Could I get some assistance w/ Gegenpressing?

[TexasRanger]

Hey there!

Long-time player, first time forum poster. I've managed to get Bristol City to the Premier League and am now struggling to stay afloat two seasons running. The first season we dominated and ended up 7th place, the next season we dropped to 15th, barely making the cut, and now the start of this season does not look particularly promising and I am in need of some help.

I'll try and be concise: my tactic works, partially. Below you'll see my take on the "Gegenpress" tactic. I'm struggling to get goals in bunches and when I do get goals, there is usually a goal in the 90th minute on the other end of things to deny my club a win. I'm wondering how I can combat this and where the breakdown is in this tactic.

Any improvements or suggestions would be appreciated.

Important to note: This tactic was altered from my original, where wingbacks would be used on both sides.

 

[Experienced Defender]

13 minutes ago, TexasRanger said:

I've managed to get Bristol City to the Premier League and am now struggling to stay afloat two seasons running

Are you sure that a gegenpress is a good idea for a team that has only just been promoted to a highest-level league and probably the strongest one in the world, to begin with?

i mean, it's no surprise for a complete underdog to struggle trying to play such a gung-ho style. So I think you should first reconsider your tactical approach before anything else. 

[TexasRanger]

5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Are you sure that a gegenpress is a good idea for a team that has only just been promoted to a highest-level league and probably the strongest one in the world, to begin with?

i mean, it's no surprise for a complete underdog to struggle trying to play such a gung-ho style. So I think you should first reconsider your tactical approach before anything else. 

That is a GREAT question! 

To be honest I do not know. I started at Rochdale with the same tactic seen above (using wingbacks) and it worked wonders. I got promoted, and it did well, but I ended up moving onto Bristol City. I figured that I could bring that same tactic over, bring the players in that may fit it, and gut the rest of them.... and the first season it worked, the second season it was less effective, and the third season.... well it's just started but we're 4 points in 3 games which ain't too shabby a start. I see teams in the prem use this type of formation so I figured it would be a norm....

If you've got recommendations for me I'm all ears. I've attempted to play a defensive tactic (below... with players fitting the roles, this is just a screenshot of it) but I get absolutely battered. 

 

 

[giggety]

I could be mistaken, but playing "wide" in possession will trigger overlaps anyways, so I would remove the overlap TI. 

You have two IFs in the winger strata giving your AM (Slattery) very little room to operate in.

Positive mentality should give a higher tempo, so I would go back to slightly higher tempo to prevent unnecessary loss of possession. 

I would be very tempted to try McSauce as a BWM(S) and Bellingham with a defensive duty. 

I don't like the front 4 to be fair, I would go with a pressing forward on attack and an attacking role for Slattery (AM should work fine) and then both wide players on support, where I would give one of them a straight winger role to try to give the AM some space. 

Just some food for thought.

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, TexasRanger said:

I see teams in the prem use this type of formation so I figured it would be a norm

Formation and tactic are not the same thing. You can create a number of different tactics within any formation. 

 

3 minutes ago, TexasRanger said:

 

 

3 minutes ago, TexasRanger said:

I've attempted to play a defensive tactic (below... with players fitting the roles, this is just a screenshot of it) but I get absolutely battered

This tactic might be defensive in terms of team mentality and out-of-possession instructions. But the problem is that it's terribly unbalanced in terms of roles and duties and full of overkill in terms of instructions.

On top of that, you went from one extreme (gegen-press) to the other (ultra-defensive and ultra-passive). Not to mention that you also changed the formation into a totally different one. 

10 minutes ago, TexasRanger said:

If you've got recommendations for me I'm all ears

It's hard to offer specific recommendations (advice) without knowing your players. But general advice for starters - try to keep it as simple as possible when it comes to instructions and make sure the setup of roles and duties offers optimal balance between attacking penetration and defensive stability. Avoid any kind of extremes. 

Try to create a tactic following these principles and post it here for further review 

[TexasRanger]

33 minutes ago, giggety said:

I could be mistaken, but playing "wide" in possession will trigger overlaps anyways, so I would remove the overlap TI. 

You have two IFs in the winger strata giving your AM (Slattery) very little room to operate in.

Positive mentality should give a higher tempo, so I would go back to slightly higher tempo to prevent unnecessary loss of possession. 

I would be very tempted to try McSauce as a BWM(S) and Bellingham with a defensive duty. 

I don't like the front 4 to be fair, I would go with a pressing forward on attack and an attacking role for Slattery (AM should work fine) and then both wide players on support, where I would give one of them a straight winger role to try to give the AM some space. 

Just some food for thought.

That is really interesting... I'll remove the overlap TI... never thought of it that way. I had a variation of this where I tried McTominay as a BWM(D) but I'll see what happpens with a BWM(S)... Bellingham as a DLP(D).... I'm a little confused about what exactly he would do in the defensive duty as a playmaker. I always assumed playmakers were support or attack to get the most out of them?

The front four feedback makes total sense. I usually do run a winger along the right side... but would this interfere with my fullback in attack?

[XuluBak]

3 hours ago, TexasRanger said:

It's risky, but I don't think there's any reason you can't gegenpress with a newly promoted team, and there certainly isn't any reason you shouldn't be able to in your third season up. That said, gegenpressing is only one element of the larger picture. You're trying to play a 4231 (fairly offensive, vulnerable to counter), with both wings cutting inside, neither CM defensive, asking too much of at least one of your CBs, and (without knowing all your players) I think a bit too risky in possession (wide, higher tempo, etc). Then on top of all that, you're telling your team to stay on their feet. Your players, formation, tactics, TIs, PIs, etc. all need to mesh, where it seems like you're kinda trying to do too much and sending missed messages. 

I'm hesitant to give too much specific advice without knowing all your players, but...

1) I'd strongly consider 433 (4141 DM Wide) instead of 4231.  If you're deadset on 4231, then maybe go with a winger on one side with a more defensive FB behind them, and a defensive CM (or possibly CAR-S) on the other. 

2) Assuming that's Eric Dier, Tosin Adarabioyo, and Joe Gomez: I'd either drop Dier to the bench, or move him forward into an HB role (if you go 433), and push Gomez inside. I think you're asking way too much of him (Dier) athletically and technically. Not sure how he's developed for you, but Adarabioyo was pretty good for me as a BPD in a high gegenpressing system. Maybe this is unnecessary, but if I'm high pressing, building out of the back, etc., then I want at least one of my CBs set to BPD. 

3) Are you satisfied with your strikers production? CF-A is awfully demanding, and wondering if your striker is talented enough to pull it off, or if he wouldn't be better off in a more focused role. 

4) You're struggling to consistently score goals, but are you creating quality chances? It seems like you're heavy in the scoring options, light on the creative outlets. 

[TexasRanger]

15 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

It's risky, but I don't think there's any reason you can't gegenpress with a newly promoted team, and there certainly isn't any reason you shouldn't be able to in your third season up. That said, gegenpressing is only one element of the larger picture. You're trying to play a 4231 (fairly offensive, vulnerable to counter), with both wings cutting inside, neither CM defensive, asking too much of at least one of your CBs, and (without knowing all your players) I think a bit too risky in possession (wide, higher tempo, etc). Then on top of all that, you're telling your team to stay on their feet. Your players, formation, tactics, TIs, PIs, etc. all need to mesh, where it seems like you're kinda trying to do too much and sending missed messages. 

I'm hesitant to give too much specific advice without knowing all your players, but...

1) I'd strongly consider 433 (4141 DM Wide) instead of 4231.  If you're deadset on 4231, then maybe go with a winger on one side with a more defensive FB behind them, and a defensive CM (or possibly CAR-S) on the other. 

2) Assuming that's Eric Dier, Tosin Adarabioyo, and Joe Gomez: I'd either drop Dier to the bench, or move him forward into an HB role (if you go 433), and push Gomez inside. I think you're asking way too much of him (Dier) athletically and technically. Not sure how he's developed for you, but Adarabioyo was pretty good for me as a BPD in a high gegenpressing system. Maybe this is unnecessary, but if I'm high pressing, building out of the back, etc., then I want at least one of my CBs set to BPD. 

3) Are you satisfied with your strikers production? CF-A is awfully demanding, and wondering if your striker is talented enough to pull it off, or if he wouldn't be better off in a more focused role. 

4) You're struggling to consistently score goals, but are you creating quality chances? It seems like you're heavy in the scoring options, light on the creative outlets. 

Wow these are fantastic points you've brought up. I'll try and answer in kind. As far as a 4-3-3 that is something I've tinkered with but haven't seem to have mastered, but I'm certainly not dead set on a 4231.

1) I'll explore some 4-3-3 as a secondary until I nail it down, good point! So I should stick a FB(A) (if I have one) behind an IF(S) and use a FB(D) behind the winger?

2) Close! Eric Dier, Tosin Adarabioyo, and Victor Gomez (A temp RB until I can find someone worthwhile... but he's got pace.). On the bench I've got Eric Garcia, while Nathan Wood and a few other up and comers are on loan. I'll be sure to switch a CD to a BPD as I do like to play from the back, though I see some tactics with two BPD's - is this advised?

3) Not at all... my striker combination does not seem to score consistently. I've been advised to put a Pressing Forward up top which makes some sort of sense... though many of my strikers are more familiar with advanced forward.

4) I would say that we are certainly a team of quantity and outshoot our opponents by atleast 25%-50% in total and on target most matches (besides against the big 6). Would changing the attacking midfielder to an advanced playmaker help with that?

[XuluBak]

8 minutes ago, TexasRanger said:

1) I'll explore some 4-3-3 as a secondary until I nail it down, good point! So I should stick a FB(A) (if I have one) behind an IF(S) and use a FB(D) behind the winger?

Not necessarily. It's all relative and dependent on your players. I'm not a fan of two wingers cutting inside, and especially not in a 4231 because you're crowding your AMC and not fully utilizing the width of the pitch (unless both your FBs are extremely aggressive). My advice re: FBs/WBs is generally to be as aggressive as your talent allows without being redundant (i.e., not much need for a W-A and WB-A on the same side).  I've largely stopped using IFs in favor of IWs in FM20. So a typical setup for me (in 433/4231) might be IW-S/WB-A on one side, W-A with the FB behind that winger varying greatly dependent on talent, but a FB/WB/CWB-A doesn't make sense. It's redundant/overkill. Pretty much anything else can make sense, be as aggressive as your talent allows, but keep in mind what's going on inside. In other words, your second FB/WB can be more aggressive in a 433 than it would otherwise in a 4231, but even with a 4231, you can protect your FB/WBs aggressiveness with your CMs role/duty. That's all to say, I don't like to leave two CBs completely isolated. How much support they get depends on talent, formation, and attacking approach. 

8 minutes ago, TexasRanger said:

2) Close! Eric Dier, Tosin Adarabioyo, and Victor Gomez (A temp RB until I can find someone worthwhile... but he's got pace.). On the bench I've got Eric Garcia, while Nathan Wood and a few other up and comers are on loan. I'll be sure to switch a CD to a BPD as I do like to play from the back, though I see some tactics with two BPD's - is this advised?

Ahh, ok. Then stick with what you've got, but if you're getting caught out, then you might drop your lines of engagement/defense a notch. I also find 'extremely urgent' pressing can be overkill, so might drop that a notch, then kick it up to the max if you're chasing, or need to change things up.  All my CBs are usually BPDs, but I recruit to that role. I don't force players without the skillset into it. 

8 minutes ago, TexasRanger said:

3) Not at all... my striker combination does not seem to score consistently. I've been advised to put a Pressing Forward up top which makes some sort of sense... though many of my strikers are more familiar with advanced forward.

I've found myself underwhelmed with PF, but admittedly haven't used one in a while. I tend to gravitate towards AF-A, DLF, or F9 in single striker sets. Also, within reason don't worry too much about a player's familiarity, focus on their skillset and what makes sense tactically. 

8 minutes ago, TexasRanger said:

4) I would say that we are certainly a team of quantity and outshoot our opponents by atleast 25%-50% in total and on target most matches (besides against the big 6). Would changing the attacking midfielder to an advanced playmaker help with that?

I'd recommend addressing your striker and one of your wide players first. See if that helps. 

[Deego619]

On 01/06/2020 at 18:52, TexasRanger said:

Hey there!

Long-time player, first time forum poster. I've managed to get Bristol City to the Premier League and am now struggling to stay afloat two seasons running. The first season we dominated and ended up 7th place, the next season we dropped to 15th, barely making the cut, and now the start of this season does not look particularly promising and I am in need of some help.

I'll try and be concise: my tactic works, partially. Below you'll see my take on the "Gegenpress" tactic. I'm struggling to get goals in bunches and when I do get goals, there is usually a goal in the 90th minute on the other end of things to deny my club a win. I'm wondering how I can combat this and where the breakdown is in this tactic.

Any improvements or suggestions would be appreciated.

Important to note: This tactic was altered from my original, where wingbacks would be used on both sides.

 

Why do you have so many TIs? Can you explain why you selected all and the desired effects on your team?

To read it out in plain English, you are a Positive mentality. So by default your team will look to get involved in the game, higher mentalities, higher tempo, higher D-Line, width and pressing. This is what would happen if you had 0 TIs selected and just a positive mentality.

You're then asking the team to play it short, with a lot of through balls but also play out from the back and work the ball around until you get it in the box. Apart from through balls this looks like a solid possession orientated setup.

But then you ask your full backs and wingers to be more attacking than their central counterparts, play at an even faster tempo than the default positive mentality, wider than the default. Already seems a bit counter intuitive, your team is setup to play short possession football but are also instructed to play at a high tempo, extremely wide and your flanks are gungho attacking.

Then we are also instructed to counter press and play on the counter. Why? Does your mid table side need to be relentlessly pressing when the ball is lost? Let's assume your AM Slattery loses the ball to a marking DM, suddenly Bellingham and McTominay will be let loose to try and win the ball back. A team of your quality or better will have players in midfield with good composure and technique, so playing around them shouldn't be hard. Then what? Your entire defence is exposed. What if Gomez was up the field attacking at this point? Could easily end up being outnumbered on the break.

Finally at out of possession. Higher D-Line than the positive default, higher LOE and even MORE pressing. Is it starting to make sense? There's a lot of extreme instructions across your team that's not required. You're playing an offside trap so I assume your back 4 have good anticipation, positioning, teamwork and pace?

TL;DR pick a style and stick with it. Possession with slow build, or high tempo attacking football? At the moment it seems like you want to do both at the same time, forgetting that Positive mentality by default gives you a set of attacking instructions already.

Possession? Shorter passing, some form of pressing (extremely urgent or counter press, not both), default or lower tempo, default width, work ball into box. Nothing else.

Attacking direct? Pass into space, some form of pressing (extremely urgent or counter press, not both), wide. Nothing else.

One thing I'll compliment is your roles/duties, they seem well balanced and I can see in my head how it can play out on the pitch.

Edited June 5, 2020 by JDeeguain