[FM20] Irchester Utd. Tier 10. England. Home. Youth Only.

[Jimbokav1971]

Poached. Sep 2042. 

[turnip]

I doubt there's any issue with the database - it's just how the game works in my experience.

You haven't mentioned setting any other leagues up, so I'm assuming you've got the English leagues loaded and none others.

The game tries to keep a rough balance of how many players there are of each nationality spread across the game at any given time - accounting for what leagues are loaded and how many players of each nationality are loaded. (Basically, if you don't activate/deactivate leagues while a save is running, then if you've got 100 Kyrgyz players at the start of the save, there should be roughly 100 at any other time (with variance, of course). And, of course, it's typically the better players of those nationalities that are 'kept' when you start a save, so when new players of that nationality are generated, it's more likely to be a better player than a crap one.

But newgens are heavily concentrated in active leagues. If you've only got the English leagues loaded, there's a higher chance that a Kyrgyz player will be generated at an English team than if you had England, Germany, Italy, Spain and France loaded. Small clubs in small nations don't get many newgens if that nation/league is inactive. So you get a Kyrgyz player in your intake and because he's a 'replacement' (not actually a replacement) for a 'good' player (there are no good Kyrgyz players, so I chose a poor example), you get a good player. 

As to why this has affected your save with different nationalities coming through, well, this is how Youth Recruitment works. Every club is competing with every other club for newgens from that country. At the start of the game, this means that the English newgens with the highest PA are concentrated with the clubs with the best youth setups. So if all the good English players are going to the good English clubs, who comes through at small team with poorer youth setups? Well, it's the crap English players and - potentially - some of the non-English newgens being generated by the game, who have a higher chance of being good than the English newgens. This is slightly exacerbated by the fact that AI clubs get smaller youth intakes than a club managed by a human.

 

So this, in my opinion is both why you've had good players of different nationalities coming through your youth intake and also why you're getting slightly worse players coming through now that your youth setup is 'better'.

Edited August 9, 2020 by turnip

[Jimbokav1971]

Good post @turnipbut.....

First of all I only have England loaded.

While you are completely right about the foreign players being replaced, it still doesn't answer all the questions. 

1. If we say, just for arguments sake that the foreign players have to go somewhere, and England is active and their own Nation isn't, (so they will be generated at an English club), these instances still seem to high for our facilities, especially when you consider that it's Junior Coaching that I had maxed out rather than Youth Recruitment. I get that they have to go somewhere and I get that it's probably going to be England. I don't get that it's this club. 

2. Even if we say that everything is fine and that actually the players are going to be generated in England and are going to be generated at this club, as our facilities improve, why do the instances of these players being generated with us decrease as our own facilities increase? That part doesn't make sense to me at all even if I completely buy in to point 1. 

[turnip]

1. I assume that the various aspects related to youth setup are weighted when the game divvies up which newgens go where. Because you got Junior Coaching up really early on in the save, maybe that gave your club a boost in the algorithm. Also, as I said, you get more newgens each season than Football Club FC five miles down the road in the same division as you does. There's also a chance that if you're not studying each minor country regularly, you're missing instances where these players are coming through at other clubs (although you may be doing this already). 

2. As your facilities improve, you move up the priority list for English newgens and down the priority list for non-English? I admit I'm a little hazy on this point myself

[Jimbokav1971]

16 minutes ago, turnip said:

1. I assume that the various aspects related to youth setup are weighted when the game divvies up which newgens go where. Because you got Junior Coaching up really early on in the save, maybe that gave your club a boost in the algorithm. Also, as I said, you get more newgens each season than Football Club FC five miles down the road in the same division as you does. There's also a chance that if you're not studying each minor country regularly, you're missing instances where these players are coming through at other clubs (although you may be doing this already). 

2. As your facilities improve, you move up the priority list for English newgens and down the priority list for non-English? I admit I'm a little hazy on this point myself

Almost completely agree with you on point 1. I'm really just playing Devils advocate. The only thing I don't agree on is Footbal club FC 5 miles down the road in the same Div getting fewer Newgens. In my opinion, (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), they get the same number of newgens. They just choose not to sign as many as I do. 

Yeah, hazy is a decent description. I get that we might move up the pecking order, but I don't get how there is a different pecking order for English players being generated in England and non-English players being generated in England. That's the bit that's the unknown. 

What I find really interesting about this whole thing is that because I got to 2.1.20.12, and was producing such good intakes, (by the way I am absolutely NOT complaining about recent intakes because I still think they have been better than decent), I sort of relaxed about the facilities and forgot that we were on L20 Junior Coaching and assumed incorrectly that it was L20 Youth Recruitment. Imagine I was at L20 Youth Recruitment???? 

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. It's a really interesting discussion. Anyone else reading, please feel free to give us your thoughts/opinions. At this stage there is no right or wrong. There is just "I think", and everyone's opinion is as valid as the next one. Would be great to hear some thoughts. Lots of you must have looked at this and thought "how the hell is he doing this?" @Makoto Nakamurahave you got any ideas what is going on? You have probably done more Youth Only intakes than the rest of us combined. 

[Pompeyboyz]

OK so first 2 runs complete.

This is using Vanilla DB with only English Leagues to Level 6 and a default large DB.  I selected 4 teams from various leagues for comparison.  Portsmouth, Havant and Waterlooville, Leeds Utd and Liverpool

Next up is the same setup but I changed the facilities to match @Jimbokav1971

In the second image I have highlighted if there was an increase or decrease in a facilities number.  All had Junior Coaching increased while Portsmouth and Havant had Youth Recruitment increases and all had the other decrease except Havants Training Facilities which remained the same.

What I find interesting about the second set is that although all 4 teams showed an increase in average PA and CA with Portsmouth and Havant getting the largest increases, there was a level of consistency in the higher the league, the higher the average PA and CA were.  My initial thought on this is based on the quality of the staff the teams have and what impact they will have on the incoming youth intake.

I am also quite perplexed at Liverpool having such a small intake both times. This one I am wondering if it is due to the size of thier U18 squad already being quite large.

Another interesting observation was that with the Vanilla youth intakes, Portsmouth had quite a variety of nationalities(second included) with very few linked to English as first or second.  Leeds also had a fair mix as did Liverpool but most were linked to English.  The second run through with @Jimbokav1971's facilites was much less nationalities and they were spread much more evenly, with most linked to English as first or second. 

[Jimbokav1971]

Loads of info there @PompeyboyzJust trying to digest it all but the gist of it is that if you have those facilities, (2.1.20.12), then you are going to get good players. [End of]

The 2nd thing that strikes me is how gutted are Leeds going to be when they get that 121 CA keeper through and he hardly gets any better! 

Look at that H&W 2nd intake though. 

That's the closest here to where we are/have been. 5 players with a PA of 127+, (3 of whom aren't English by the way). That's huge isn't it? 

[Jimbokav1971]

12 minutes ago, Pompeyboyz said:

What I find interesting about the second set is that although all 4 teams showed an increase in average PA and CA with Portsmouth and Havant getting the largest increases, there was a level of consistency in the higher the league, the higher the average PA and CA were.  My initial thought on this is based on the quality of the staff the teams have and what impact they will have on the incoming youth intake.

Very good point. 

I think it stands to reason that this is the case. (Small incremental increases for many different factors.)

Something else that I have considered and mentioned previously though is that historic facility levels might play a part. 

Player aged 10 is at academy with L10 facilities. 
Player aged 11 is at academy with L11 facilities. 
Player aged 12 is at academy with L12 facilities. 
Player aged 13 is at academy with L13 facilities. 
Player aged 14 is at academy with L14 facilities. 
Player aged 15 is at academy with L15 facilities. 
Player aged 16 is promoted from Academy with L16 facilities. 

So for the whole period the player was there, the facilities were at a different level. 

 

[Jimbokav1971]

16 minutes ago, Pompeyboyz said:

I am also quite perplexed at Liverpool having such a small intake both times. This one I am wondering if it is due to the size of thier U18 squad already being quite large.

You are not seeing their intake. 

You are seeing those players from their intake that they choose to offer youth contracts to. 

Because the standard is much higher at Liverpool, fewer players make the grade. 

[Pompeyboyz]

What I will go back and look at is the birthplace of those H&W players for both intakes as Havant is a suburb of Portsmouth.  Might as well look at Portmouth too to see where they claim from

[Jimbokav1971]

18 minutes ago, Pompeyboyz said:

Another interesting observation was that with the Vanilla youth intakes, Portsmouth had quite a variety of nationalities(second included) with very few linked to English as first or second.  Leeds also had a fair mix as did Liverpool but most were linked to English.  The second run through with @Jimbokav1971's facilites was much less nationalities and they were spread much more evenly, with most linked to English as first or second. 

That's a whole different really interesting point, but we would need a bigger sample size to make draw any conclusions I think. 

[Jimbokav1971]

1 minute ago, Pompeyboyz said:

What I will go back and look at is the birthplace of those H&W players for both intakes as Havant is a suburb of Portsmouth.  Might as well look at Portmouth too to see where they claim from

Excellent idea. 

[Pompeyboyz]

1 minute ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

You are not seeing their intake. 

You are seeing those players from their intake that they choose to offer youth contracts to. 

Because the standard is much higher at Liverpool, fewer players make the grade. 

I used an editor external to the game to get the data needed so I picked out all players in the intakes.  Liverpools were small. 

[Makoto Nakamura]

17 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

Almost completely agree with you on point 1. I'm really just playing Devils advocate. The only thing I don't agree on is Footbal club FC 5 miles down the road in the same Div getting fewer Newgens. In my opinion, (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), they get the same number of newgens. They just choose not to sign as many as I do. 

Yeah, hazy is a decent description. I get that we might move up the pecking order, but I don't get how there is a different pecking order for English players being generated in England and non-English players being generated in England. That's the bit that's the unknown. 

What I find really interesting about this whole thing is that because I got to 2.1.20.12, and was producing such good intakes, (by the way I am absolutely NOT complaining about recent intakes because I still think they have been better than decent), I sort of relaxed about the facilities and forgot that we were on L20 Junior Coaching and assumed incorrectly that it was L20 Youth Recruitment. Imagine I was at L20 Youth Recruitment???? 

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. It's a really interesting discussion. Anyone else reading, please feel free to give us your thoughts/opinions. At this stage there is no right or wrong. There is just "I think", and everyone's opinion is as valid as the next one. Would be great to hear some thoughts. Lots of you must have looked at this and thought "how the hell is he doing this?" @Makoto Nakamurahave you got any ideas what is going on? You have probably done more Youth Only intakes than the rest of us combined. 

I'll be honest Jimbo, I may have done a lot of seasons youth only but I never really pay attention to any of the finer details, I do think that FM20 has really ramped up the 2nd nationalities, for an example, here is my final squad of my St. Buryan save from FM18:

Definitely less variety than what we're seeing in FM20!

This was my final youth intake as well.

 

 

[Jimbokav1971]

1 minute ago, Pompeyboyz said:

I used an editor external to the game to get the data needed so I picked out all players in the intakes.  Liverpools were small. 

But you don't see them do you? 

Do you see players on trial at other clubs before they sign or are released? 

I'm usually so busy looking at my own I don't have a chance to look at anyone else's. 

[Pompeyboyz]

Just now, Jimbokav1971 said:

But you don't see them do you? 

Do you see players on trial at other clubs before they sign or are released? 

I'm usually so busy looking at my own I don't have a chance to look at anyone else's. 

I use Geniescout which allows you to see all players on trial as well as with contracts.  

It is a PITA when it gets to youth intakes as there is not a set day now in FM20 as clubs will have theirs come through randomly and I have to hit each day before I see the details. 

[Jimbokav1971]

1 minute ago, Pompeyboyz said:

I use Geniescout which allows you to see all players on trial as well as with contracts.  

It is a PITA when it gets to youth intakes as there is not a set day now in FM20 as clubs will have theirs come through randomly and I have to hit each day before I see the details. 

So does every single active club get 16 in an intake -/+ any that have been poached? 

I really didn't think that happened. (I would have bet money on it too). 

[Pompeyboyz]

 

2 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

So does every single active club get 16 in an intake -/+ any that have been poached? 

I really didn't think that happened. (I would have bet money on it too). 

The number of players in my 2 examples is what came through each intake.  Makes me wonder if AI teams get random numbers and the players youth intakes are set 

[Jimbokav1971]

1 minute ago, Pompeyboyz said:

Makes me wonder if AI teams get random numbers and the players youth intakes are set 

Not following you on this. 

[Pompeyboyz]

Just now, Jimbokav1971 said:

Not following you on this. 

You asked if every team got 16 players per intake, but based on what I gather from my checks, those 4 teams are not getting 16 and in fact the maximum was 14 for Portsmouth in both intakes and Havant in the first.

If you have had 16 per intake so far in this save, then does the players(i.e you or me) intake have that set number as 16 but AI controlled teams may have less or maybe more?? 

Does that make more sense now?

Just gathering data now on a Perfect 20,20,20,20 facilities set

[Jimbokav1971]

1 minute ago, Pompeyboyz said:

You asked if every team got 16 players per intake, but based on what I gather from my checks, those 4 teams are not getting 16 and in fact the maximum was 14 for Portsmouth in both intakes and Havant in the first.

If you have had 16 per intake so far in this save, then does the players(i.e you or me) intake have that set number as 16 but AI controlled teams may have less or maybe more?? 

Does that make more sense now?

Just gathering data now on a Perfect 20,20,20,20 facilities set

Yes it does. Thanks. 

[Pompeyboyz]

Latest run with all facilities set to 20

Interesting takes here.

• Liverpool once more had a really small intake.  I am sure this is due to number of players in the U18 squad already as they start with 18.  Although Leeds start with 20 so it ruins that theory a little.  Portsmouth start with 6 and Havant have none. 
• Havant had an abundance of nationalities whereas Portsmouth, Leeds and Liverpool do not
• CA on all rose apart from Liverpool(I am going with the outlier of the GK with CA 121 in the second run) while PA dropped on all
• The CA for the Pro Clubs is all near identical while Semi-Pro Havant was abot 10-15 point lower

 

 

[Jimbokav1971]

Board Takeover. Oct 2042. 

 

[Jimbokav1971]

Sept 2042. 

League 2. 

Cup games. 

[Pompeyboyz]

Just finished my birthplace checks

As we can see, Havant & Waterlooville on the vanilla DB pretty much only recruited from their own backyard.  In fact in all cases, their english recruits all come from Havant or Waterlooville aside from 3 players that have a 2nd nationality and were born abroad. 

Portsmouth, who are geographically nearly identical to Havant, spread their net wider in all cases with English players coming from all around the country

What we can also see though is in the final test run with perfect facilities, the spread of recruitment is much more expanded.  

[Jimbokav1971]

That's brilliant @PompeyboyzNow for your next trick you have to come up with some conclusions based on your research and present it in bullet-points for the rest of us. 

[Pompeyboyz]

2 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

That's brilliant @PompeyboyzNow for your next trick you have to come up with some conclusions based on your research and present it in bullet-points for the rest of us. 

Hang on a sec.....this is Sunday and that sounds like work 

[Pompeyboyz]

To be fare, all the data I have produced is single season and will only give a small window into things. It would need a bigger and more concerted effort to draw anything really conclusive.  But I am sure that you will be able to use it in some way.

[Pompeyboyz]

2 hours ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

So does every single active club get 16 in an intake -/+ any that have been poached? 

I really didn't think that happened. (I would have bet money on it too). 

And looking at the birthplace data, poaching will most likely account for those outliers where Portsmouth recruit youths from outside the local area. 

However, why are Portsmouth doing it with English recruits and Havant are not when the facilities are matched??

[Jimbokav1971]

Oct 2042. 

League 2. I rotated the squad for the Bradford and Tranmere games and we lost each by a single goal so all things considered that's a decent month. 

Cup games. 

[Figure9]

19 hours ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

No, it's definitely 15 Det. 

Oops yeah think I was looking at the old one, sorry!

[Jimbokav1971]

2 hours ago, Figure9 said:

Oops yeah think I was looking at the old one, sorry!

No problem at all. 

[Jimbokav1971]

Nov 2042. 

League 2. What a shambles. Despite no losses in 5 games we still sit 4th, 2 points outside the Playoffs. 

Cup games. Quite happy with progress in the FA Cup, but it's more by accident than design. 

We've qualified for the knockout stages of the Leasing.com Trophy by accident. As far as I'm concerned this trophy is an abomination and the only way we will ever win it is with our U23 side when we are a Premier League club. 

[Jimbokav1971]

Youth Intake preview. Dec 2042. 

1 single green line and it says that it's a Golden Generation!  

Never seen that before. 

[Pompeyboyz]

This will be a fun intake to see then

[Jimbokav1971]

Dec 2042. 

League 2. From an awful month to a great month. We now have a 4 point gap between the Playoffs and us.

Cup games. 

[Jimbokav1971]

1 hour ago, Pompeyboyz said:

This will be a fun intake to see then

I haven't a clue what to make of it. Never seen anything like it. 

It's like.... there is no good news, except that they are all great. 

[Jimbokav1971]

Jan Transfer window. Jan 2043. 

(39c) Mendoza (COL) (Bal) * was sold for £300k rising to £600k and we also got him back in on loan plus the normal add-ons. 

(40a) Sjoberg (Bal) lose PPM came back in on loan after not making a single appearance at Forest. and was immediately sent off on his 2nd debut. 

The big deal though was (38c) McCormack (IRL) (Bal) * going to Hull in League 1 for £1.3M rising to £2.3M. He scored 18 goals in 18(2) appearances at the start of this season before missing 7 weeks with a lower back stress fracture. 

Finances. 

[Jimbokav1971]

Feb 2043.

League 2. We're not firing on all cylinders, but thankfully neither are those around us, (although Exeter and Bradford are in good from). 

Cup games. A brilliant win away to mid-Championship Barnsley was followed by a loss to Palace who are currently 8th in the Premier League. 

[Fosse]

What are your home and away attendances like? 

[rodesire]

3-4k at home, it seems and away varying between 2-6k if you look at screenshots

[dllu]

13 hours ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

Youth Intake preview. Dec 2042. 

1 single green line and it says that it's a Golden Generation!  

Never seen that before.  

 

Whenever I see the words "golden generation" on FM, my response is invariably this:

Edited August 10, 2020 by dllu

[Jimbokav1971]

56 minutes ago, Fosse said:

What are your home and away attendances like? 

I show the attendances at individual matches on the fixtures screenshot each month. 

That being said, here are some averages/records. 

We started off playing our home games at Irchester, but had to move to ground-share with Kettering from 2031 until 2040 because our 1,000 capacity wasn't up to standard. 
In 2041 we moved to ground-share with Northampton and then in 2041 moved back into Ircherster to play in our 5,293 capacity all-seater stadium.

What I find interesting about our lowest attendances is that in the 3 years since we have been in the Football League and been entered into the Leasing.com Trophy, we have played 3 games each season, but in each season we have played 2 games away and the only home game is against the U23 side, (that has the poorest following). I wonder if this is by design rather than by accident? 

[Jimbokav1971]

54 minutes ago, rodesire said:

3-4k at home, it seems and away varying between 2-6k if you look at screenshots

Yeah, averaging about 3,500 at home over the last couple of seasons in League 2. 

We are looking to get promoted to League 1 this season though so I'm not sure how long our stadium will be fit for purpose. (We have to wait 25 years for a new one remember).

[Jimbokav1971]

49 minutes ago, dllu said:

Whenever I see the words "golden generation" on FM, my response is invariably this:

I would have agreed with you until this save, (especially in my last save in Wales). But I can't have any complaints at all about my Youth Intake here. I think every single intake has eventually been viewed as a Golden Generation, although 1 or 2 weren't labelled "Golden Generation" in the preview. I'm loving Intake Day at the moment. 

[Jimbokav1971]

23 hours ago, Pompeyboyz said:

OK so first 2 runs complete.

This is using Vanilla DB with only English Leagues to Level 6 and a default large DB.  I selected 4 teams from various leagues for comparison.  Portsmouth, Havant and Waterlooville, Leeds Utd and Liverpool

Next up is the same setup but I changed the facilities to match @Jimbokav1971

 

The other thing I forgot to mention was this. 

This is the intake from H&W when they have the facilities improved in line with what we have had since early in the save. So my question is.... is this comparable to what I have been getting through in respect of the foreigners I've made money on? I appreciate that (30a) James (DMA) * might be a bit of a freak in that respect, (and by the way he's about to turn 30 so my next post will be all about him), but does 130-140(ish) PA equate to a Premier League player? 

[-Jef-]

Every so often I am surprised at how my non-top players progressed since they came through the intake and i set up individual training for them and forgot about them. Then I get some weird offer from HSV, Bayern or Hertha and am stunned at how this 7th best prospect in abysmal intake can get to a level where he is wanted by these clubs. Truly goes to show that no players are 'bad' and that everyone can be developed to certain level where you can make money off of them or even have them be a backup. Inspired by @_Ben_ tbf

Just got intake preview that has every line yellow. YELLOW! I had to go for a walk to calm myself. Eager to see how ***** are ***** these players and see if I can get at least one decent player out of them.

That's why I just glance at the preview to know what I can expect and go hunting for positions that I have players promoted from U19 that season and I will not get in this intake.

 

edit- yes, 140 is prem level player

Edited August 10, 2020 by rosque

[scousevasey]

15 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

I would have agreed with you until this save, (especially in my last save in Wales). But I can't have any complaints at all about my Youth Intake here. I think every single intake has eventually been viewed as a Golden Generation, although 1 or 2 weren't labelled "Golden Generation" in the preview. I'm loving Intake Day at the moment. 

I think there are two things at play here*.

 

1) England had their 'golden generation' in the 2000's centred around the Lampard/Gerrard issues in midfield, and they flattered to deceive.  Maybe it is tongue in cheek from SI that every England team since has been labelled as a 'golden generation'

2) The save is in the 2040's meaning that gold is now worthless, and a valuable intake would actually be a 'bitcoin generation'

 

Spoiler

*this may not be entirely serious

 

[Jimbokav1971]

7 minutes ago, rosque said:

Every so often I am surprised at how my non-top players progressed since they came through the intake and i set up individual training for them and forgot about them. Then I get some weird offer from HSV, Bayern or Hertha and am stunned at how this 7th best prospect in abysmal intake can get to a level where he is wanted by these clubs. Truly goes to show that no players are 'bad' and that everyone can be developed to certain level where you can make money off of them or even have them be a backup. Inspired by @_Ben_ tbf

I've found another tool that I'm not sure people take enough advantage of. 

I think everyone knows by now that I use the IR button and don't actually "play" matches, although it should be said that I have played about 4 this season for varying reasons. 

What I often do though, is ask my Ass man to pitch the match squad for the next game, (immediately prior to the game). I don't stick with it 100% ever, (because he always includes a 2nd GK), but every so often he picks a player not in the Senior squad that wasn't on my radar, (or the one that I especially like), he picks a player slightly out of position in a role that I wasn't even considering him for. 

We have loads of advice and feedback options in this game and I think that in the main, a lot of us don't make enough use of them. 

ps. Having said that, he also has a preference for playing centre-backs out of position at full-back with and I only agree to that when there are literally not even any kid full-backs that are fit. You don't have to take the advise. You really just need to be aware of it to benefit from it. 

[Jimbokav1971]

Just now, scousevasey said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

*this may not be entirely serious

 

That's completely my sort of post. Someone is in a very good mood today.