Exploit Tactics

[tony wright]

Why do exploit tactics work? I must admit that I have used them in the past but the success I have achieved with them feels tainted and not as satisfying as achieving success with your own tactic. Looking into these exploit tactics they seem to have loads of team instructions and lots of player instructions, some of which I would say are illogical (playing with Inverted Full Backs but with overlap left and right selected in Team Instructions?) and also risky, tackle harder as a PI and get stuck in as a TI?. Yet you can still take a team from League two and win the Premier League in about five seasons.

[Guest]

There is no exploit tactic in FM20. Only heavy instructions as far I can see. The last exploit tactic, was in back to FM17 with no strikers.

[tony wright]

I would disagree that there are no exploit tactics. If a tactic uses heavy instructions to take advantage of a weakness in the match engine, surely that is an explout tactic?. Especially if the formation/tactics would not be played out in real life, for example, a newly promted team going to Anfield and playing a 4-2-3-1 with a high line and attacking instructions.

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, tony wright said:

Why do exploit tactics work? I must admit that I have used them in the past but the success I have achieved with them feels tainted and not as satisfying as achieving success with your own tactic. Looking into these exploit tactics they seem to have loads of team instructions and lots of player instructions, some of which I would say are illogical (playing with Inverted Full Backs but with overlap left and right selected in Team Instructions?) and also risky, tackle harder as a PI and get stuck in as a TI?. Yet you can still take a team from League two and win the Premier League in about five seasons.

Telling your inverted wingbacks to overlap is no exploit. We do it to tell them to advance further up the field before cutting inside. And like someone before me said there are no exploit tactics anymore.

How is using the tools you are given an exploit?

Edited July 4, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, tony wright said:

If a tactic uses heavy instructions to take advantage of a weakness in the match engine, surely that is an explout tactic?

There may be principles that work better than others (e.g. high-press), but there's no inherently broken exploits like there used to be. They were called "super-systems", tactics like Diablo and Scramjet won you trophies while holidaying with pretty much any squad, with win rates exceeding 80%. I'd assume that's why nowadays we're locked down to a bunch of pre-made roles with hard-coded behaviors and why wide strikers are no longer a thing.

That said, some tactics clearly still work better than others, as tactic testing communities can prove with actual numbers. Those are usually super aggressive systems that throw everyone forward and generate 30+ shots per game in hope of overwhelming the AI. They may work most of the time, but they still won't overachieve out of all proportions without having enough squad quality. This thread was made just recently, of a guy using one of Knap's downloaded tactics as a newly promoted team in the Premier League and of course an Attacking 4-2-3-1 with 6 Attack duties got taken apart as you'd expect.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, tony wright said:

I would disagree that there are no exploit tactics. If a tactic uses heavy instructions to take advantage of a weakness in the match engine, surely that is an explout tactic?. Especially if the formation/tactics would not be played out in real life, for example, a newly promted team going to Anfield and playing a 4-2-3-1 with a high line and attacking instructions.

The game offers extreme settings, so it's not exploit.

Exploit will be something like having 6 attackers and win every match, so AI don't know how to react; basically a flaw into ME code.

A flaw into ME code is long throw ins, every time AI can't defend it. That's an exploit.

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, tony wright said:

I would disagree that there are no exploit tactics. If a tactic uses heavy instructions to take advantage of a weakness in the match engine, surely that is an explout tactic?. Especially if the formation/tactics would not be played out in real life, for example, a newly promted team going to Anfield and playing a 4-2-3-1 with a high line and attacking instructions.

According to your logic many of the preset tactics that come with the game, like Vertical Tiki-Taka and Geggenpress Preset would be exploit tactics too no?

[tony wright]

Perhaps exploit tactic is the wrong word, what I meant to ask is why tactics that seem to be so far removed from what a real life team would use can still be effective.

[herne79]

Simply put, the game allows for such systems to be used because the developers make the game that way. 

It gives people choice - some want to play the game following basic football principles; others just want to win the Champions League with a 5th division side in 5 years; others want a middle ground.  The game's design intention is for realism (and we can absolutely play it in that manner if we want to), but that doesn't stop us playing it in an unrealistic or more creative way if we so choose.

I'd hate to see the day when all the tactic creator allowed us to do would be to pick a 4231/442/433/352 formation and severely limit our tactical choices.  I imagine the developers would too as they probably wouldn't sell as many copies of the game as they do now.

1 hour ago, tony wright said:

Perhaps exploit tactic is the wrong word, what I meant to ask is why tactics that seem to be so far removed from what a real life team would use can still be effective.

The game's design intention is to be played in a realistic manner.  That's how the AI plays and how the game would like us to play too.  But if we want to use some fancy system with a zillion attacking players and even more TIs, the AI can get overwhelmed because only one team on the pitch (the AI team) is trying to play football in a realistic manner.  Just imagine the outcry if the AI managed to develop a Diablo system .

[Mandy42]

6 hours ago, Cadoni said:

The game offers extreme settings, so it's not exploit.

Exploit will be something like having 6 attackers and win every match, so AI don't know how to react; basically a flaw into ME code.

A flaw into ME code is long throw ins, every time AI can't defend it. That's an exploit.

Just spent the whole of the Carabao Cup final throwing the ball straight to the opposition goalkeeper, so the AI does know how to defend long throws

[Svenc]

9 hours ago, herne79 said:

But if we want to use some fancy system with a zillion attacking players and even more TIs, the AI can get overwhelmed because only one team on the pitch (the AI team) is trying to play football in a realistic manner. 

And yet, a lot (not all) frustrations expressed can be oft traced back to just that kind of thing. The download sections for instance are usually filled with tactics that basically a) see no defenders outside the centre backs and b) have nobody occupying the centre of the pitch, which usually has an effect both on defending (speaks to reason) as well as attacking (no much space created if everybody sits atop of each other for lotsa additional set pieces / crap shots).

And depending how the AI lines up, (and how powerful the set piece exploits are) this can get quite nasty indeed.

This has been going on ever since the "collision avoidance" which forces players to run around markers, rather than ghosting through them. Prior to that the schtick was it to have a fistful players always staying behind the ball, and launching balls towards isolated attackers, which was too efficient due to that "ghosting". As it is: garbage in, occasionally garbage out. 

Not my problem though.  

Edited July 5, 2020 by Svenc

[Experienced Defender]

On 04/07/2020 at 11:36, tony wright said:

Why do exploit tactics work?

Because the ME is not perfect and can never be, no matter how good FM as a game generally is (for me personally, the best ever). But I don't see any problem with either creating or using exploit tactics, even though I myself never use them. People are absolutely entitled to play the game however they want and like, because they pay it with their own money. So it's ultimately up to one's own preferences 

[Enzo_Francescoli]

On 04/07/2020 at 19:17, herne79 said:

It gives people choice - some want to play the game following basic football principles; others just want to win the Champions League with a 5th division side in 5 years; others want a middle ground.  The game's design intention is for realism (and we can absolutely play it in that manner if we want to), but that doesn't stop us playing it in an unrealistic or more creative way if we so choose.

Doesn't that - sort of - make the game a failure, though? If playing unrealistically will win the CL with a League Two team in five years (I know it was an extreme example on your part, but you get the point) while playing realistically will not, that means realism has officially taken a back seat.

Every single football tactic has been designed with one main goal in mind: to win.

Dozens of factors contributed to Leicester winning the Premier League (for one random example), but using unrealistic gung-ho gegenpressing wasn't one of them. If anything, their tactic was the most "realistic" I've seen in years. So, when it comes to the tactical side, the game is actually greatly detached from real life football. Which is kind of a bad look for a simulator.

(It's still the greatest game ever.)

[herne79]

9 hours ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

Doesn't that - sort of - make the game a failure, though? If playing unrealistically will win the CL with a League Two team in five years (I know it was an extreme example on your part, but you get the point) while playing realistically will not, that means realism has officially taken a back seat.

Every single football tactic has been designed with one main goal in mind: to win.

Dozens of factors contributed to Leicester winning the Premier League (for one random example), but using unrealistic gung-ho gegenpressing wasn't one of them. If anything, their tactic was the most "realistic" I've seen in years. So, when it comes to the tactical side, the game is actually greatly detached from real life football. Which is kind of a bad look for a simulator.

(It's still the greatest game ever.)

You’ve taken one paragraph out of context with the rest of my post.

However, why does giving us the freedom of choice to play the game in whatever manner we choose make the game a failure?

You mention Leicester. If you want to design, use and be successful with a tactic inspired by them, you absolutely can. How is that greatly detached from real life football?

On the flip side, if you want to design, use and be successful with a gung ho gegenpress system, you can do that too.

I don’t think choice is a particularly bad look .

[Rashidi]

11 hours ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

Doesn't that - sort of - make the game a failure, though? If playing unrealistically will win the CL with a League Two team in five years (I know it was an extreme example on your part, but you get the point) while playing realistically will not, that means realism has officially taken a back seat.

Every single football tactic has been designed with one main goal in mind: to win.

Dozens of factors contributed to Leicester winning the Premier League (for one random example), but using unrealistic gung-ho gegenpressing wasn't one of them. If anything, their tactic was the most "realistic" I've seen in years. So, when it comes to the tactical side, the game is actually greatly detached from real life football. Which is kind of a bad look for a simulator.

(It's still the greatest game ever.)

I had someone pop in on my discord server and we were chatting in a one on one session and he showed me his system. I was really impressed. He managed to build a 442 that was simply sublime. It featured a very hardworking bunch of two banks of 4 and all he did was soak and hit on the counter. It was his goal, and he achieved it. I think the current game offers people choices, some may like simple work arounds like the long throw or playing in ways that suit them, but who are we to judge how another is entertained.

[yolixeya]

On 04/07/2020 at 19:17, herne79 said:

The game's design intention is to be played in a realistic manner.  That's how the AI plays and how the game would like us to play too.  But if we want to use some fancy system with a zillion attacking players and even more TIs, the AI can get overwhelmed because only one team on the pitch (the AI team) is trying to play football in a realistic manner.

What I would like to see is that the players who use really agressive tactics like that just get punished more instead of overwhelming the AI and winning games. To be clear, I didn't use any of the downloaded tactics and I don't really know if they generate wins like that but if it works like you described, then that is mostly AI issue and it needs to be improved so that AI can counter thhose systems.

[Enzo_Francescoli]

Fair points from both @herne79 and @Rashidi. I've prepared some smart-ass counter-arguments, but there is no need to push this discussion any further. It's up to erveryone's choice how they want to play the game. I know I've made mine, and it's the same as yours.

[Experienced Defender]

@made_in_turkey4 If you want a discussion about your tactic, you have to start a separate thread.

This one will now be locked.