Total Football (Very Fluid)

[Gegenklaus]

10 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

 That's the reason why your statement earlier shocked me. But now I see you meant the tactic creator and not ME. Sadly despite all the improvements in the tactic creator, the things I put in bold here is what turned me off the game.

Aaaaah, we just misunderstood each other then. Next FM will be better (as I told myself when FM19 was tried and tested and ultimate a disappointment). 

Since we shouldn't derail this thread too much then what kind of system are you rocking in FM18? 

[crusadertsar]

4 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Aaaaah, we just misunderstood each other then. Next FM will be better (as I told myself when FM19 was tried and tested and ultimate a disappointment). 

Since we shouldn't derail this thread too much then what kind of system are you rocking in FM18? 

Still doing Total Football fluid system, a la 1994 Ajax 

[Impacto]

1 hour ago, Gegenklaus said:

I might just go back to FM18 as that is the latest one I enjoyed the most. The Half Back is working correctly there, right? 

It does and I really liked it. I prefer DLP a bit more, but if you want your playmakers more advanced, the HB is a great option behind them for possession based systems. 

[Tomor29]

On 31/05/2020 at 14:04, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Edit: just tagging @fmFutbolManager to make sure you see the link above as it may be useful for your mentality calculator.. 

OK so this should indeed be a 'go to' resource for anyone trying to navigate the Football Manager 2020 tactics creator. Thanks again for sharing.

Nothing new for those who have followed the Caixa Academy threat but it's nicely laid out all in one place.

Applying this to the style of play we are trying to create gives two options:

Which gives you:

                   Balanced
Positive                              Positive
           Positive        Positive
                   Positive
Positive   Positive        Positive   Positive
                   Positive

Or knock the mentality down to positive, switch to inside forwards and have the fullbacks overlap for:

Which gives you:
 

                   Balanced
Attacking                             Attacking
           Positive        Positive
                   Balanced
Attacking  Balanced        Balanced   Attacking
                   Balanced

Unfortunately you lose the mystique of the entire team playing the collective, attacking football but both should work pretty well 

 

This is a fantastic thread and some really nice discussion and tips regarding total football. I have to appreciate all the hard work and knowledge of many users in this and other threads regarding this style of football. After reading this I tried to create tactic for my AZ team and implement total football there but even with the "recommended" setup had very limited success - we are getting wins but I would describe it as "winning ugly", have only limited number of chances and goals scored and surely are not playing any kind of total football.

Now I am reading that it is difficult to successfully create this style of play in FM20, so my question is - has anyone success with implementing these ideas in FM20 saves and actually playing any kind of total football? Many thanks for your answers.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Tomor29

[crusadertsar]

45 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

This is a fantastic thread and some really nice discussion and tips regarding total football. I have to appreciate all the hard work and knowledge of many users in this and other threads regarding this style of football. After reading this I tried to create tactic for my AZ team and implement total football there but even with the "recommended" setup had very limited success - we are getting wins but I would describe it as "winning ugly", have only limited number of chances and goals scored and surely are not playing any kind of total football.

Now I am reading that it is difficult to successfully create this style of play in FM20, so my question is - has anyone success with implementing these ideas in FM20 saves and actually playing any kind of total football? Many thanks for your answers.

I don't like to tout my own horn but I sort of been trying this on and off since FM19 and have been chronicling it on here and on the dictatethegame fan site. It used to be much more satisfying and effective but kinda dropped after a few patches to FM20. But here is the thread if you want to see my earlier attempts. 

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Tomor29]

7 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I don't like to tour my own horn but I sort of been trying this on and off since FM19 and have been chronicling it on here and on the dictatethegame fan site. It used to be much more satisfying and effective but kinda dropped after a few patches to FM20. But here is the thread if you want to see my earlier attempts. 

 

Well, I have read all your articles many times (fantastic work and great reading btw.) and used many of your ideas. I tried many versions of TF but really never managed to reproduce nice, free-flowing total football.

Then I found this thread with some other great ideas and a bit different approach to TF and really liked the idea of creating team on same (or very similar) mentalities and mostly support duties. It is all well explained and makes sense. But I tried various versions and really never ended with nice style of play. We may be winning but surely not producing THAT style of football and all of sudden we are scoring MUCH LESS than before - all in contrary to ideas of TF. So my question is - has anyone successfully implemented O-zil´s ideas to FM20 and producing some nice football then?

[crusadertsar]

46 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

Well, I have read all your articles many times (fantastic work and great reading btw.) and used many of your ideas. I tried many versions of TF but really never managed to reproduce nice, free-flowing total football.

Then I found this thread with some other great ideas and a bit different approach to TF and really liked the idea of creating team on same (or very similar) mentalities and mostly support duties. It is all well explained and makes sense. But I tried various versions and really never ended with nice style of play. We may be winning but surely not producing THAT style of football and all of sudden we are scoring MUCH LESS than before - all in contrary to ideas of TF. So my question is - has anyone successfully implemented O-zil´s ideas to FM20 and producing some nice football then?

Unfortunately that's the thing, O-zil's ideas of using mostly support duties don't really work with FM20. Or not anymore. That's the reason why many of us went back to FM18. Maybe with a lot weird tactical tinkering like using extremely cautious overal team mentality combined with aggressive attack duties. Or very low tempo. You might make it work in a similar way. But i find it's gotten too counterintuitive. Like why do we have to do such complex tactical gymnastics, sometimes using very defensive team mentality and aggressive roles to recreate something that in FM18 was possible with just Very Fluid approach, some generalist support roles and barely any team instructions?

Edited September 18, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Tomor29]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

Unfortunately that's the thing, O-zil's ideas of using mostly support duties don't really work with FM20. Or not anymore. That's the reason why many of us went back to FM18. Maybe with a lot weird tactical tinkering like using extremely cautious overal team mentality combined with aggressive attack duties. Or very low tempo. You might make it work in a similar way. But i find it's gotten too counterintuitive. Like why do we have to do such complex tactical gymnastics, sometimes using very defensive team mentality and aggressive roles to recreate something that in FM18 was possible with just Very Fluid approach, some generalist support roles and barely any team instructions?

Many thanks for your answer. Good to know that it doesn´t make sense to go this way in FM20. I do not like the idea to going back to previous versions as I like some other aspects of current game, so will look for other tactics.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Tomor29

[crusadertsar]

20 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

Many thanks for your answer. Good to know that it doesn´t make sense to go this way in FM20. I do not like the idea to going back to previous versions as I like some other aspects of current game, so will look for other tactics.

That's too bad, i feel you man. But I heard that this little-known strategy called "Geggenpress" works very well in FM20 

Edited September 18, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Gegenklaus]

@crusadertsar I just played some matches on FM18 and my god the difference. The entertainment value are so much more and my favorite formation, the flat 4-1-4-1, can really be a offensive high pressing beast that it simply cant on fm20. I might actually just go play that instead. Do you play with any new databases?

Edited September 21, 2020 by Gegenklaus

[crusadertsar]

40 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

@crusadertsar I just played some matches on FM18 and my god the difference. The entertainment valmue are so much larger and my favorite formation, the flat 4-1-4-1 can really be a offensive high pressing beast that it simply cant on fm20. I might actually just go play that instead. Do you play with any new databases?

Nah I just went back to playing my old saves. Everton and Rostock FC.

I'm glad you are enjoying it! The difference is like night and day.

But we should probably take this discussion to another thread. Start FM17 and FM18 appreciation thread haha. So as not to derail this one and get it locked.

 

[Tomor29]

21 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

That's too bad, i feel you man. But I heard that this little-known strategy called "Geggenpress" works very well in FM20 

I usually do not have any big problem to create some kind of winning tactic but this time I wanted to replicate some specific kind of football (mainly total football that I really like and admire) instead. I do not want to just win but mainly win in an exact way. It´s a pitty that it is hardly possible in this edition but I still really like the game and I am already looking for FM21 and its new additions.

[Impacto]

5 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

I usually do not have any big problem to create some kind of winning tactic but this time I wanted to replicate some specific kind of football (mainly total football that I really like and admire) instead. I do not want to just win but mainly win in an exact way. It´s a pitty that it is hardly possible in this edition but I still really like the game and I am already looking for FM21 and its new additions.

Check out the 3-4-3 Cruiff thread from Ozil, one guy there posted  a decent updated version of it on FM 20. I tested it for a bit and it played really well, winning a fair amount too. It's not FM 18 quality, but nothing on FM 20 can get that good anyway. it's as close to total football that FM 20 can get or at least the best one that I've seen/tried yet.  

[ElJefe4]

For those that have tried this on FM20, would you recommend using Inverted Wingers or Inside Forwards? I'm currently using Inverted Wingers in order to keep the individual mentalities on positive, but they're not really positioning themselves as aggressively as I'd like. Considering a swap to Inside Forwards but not sure if it would upset the balance too much defensively? 

My wingers are circled below.

As you can see they're in the middle third rather than the final third and as such can't really make those threatening runs represented by the arrows. This, coupled with the False 9 naturally dropping a little bit deeper means that we don't have much threat in behind.

As a result, we tend to take a bit too long to progress the ball to the final third, by which time the defence can regroup and there isn't really enough space to play in behind. At this point we often get forced out to the wing backs for hopeful crosses to the back post. Its still fairly effective but not exactly creating the clear cut chances I've seen @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! demonstrate so often by slipping runners in behind. It also means that my talented midfield players (particularly Aouar) aren't getting enough space to work in or enough runners to find.

Would appreciate any thoughts guys?

Edit - Would you play the highest defensive line possible with most urgent pressing possible as well? This is what I've used so far as it's been good defensively and allowed me to dominate possession, but I've read before that taking it down a notch can encourage teams to come out slightly more and allow a bit more space in behind when we do win it back. Is there anything in that?

Edited September 22, 2020 by ElJefe4

[robinthebest]

On 18/09/2020 at 19:15, Gegenklaus said:

Ait, I understand. Team Shape was pretty much the most important instruction to achieve that kind of style and when I finally got the hang of it - and understand it to a degree so I could picture how a team would look as Fluid or Structured - they removed it.  

I might actually fire up FM18 to revisit that match engine and see if I really remember that as being much more fun than the one in FM19/20 (where there is a complete lack of central play and teams (for some reason?!) plays ultra defensive football with no intention of getting forward). 

totally agreed, FM 19 and 20 has 0 central play, every game is basically the same if u play a lone striker, the mc receives a ball, ur striker never comes deep and AMRL never tries to make fowards run into the box to receive passes from MCs, instead the MCs will pass to DMC or just makes cross field pass to your DR/L, so boring, 0 variety of attacking moves, no matter what tactics you use there are 0 central play

[afailed10]

9 hours ago, robinthebest said:

totally agreed, FM 19 and 20 has 0 central play, every game is basically the same if u play a lone striker, the mc receives a ball, ur striker never comes deep and AMRL never tries to make fowards run into the box to receive passes from MCs, instead the MCs will pass to DMC or just makes cross field pass to your DR/L, so boring, 0 variety of attacking moves, no matter what tactics you use there are 0 central play

That's not entirely true. I have central play in my 4231 even against very defensive teams. You just need to stretch them by careful placement of roles/duties/ppms etc. 

What happens is that most tactics overload the center opening space only in the flanks but what if you did it the other way? Now, I agree it's much harder on FM20 than it was on FM18 but 18 was too easy and it's not realistic at all as it was mostly a glaring deficiency in the AI tactics and in defending. In real life you can't imagine it would be as linear as asking some team to play generic and symmetric roles and duties and let them enjoy themselves, right? Maybe in the 90s

The main issue with more recent FM's is the ambiguity in the TC. I feel that not even most admins here fully understand the implications of every tactical instruction and, more importantly, how they translate to the match engine. You have to watch the games in full and experiment a lot to get where you want.

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by afailed10

[crusadertsar]

10 hours ago, robinthebest said:

totally agreed, FM 19 and 20 has 0 central play, every game is basically the same if u play a lone striker, the mc receives a ball, ur striker never comes deep and AMRL never tries to make fowards run into the box to receive passes from MCs, instead the MCs will pass to DMC or just makes cross field pass to your DR/L, so boring, 0 variety of attacking moves, no matter what tactics you use there are 0 central play

Exactly. And not to mention your MC passing back to your Keeper the moment they get pressured by the opposition even when you are playing on Positive mentality. 

[ElJefe4]

23 hours ago, robinthebest said:

totally agreed, FM 19 and 20 has 0 central play, every game is basically the same if u play a lone striker, the mc receives a ball, ur striker never comes deep and AMRL never tries to make fowards run into the box to receive passes from MCs, instead the MCs will pass to DMC or just makes cross field pass to your DR/L, so boring, 0 variety of attacking moves, no matter what tactics you use there are 0 central play

I've struggled with this, very repetitive patterns of play. Mentioned it in my post above. Are you playing with a playmaker in midfield? I've altered my tactic slightly and the football has been much more aesthetically pleasing. I've changed my DLP (D) to a standard CM (D). Had to move him up from the DM to CM strata as none of the roles in the DM strata suited what I want. Anyway, now he's on CM (D) the football is a better watch.

Players aren't slowing down and looking for him as much, they're now more free to just pick the best pass available. For the first time I'm seeing my 2 other CMs picking up pockets of space and combining with the front 3.

It's not a quick fix, my possession stats are WAY down from regularly having 65% possession to 50/50. It still needs tweaks but if you're looking for more fluid football I would definitely suggest considering not having a playmaker. 

[ElJefe4]

Following on from the above, an example of how not using a playmaker in midfield allows other players (particularly creative midfielders) to play more positively. 

Above, Aouar (LCM, Mez, Support) has the ball in a fairly common position for him. When using my central/deepest midfielder as a DLP, I would usually see Aouar simply play 'pass 1', almost completely ignoring his own creative skills and PPM of 'tries killer balls'. That pass would typically be followed by the DLP playing passing option 'A' or 'B'. I'm sure we've all seen that scenario play out countless times, to the extent that you're almost sighing as soon as the DLP looks for one of those floated balls out to a full back.

However, now none of my midfielders are the designated playmaker, Aouar doesn't need to defer to anyone else. Instead, he can assess his options and attempt the best pass, which in this case is a tricky through ball the the AMR. 

Unfortunately, Reine-Adelaide doesn't convert, but it does still illustrate how not having a playmaker allows for much more intelligent decision making, fluidity of movement and more unpredictable patterns of play.

[llama3]

On 11/06/2020 at 20:46, denen123 said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I just want to say a big thank you for what you've done for this forum, over the years. Your threads have always given this simulator to what is many feel is complex. I know it is not a "retirement" thread, but I'm grateful for how much color you've added to the game. You're a Legend. 

 

Thank You.

On a rare visit - totally agree. @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! your articles give me lots of food for thought and ideas. I'm not normally short of a balanced and sensible system, but the systems I have used, inspired by your ideas on here has helped me to 9 league titles, a champions league, countless domestic cups, a world club cup, nations league, euros, world cup in a glittering 15 year career. I love learning from what other people do.

[buachuta]

On 25/09/2020 at 18:52, llama3 said:

On a rare visit - totally agree. @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! your articles give me lots of food for thought and ideas. I'm not normally short of a balanced and sensible system, but the systems I have used, inspired by your ideas on here has helped me to 9 league titles, a champions league, countless domestic cups, a world club cup, nations league, euros, world cup in a glittering 15 year career. I love learning from what other people do.

Do you play FM20? Would love to see more interpretations coming from FM20, because most people have a success with this type of football on previous FM's.

[zlatanera]

@buachuta I'm on FM19 but have had some very successful sides using tactics that (once intentionally, once accidentally) were copied from the Benfica thread which this one is an extension of.

Firstly, almost a year ago now, I found great success using my own adaptation of his Overload 4-2-3-1 with my Lyon side, culminating in a clean sweep of Ligue 1 (103 points), Champions League, Coupe de France, Coupe de la Ligue and Trophée des Champions.

Although its a while ago now, there was probably more of a focus on set pieces than the FM18 tactic I was copying, although as @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! later claimed one of the things he would do better the 2nd time round was train someone good at set pieces I'm not too concerned about this. Still, some good football, strong youth development and great results despite nobody having a mentality labelled higher than Positive. Barely any in-game tweaks either, or I might have been more successful on the continental stage. This was after they tweaked the ME again away from the one with the OP long shots (which was fun, but definitely discredits my earlier achievements with Andreas Pereira carrying my Man Utd side).

This was very strong side though, with such depth I rotated my entire outfield every single game:

 

Most recently with my Roma save, I inadvertently copied the evolution of the tactic from this thread, which featured some Attack duties:

Although I arrived at these roles and duties due to the strengths of my own own players, it does appear almost a carbon copy of OP's tactic and he has been a huge influence on how I play the game.

The results here were truly outstanding, as we went two consecutive seasons unbeaten, retaining the Serie A, Champions League, Coppa Italia, FIFA Club World Cup, Supercoppa Italiana, and UEFA Super Cup titles having not lost in over 100 games in all competitions. Again, very few tactical tweaks, the most common one being Run at Defence to win some set pieces to break down those deep 7-man blocks you often see in Italy (less common in Portugal, I believe, and certainly less common in France which is why I'm more proud of this). Again though, a truly outstanding squad as I've actually *just* racked up a positive net transfer spend over the save, funded by a 1st season Champions League title playing more direct:

 

Do I believe these things are harder to achieve in FM19 (and presumably FM20)? Absolutely. Along with the removal of team shape, youth development is less consistent, you don't have tutoring to boost it, and teams have finally learned to rotate - it was quite easy to overachieve on FM18 purely through the fact that even in mid-September you'd be facing a Barcelona side with Messi starting at 60% or something absurd like that. But nobody's ever tried to hide the fact that you need really strong squads to play like this, so I figured by using the same squad views I could show that if you do assemble the right players and get a little bit of luck (underestimated in FM), tactics built on these principles can succeed.

[04texag]

50 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

Most recently with my Roma save, I inadvertently copied the evolution of the tactic from this thread, which featured some Attack duties:

Hey @zlatanera, are you doing a current thread on your save? I enjoyed reading your Lyon thread last year. I like the look of your Roma squad!

[zlatanera]

@04texag A New Roman Empire

Has an earlier 18 month save where I try a different tactical approach, then into this longer one. I think this is the first time my favourite save on an FM isn’t Real Sociedad or Lyon.

[Nes1995]

I think these very fluid systems require really good players at least in fm 20 but copying these ideas into the Barcelona team i got some very fluid goals so far, it required the team to learn the tactic to become good

a nice overload goal

 

 

[Kolarov's missing tooth]

Adding to the point made by @ElJefe4, I've had some success with removing the DLP. When I first tried implementing these tactics I had problems with 'stale' play and the seemingly common problem of over-reliance on passing to the DLP. Who would then inevitably pass the ball to one of the wingbacks.

I normally put the DLP on support at the base of a midfield three. Switching to a DM-S with Hold Position and Takes More Risks seems to have helped somewhat. Certainly seems less common for the aforementioned "-> DLP -> WB" pattern seems less common. I've also turned off play out defence and work ball into box.

Possession seems a bit lower (was averaging about 60%, now more mid-50s) and at the moment (although it's a small sample size) goalscoring seems a bit better. The shots:goals ratio has gotten worse (it was bad anyway - it seems to be a systemic issue with FM that conversion rates are low, not just for me but for AI managers/clubs too). Generally at this early stage it looks more promising than before. Will see how it goes for rest of the season.

[Deego619]

Anyone try out this community ME patch for FM20 yet? Not going to link it here in case the mods don't exactly approve, but it's easily found using a popular search engine.

Against my better judgement, I downloaded it and installed it in my game. WOW is all I have to say. It's like real football. In my Kaiserlautern 4-4-2, my supporting strikers were useless and never dropped deep or got involved in the game. The next game after installing this, my supporting striker is causing havoc and got 2 assists with actual through balls to the front man, it was like watching older FMs. 

For the purposes of this thread, I loaded up a random save with Bohemians in Ireland, using this:

 

 

Using some extra instructions on my below par mid table Irish players (with my two best players long term injured after 2 games....) we are playing good football. Not swash buckling free-scoring, but incredibly dominant in all games played. 

More importantly my players are actually listening to my tactical instructions. My striker is dropping deep, my wingers are making runs, midfielders passing it around, defenders covering long balls. I'm not sure how these people have done it, but this ME is absolutely mind blowing. If this can be developed, it could be the answer we're looking for with a ME that the community can spec to our tastes.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Deego619

[crusadertsar]

24 minutes ago, Deego619 said:

Anyone try out this community ME patch for FM20 yet? Not going to link it here in case the mods don't exactly approve, but it's easily found using a popular search engine.

Against my better judgement, I downloaded it and installed it in my game. WOW is all I have to say. It's like real football. In my Kaiserlautern 4-4-2, my supporting strikers were useless and never dropped deep or got involved in the game. The next game after installing this, my supporting striker is causing havoc and got 2 assists with actual through balls to the front man, it was like watching older FMs. 

For the purposes of this thread, I loaded up a random save with Bohemians in Ireland, using this:

 

 

Using some extra instructions on my below par mid table Irish players (with my two best players long term injured after 2 games....) we are playing good football. Not swash buckling free-scoring, but incredibly dominant in all games played. 

More importantly my players are actually listening to my tactical instructions. My striker is dropping deep, my wingers are making runs, midfielders passing it around, defenders covering long balls. I'm not sure how these people have done it, but this ME is absolutely mind blowing. If this can be developed, it could be the answer we're looking for with a ME that the community can spec to our tastes.

Wow. What blows me away is why these community fixes haven't been integrated into the official patches. It actually improves the game! Fixing many of the issues people have been complaining about on the ME bug forum for months before it was closed.

Edited October 5, 2020 by crusadertsar

[04texag]

I mean, I'm speechless. I could go on but I think this says enough, "wow"

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

Wow. What blows me away is why these community fixes haven't been integrated into the official patches. It actually improves the game! Fixing many of the issues people have been complaining about on the ME bug forum for months before it was closed.

It actually cannot do most of the things it claims. Since most of the metrics lie within the match AI, which the physics file cannot modify. Hate to burst the bubble but it doesn't do what it says on the tin

[Deego619]

2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

It actually cannot do most of the things it claims. Since most of the metrics lie within the match AI, which the physics file cannot modify. Hate to burst the bubble but it doesn't do what it says on the tin

Not sure why there's such a big effort on your part to discredit this in multiple threads. If you read this thread in particular it's full of great feedback about the current and previous ME/Tactics that hasn't received any recognition from Mods or SI until now funnily, so if people disenfranchised in this thread enjoy this alternative then great, if not no harm done, regardless of if actually does anything.

The last thing I want to do is get Ozil's amazing contributions locked so I'll leave it there. I just hope that we can at least entertain discussion on it.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Deego619

[themadsheep2001]

20 minutes ago, Deego619 said:

Not sure why there's such a big effort on your part to discredit this in multiple threads. If you read this thread in particular it's full of great feedback about the current and previous ME that hasn't received any recognition from Mods or SI until now funnily, so if people disenfranchised in this thread enjoy this alternative then great, if not no harm done, regardless of if actually does anything.

The last thing I want to do is get Ozil's amazing contributions locked so I'll leave it there. I just hope that we can at least entertain discussion on it.

We don't like misinformation and it's part of our role to deal with it. It literally cannot do what it says. It's impossible since it's only able to slightly adapt a few physical parameters in the physical JSON file. It has not got access to the match ai file therefore it cannot access anything to do with decision making such as through balls or the majority of what it claims

It's the equivalent of them saying 2+2=5, SI checking it and saying no, because 2+2 must always equal 4, and you then wanting a discussion on how 2+2 can sometimes equal 5. There's no discussion to be had. It quite literally cannot work that way. We're not trying to be harsh, but it just doesn't work that way

[ElJefe4]

Doing well with a variation of this at Lyon. Finished 2nd in season 1 on 92 points. Currently 9 points clear at the top in season 2 with 6 matches to go. (P32, W26, D5, L1, GF78, GA7). 5 of the 7 conceded came in the first 9 matches. I've tweaked along the way so we've actually only conceded 2 in the last 23 league games.

Got a couple of injuries to key players but should have enough to get over the line in the league, and we've also got a Champions League semi-final against Man Utd to look forward to. Especially pleased with the effort since January as I had to sell Depay half way through the season. I expected a drop off but it hasn't happened.

I'd still like a bit more creativity from my 2 advanced CMs, and a bit more positional fluidity/interchanging, but the basis of a very successful tactic is there, so hopefully I can add those elements soon.

 

[ElJefe4]

 

A successful 2nd season using the above tactic at Lyon. Managed to topple PSG domestically and reach a Champions League Semi Final, which we unfortunately lost to Man Utd in a very "FM game vs higher reputation team" (i.e. completely unforced errors and ridiculous solo goals from the opposition).

In terms of the tactic itself:

I've switched from Inverted Wingers to Inside Forwards. This does mean that they go from 'Positive' to 'Very Attacking' which I was hesitant about, but the defensive structure hasn't been compromised and they have been more effective going forwards (position themselves higher and narrower).

Initially started with a '1-2' in midfield, using a DLP behind a BBM and MEZ. I found that having a playmaker meant that other players shirked creative responsibility too much and opted for the safe pass back to my deepest midfielder. This allowed the opposition to regroup and lead to lots of repetitive patterns of play. I wanted a player to sit at the base of the midfield 3 and support my attacks, but not necessarily act as a magnet for the ball. I decided that moving him up to the MC strata and using CM (D) was the best option. I also decided to simplify the other 2 roles as I was overdoing it a bit, so I went with CM (S) and then used PIs to replicate the movements that I wanted.

I've stuck with using Dembele as F9. It's fair to say that this really isn't his game, he's a much more traditional centre forward, however as his goal scoring record has still been so good as F9, I didn't want to risk upsetting the balance of the team too much by using him in a more advanced role.

Pros:
- Few goals conceded. As mentioned, 5 of those goals conceded in Ligue 1 came in the first 9 matches. So in the remaining 29 we conceded just 3. As is often the case with high pressing tactics, the risk/reward element of it means that sometimes when you do give up a chance, it'll be a very good one, but on the whole the numbers suggest its working very well.
- Possession. The ball retention was good, we dominated possession and territory in the vast majority of matches. Occasionally we would face decent technical teams who were very defensive and would keep the ball at the back (United were guilty of this).
- Goals for forward players. Dembele has scored 39 in 48 and now 38 in 41. Inside forwards (Reine-Adelaide, Traore and Terrier) all got double figures. Gouiri also chipped in with 9 useful goals.

Cons/Areas to Improve:
- Crosses. The tactic still feels slightly over-reliant on crosses, whether from the inside forwards or the wing backs. 
- Positional fluidity. I'd still like to see more intelligent movement from my front 3 and MCL/MCR. Against defensive teams it can feel slightly static which often leads to the aforementioned reliance on crosses from wing backs.
- Midfielders breaking lines. Following on from the above, both my MCL and MCR have 'Get Further Forward' as a PI, however I very rarely see them make those well timed runs into the box that I've seen @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! demonstrate from his midfield players.
- Getting in behind the defence. Again, maybe a continuation of the above points. I'd like to see more examples of balls being played in behind the back line, for wide players to square/cut the ball back to central players, rather than lower percentage crosses being played into a crowded box in the hope that a forward can steal the march on a defender.

Player Instructions include: 
- Dribble More for the 2 CBs to encourage them to step out into midfield. This has occasionally helped to draw opposition midfielders out. However, they have been caught dwelling on the ball a few times as last man, and encouraging them to spend longer with the ball at their feet may have exacerbated this.
- Get Further Forward and Move Into Channels for MCL/MCR. I've sometimes switched between Move Into Channels and Roam From Position, unsure which suits my team best at the minute. I feel as though using both would be overkill. Aouar also has dribble more in order to give him a little more creative freedom.
- Get Further Forward for AML/AMR. This was actually unintentionally left on from when I made the switch from Inverted Wingers to Inside Forwards.

If anyone has any ideas on how they'd go about tackling the areas I've marked out as possible areas for improvement, I'd really appreciate the suggestions. I got caught up in winning the title last season and didn't want to tweak too much in case it led to a drop off in results, but next season I'd like to focus on perfecting the tactic, as I know I have this version to fall back on.

 

 

[zlatanera]

Always nice to see someone else succeed with Lyon! (Even if it does then make me want to abandon my current venture and start over with them again)

4 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

I've stuck with using Dembele as F9. It's fair to say that this really isn't his game, he's a much more traditional centre forward, however as his goal scoring record has still been so good as F9, I didn't want to risk upsetting the balance of the team too much by using him in a more advanced role.

Obviously he's not João Felix's standard (especially not Ö-zil's FM18 João Felix) but unless he significantly changed between FM19.3 and FM20 then Dembélé is reasonably two-footed, a good dribbler and finisher and although not the most creative its not like he has only 8 Vision or anything poor like that. His trait of Likes To Try To Beat Offside Trap always seemed inappropriate to me yet @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! has it on his aforementioned False Nine so perhaps its good at encouraging varied off the ball movement? (Asking OP as much as trying to reassure you here).

4 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

Cons/Areas to Improve:
- Crosses. The tactic still feels slightly over-reliant on crosses, whether from the inside forwards or the wing backs. 
- Getting in behind the defence. Again, maybe a continuation of the above points. I'd like to see more examples of balls being played in behind the back line, for wide players to square/cut the ball back to central players, rather than lower percentage crosses being played into a crowded box in the hope that a forward can steal the march on a defender.

I'd be interested to see exactly how many of your assists the game credits as crosses vs. through balls, short passes etc. I would say though that the above two points are probably where you're running up against the limitations of FM only being a simulation of football - even on the much-heralded FM17/FM18 MEs (see: arguments earlier in this thread) I've not seen too much of that behaviour. Especially the latter.

4 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

Cons/Areas to Improve:
- Midfielders breaking lines. Following on from the above, both my MCL and MCR have 'Get Further Forward' as a PI, however I very rarely see them make those well timed runs into the box that I've seen @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! demonstrate from his midfield players.

Traits / Preferred Moves might be what you need to work on here. Gets Into Opposition Area / Arrives Late / perhaps even Get Forward will all help encourage that off the ball movement. 

[ElJefe4]

20 hours ago, zlatanera said:

Always nice to see someone else succeed with Lyon! (Even if it does then make me want to abandon my current venture and start over with them again)

Obviously he's not João Felix's standard (especially not Ö-zil's FM18 João Felix) but unless he significantly changed between FM19.3 and FM20 then Dembélé is reasonably two-footed, a good dribbler and finisher and although not the most creative its not like he has only 8 Vision or anything poor like that. His trait of Likes To Try To Beat Offside Trap always seemed inappropriate to me yet @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! has it on his aforementioned False Nine so perhaps its good at encouraging varied off the ball movement? (Asking OP as much as trying to reassure you here).

I'd be interested to see exactly how many of your assists the game credits as crosses vs. through balls, short passes etc. I would say though that the above two points are probably where you're running up against the limitations of FM only being a simulation of football - even on the much-heralded FM17/FM18 MEs (see: arguments earlier in this thread) I've not seen too much of that behaviour. Especially the latter.

Traits / Preferred Moves might be what you need to work on here. Gets Into Opposition Area / Arrives Late / perhaps even Get Forward will all help encourage that off the ball movement. 

He's definitely a well rounded forward. I expect to lose him at some point in the next 12 months, so I'm hoping Gouiri can make the step up effectively.

Here's the stats for types of assists in my last 50 league matches:

The point around traits is very useful, thanks for that. I'll get to work on that this pre-season with the likes of Houssem Aouar and Bruno Guimaraes. Only problem is, I sometimes use players in different roles depending on injuries, fatigue etc. For example, Bruno (and his understudy Titouan Thomas) will usually play MCR but will occasionally play as the deepest midfielder. If they were playing as the deepest midfielder I'd be using them as CM (D) with 'Hold Position' hard-coded into the PIs, I'm not sure which tends to have a greater influence on player behaviour, PIs or PPMs? Definitely worth exploring though. 

[zlatanera]

@ElJefe4 well, if he's anything like Gouiri on my FM19 save you'll be fine:

Spoiler

Set pieces are 33% of your goals, which seems high compared to say 16% on my aforementioned FM19 save. But that's more to do with having poor takers on that save, usually I'm around 30% as set pieces are slightly overpowered on FM compared to most of our perceptions of real life football. On that same save I have 33% Cross assists and 22% Through Balls, whereas you have 27% from Crosses and 18% Through Balls. I don't believe full on Pep-ball is possible in FM, but certainly there's no harm in trying to encourage more passing and fewer crosses, but I've kinda settled for this sort of a ratio my self. Plus not all crosses are equal, a low cross from close in that just needs a touch on it is probably more due to dominance than a more hopeful punt from deep, yet both would be counted as crosses I believe.

I definitely also see the value in keeping players without traits (see: Gouiri above), although I failed drastically with Thomas on FM19, he picked up so many I just leant into it, he now has 7 traits encouraging him to come deep, then dribble and do it through the centre and/or play one-twos and/or killer balls and/or dictate the tempo of the game and/or just leg it into the opposition area off the ball. But certainly for your starters like Aouar who is presumably always going to be a front-foot player, I would argue its worth doing.

[Continum]

I'm trying to implement a Total Football style with my Aberdeen side. Might not be the best suited side, but we are doing quite well.
What I notice is that we got a lot of narrow wins. Lately many of my games have ended 1-0. It's still a win but I would like to see more goals.
We dominate possession but we seem to get a lot of shots either blocked, saved or off the target. Most of the shots are inside the box or just outside.
So the positions when they shoot seem good. Just can't seem to find the way through.

First here is the squad view filtered with the desired attributes:



Here is the formation:

Which translates into these individual mentalities:
EDIT: The label for the right complete wing back is wrong - that is also 'Attacking'.



 

Every feedback is appreciated. It's really fun reading this threads and with so many contributing and sharing opinions.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Continum

[Impacto]

Very interesting! Have you tried the Mezzala on the left side and the Box to Box on the right? I think currently the Mez and IF are attacking the same spaces and if you switch the Mez to the other side it might be slightly better. I generally like the Winger - IF combo, the winger stretches the defence really well, and that really helps the team in attack. In addition, it allows you do keep the WB behind the winger more defensive or even go inverted when needed. The reason I love TF is because it's so flexible.

Btw, what are those numbers to the player's names? Just curious.

[JarheadFM]

Wingers with the trait cuts inside work best if found, they have a lower mentality that IF. IW and Mez occupy the same space so not good. I like IWB W s then mez s with an AP s or RPM.

 

Using a 4141 (433 or 4123) the Treq drops back to form a diamond with the DM and cms. He will also Roam, pretty much how Cruyff played.

 

 

[Continum]

11 hours ago, Impacto said:

Have you tried the Mezzala on the left side and the Box to Box on the right? I think currently the Mez and IF are attacking the same spaces and if you switch the Mez to the other side it might be slightly better.

I'll try that out, but from what I'm seeing on the pitch and the average positions it doesn't seem to be a problem. I also have "Get further forward" PI selected on the IF, so that might help as well.

 

11 hours ago, Impacto said:

Btw, what are those numbers to the player's names? Just curious.

It's a score I calculate based on the desired attributes (those in the squad view).

[04texag]

6 hours ago, Continum said:

It's a score I calculate based on the desired attributes (those in the squad view).

Curious what your's are? I have a squad view setup to do something similar, where I have my 5 core DNA attributes, then a separator, then my important total football attributes, then key mentals. It serves me well but I never add up a mean or total. Are you adding up your core 5, and that's your score out of 100?

[Continum]

24 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Curious what your's are? I have a squad view setup to do something similar, where I have my 5 core DNA attributes, then a separator, then my important total football attributes, then key mentals. It serves me well but I never add up a mean or total. Are you adding up your core 5, and that's your score out of 100?

You can see them further up (5 posts up) in the screenshot.
I add them all up and divide them by the number of attributes added. In my case it's 14 attributes. Then I multiply by 5.
The number doesn't mean anything other than a personal score.

[gpassosbh]

Anyone check if this is now doable in FM21?

[couragewolf101]

On 11/11/2020 at 20:20, gpassosbh said:

Anyone check if this is now doable in FM21?

Testing it rn with Athletic Bilbao. So far looking good, but need to improve dead ball situations.

[gpassosbh]

8 hours ago, couragewolf101 said:

Testing it rn with Athletic Bilbao. So far looking good, but need to improve dead ball situations.

Did you checked the mentality on each position? Can you show a picture of your tactic?

[couragewolf101]

2 minutes ago, gpassosbh said:

Did you checked the mentality on each position? Can you show a picture of your tactic?

Currently as is, but at the time of that match, the IWs now were IF

So mentality wise atm

is 

B
P-P
P-P
P
P-P-P-P

[gpassosbh]

4 minutes ago, couragewolf101 said:

Currently as is, but at the time of that match, the IWs now were IF

So mentality wise atm

is 

B
P-P
P-P
P
P-P-P-P

Nice. I´ll try something like this later today. Get everyone with attacking mentality still impossible, right?

[yonko]

2 hours ago, couragewolf101 said:

Currently as is, but at the time of that match, the IWs now were IF

So mentality wise atm

is 

B
P-P
P-P
P
P-P-P-P

I doubt the Defend duty roles are Positive Mentality. They start as Cautious and can only jump up to Balanced with Focus Through Middle. 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

14 minutes ago, yonko said:

I doubt the Defend duty roles are Positive Mentality. They start as Cautious and can only jump up to Balanced with Focus Through Middle. 

They will be on cautious as Focus doesn't affect mentality in 21.