Issues with Striker in 4-2-3-1

[SteelCityColt]

Apologies that this is similar to a few other posts, but I've read those and don't think my setup has the same root issues. I've been playing a 4-3-2-1 that is working well, very good defensively (yet to concede)  as a result of stifling possession, but doesn't really get a contribution from the striker. He will have plenty of shots, plenty on target, but no real CCC. Most goals are coming from wide players meeting crosses at the back post, mixed with set pieces and the occasional long ranger from the CMs. Tactic is currently:

Parrott is set to CF as he fitted the role well, but I have experimented with DLF (A) as well to no real change. Other things I've considered changing:

Moving away from a W(S) in the AMR as no player has better than 10 for crossing. However I lack a left footer to play inside out. I've also thought about changing this to a Raumdeuter. I'd also switch up the FB to WB if I went with a role that player inside more.

Removing Works into Box/Play Through the Middle 

Changing the DLP to a BWM, or the AP to an AM (S) as I'm not sure if 2 play makers is a good plan. Both play well though.

[Experienced Defender]

CF as a role can struggle in this type of system, even if the player fits the role in terms of his attributes. Because CF needs more space to operate and therefore tends to work better in formations with fewer teammates close to him (e.g. 442, 4411, flat 4141). Another potential problem is that he has a playmaker role immediately behind himself, which means 2 creative roles being too close to each other (because CF is a creator role, even if not a playmaking one). 

Another thing that I don't like - apart from the CF - is having 2 playmaker roles in close vicinity (DLP behind the AP). That can lead to tactical overkill slowing the play down needlessly.

Then your right flank is very cross-heavy with a winger and attacking fullback. If you want to play with a lot of crosses, that's just one more reason to play the striker in a simple(r) role.

But given that you use the "Work ball into box" TI, it seems that you actually don't want to see (too) many crosses. Therefore, you should definitely reconsider the roles on the right flank. 

Focus play through the middle means that you are telling (forcing) your players to try and play through the very area of the pitch in which opposition defenses are usually most crowded. So why would you want to limit your players' attacking options? 

[Experienced Defender]

And yes, you have (the overkill of) 2 playmakers while at the same time playing both CBs as BPDs. Which is pretty contradictory.

[SteelCityColt]

Thank you for the reply and suggestions. 

What role would you suggest for the AMR if I'm stuck a bit with right footers? Hlozek has oddly played well and is my top scorer so far. 

When you say simple(r) roles for the striker, would that include a DLF? I've not wanted to use an advanced forward or poacher as I thought it would leave them isolated up top with no space in behind. 

[SteelCityColt]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

And yes, you have (the overkill of) 2 playmakers while at the same time playing both CBs as BPDs. Which is pretty contradictory.

The dangers of thinking best players + best roles = best tactic!

[SteelCityColt]

Ha I changed things to this:

Next match (against fellow unbeaten Brentford):

 

Couldn't make it up really! To be fair his 3 goals were from set pieces (1 Corner, 1 Free Kick, 1 Pen) so maybe a bit too early to say things are better. 

[Djuicer]

I find the striker contributing more as a creator than a forward in 4-2-3-1. The goals are easier to come by from the wings. DLF is fairly creative though. And iw if threatening enough. This looks pretty good overall. Although I like the playmaker deeper. But thats just a personal preference.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, SteelCityColt said:

The dangers of thinking best players + best roles = best tactic!

Yes. Or rather - the danger of viewing tactical elements in isolation  

[Experienced Defender]

50 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

Here again you have the lone striker in a creator role (DLF) paired with a playmaker behind him. Among other potential issues. 

Creator striker roles are: CF, DLF, F9 and TQ (who is btw also a playmaker role).

Simple striker roles (runners/scorers) are: AF, PF and poacher (although I would avoid an AF in a tactic like yours).

Target man can be used both as a runner and creator, depending on the player and how the tactic as a whole is designed (conceived). 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, SteelCityColt said:

What role would you suggest for the AMR if I'm stuck a bit with right footers?

I would (probably) play him as a winger, but would not play the fullback behind him as a FB on attack. What roles and duties I would specifically use depends on the tactic as a whole (i.e. the style of football I want to implement). Of course, taking into account strengths and weaknesses of my team. 

 

1 hour ago, SteelCityColt said:

When you say simple(r) roles for the striker, would that include a DLF?

No. Take a look at my comment just above this one. 

[SteelCityColt]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

I would (probably) play him as a winger, but would not play the fullback behind him as a FB on attack. What roles and duties I would specifically use depends on the tactic as a whole (i.e. the style of football I want to implement). Of course, taking into account strengths and weaknesses of my team. 

 

No. Take a look at my comment just above this one. 

 

Thank you for guidance, it's much appreciated, back after a FM hiatus so having re-educate myself!

 

The FB/W combo came out of reading this guide (https://www.passion4fm.com/football-manager-player-role-combinations-duty-pairs/#width) which I perhaps have misunderstood. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by SteelCityColt

[Danielkirby]

I play a 4231 and my striker is prolific every season.... I’ve attached screenshots of my tactic and the striker:

my striker also doesn’t take my penalties, for some reason he’s useless at them.

i get a lot of assists from my wb(a) and my right winger but lots of variations in types of goals scored too.

 

 

[scwiffy]

20 minutes ago, Danielkirby said:

I play a 4231 and my striker is prolific every season.... I’ve attached screenshots of my tactic and the striker:

my striker also doesn’t take my penalties, for some reason he’s useless at them.

i get a lot of assists from my wb(a) and my right winger but lots of variations in types of goals scored too.

 

 

Wow looks like a perfect tactic, love the combination of roles you've got going on. Did you try a FB-a on the right? 

I've found PF to be a good all round position for forwards, I'm pretty sure you can fit them into most tactics, the a/s/d duties offer a lot of variation. I've been playing a 4231 on my Lisbon save with a PF-s or PF-a (depending on what role the AM is) and they offer a nice complete package

[Danielkirby]

I wanted my winger on the right to stay wide, I figured that and attack duty at right back would make him cut inside too often and I didn’t want that.

I’m no expert at this game, my tactic was tinkered with over 20 seasons at the club I’m at now and we’ve only consistently started winning the league in the last 5 seasons.... lots of trial and error!

[SteelCityColt]

23 hours ago, Danielkirby said:

I play a 4231 and my striker is prolific every season.... I’ve attached screenshots of my tactic and the striker:

my striker also doesn’t take my penalties, for some reason he’s useless at them.

i get a lot of assists from my wb(a) and my right winger but lots of variations in types of goals scored too.

 

 

 

Do you have many/any PIs set up? What's the thinking behind the AP on the left vs say a IF/IW?

[SteelCityColt]

This is starting to drive me somewhat mad, in all my tinkering (and messing around with 4-1-4-1 as alternate) I still can't seem to get the central striker to have any consistent impact on the game. Worse is I seem to have stopped the wide players scoring as well though I'm still scraping results out off the back of a solid defence (which I would expect to be far leakier TBH). 

Now repeatedly playing the same game as a lab in a trial and error fashion. 

[OJ]

On 19/05/2020 at 17:37, Experienced Defender said:

And yes, you have (the overkill of) 2 playmakers while at the same time playing both CBs as BPDs. Which is pretty contradictory.

This can work perfectly fine within the right tactical setup plus of course players (I use it myself with great success), though in a 4-2-3-1 with the other playmaker as AP on the AMC slot not so well. It could work very well though with putting the BBM into AMC as standard AM but adding PIs so he'll be like the BBM. Then the AP goes from the AMC into MCR as an RPM. Striker would also switch to something that drops deep/roams and links up play.