Total Football (Very Fluid)

[Experienced Defender]

@Nick_CB If you believe the ME is "broken" or in any way flawed, you can legitimately complain about that in the relevant section called Bugs, subsection Match engine. But not here - either in this particular thread or the tactical forum in general. So please keep this in mind when posting in this forum. Thank you.

@crusadertsar Sorry mate, I had to remove your comment as a "collateral damage" as well, even though I do agree with you absolutely 

[crusadertsar]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

@Nick_CB If you believe the ME is "broken" or in any way flawed, you can legitimately complain about that in the relevant section called Bugs, subsection Match engine. But not here - either in this particular thread or the tactical forum in general. So please keep this in mind when posting in this forum. Thank you.

@crusadertsar Sorry mate, I had to remove your comment as a "collateral damage" as well, even though I do agree with you absolutely 

No problem, you have to do what you got to do to do your job mate 

[FootballersWith]

Unbelievable post @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!! Given me some inspiration to play again much like your 3-4-3 diamond post did a while back.

 

I'm thinking of starting an Arsenal DNA save where I can build a conveyor belt of talent based on a philosophy. Do you work to a checklist or anything when starting a new save? Like start with getting new coaches, then youth..

[04texag]

On 27/05/2020 at 04:12, gam945 said:

Really interesting post! I would be really interested to know how you would recreate Total Football using this shape (or a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1)

It's interesting that Cruyff himself played as a playmaker in the number 10 spot, but he was on record saying that he always wanted his playmaker deeper as the number 6, which @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! always replicates with Dantas, and others.

Edited June 20, 2020 by 04texag

[zlatanera]

12 hours ago, 04texag said:

It's interesting that Cruyff himself played as a playmaker in the number 10 spot, but he was on record saying that he always wanted his playmaker deeper as the number 6, which @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! always replicates with Dantas, and others.

I've often heard something along the liens of "great players often won't make great managers as they can't coach players less capable than themselves". Perhaps this was Cruyff arrogantly / perceptively (depending on your opinion of the man) recognising he didn't have anyone good enough to do it how he did it? 

[gam945]

I'm currently trying to implement Total Football in my Italian 3rd division side using a 4-4-2. The ultimate idea is to reproduce this shape:

Basically wingers should be technical players providing width, a #10 and a #8 as playmakers, a #6 protecting the backline and starting the possession phases. As I lack quality players for now I'm beginning by implementing a quick transitions playing style, while still having average possession of >55%. As many players developped the Play One-Twos trait, I'm able to reproduce some typical passing patterns and attacking patterns of Total Football. Current formation is as follows:

Key elements:

False 9: comes back in midfield and combines with the CM. They act as attacking playmakers for the team.
Poacher: attacks the penalty area, I mainly chose this role because I don't want him wide.
CM-su (Moves into channels, Take more risks, Get further forward): gets forwards and plays in the half spaces
W-su and WM-at: the two of them provide width. However the one on support overloads the left side while the one on attack has more space and tries to create chances for the Poacher.

Pass into Space, Higher Tempo: I feel those two contribute to having a quick and entertaining passing game that sometimes reminds me of last season's Ajax.

The FBs are pretty much some times providing width, sometimes play in the middle. When my #8 will have more of an attacking responsibility I'll maybe use IWBs.

An example of pass combinations and overall position with the ball of a match the team played really well (3-0 win):

Clearly we can see the "midfield trio" formed by the DLP(18)-CM(8)-F9(39). The two wingers should be more far ahead, so I'm just gonna make them learn the Get Forward whenever possible trait. Also the Poacher, while he constantly attacks the penalty area, combines also too much in wide areas. Still have to adjust this. FBs played great and offered width also.

Overall position with the ball shows how the 4-4-2 almost transforms into a 4-3-3, but that there's still room for improvements:
- F9(39) should maybe come deeper
- LB(21) was on attack duty, but still the LB and the LW(28) are taking the same space.
- Poacher(9) should be more central

Also:

I'm still a long way from Total Football, but I certainly feel I'm progressing towards this style of play.

Edited June 20, 2020 by gam945

[wixxi]

1 hour ago, gam945 said:

I'm currently trying to implement Total Football in my Italian 3rd division side using a 4-4-2. The ultimate idea is to reproduce this shape:

Basically wingers should be technical players providing width, a #10 and a #8 as playmakers, a #6 protecting the backline and starting the possession phases. As I lack quality players for now I'm beginning by implementing a quick transitions playing style, while still having average possession of >55%. As many players developped the Play One-Twos trait, I'm able to reproduce some typical passing patterns and attacking patterns of Total Football. Current formation is as follows:

Key elements:

False 9: comes back in midfield and combines with the CM. They act as attacking playmakers for the team.
Poacher: attacks the penalty area, I mainly chose this role because I don't want him wide.
CM-su (Moves into channels, Take more risks, Get further forward): gets forwards and plays in the half spaces
W-su and WM-at: the two of them provide width. However the one on support overloads the left side while the one on attack has more space and tries to create chances for the Poacher.

Pass into Space, Higher Tempo: I feel those two contribute to having a quick and entertaining passing game that sometimes reminds me of last season's Ajax.

The FBs are pretty much some times providing width, sometimes play in the middle. When my #8 will have more of an attacking responsibility I'll maybe use IWBs.

An example of pass combinations and overall position with the ball of a match the team played really well (3-0 win):

Clearly we can see the "midfield trio" formed by the DLP(18)-CM(8)-F9(39). The two wingers should be more far ahead, so I'm just gonna make them learn the Get Forward whenever possible trait. Also the Poacher, while he constantly attacks the penalty area, combines also too much in wide areas. Still have to adjust this. FBs played great and offered width also.

Overall position with the ball shows how the 4-4-2 almost transforms into a 4-3-3, but that there's still room for improvements:
- F9(39) should maybe come deeper
- LB(21) was on attack duty, but still the LB and the LW(28) are taking the same space.
- Poacher(9) should be more central

Also:

I'm still a long way from Total Football, but I certainly feel I'm progressing towards this style of play.

Could try training the F9 to have the 'comes deep to get ball' PPM for the deeper movement, otherwise I think an AM-s with added PIs should work quite nicely.

Nice post though, definitely keep us updated

[skyline72]

True play out of defence. 

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 19/06/2020 at 17:54, antbonc said:

Unbelievable post @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!! Given me some inspiration to play again much like your 3-4-3 diamond post did a while back.

 

I'm thinking of starting an Arsenal DNA save where I can build a conveyor belt of talent based on a philosophy. Do you work to a checklist or anything when starting a new save? Like start with getting new coaches, then youth..

Thank you very much 

There have been a few posts about the Premier League, and Arsenal in particular. I believe a few have tried it, a couple have come close but nobody has quite nailed it yet.

I don't have a checklist, but right now the biggest thing limiting Benfica in my save is quality of opposition/league. A problem you're not going to have in the Premier League.

In terms of starting, the main thing is the players; quality young players, with opportunity to play. Then I'd look at getting them tutored. I'd expect most prem sides to have pretty good coaching and facilities, but either way shouldn't be difficult to sort out.

My impression would be that you'd need to scout, scout, scout and be bringing in the most talented young players from all over the world, otherwise you're reliant on chance with your academy producing enough. I don't think there's any Premier League side with a Benfica-like situation, having a crop of great young players ready to go.

 

On 20/06/2020 at 02:25, 04texag said:

It's interesting that Cruyff himself played as a playmaker in the number 10 spot, but he was on record saying that he always wanted his playmaker deeper as the number 6, which @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! always replicates with Dantas, and others.

Very interesting!

This is actually one of the reasons I posted the different variants of Ajax and Holland over the years; to demonstrate that the set up was certainly not static. It shifts again as they go to Barcelona.

I actually think that the most accurate representation of the Ajax midfield with Muhren, Haan and Neeskens wouldn't have a designated playmaker (nor holder for that matter), but that doesn't really suit my players. Possibly most reminiscent of Liverpool's midfield over recent seasons.

As for the False 9, I do think Cruyff used it as a coach, for example Laudrup at Barcelona, but he really cemented the idea of the playmaking 6.

 

On 20/06/2020 at 22:46, gam945 said:

I'm currently trying to implement Total Football in my Italian 3rd division side using a 4-4-2. The ultimate idea is to reproduce this shape:

Basically wingers should be technical players providing width, a #10 and a #8 as playmakers, a #6 protecting the backline and starting the possession phases. As I lack quality players for now I'm beginning by implementing a quick transitions playing style, while still having average possession of >55%. As many players developped the Play One-Twos trait, I'm able to reproduce some typical passing patterns and attacking patterns of Total Football. Current formation is as follows:

Key elements:

False 9: comes back in midfield and combines with the CM. They act as attacking playmakers for the team.
Poacher: attacks the penalty area, I mainly chose this role because I don't want him wide.
CM-su (Moves into channels, Take more risks, Get further forward): gets forwards and plays in the half spaces
W-su and WM-at: the two of them provide width. However the one on support overloads the left side while the one on attack has more space and tries to create chances for the Poacher.

Pass into Space, Higher Tempo: I feel those two contribute to having a quick and entertaining passing game that sometimes reminds me of last season's Ajax.

The FBs are pretty much some times providing width, sometimes play in the middle. When my #8 will have more of an attacking responsibility I'll maybe use IWBs.

An example of pass combinations and overall position with the ball of a match the team played really well (3-0 win):

Clearly we can see the "midfield trio" formed by the DLP(18)-CM(8)-F9(39). The two wingers should be more far ahead, so I'm just gonna make them learn the Get Forward whenever possible trait. Also the Poacher, while he constantly attacks the penalty area, combines also too much in wide areas. Still have to adjust this. FBs played great and offered width also.

Overall position with the ball shows how the 4-4-2 almost transforms into a 4-3-3, but that there's still room for improvements:
- F9(39) should maybe come deeper
- LB(21) was on attack duty, but still the LB and the LW(28) are taking the same space.
- Poacher(9) should be more central

Also:

I'm still a long way from Total Football, but I certainly feel I'm progressing towards this style of play.

This is brilliant 

How are you getting on?

[gam945]

On 25/06/2020 at 05:03, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

This is brilliant 

How are you getting on?

I finished the season unbeaten with this tactic and a slight variation of it that has lower tempo and shorter passing, so now I'm in the Serie B in the 2nd tier of Italian football. However I didn't touch the save since 3-4 days due to being bored somehow. This is the second time since 2 years of playing FM that I finish a season 

Now I'm rethinking my approach for coming season, I don't want anymore to "copy" Guardiola (wide wingers, two 8s in halfspaces, etc) who has his own understanding of Total Football. Total Football is a more a philosophy than a "system".

I'm more reading some tactics related articles (FM and non-FM) than playing. The only thing that I'm sure about is that I'll use a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1. First because it's a real challenge to transform the 4-4-2 into whichever system I want in attacking phase, and secondly because I'm very stubborn and I never used another formation than the cited ones.

Also hesitating to begin a new save with a mid/low-table Serie A club because I want Van Basten as my assistant manager from day 1, but there's no team playing in red and white 

[04texag]

On 31/05/2020 at 07:04, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Edit: just tagging @fmFutbolManager to make sure you see the link above as it may be useful for your mentality calculator.. 

OK so this should indeed be a 'go to' resource for anyone trying to navigate the Football Manager 2020 tactics creator. Thanks again for sharing.

Nothing new for those who have followed the Caixa Academy threat but it's nicely laid out all in one place.

Applying this to the style of play we are trying to create gives two options:

Which gives you:

                   Balanced
Positive                              Positive
           Positive        Positive
                   Positive
Positive   Positive        Positive   Positive
                   Positive

Or knock the mentality down to positive, switch to inside forwards and have the fullbacks overlap for:

Which gives you:
 

                   Balanced
Attacking                             Attacking
           Positive        Positive
                   Balanced
Attacking  Balanced        Balanced   Attacking
                   Balanced

Unfortunately you lose the mystique of the entire team playing the collective, attacking football but both should work pretty well 

 

Somehow, this got buried in this thread and not really noticed, at least by me, but judging by the amount of upvotes, by a lot. There have been a lot of people for a few years wanting @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! to upgrade to the new tactics engine. It looks like he finally has and given us at least an initial, if albeit not fully tested, version of his tactical thinking. I for one say, "Many thanks fine man!"

It's not too far apart from some of my previous tinkerings, but enough differences to give me some more to play and mess with. It's especially helpful with the mentality calculators in this thread, as that has always been a big part of how he plans his tactics, and has been largely under the hood of the new engines. Thanks also to @fmFutbolManager for his fine work.

Great thread @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, I always perma-follow your work, keep it up! And if you're ready to jump full in to FM20, I'll gladly let you host your own full channel/column on my dedicated gaming website to say thank you for upgrading to FM20!

[skyline72]

I got a feeling @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! will finally get FM20. 

[04texag]

It's my birthday tomorrow, but for my present, with it being half off, I'd gladly gift it to him!

Edited June 27, 2020 by 04texag

[Zemahh]

16 minutes ago, 04texag said:

It's my birthday tomorrow, but for my present, with it being half off, I'd gladly gift it to him!

Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Don't miss this one! 

Also, very kind of you @04texag and have a happy birthday! Definitely one of the most deserving posters. 

[yonko]

On 19/06/2020 at 18:25, 04texag said:

It's interesting that Cruyff himself played as a playmaker in the number 10 spot, but he was on record saying that he always wanted his playmaker deeper as the number 6, which @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! always replicates with Dantas, and others.

I would disagree that Cruyff was a playmaker at the Number 10 spot. He started as a winger and then played as False 9, who was actually all over the place - total freedom of movement. As can be seen in the WC 1974 final vs Germany when he picks up the ball from his own half as the last player to make that famous dribble for the penalty. Personally I see a lot similarities between the way Cruyff played the False 9 role and how Pep had Messi play it. 

I think Cruyff recognized the way football was evolving during the later 80s/early 90s and therefore used 3-4-3 with a pivote (Pep) in front of the 3 defenders. The middle defender was also a Libero (Koeman). Once teams started changing from the usual 442s and 352/532s then he made the transition to 4-3-3 with Pep the pivot still in front of the defense. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 27/06/2020 at 14:08, 04texag said:

Somehow, this got buried in this thread and not really noticed, at least by me, but judging by the amount of upvotes, by a lot. There have been a lot of people for a few years wanting @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! to upgrade to the new tactics engine. It looks like he finally has and given us at least an initial, if albeit not fully tested, version of his tactical thinking. I for one say, "Many thanks fine man!"

It's not too far apart from some of my previous tinkerings, but enough differences to give me some more to play and mess with. It's especially helpful with the mentality calculators in this thread, as that has always been a big part of how he plans his tactics, and has been largely under the hood of the new engines. Thanks also to @fmFutbolManager for his fine work.

Great thread @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, I always perma-follow your work, keep it up! And if you're ready to jump full in to FM20, I'll gladly let you host your own full channel/column on my dedicated gaming website to say thank you for upgrading to FM20!

 thank you for the kind words.

I have dabbled with Football Manager 2020 but - honestly - I really cannot get into it. I did actually buy the game on sale a while ago as I wanted to implement my Arsenal set-up with the current squad. It's a highly-structured Overload system with lots of pressing and very quick transitions, but I couldn't get anywhere near the correct mentalities for the team.

For me - as most can probably tell - the tactical side of the game is most interesting and, unfortunately, the limitations in the current tactics creator take an a lot of that enjoyment away. I enjoy creating styles of play and watching them play out in the match engine and so many are no longer really possible.

It's a shame, but I have really enjoyed the journey. Life is going in a lot of different directions this year with a lot of upcoming travel as lockdown eases so realistically I am going to have less time anyway. Hence why it feels like this might realistically be my last one for a while 

 

On 27/06/2020 at 16:16, 04texag said:

It's my birthday tomorrow, but for my present, with it being half off, I'd gladly gift it to him!

..and happy birthday!! 

 

On 28/06/2020 at 02:33, yonko said:

I would disagree that Cruyff was a playmaker at the Number 10 spot. He started as a winger and then played as False 9, who was actually all over the place - total freedom of movement. As can be seen in the WC 1974 final vs Germany when he picks up the ball from his own half as the last player to make that famous dribble for the penalty. Personally I see a lot similarities between the way Cruyff played the False 9 role and how Pep had Messi play it. 

I think Cruyff recognized the way football was evolving during the later 80s/early 90s and therefore used 3-4-3 with a pivote (Pep) in front of the 3 defenders. The middle defender was also a Libero (Koeman). Once teams started changing from the usual 442s and 352/532s then he made the transition to 4-3-3 with Pep the pivot still in front of the defense. 

This is a really interesting topic; I keep meaning to find time to contribute properly.

I fully agree with you about the Cruyff role. Obviously slightly less of a goalscorer than Messi, but I the movement and involvement levels are very similar. I also guess a lot depends on your definition of "playmaker".

Just looking at the formation set-ups ranging through the following two articles, you can see a clear transition between systems used involving Cruyff as a player, then as a coach:

https://spielverlagerung.de/2012/12/28/rinus-michels-der-general/

https://spielverlagerung.de/2016/03/24/traineranalyse-johan-cruijff/

You make a very good part of this that a certain part of this is due to modernisation and adapting to opponents playing differently as well 

[yonko]

19 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

This is a really interesting topic; I keep meaning to find time to contribute properly.

I fully agree with you about the Cruyff role. Obviously slightly less of a goalscorer than Messi, but I the movement and involvement levels are very similar. I also guess a lot depends on your definition of "playmaker".

Just looking at the formation set-ups ranging through the following two articles, you can see a clear transition between systems used involving Cruyff as a player, then as a coach:

https://spielverlagerung.de/2012/12/28/rinus-michels-der-general/

https://spielverlagerung.de/2016/03/24/traineranalyse-johan-cruijff/

You make a very good part of this that a certain part of this is due to modernisation and adapting to opponents playing differently as well 

Cruyff was less of a goalscorer than Messi because he dropped even deeper and roamed everywhere. Messi has this unique quality to his game to attack the penalty box from deeper positions at speed which completely changes the rhythm of the game. That's how many of his goals are scored.

No doubt both Cruyff and Messi are playmakers but not from the traditional number 10 spot.

Those are some interesting articles. Can I find them in English somewhere?

Both Michles and Cruyff adapted somewhat but the philosophy remains the same. Kind like how Pep Guardiola does it now. 

I personally think Cruyff was in love with the 3-4-3 shape and kind of fell out of love with the game and coaching once he was fired from Barca in the mid 90s. He didn't like the way football was changing. But still for me the most brilliant mind in football. His influence is everywhere now in modern football. Look how all teams are passing the ball and stringing combinations. Player movement in tight spaces, etc. 

Btw, I agree with you about the limitations of the Tactic Creator. For me the tactics side of FM is the most interesting and why I've been addicted to this game since 1993 and CM days. I've played every edition, every year since floppy disk.  Training and player development is the other aspect that is appealing to me from FM. 

I hope SI improve the game in those aspects for FM21. 

[04texag]

Spielverlagerung is a great site, but a lot of the older articles aren't in English. You can go to the .com version of the site and still lots of good reads. Unfortunately, I can't find either of those two

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

Those are some interesting articles. Can I find them in English somewhere?

I just used the translate feature through google. Makes them just about understandable, but obviously less enjoyable to read. Nevertheless I find the graphical representations fascinating 

Here's another I enjoyed - https://spielverlagerung.de/2012/07/15/gloria-ajax-oder-die-totale-fusballrevolution/

[04texag]

This is one I've bookmarked and enjoyed, it's in English

https://spielverlagerung.com/2016/03/07/how-to-create-a-game-model/?doing_wp_cron=1580599630.9506819248199462890625

 

[skyline72]

On 03/07/2020 at 01:26, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 thank you for the kind words.

I have dabbled with Football Manager 2020 but - honestly - I really cannot get into it. I did actually buy the game on sale a while ago as I wanted to implement my Arsenal set-up with the current squad. It's a highly-structured Overload system with lots of pressing and very quick transitions, but I couldn't get anywhere near the correct mentalities for the team.

For me - as most can probably tell - the tactical side of the game is most interesting and, unfortunately, the limitations in the current tactics creator take an a lot of that enjoyment away. I enjoy creating styles of play and watching them play out in the match engine and so many are no longer really possible.

It's a shame, but I have really enjoyed the journey. Life is going in a lot of different directions this year with a lot of upcoming travel as lockdown eases so realistically I am going to have less time anyway. Hence why it feels like this might realistically be my last one for a while 

Did you find that the tactic work what is supposedly to do irregardless of the individual mentality?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 03/07/2020 at 18:37, skyline72 said:

Did you find that the tactic work what is supposedly to do irregardless of the individual mentality?

Absolutely not. Individual mentality is one of the most influential tactical elements I see playing out again and again depending.

You'll notice it in terms of:

• Compactness
  • Play any system with two wide players, with one side having the same mentality and the other with a defensive DR/L and an Attacking AMR/L and look at the gap. That'll be multiple goals per season conceded right there.
• Decision making
  • Watch a DLP(D) in a system which gives him a Cautious or Defensive mentality and watch the never ending backwards and sideways passes.
• Relative movement
  • I rely on individual mentalities to create overlaps regularly - using a F9(S) with a IF(A) last season for example.
    • I still want my F9(S) having a balanced or ideally positive mentality and my IF(A) on Attacking, but not too extreme

Personally I know that I am very pedantic about it, but what can I say, it's difficult to change  I enjoy watching a well-constructed, well-organised team.

I get what you're trying to say that you might be able to simply ignore it and play, which is probably true; you might not see it in every game. But over the course of a season these will each make sizeable differences.

I do agree that you could probably minimise the issues, and get to a point where they would barely be noticeable but I just don't find it enjoyable.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

OK, maybe I have one more thread in me. Get ready for Tony Pulis' Stoke (Very Fluid)!

 

 

[skyline72]

 

[Impacto]

 

Oh, man... Another Masterpiece by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Like you, I still play FM 18 because I still enjoy it and I can't get into FM 20. I've followed your tactics for a while now, and they have made my FM experience so much more enjoyable. My favorite by far has been the Invicibles tactic, mainly because I am an Arsenal fan, but I just tried this one as I needed a bit of change in my Valencia save and I would like to share my experience so far. 

Let me give you a little background first. I won the league in the second season using a modified version of Pep's Barca again by Ozil. I wanted to use some DF and it worked great with Zaza. After winning 14 in a row at the start the season it was easy to win as the AI just can't stay consistant. In the third season I wanted to change it up a bit to make it more interesting. 

So just after 4 or 5 games of the season I switched it up. This is how the team looks now:

I removed 'Retain Possession' as I just hate it. 

The team did not take much time learning it, as the system and most of the instructions are the same. But the way we played changed drastically! 

Before the switch, most goals came from crosses to Zaza which he converted with ease. The other portion of goals were from piece of magic from Xadas, Vietto and set pieces. After the switch, goals come from everywhere. We score a bit less, and we create less chances overall, but the chances we create are easier to convert even if the game does not recognise it. Now the threat comes mainly from midfield. 

The whole MF trio is just superb. The Move in the channels PI is making all the difference. I play Coquelin as the box to box and he gets into so many scoring situations and actually finishes some of them off! In fact, he is the reason I am even writing this  He was injured for a while and Soler was playing there and he was scoring every game. Those runs are magical! 

The players on the wings suffer a bit more, but because they are all on support the whole team defends as a unit. We are a bit less stable, however, as removing the HB hurt us quite a bit in defence. We concede a bit more chances, but I feel this is more realistic. They also get a bit more tired, even though the pressing has not changed. For some reason though, we don't dominate possession as much as before, especially away. I don't know why and I can't be bothered to watch full games to see where the issue is and we are still winning so there is that . 

I am also not very impressed with the Mezzala. Whoever plays there is the least impressive so far and I don't see them popping in great positions as the box to box one. Even the DLP gets more opportunities to score atm.

Overall though I have to say I am loving it so far. Le Coq is becoming a legend, bossing the midfield and scoring a bit with his 7 finishing lol. The team is playing as a unit, not so much reliant on individual class, but more on the team effort. And because I've never actually gotten Total Football to work the way I want to, this is really fun to play with right now. 

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

9 hours ago, Impacto said:

 

Oh, man... Another Masterpiece by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Like you, I still play FM 18 because I still enjoy it and I can't get into FM 20. I've followed your tactics for a while now, and they have made my FM experience so much more enjoyable. My favorite by far has been the Invicibles tactic, mainly because I am an Arsenal fan, but I just tried this one as I needed a bit of change in my Valencia save and I would like to share my experience so far. 

Let me give you a little background first. I won the league in the second season using a modified version of Pep's Barca again by Ozil. I wanted to use some DF and it worked great with Zaza. After winning 14 in a row at the start the season it was easy to win as the AI just can't stay consistant. In the third season I wanted to change it up a bit to make it more interesting. 

So just after 4 or 5 games of the season I switched it up. This is how the team looks now:

I removed 'Retain Possession' as I just hate it. 

The team did not take much time learning it, as the system and most of the instructions are the same. But the way we played changed drastically! 

Before the switch, most goals came from crosses to Zaza which he converted with ease. The other portion of goals were from piece of magic from Xadas, Vietto and set pieces. After the switch, goals come from everywhere. We score a bit less, and we create less chances overall, but the chances we create are easier to convert even if the game does not recognise it. Now the threat comes mainly from midfield. 

The whole MF trio is just superb. The Move in the channels PI is making all the difference. I play Coquelin as the box to box and he gets into so many scoring situations and actually finishes some of them off! In fact, he is the reason I am even writing this  He was injured for a while and Soler was playing there and he was scoring every game. Those runs are magical! 

The players on the wings suffer a bit more, but because they are all on support the whole team defends as a unit. We are a bit less stable, however, as removing the HB hurt us quite a bit in defence. We concede a bit more chances, but I feel this is more realistic. They also get a bit more tired, even though the pressing has not changed. For some reason though, we don't dominate possession as much as before, especially away. I don't know why and I can't be bothered to watch full games to see where the issue is and we are still winning so there is that . 

I am also not very impressed with the Mezzala. Whoever plays there is the least impressive so far and I don't see them popping in great positions as the box to box one. Even the DLP gets more opportunities to score atm.

Overall though I have to say I am loving it so far. Le Coq is becoming a legend, bossing the midfield and scoring a bit with his 7 finishing lol. The team is playing as a unit, not so much reliant on individual class, but more on the team effort. And because I've never actually gotten Total Football to work the way I want to, this is really fun to play with right now. 

Fantastic. Thank you for sharing, and welcome! 

That's a nice looking team you have built there. Very nicely balanced and some real potential coming through.

Have you tried Xadas in the Mezzala role? I am not sure what other options you have for the right forward but I always preferred him centrally. I did have Soler in the Barcelona save a few years back and preferred him deeper, but then attributes may have changed since then so I cannot say that with too much confidence.

Looking at your league position and previous title, it looks like you might be able to really take this somewhere. Good luck 

[Impacto]

Thank you for having me! I followed your threads for a while as well as this forum in general, and I got the itch to start posting. 

I actually didn't build much, most of the team was already here and the board gives me no money to invest. When I won the league they rewarded me with 7 milion pounds... After I sold my back up RB I raised the budget to around 11m which I spent to make Vietto a permanent signing. Xadas was super cheap - got him in the first season  in addition to Maresic for whom I paid around 3m as he got 6 months remaining. I am also restricting myself to only get players who are recomended by the scouts, to make the game a bit harder. It's working so far! 

I hear you about Xadas. I got him to play as an AP in the middle initially, but because Rodrigo was a flop on the right side I gave him a chance there and he took it. He was incredible and that is why I am still using him there. Surprisingly clinical with his finishing and heading in addition to his great dribbling and passing. I can't get a proper AMR at the moment as I still have no money to spend, but I see him as a part of the MF trio in the future. I've used him before in Arsenal and he was alright. 

I played Soler deeper in the beginning too because he is such a great all rounder. In the end I dedcided that Parejo is better at that deeper role, better long shots and tackling, and as he gets older his speed and dribbling will go down, so DLP is perfect for him I think. Soler's attributes are as you would expect, a proper complete player and I see him as the perfect box to box in this system. I just can't drop Le Coq at the moment so he has to settle for the Mezzala role   

I have to say this save has become quite interesting. The board are unsupportive, they just take dividents and give nothing.  We have no money but we are playing amazing football. I can't give big wages so players will want to leave soon and I don't want to sell anyone as I love them all. Fun stuff! 

[Impacto]

Alright, now that I finished a full season playing Total Football I want to quickly share my experience. First of all, IT'S AMAZING TO WATCH!! Serously, the movement, the passing, the goals are all amazing. Obviously at Valencia I have decent players, but still it's incredible. 

When the team learned the tactic fully magic started to happen. Goals come from everywhere and because of the relentless pressing we scored quite a fair bit from counter attacks in addition to great build up goals. The IF on support I hated at first, but they grew on me. The stay a bit lower compared to IF on attack, but they help a lot in defence and are now way more focused on helping the team instead of just chasing goals. I mentioned the Mezzala not being very impressive in the beginning, that all changed soon after I posted. The Mezzala is key to our pressing and counter attacks, I am really glad I did not change it and gave it a chance. 

Now I now why we don't have that much possession - we are just super effective going forward, no messing about. The team is very progressive and players are making runs all the time. The most impressive runner though is the box to box player. I used Coquelin as I said because he is undroppable for me. I'm loyal like that  With his 7 finishing he ended up scoring 10 goals this season, thanks to his great runs in the box. And he missed so many chances, too... Imagine if I had someone like Pogba? 20 goals minimum.

I was also very impressed with the False 9. Zaza is always a beast, as the DF last season he scored 30 goals in the league and had around 5 assits. This season, as the False 9 he had 27 goals in the league, with 16 assists in the league! Quite an improvement. 

We scored 100 goals in the league and won it again, this time it was harder as Real Madrid brought Pogba and Kane to strenghten, but it was still not enough. To be fair, the AI as always gave up 4 games before the end... so annoying. I was pumped to see if we can actually do it again and then they just gave up and lost easy games... anyway, here is the table:

I was hoping for more of a challenge, but what can you do... I still had fun watching the team play. In the CL we lost to Monaco in the first knockout round. They ended up trashing PSG and are now in the final, so no regrets there. I think to win CL I am going to have to improve the squad, big teams overpower me at the moment outside of Spain and the team doesn't get going in those matches unfortunately.  Speaking of the team, here are the numbers of the main guys:

Look how nicely the goals are spread. And the assists count is insane as well. I love it!  

Here are some screens of Zaza, Vietto, Xadas, Soler and Le Coq:

I have to say I am very impressed. This tactic is an absolute MASTERPIECE and an incredible fun to play. Forget about the league win, I was probably going to win it anyway as I know how to keep my teams consistent, but the way the team played was so sexy.. I even watched the pointless games, normally I just instant result them, but with this tactic I want to see what my players have in store for me.  It's that good. 

Nothing will ever beat the Invicibles tactic for me, but this one is a veeeery close second. 

 

[Veertien]

Hello guys!

I'm trying to play a "Total Football" style in Serie B (Italian 2nd level).
I have just started (friendlies, 2 Cup matches and 1 League match) but I think the play is developing well.

This is the way I'm playing now:

I was using Complete Wing-Back but I have noticied they crossed A LOT! Sadly, I cannot select Cross Less Often in CWB, so I changed them to Wing-Back, who still have Positive mentality.
Other instruction I have selected are:
BPDs: Dribble More (I'm not sure if keeping that, seems dangerous for a low level team)
WBs: Stay Wider
BBM: Move Into Channels
IWs: Cross Less Often, Get Further Forward, Roam From Position
F9: Roam From Position

As I was saying, the playing of the team is good, but I've found the F9 to be poorly involved in the offensive play.
Do you have any suggestion to make him more "reachable"? Team seems to like more to develop game on the flanks, although I've selected Focus Play Through The Middle...

[skyline72]

1 hour ago, Veertien said:

Hello guys!

I'm trying to play a "Total Football" style in Serie B (Italian 2nd level).
I have just started (friendlies, 2 Cup matches and 1 League match) but I think the play is developing well.

This is the way I'm playing now:

I was using Complete Wing-Back but I have noticied they crossed A LOT! Sadly, I cannot select Cross Less Often in CWB, so I changed them to Wing-Back, who still have Positive mentality.
Other instruction I have selected are:
BPDs: Dribble More (I'm not sure if keeping that, seems dangerous for a low level team)
WBs: Stay Wider
BBM: Move Into Channels
IWs: Cross Less Often, Get Further Forward, Roam From Position
F9: Roam From Position

As I was saying, the playing of the team is good, but I've found the F9 to be poorly involved in the offensive play.
Do you have any suggestion to make him more "reachable"? Team seems to like more to develop game on the flanks, although I've selected Focus Play Through The Middle...

F9 is a demanding role. 

Do you have the right player for that role?

[Veertien]

7 hours ago, skyline72 said:

F9 is a demanding role. 

Do you have the right player for that role?

I'm actually alternating (is correct? english is not my first language) 3 players in that role, here they are:

 

What do you think? Are they fitting or I have to look for someone else?

[skyline72]

7 hours ago, Veertien said:

I'm actually alternating (is correct? english is not my first language) 3 players in that role, here they are:

 

What do you think? Are they fitting or I have to look for someone else?

Thiago Almada looks good. 

Can ask him to "Come deep to get ball" which is a good trait for a F9.

[CaptCanuck]

16 hours ago, Veertien said:

I'm actually alternating (is correct? english is not my first language) 3 players in that role, here they are:

 

What do you think? Are they fitting or I have to look for someone else?

'Alternating' is spot on :-)

I've got Salcedo on my Brighton save and he's played solidly for me as a DLF and equally well as a left-sided IF: he's my 2nd leading scorer this season. Just some food for thought if you rotate the squad and/or want to maximize your substitutes bench. Out in the IW spot, cutting in on that right foot for instance.

Edited August 18, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[Veertien]

On 27/05/2020 at 19:41, Akranion said:

Thank you for this post, this is my favourite style of play. I want to share how I translated to FM20.

 

 

All players on positive, besides F9 who is balanced. All the front 5 have Roam from position and the IWs have Get Further Forward. I'm playing Southampton first season and they don't have a great squad for this style of play but the addition of Ajer who is a very complete player and a great pivot, Almada and Vanheusden will help the team a lot,

My early results (Match against City was a surprise for me):

Hello @Akranion, are them the only personal instructions that you have added to the players?

[Impacto]

Something really cool happened in a recent game(FM 18) and I wanted to mention it. I'm currently playing with Arsenal and I'm just having fun, winning things and destroying Man Utd, you know, the usual stuff. I just played a game against Huddersfield and I had to rotate the squad as they were tired after a tough away game against Lyon in the CL. I had to rest De Bruyne and since Savic was injured, I decided to rely on Joe Willock to perform the Box-to-Box position for this game. He is not up to par with the rest of the squad, but he has potential and decent Team Work and Work Rate - both at 13. 

So, what happened was, in the above mentioned game, we were getting attacked and Mustafi(who is a beast for me btw) decided to go ahead and press very high alongside Ramsey, leaving loads of space behind him. Their strikers run into the space immidietely and the pass got through, but Willock super intelligently took Mustafi's place in defence and intercepted it with ease. 

I have never, ever seen such intelligent play in defence in FM for all my years playing the game. Even the DLP who normally has very high anticipation doesn't do this, let alone a young kid playing way further up. This is why I wanted to mention it, as it was surreal. It sounds simple, but to me it was incredible to watch. Just another highlight of this incredible masterpiece by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Some more takeaways from my recent save:

- You don't need a F9 to use as F9. I use Aubameyang and he scored 40+ goals and had 20+ assists last season. In the cups, I played Nketiah who is very similar in terms of attributes to Auba and he did very well too. With Valencia Zaza performed similarly and he is a totally different player than those two, so as long as the striker is generally good, it can work very well. 

- This tactic can carry weaker players. For example, I gave youngster Marc Bola(LB), who never ever becomes a premierleague player a run in the team because of injuries, and he was super stable. The fact that the whole team defends as a unit really helps youngsters, so this tactic is perfect for developing youth players. 

- The DLP is perfect in attack and defence. Normally, players in the DM strata don't contribute much in offence. But here the DLP not only is super helpful in defence, he also scores goals from distance and even finds himself in the box from time to time. I used a 32 year old Fabregas who can barely run last season and he scored a few goals and helped us win the title. This season I loaned him out to Feyanoord as he was just a one season experiment for good old times and he is dreadful in the much weaker Eredivise. But for me he was brilliant, which just shows again how this tactic can bring the best out of your players. 

- Keepers often get decent ratings because they make lots of passes. Same goes for the BPDs as well. I know some people hate it that GKs don't get good ratings on FM, so I though I would mention it. 

- It's a proper Plug and Play if you know what you're doing. By that I mean - unless you're clueless about football and FM, you can use it with any team as long as you pick the right type of players and manage them properly. It also does not require any tinkering, unless you want to. I personally hate "retain possession" so I removed it. Still plays amazing. Sometimes I change roles and even positions when needed, but generally I leave it as is regardless of the opposition. 

- Because the whole team plays as a unit, you can use lesser players. In the cups I like to rotate A LOT. I just beat a full fledged Man Utd side with Dybala, Sanchez and all their best players with my reserves and youth. I did not just beat them, I completely shut them down for the whole 90. Sure, we didn't had as many chances as normal, but we still won 2:0.  

So yeah, this is definately my new favourite tactics in all of FM, slightly nudging the Wenger Invincibles. After a few seasons I might try out the 3-6-1 version, just to see how it compares to this masterpiece. Oh crap, this was going to be a short post.. oh well. 

I urge anybody who is bored with FM currently or wants to see his team play wonderful winning football to load up FM 18 and give this a try if you haven't already. You wont regret it! 

[crusadertsar]

@Impacto I second on FM18 suggestion. Really the best FM to date on recreating Total Football style. Along with FM17. At least for getting good feedback from in-game results reflecting your tactical instructions. And @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! amazing Benfica thread drew me to it again.

Edited September 8, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Fieldsy]

33 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

@Impacto I second on FM18 suggestion. Really the best FM to date on recreating Total Football style. Along with FM17. At least for getting good feedback from in-game results reflecting your tactical instructions. And @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! amazing Benfica thread drew me to it again.

This. I have tried fm20 multiple times but just can’t get past the issue of central play. I loaded up fm18 with a similar tactic I used on fm20 and it is night and day.  More movement from the lone striker, 10 yard passes from edge of the box for a goal opportunity etc. The long shot issue is annoying but I can take that!

i just hope that fm21 manages the ultra defensive tactics from AI and lack of central play and movement.

[crusadertsar]

50 minutes ago, Fieldsy said:

This. I have tried fm20 multiple times but just can’t get past the issue of central play. I loaded up fm18 with a similar tactic I used on fm20 and it is night and day.  More movement from the lone striker, 10 yard passes from edge of the box for a goal opportunity etc. The long shot issue is annoying but I can take that!

i just hope that fm21 manages the ultra defensive tactics from AI and lack of central play and movement.

Let's hope!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 08/09/2020 at 19:36, Fieldsy said:

This. I have tried fm20 multiple times but just can’t get past the issue of central play. I loaded up fm18 with a similar tactic I used on fm20 and it is night and day.  More movement from the lone striker, 10 yard passes from edge of the box for a goal opportunity etc. The long shot issue is annoying but I can take that!

i just hope that fm21 manages the ultra defensive tactics from AI and lack of central play and movement.

Yea, FM2017 was good. 2018 I think peaked for the tactics creator. I have tried FM20 a couple of times but find the tactics creator so much more limited. Sadly I think the ship has sailed until the next 'overhaul' of the tactics creator.

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yea, FM2017 was good. 2018 I think peaked for the tactics creator. I have tried FM20 a couple of times but find the tactics creator so much more limited. Sadly I think the ship has sailed until the next 'overhaul' of the tactics creator.

Yup and unfortunately we don't know when this "overhaul" could come. I'm almost certain it's not going to be in FM21. It could be with FM22 or also not for another 5 versions. 

[Gegenklaus]

What kind of overhaul are you guys thinking? And what is wrong with the current tactics creator (except that its hard decode the individual player mentality and so on)? 

[crusadertsar]

10 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

And what is wrong with the current tactics creator (except that its hard decode the individual player mentality and so on)? 

Are you actually serious?

[Gegenklaus]

4 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Are you actually serious?

I'm not trying to troll you. I think there is plenty of wrong things about the match engine, but I legit wanted to know what you guys think is wrong with the tactics creator and what should be different.

[Impacto]

8 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

What kind of overhaul are you guys thinking? And what is wrong with the current tactics creator (except that its hard decode the individual player mentality and so on)? 

It's way too restrictive. On previous FMs you had a lot more freedom and a lot more styles of play were viable. You could make the team play exactly the way you want it to. On FM 20 that is much harder. There is a reason so many of us love FM 17 and FM 18. 

 

25 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yup and unfortunately we don't know when this "overhaul" could come. I'm almost certain it's not going to be in FM21. It could be with FM22 or also not for another 5 versions. 

Yeah, they just started with this ME. Judging by what SI has done in the past, I don't expect any major overhauls any time soon. I just hope the small refinements they make on this one improve things a lot. 

[Gegenklaus]

1 minute ago, Impacto said:

It's way too restrictive. On previous FMs you had a lot more freedom and a lot more styles of play were viable. You could make the team play exactly the way you want it to. On FM 20 that is much harder. There is a reason so many of us love FM 17 and FM 18.

I understand. Are we talking about the removal of "The Team Shape" as a tool to distribute individual player mentalities whereas now we only have duty and the overall mentality?

[Impacto]

1 minute ago, Gegenklaus said:

I understand. Are we talking about the removal of "The Team Shape" as a tool to distribute individual player mentalities whereas now we only have duty and the overall mentality?

It's only part of it. It's hard to explain, at least for me. I'm sure you're aware of all the current ME issues. For me, It's just the way the game feels. I play FM 18 and FM 20 side to side at the moment and FM 20 feels a lot less fun when it comes to actually watching the games. Recreating real life tactics seems almost impossible. Don't get me wrong, as I've said before, as a standalone game FM 20 it's brilliant, I just feel it's ME is inferior to previous versions. 

[Gegenklaus]

1 minute ago, Impacto said:

It's only part of it. It's hard to explain, at least for me. I'm sure you're aware of all the current ME issues. For me, It's just the way the game feels. I play FM 18 and FM 20 side to side at the moment and FM 20 feels a lot less fun when it comes to actually watching the games. Recreating real life tactics seems almost impossible. Don't get me wrong, as I've said before, as a standalone game FM 20 it's brilliant, I just feel it's ME is inferior to previous versions. 

I feel you for sure. But I think that is more an ME issue than a tactics creator - as I have welcomed a lot of the changes to the tactics creator - the transitional instructions for example. Being able to tell your players how to act when recovering/losing possession is nice. But you are right. There is something wrong when you just watches the matches. The goals. The way the AI plays. Its not just as fun as say FM18. 

I might just go back to FM18 as that is the latest one I enjoyed the most. The Half Back is working correctly there, right? 

[crusadertsar]

5 minutes ago, Impacto said:

It's only part of it. It's hard to explain, at least for me. I'm sure you're aware of all the current ME issues. For me, It's just the way the game feels. I play FM 18 and FM 20 side to side at the moment and FM 20 feels a lot less fun when it comes to actually watching the games. Recreating real life tactics seems almost impossible. Don't get me wrong, as I've said before, as a standalone game FM 20 it's brilliant, I just feel it's ME is inferior to previous versions. 

Exactly. A good example is in trying to implement @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! style Total Football systems. It's so much harder to get them working than in FM17 or FM18. I would know because I have been trying to do this for almost all my time with FM20 since beta. And good luck if 4-1-2-3 DM wide was your favourite go-to shape in previous versions.

 

[Gegenklaus]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

Exactly. A good example is in trying to implement @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! style Total Football systems. It's so much harder to get them working than in FM17 or FM18. I would know because I have been trying to do this for almost all my time with FM20 since beta. And good luck if 4-1-2-3 DM wide was your favourite go-to shape in previous versions.

Ait, I understand. Team Shape was pretty much the most important instruction to achieve that kind of style and when I finally got the hang of it - and understand it to a degree so I could picture how a team would look as Fluid or Structured - they removed it.  

I might actually fire up FM18 to revisit that match engine and see if I really remember that as being much more fun than the one in FM19/20 (where there is a complete lack of central play and teams (for some reason?!) plays ultra defensive football with no intention of getting forward). 

[crusadertsar]

3 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

 I might actually fire up FM18 to revisit that match engine and see if I really remember that as being much more fun than the one in FM19/20 (where there is a complete lack of central play and teams (for some reason?!) plays ultra defensive football with no intention of getting forward). 

 That's the reason why your statement earlier shocked me. But now I see you meant the tactic creator and not ME. Sadly despite all the improvements in the tactic creator, the things I put in bold here is what turned me off the game.