HBd is a holding midfielder is he not?

2. How Bayern play under Flick or the famed Guardiola-Bayern -- they press, they're well high up the pitch, and they dominate possession -- also they're always looking forward (esp under Flick). That's the mandate.

I'm open to adjustments and suggestions.

Quote

Possession football with instructions such as pass into space, counter and attacking mentality ??? Doesn't look promising at all  

Allow me to rephrase: the mandate is attacking football with high possession numbers. I adapted this tactic from Gegenpress tactics (of which I'm not too fond, generally). 

I'm open to adjustments and suggestions.

Quote

Unless you are trying to create some kind of exploit tactic, I think the whole setup would need an overhaul (a lot of tweaking).

But try the tactic first and see if it works anyway. 

Never into exploit tactics, so no. I've tried the tactic, I'm winning games and not letting in goals but my intuition tells me it's leaning heavily on individual talent and isn't cohesive or coherent tactically. Lots of goals from crosses too, not enough combination plays and movements between the STs. 

 

How would you overhaul the setup with the following conditions:

(1) minimum 2 strikers and (2) attacking, possession football.

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Dj-Voodoo said:

The HBd is a holding midfielder is he not?

HB is a holding role, but in DM. He's not a central midfielder. One player alone cannot cover for the entire team if everybody else are surging forward to attack. 

You do need a bit more attack-minded fullbacks in a narrow system such as the narrow 4123, but then the midfielders need to be a bit more restrained to counterbalance the defensive risk. Like this (for example):

DLPsu     MEZsu

HB

WBat    XX     XX     WBsu

2 hours ago, Dj-Voodoo said:

I'm winning games and not letting in goals but my intuition tells me it's leaning heavily on individual talent and isn't cohesive or coherent tactically

If you are winning matches, then do not change the tactic (until/unless it stops working). That's always my advice to everyone. 

[Dj-Voodoo]

8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

HB is a holding role, but in DM. He's not a central midfielder. One player alone cannot cover for the entire team if everybody else are surging forward to attack. 

You do need a bit more attack-minded fullbacks in a narrow system such as the narrow 4123, but then the midfielders need to be a bit more restrained to counterbalance the defensive risk. Like this (for example):

DLPsu     MEZsu

HB

WBat    XX     XX     WBsu

If you are winning matches, then do not change the tactic (until/unless it stops working). That's always my advice to everyone. 

I can make those changes, thanks. What do you think about the TIs, they're overboard aren't they?

 

Do you (or anybody reading this) have any insight on the three men up front? I don't mind going 

AM

ST - ST

or 

ST - ST - ST

But I don't understand how to get them to work together and make some juicy/sexy combinations within the attacking-posession mandate. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Dj-Voodoo

[Experienced Defender]

11 minutes ago, Dj-Voodoo said:

I can make those changes, thanks

Okay, but also pay attention to how you set up the 3 strikers in relation to the other roles (think how you create space for your players via their roles and duties). 

 

12 minutes ago, Dj-Voodoo said:

What do you think about the TIs, they're overboard aren't they?

When it comes to instructions, you need to understand the impact that the team mentality has on all other instructions. In order to understand what the mentality does, please read this first: 

With all other things (instructions) being equal (default):

- the lower the mentality, the slower attacking transitions (actually tempo); and conversely - the higher the mentality, the faster attacking transitions (this explains why it's easier to create a counter-attacking tactic under a bit higher mentality)

- the lower the mentality, the more risk-averse players are in terms of passing; but this at the same time means that they will be more likely to simply hoof the ball clear when under pressure than trying to pass it around patiently and sensibly (therefore, the notion that lower mentalities suit possession-oriented styles of football is not entirely correct, except when it comes to so-called defensive possession football);

- the lower the mentality, the more passive/less aggressive players will be when defending (pressing urgency and tackling intensity); logically, the opposite is true for higher mentalities;

- the lower the mentality, the less creative freedom and freedom of movement players will generally have (although this is also partly affected by their roles); the opposite is true for higher mentalities;

- the lower the mentality, the narrower attacking width; the higher the mentality, the wider width (proportionally)

- the lower the mentality, the (proportionally) deeper both D-line and LOE will be; the opposite goes for higher mentalities

- the lower the mentality, the deeper relative (initial) positioning of players will generally be. The opposite applies to higher mentalities

[Experienced Defender]

18 minutes ago, Dj-Voodoo said:

Do you (or anybody reading this) have any insight on the three men up front?

Nothing wrong with 3 men up front as long as you have good enough players for such type of formation and as long as you clearly know why you want to play in that way (the style of football). But if you want primarily possession-based football, then the 4123 wide would be a better choice (with 1 striker and 2 wide forwards). Or 4231 (but here you need to be very careful whom you play in central midfield and how). 

[Dj-Voodoo]

38 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Nothing wrong with 3 men up front as long as you have good enough players for such type of formation and as long as you clearly know why you want to play in that way (the style of football). But if you want primarily possession-based football, then the 4123 wide would be a better choice (with 1 striker and 2 wide forwards). Or 4231 (but here you need to be very careful whom you play in central midfield and how). 

Well I want to use Lewandowski and Haaland at the very least and they both play centrally. 

My main question is how to assign their roles (either as a AM // ST ST or ST ST ST) to work within my system.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Dj-Voodoo

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, Dj-Voodoo said:

Well I want to use Lewandowski and Haaland at the very least and they both play centrally

Maybe a 442 diamond (either narrow or wide)? 

 

15 hours ago, Dj-Voodoo said:

My main question is how to assign their roles (either as a AM // ST ST or ST ST ST) to work within my system

It depends on how other roles and duties are assigned as well. First decide on the formation you definitely want to use. But if you choose a narrow formation, then keep in mind that it can place too much burden on your fullbacks over time. 

[Corperate]

I have got the flat 433 to work well. The front 3 will work as is, however I can see though that this tactics is very flawed in other areas.

I believe the half back works best if the defenders are set to stoppers, especially if counter pressing.? I would move Tollisso to CM Defend and use 2 mezzalas on support, fullbacks on support.

Or another set up would be *2 carilerro's (Goretzka and Tollisso) on either side of an advanced playmaker support ( Thiago), wingbacks on support, 2 CBS and the front 3 as is.

Possession football is best suited to positive mentality and to counter-pressing with aim to win the ball back as quick as possible and dominate possession. 'passing into space' is a tool for counterattacking/ attacking quickly so would advise not to use.

Also you have 2 pressing forwards and a high defensive line you should move the line of engagement higher so as the strikers win the ball back as soon as it is lost. It is generally best to keep the line of defense the same as the line of engagement. For example with your tactic with the high defensive line and normal line of engagement is prone to balls over the top of the defense as the opposing defenders have too much time on the ball.

[XuluBak]

Based on players and mandate, I'd recommend 4312, with a DLP in the center of your three. 

[Corperate]

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[Corperate]

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