Every Single Save My Team Turns To Trash In November

[Orikoru]

Why is this game such a joke? Every single save my tactic is working fine, getting decent points return, then in November to Christmas they just turn to crap and start losing. I've attached the tactic I was using this time, I'm sure it's not perfect but is it really bad enough to lose six on the bounce? Really? In tougher games I changed the defensive line back to standard and ticked Counter on in transition, and took off the play out of defence. In fairness three of the six defeats were against good teams, RBL, Dortmund and Leverkusen.

Please note this is on FM Touch so in theory should be easier than the full game. I just don't understand why it's so hard. You lose a couple of games and that's it, it's down the toilet and it ain't coming back.

[Orikoru]

I added a new manager as the same team to carry it on. I've made this tactic instead. Is it any better or worse? How the hell should I know.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Orikoru

[yolixeya]

11 minutes ago, Orikoru said:

In fairness three of the six defeats were against good teams, RBL, Dortmund and Leverkusen.

Well there you go. It doesn't have to be your tactic it could be that your team is just not that good and you lose against better opposition, and after 2-3 straight losses you have to deal with low morale which can extend your losing streak.

Similarly, I just ended 5 straight losses streak in my save and I kind of expected those bad streaks this season as my team is relegation candidate.

[Orikoru]

Just now, yolixeya said:

Well there you go. It doesn't have to be your tactic it could be that your team is just not that good and you lose against better opposition, and after 2-3 straight losses you have to deal with low morale which can extend your losing streak.

Similarly, I just ended 5 straight losses streak in my save and I kind of expected those bad streaks this season as my team is relegation candidate.

Why am I getting sacked then?? What the hell are you supposed to do to not be sacked in this game? I've been sacked by Christmas in most of my saves apart from two. 

[yolixeya]

Just now, Orikoru said:

Why am I getting sacked then?? What the hell are you supposed to do to not be sacked in this game? I've been sacked by Christmas in most of my saves apart from two.

Well I don't really know your team and your board expectations. I am just saying it doesn't always have to be your tactic. If you want help with tactics you should have opened the thread in tactics and training section of forum.

[Orikoru]

Just now, yolixeya said:

Well I don't really know your team and your board expectations. I am just saying it doesn't always have to be your tactic. If you want help with tactics you should have opened the thread in tactics and training section of forum.

I don't know that it's tactics either, to my mind that tactic is absolutely fine. I just include the images because if you don't, it's the only thing people ask you.

 

I'm just at my wit's end with this game. No matter what I do it always just makes sure my team crashes and burns in November-December and there's nothing I can do about it. Is it just an awful game?

[yolixeya]

2 minutes ago, Orikoru said:

I'm just at my wit's end with this game. No matter what I do it always just makes sure my team crashes and burns in November-December and there's nothing I can do about it. Is it just an awful game?

All I can say is that if you are getting sacked then you are doing something wrong. You're tactics are very minimalistic  and not the usual overkill with TI instructions. What I would suggest is to post your tactic in tactics forum with as much info as possible. What you see in the match, how you score, how you concede goals etc.

It could be also that you don't do well in press conferences and team talks and put unnecessary pressure at your team. It is hard to say really what is wrong if you don't provide as much info as you can.

[FrazT]

If you seriously want some help, then open a thread in the Tactics forums and let the guys in there have a look.  If you are consistently getting sacked than maybe start by accepting that perhaps it might be something that you are doing or not doing?

[Orikoru]

19 minutes ago, FrazT said:

If you seriously want some help, then open a thread in the Tactics forums and let the guys in there have a look.  If you are consistently getting sacked than maybe start by accepting that perhaps it might be something that you are doing or not doing?

If it's something I've not done then I have no idea what I'm supposed to do - that is certainly true. I've tried tactics with lots of instructions, now tactics with very few instructions, the roles I use are sensible and balanced. I've got nothing left to give.

[Orikoru]

1 hour ago, Orikoru said:

I added a new manager as the same team to carry it on. I've made this tactic instead. Is it any better or worse? How the hell should I know.

 

 

Won the first two games with this - the second one was against Bayern Munich. Imagine that. Since then we have lost another five in a row though. Probably about to be sacked for the second time.

[Snorks]

I'm not sure you would be getting sacked because of tactics alone - unless it is set out in the board expectations to play a certain way.  SO my first place to look would be the board expectations in terms of competition performance as well as tactical approach.

When you get the sack, does it give any indication of reason in the message received?

If it's because of results - look at how you are tracking with the expectations. They expect a top ten spot and you deliver bottom half could end up with sack

Style of play - they expect attacking football and you deliver defensive football

I'm not familiar with Touch so may be talking nonsense though.

[HUNT3R]

6 hours ago, Orikoru said:

I've made this tactic instead. Is it any better or worse? How the hell should I know.

I've looked through this thread and the previous two and this (quoted above) stands out to me. 

You made a new tactic - why? Why a completely new one? What does this one fix over the previous one? This last question is important. If you don't know what was wrong, you don't know if you're fixing it now or you're making a fundamental mistake with this one as well.

IMO, it's very dangerous territory to completely change a tactic within a season. How do you know that's going to work and will not have massive flaws? It's an untested tactic when results really matter and you can't really afford to take 2 or 3 competitive matches to see how it goes. In my own games, my tactics get tested in friendlies (pre-season) so I know I have a tactic that's largely working. Of course, not everything goes to plan so some matches might need adjustments... or I'll face a formation that my tactic doesn't deal with very well - usually time for my plan B, which is almost always also tested in pre-season.

Back to your tactic creation - I don't recall seeing anything from you regarding how you got to choose what you did. You're often on Positive Mentality - why? How do you come to choose the roles and duties of your players?  How do you see the tactic playing out in terms of who will be your main goal providers (and how are you looking to do that) and who will be the main scorers in it?

Why exactly are you getting sacked? It's surely not because you lose a couple of matches? You'll often get a notification telling you it's a poor league position etc. If everything is okay in November still, it seems very sudden to be sacked in December so there must have been some indicators that things aren't going perfectly even before December?

[fmonit]

Could also be a player moaning about not getting enough playing time? For instance a player that was promised to be a first team regular but in fact spends most of his time on the bench because of the others playing so well. Next thing you know the whole dressing room is upset and nobody performs like they should anymore.

I usually keep an eye out for the players I signed up to be first team players and give them at least a start in every 3rd-4th game even if their colleagues are playing better. A little bit of squad rotation shouldn't upset the system much....

[Orikoru]

7 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

I've looked through this thread and the previous two and this (quoted above) stands out to me. 

You made a new tactic - why? Why a completely new one? What does this one fix over the previous one? This last question is important. If you don't know what was wrong, you don't know if you're fixing it now or you're making a fundamental mistake with this one as well.

IMO, it's very dangerous territory to completely change a tactic within a season. How do you know that's going to work and will not have massive flaws? It's an untested tactic when results really matter and you can't really afford to take 2 or 3 competitive matches to see how it goes. In my own games, my tactics get tested in friendlies (pre-season) so I know I have a tactic that's largely working. Of course, not everything goes to plan so some matches might need adjustments... or I'll face a formation that my tactic doesn't deal with very well - usually time for my plan B, which is almost always also tested in pre-season.

Back to your tactic creation - I don't recall seeing anything from you regarding how you got to choose what you did. You're often on Positive Mentality - why? How do you come to choose the roles and duties of your players?  How do you see the tactic playing out in terms of who will be your main goal providers (and how are you looking to do that) and who will be the main scorers in it?

Why exactly are you getting sacked? It's surely not because you lose a couple of matches? You'll often get a notification telling you it's a poor league position etc. If everything is okay in November still, it seems very sudden to be sacked in December so there must have been some indicators that things aren't going perfectly even before December?

None of these questions make any sense to me. 

 

Why did I make a new tactic? Because we lost six games in a row only scoring 1 goal, which got me the sack - so for whatever reason, my assumption is the old tactic no longer worked. In pre-season it did work. Why would you not change a tactic during a season if you've just lost six games in a row?? Just keep using the same tactic and losing all the time? I don't understand.

I use positive mentality because we have decent wingers (or so I thought) so I thought we'd do a lot better than we did. I chose the roles based on what worked in other saves (although nothing ever works forever) and what I think is a good balance. 

I got sacked because we lost six games in a row and plummeted into the relegation zone. The board were expecting me to 'avoid a relegation battle'. After 10 games we were 10th, six defeats later we were 16th and they sacked me. I just don't know what I'm doing with this game, it seems totally random.

[Orikoru]

11 hours ago, Snorks said:

I'm not sure you would be getting sacked because of tactics alone - unless it is set out in the board expectations to play a certain way.  SO my first place to look would be the board expectations in terms of competition performance as well as tactical approach.

When you get the sack, does it give any indication of reason in the message received?

If it's because of results - look at how you are tracking with the expectations. They expect a top ten spot and you deliver bottom half could end up with sack

Style of play - they expect attacking football and you deliver defensive football

I'm not familiar with Touch so may be talking nonsense though.

I got sacked because they wanted us to avoid a relegation battle, and the six defeats plummeted us into 16th. That part is obvious. My issue is why on every save that I play, I make tactics that seem nicely balanced and work for a while, then around November time they suddenly crash through the floor. 

There's a huge problem with morale on this game as well. You lose three games, even as a relegation battling team losing to top six sides - and every player's morale drops. When their morale is at the bottom it is then impossible to win any games so you can't get them out of it. Basically, you lose three matches in a row and it's game over.

[Orikoru]

Here is a bunch of tactic screens and our results list for the whole season. 

 

'Old442' is the one we used in pre-season, then for the league until I got sacked which was 17th Dec after the Leverkusen defeat.

Added new manager and started using something like 'old4141' although not with Cunha in midfield obviously, it was some other guy. I just recreated the tactic quickly for the screenshot.

For the Werder game 7th March (having just lost 5 in a row) I switched to 'New442' and won 3-0. From this point onwards I used this formation in games I thought were winnable, but for games where we were the underdog I used 'New4141' for some extra security. But as you can see that hasn't gone well at all.

 

I just don't have a clue. Hertha aren't very good, sure, but I don't think my tactics are that bad. I can't understand this game.

 

(Edit bah it doesn't keep the filenames hang on)

New:

Old:

results1.html results2.html results3.html

Edited May 14, 2020 by Orikoru

[yolixeya]

40 minutes ago, Orikoru said:

Why did I make a new tactic? Because we lost six games in a row only scoring 1 goal, which got me the sack - so for whatever reason, my assumption is the old tactic no longer worked. In pre-season it did work. Why would you not change a tactic during a season if you've just lost six games in a row?? Just keep using the same tactic and losing all the time? I don't understand.

What he meant is that you have to identify what is wrong to know what to change and how to adopt. Changing everything randomly gets you nowhere.

 

42 minutes ago, Orikoru said:

got sacked because we lost six games in a row and plummeted into the relegation zone. The board were expecting me to 'avoid a relegation battle'. After 10 games we were 10th, six defeats later we were 16th and they sacked me. I just don't know what I'm doing with this game, it seems totally random.

So they expect you to stay clear of the relegation battle which means you are not very strong team and you are probably predicted to be in bottom half of the table. I wouldn't play on positive mentality all the time with team like that, at least not all the time. Especially in away games.

 

36 minutes ago, Orikoru said:

There's a huge problem with morale on this game as well. You lose three games, even as a relegation battling team losing to top six sides - and every player's morale drops. When their morale is at the bottom it is then impossible to win any games so you can't get them out of it. Basically, you lose three matches in a row and it's game over.

Yeah, no one likes losing even if they aren't favourites. But it's not impossible to turn things around. Good thing when you are close to relegation zone that points are  much more valuable and just 2 victories can make you jump to middle of the tabel again.

[Orikoru]

4 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

1.What he meant is that you have to identify what is wrong to know what to change and how to adopt. Changing everything randomly gets you nowhere.

 

So they expect you to stay clear of the relegation battle which means you are not very strong team and you are probably predicted to be in bottom half of the table. I wouldn't play on positive mentality all the time with team like that, at least not all the time. Especially in away games.

 

Yeah, no one likes losing even if they aren't favourites. But it's not impossible to turn things around. Good thing when you are close to relegation zone that points are  much more valuable and just 2 victories can make you jump to middle of the tabel again.

1. How? It working and then it wasn't. That's all I know. Other teams just bang screamers in, or score a header in the last ten minutes. Or we just can't score, but I can't really go anymore attacking because as you said, I'm a poor team.

2. Ok fair point. 

3. But you can't get any victories when morale is at the bottom - unless by sheer luck.

[Orikoru]

Update: yup, we got relegated.

[yolixeya]

1 minute ago, Orikoru said:

1. How? It working and then it wasn't. That's all I know. Other teams just bang screamers in, or score a header in the last ten minutes. Or we just can't score, but I can't really go anymore attacking because as you said, I'm a poor team.

The way I learned to play the game is just read a lot of topics in tactics forum and in general about FM and experimenting myself. Started playing matches on comprehensive highlights because you can spot things easier and started focusing on the basics. Simple things like if I'm trying to play from the defense and look if it is working. Are they losing the ball? Are they unable to build form the back and lunching long balls when pressured. Simple things like that.

It is also very important to lower your expectations when you are a weak team. You are going to lose some matches no matter what you do. I have also fallen into a trap of changing tactics when I'm weaker team because I thought that I need to make something better. And never forget that you only need to satisfy your board. Everything else is overachieving. 

21 minutes ago, Orikoru said:

3. But you can't get any victories when morale is at the bottom - unless by sheer luck.

You can. like I said, I just ended my losing streak in my current save. Then I lost the next one but then I won again. And you can always use those team meetings and praise and criticize players' conduct, efforts in training etc which will also help with morale.

[Orikoru]

4 hours ago, yolixeya said:

The way I learned to play the game is just read a lot of topics in tactics forum and in general about FM and experimenting myself. Started playing matches on comprehensive highlights because you can spot things easier and started focusing on the basics. Simple things like if I'm trying to play from the defense and look if it is working. Are they losing the ball? Are they unable to build form the back and lunching long balls when pressured. Simple things like that.

It is also very important to lower your expectations when you are a weak team. You are going to lose some matches no matter what you do. I have also fallen into a trap of changing tactics when I'm weaker team because I thought that I need to make something better. And never forget that you only need to satisfy your board. Everything else is overachieving. 

You can. like I said, I just ended my losing streak in my current save. Then I lost the next one but then I won again. And you can always use those team meetings and praise and criticize players' conduct, efforts in training etc which will also help with morale.

Thanks for your replies by the way - sorry if it looks like I am shooting you down each time as well. But it's just that I'm playing FM Touch, and I thought it would be a simple click and play game like the old days (FM 05 and 07 for example), but it's still way complicated and difficult. I'm not really up for each match taking half an hour to get through. I like it quickfire, get through a season in a few days. In my view, that is what FM Touch should be like.

 

I guess I didn't think Hertha were that bad? I thought it wouldn't be too hard to get at least lower mid-table in the first season. I probably over-estimated them. Definitely expected to lose to the top six, let's say, but there should be some give and take there, not that you lose a few and then enter the downward spiral of doom. 

I don't think we have team meetings in Touch. I think it's only when prompted by the assistant manager or some other staff member in your inbox.

[yolixeya]

13 hours ago, Orikoru said:

I'm not really up for each match taking half an hour to get through. I like it quickfire, get through a season in a few days. In my view, that is what FM Touch should be like.

Yeah, me too. What I do is play on comperhensive first few matches when I am making my tactic and when I'm satisfied then on key highlights. I will still start some matches on comprehensive  first few minutes because you are able to see if the match goes in your favor, if I have initiative I switch to key. But if I start important matches on key it might be too late because first highlight shown might be the goal conceded. But for the most season I rush trough the season watching on key. Also this is the first time I am using custom skin with instant result button, but I don't use it that much, only in unimportant games like last season when I won promotion with like 6-7 matches left.

I never played Touch so I don't know how different it is.

 

[HUNT3R]

18 hours ago, Orikoru said:

Why did I make a new tactic? Because we lost six games in a row only scoring 1 goal, which got me the sack - so for whatever reason, my assumption is the old tactic no longer worked. In pre-season it did work. Why would you not change a tactic during a season if you've just lost six games in a row?? Just keep using the same tactic and losing all the time? I don't understand.

 

How do you judge what works and what doesn't, in pre-season? If it's just on results, that's not a very good indicator at all. Players are less motivated in friendlies, rotated squads are often used and AI managers don't care about the result, so you won't see any fightbacks etc. I'm not saying you can't use friendlies - I'm saying you have to find other ways of gauging whether it 'works' or not. Watch where your team leaves space out of possession, how they use space in possession, what passing combinations are available to individual players when they have the ball, position of the D-line etc.

Looking at your pre-season, you faced a bunch of poor teams, excluding Celtic and Atalanta at the end. You're preparing for a league season where most teams will be better than you so only really the Atalanta game (possible Celtic) gave you some idea of what you'll be facing.

--------------

Some of @yolixeya's advice is spot on. If you choose a team like Hertha, be prepared to struggle.

I would challenge this:

13 hours ago, Orikoru said:

Definitely expected to lose to the top six, let's say, but there should be some give and take there, not that you lose a few and then enter the downward spiral of doom. 

The couple of losses didn't send you into a spiral of doom, imo. You already started in that spiral and never got out.

Your approach toward the end of the season - identifying hard matches and others which could be winnable actually got you decent results, Dortmund and Leipzig aside, but those two are expected.

--------

Apart from just looking at the starting tactic, you still need to be aware of what's happening in a match. Sometimes it's 75th min and 0-0 but you've been dominant and forcing things a bit could grab you a win. Other times, you're hanging onto a 1-1 or 1-0, so just being a bit more defensively solid or switching to your more defensive tactic (or subbing on more defensive players) could help you see out a match. 

 

[HUNT3R]

30 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

Yeah, me too. What I do is play on comperhensive first few matches when I am making my tactic and when I'm satisfied then on key highlights. I will still start some matches on comprehensive  first few minutes because you are able to see if the match goes in your favor, if I have initiative I switch to key. But if I start important matches on key it might be too late because first highlight shown might be the goal conceded. But for the most season I rush trough the season watching on key. Also this is the first time I am using custom skin with instant result button, but I don't use it that much, only in unimportant games like last season when I won promotion with like 6-7 matches left.

I never played Touch so I don't know how different it is.

 

This. It's quite possible to just zoom through matches. In your case, you're making sure you have a solid base tactic set up or if you're unsure, to just watch the start of a match to make sure you're solid. 

[marksbros6]

In reply to the OP:

 

I know that regular saving (aka  ‘save-scumming’) gets looked-down on (aka ‘cheating’) on the board, but I’ve found it can be really helpful to explore the limits and expectations of the the game/‘board’ at the club.

 

if it’s always happening in November then keep a save in October maybe? Get sacked; go back to that save and make some changes.

 

I do find that this game is very strict in the top division regarding expectations, results and fan-support. I sailed close-to-the-wind a lot in my Tottenham save (well; at least playing as Spurs isn’t ‘too easy’ in this version!)

 

Usually the key is results and Morale. If your tactic ‘gets figured out’ by the game then make some small changes, or swap formation/instructions (I often use all 3 save-slots for different tactics and make changes after a loss).

 

try and keep squad-players happy/satisfied/match-fit too, and change the line-up after a defeat.