IW or IF possible in 4231???

[ThomasHK1979]

In every Knap 4231 tactic the AML and AMR is set as wingers. Is it even possible to use IW or IF in this system and make them perform like when they are set as wingers?

Do anyone have som tips for personal instructions to my AML and AMR when I set them as IW in a 4231 system?

[Spiegel]

10 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Is it even possible to use IW or IF in this system and make them perform like when they are set as wingers?

If you want them to perform like wingers, then why not just use wingers? 

[ThomasHK1979]

I want them to score a ton of goals and get the best average rating as possible. 

[crusadertsar]

I don't understand your problem. Use the role that fits your tactic or your players best. Why does it matter if Knap only uses wingers? Usually it's a good idea to have variety in tactic. One wide attacker stretching the side and the other cutting inside.

[ThomasHK1979]

That’s the thing. Im not 100 % satisfied. 
 

In my 4231 use Pedri(AML) and Stengs (AMR) as IW. How would you set their PI? 

Have you ever tried roam from position set to your IW?

[Experienced Defender]

Do you use Knap's tactic or your own?

[ThomasHK1979]

Knaps were I tried to change my IWB to WB and the wingers to IW. 

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, ThomasHK1979 said:

Knaps were I tried to change my IWB to WB and the wingers to IW. 

Well, in that case you should ask Knap himself (in his own thread, I guess). 

[crusadertsar]

14 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Knaps were I tried to change my IWB to WB and the wingers to IW. 

What is your reasoning for changing those roles? Because to me it seems like they could change some fundamental things about how the tactic will work? Wouldn't be just easier to create a tactic from scratch to fit these roles. There's probably a reason why Knap used those particular roles to get a specific style or movement. But yeah it's probably best to ask him.

Edited July 5, 2020 by crusadertsar

[ThomasHK1979]

Sure. Its just frustrates me that no matter which team i chose, i cant get my AMR/AML to perform better than 7.00-7.10 per season.

[Keyzer Soze]

@ThomasHK1979,

I'm curious to see your tactic. Could you please post a screenshot?

Perhaps yours IF, or IW, are not playing well in your 4231 formation because they dont have enough space to do the main thing they to... cut inside. How are your forward and attacking midfilders set up?

If you want your wide players to be the main goal scorers, you need to provide them enough space to cut inside.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

ts just frustrates me that no matter which team i chose, i cant get my AMR/AML to perform better than 7.00-7.10 per season

That's a pretty good average rating for a player. You probably need to tone down your expectations a bit. 

[ThomasHK1979]

2 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

@ThomasHK1979,

I'm curious to see your tactic. Could you please post a screenshot?

Perhaps yours IF, or IW, are not playing well in your 4231 formation because they dont have enough space to do the main thing they to... cut inside. How are your forward and attacking midfilders set up?

If you want your wide players to be the main goal scorers, you need to provide them enough space to cut inside.

Its like this one. I dont want to use wingers. I want to investigate how to make the AML and AMR to perform as high a rating as possible by setting them as IF or IW.

So the things a changed in this tactic:

IWB to WB(sup) - Instructions: Shoot less often, cross from byline and stay wide

Winger to IF(Att) or IW(Att) - Instructions: Tried a lot of things here!. Stay wide. Stay narrow. Shoot often. Risky passing. Cross less. Cross often. Roaming from position on/off. 

AMC to AP(Sup) Instructions: Thiago Almada is doing ok. Especially when i set him to move into channels.

 

[crusadertsar]

22 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Its like this one. I dont want to use wingers. I want to investigate how to make the AML and AMR to perform as high a rating as possible by setting them as IF or IW.

So the things a changed in this tactic:

IWB to WB(sup) - Instructions: Shoot less often, cross from byline and stay wide

Winger to IF(Att) or IW(Att) - Instructions: Tried a lot of things here!. Stay wide. Stay narrow. Shoot often. Risky passing. Cross less. Cross often. Roaming from position on/off. 

AMC to AP(Sup) Instructions: Thiago Almada is doing ok. Especially when i set him to move into channels.

 

 But you are playing on attacking mentality with the front four on attack duties! 

And your Team instructions are way to aggressive. If you are playing on Attacking mentality then make the instructions more conservative or lower the mentality. Or balance your attack roles better. Otherwise your inside forwards won't perform well in a such as a system as yours. It's too disconnected.

And why do you even need two wide attackers to cut inside in this tactic? You operate with a AMC, so you should leave some space for him in middle. And besides 4-2-3-1 usually works better with one wide attacker going inside and one actually staying wide.

Edited July 6, 2020 by crusadertsar

[ThomasHK1979]

Just now, crusadertsar said:

 But you are playing on attacking mentality with the front four on attack duties! 

And half of your Team instructions make no sense to me

The screenshot tactic is Knaps. I a previous Milan save i won Serie A 3 years in a row and beat FC Bayern 4-0 in the CL final.
Leao as AP scored almost all my goals. So I wanted to investigate how I could make my AML/AMR perform better and score/assist a lot more.

So what makes no sense? The one on the screenshot or the things I applied to the tactic?

 

[crusadertsar]

15 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

The screenshot tactic is Knaps. I a previous Milan save i won Serie A 3 years in a row and beat FC Bayern 4-0 in the CL final.
Leao as AP scored almost all my goals. So I wanted to investigate how I could make my AML/AMR perform better and score/assist a lot more.

So what makes no sense? The one on the screenshot or the things I applied to the tactic?

 

Read my edited post.

The things you applied to the tactic, didn't change the fact that your front four are way too aggressive.

But if you insist on using plug-n-play tactics like that then I'm afraid there's not much I can help you with. IMO those tactics don't really make any rational sense to me. You should bring this question to the download forum where maybe you can get some help from Knap who created it. Here we can help you if you want to learn how to make your own tactic or have a tactic that you want to improve, make more balanced. We can't just give you a magic answer to how your wingers can get 8 rating. If I knew that, do you think I would be here?

Edited July 6, 2020 by crusadertsar

[ThomasHK1979]

12 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Read my edited post.

The things you applied to the tactic, didn't change the fact that your front four are way too aggressive.

But if you insist on using plug-n-play tactics like that then I'm afraid there's not much I can help you with. IMO those tactics don't really make any rational sense to me. You should bring this question to the download forum where maybe you can get some help from Knap who created it. Here we can help you if you want to learn how to make your own tactic or have a tactic that you want to improve, make more balanced. We can't just give you a magic answer to how your wingers can get 8 rating. If I knew that, do you think I would be here?

But thats my point. I am open to all your suggestions, because I only played this game for 3 months. Thats why i download a tactic because I dont have any experience in setting it up from scratch.
The only thing I would like is to use the 4231 and make my AML/AMR to perform as good as possible.
Up until now all you did was to point out all the flaws and some passive/aggressive behaviour. How about giving some constructive inputs instead?

[Keyzer Soze]

the tactic in the picture is made for quick attacks, because with all 4 front players in attack, if you don't try to score quickly you'll end up with a very conggested play.

When you change both wingers to IF or IW, you change the way of attacking, and instead of having 2 players stretching the game, you now have two players running to a area that have no space. Paring IF and IW on attack with a AF(a) is not a really good combination.

So, if you want to have yours IF/IW to score, you must think who will provide them the chances to score? the forward?, the attacking midfielder? the DLP? ok, so you must set them to be more of a provider role and less of a attacking/scoring role.

I'm not gonna talk about team instructions, because to be honest all those instructions put together don't make any sence to me. They could work.... but i don't know how.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Keyzer Soze

[crusadertsar]

45 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

But thats my point. I am open to all your suggestions, because I only played this game for 3 months. Thats why i download a tactic because I dont have any experience in setting it up from scratch.
The only thing I would like is to use the 4231 and make my AML/AMR to perform as good as possible.
Up until now all you did was to point out all the flaws and some passive/aggressive behaviour. How about giving some constructive inputs instead?

Okay fair enough. I would just start simple with positive mentality and a few TIs to define your style. So if you are going for geggenpress, because you are Liverpool then set high DL and LOE coupled with Counterpress and maybe more closing down or just standard pressing with a split block. And higher tempo and that's it. Other instructions you can add after you play a few games and depending on what you see. For the front four i would set up Salaf as Inside Forward cutting in from the right. And Salah giving width on the left as winger on attack. Firminho as False9 up top. And maybe someone one Shackiri playing as attacking midfielder on attack behind him with instructions to pass more and to take more risks. Then your midfielders I would play a little differently. Keita is not really DLP. His great off the ball makes him into a great mezzala cm (a). I would play him on the side of the winger. And then maybe Henderson or Fabinho as DLP on defend as a holder beside him.

If you put Salah as Inside Forward on support the. Robertson could be played as wingback on attack or complete wingback on attack behind him for a natural overlap. And having Fabinho playing as DLP on defend on that side will give more defensive stability.

Edited July 6, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Its like this one. I dont want to use wingers. I want to investigate how to make the AML and AMR to perform as high a rating as possible by setting them as IF or IW

The problem is that it's a plug'n'play tactic, so it's designed to work precisely the way it is. Any tweaks or changes you make can ruin the entire tactic. That's why I advised you earlier to consult with Knap as the creator of this tactic. Only he can give you proper advice. 

[CaptCanuck]

5 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

the tactic in the picture is made for quick attacks, because with all 4 front players in attack, if you don't try to score quickly you'll end up with a very conggested play.

When you change both wingers to IF or IW, you change the way of attacking, and instead of having 2 players stretching the game, you now have two players running to a area that have no space. Paring IF and IW on attack with a AF(a) is not a really good combination.

So, if you want to have yours IF/IW to score, you must think who will provide them the chances to score? the forward?, the attacking midfielder? the DLP? ok, so you must set them to be more of a provider role and less of a attacking/scoring role.

I'm not gonna talk about team instructions, because to be honest all those instructions put together don't make any sence to me. They could work.... but i don't know how.

Congested indeed. Looking at that my first thought was car crash, with those 4 guys piling on top of each other. With any kind of sustained possession it looks like in attack it's a 2-0-8 as those 4 supporting players will surely be in and around the box.

I don't know anything about P&P tactics as it's not my bag, but when you explain its purpose is quick hitters off turnovers I can see how a 'turned to 11' tactic would work as such.

[crusadertsar]

12 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

Congested indeed. Looking at that my first thought was car crash, with those 4 guys piling on top of each other. With any kind of sustained possession it looks like in attack it's a 2-0-8 as those 4 supporting players will surely be in and around the box.

I don't know anything about P&P tactics as it's not my bag, but when you explain its purpose is quick hitters off turnovers I can see how a 'turned to 11' tactic would work as such.

It's a classic Knap tactic. All brute force. It's not my bag either but I'm sure it's effective, half the time. If you are not playing as a world-class team though, how are you going to deal with AI attack once they recover from the initial pummeling. It's probably the kind of tactic where you get your goals in the first 45 minutes and then hope the AI doesn't score more in 2nd. So having world-class defenders probably helps.

[jc1]

On 06/07/2020 at 13:32, ThomasHK1979 said:

But thats my point. I am open to all your suggestions, because I only played this game for 3 months. Thats why i download a tactic because I dont have any experience in setting it up from scratch.
The only thing I would like is to use the 4231 and make my AML/AMR to perform as good as possible.
Up until now all you did was to point out all the flaws and some passive/aggressive behaviour. How about giving some constructive inputs instead?

Go to Knap's thread and ask him, he has multiple tactics and can suggest which one is more suited to the one you are looking for, he does have a 4-2-3-1 tactic which has IF's.