Brescia 442 diamond and using a Regista

[Fatkidscantjump]

 Hello,

Reposting here so I don't hijack another thread

As a disclaimer i have very limited tactical understanding in FM.
I have chosen to use Inverted Wingers myself and regular Wingbacks. Basically since i'm playing with Brescia I wanted to use Tonali as a Regista, since he has obviously the attributes for it and also very good player traits imo (Tries Killer balls / Long Range pass). So I wanted to create space in the middle for him and runners upfront, while still keeping a possession tactic.
Basic idea was to create triangle / diamonds of possession on either side of the pitch. Which would create space for my Regista (Tonali) to then switch play with a through ball for the opposite winger or forward. Kind of like how Barcelona used David Villa or Henry starting very wide and then making runs inside.

So here is the tactic i'm using so far:

I've only played two friendlies so far, but I have produced a goal that I wanted out of the tactic :

Bisoli was Tonali sub, as you can see he starts the posession play by orienting play to the side. You can see I have somewhat of a diamond consisting of player n°28 (Inverted Winger), 29 (Wingback), 18 (F9 dropping deep), and 25 (Regista). With also an option to pass it back to the Central Defender. F9 gives ball back to the Wingback, who gives it back to the Regista. Which has some space to get a nice through ball on the opposite side to the Inverted Winger making a run. Luckily he scores his shot, but ideally I would want him to short pass to the Forward or AMC on the edge of the box because I feel like that shot was kinda difficult to score, but that's nit picking.

So that was pretty satisfying however I feel like the tactic is still very much perfectible in terms of defense, general team instructions etc. I have very much limited knowledge so I just slapped in stuff that felt like made sense. I'm really unsure about AMC / strikers roles for example.

I'll play more with the tactic cause my sample size of games is very limited but in the meantime any feedback is appreciated.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Fatkidscantjump

[crusadertsar]

Where is your midfield?

[Experienced Defender]

24 minutes ago, Fatkidscantjump said:

I would be mostly concerned about your defensive vulnerability. You don't have a single holding midfielder, both flanks consist of attack-minded roles and on top of that you use very aggressive out-of-possession instructions coupled with a high-risk team mentality. But if you like how the tactic works for you, then ignore my comment 

[Zemahh]

27 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Where is your midfield?

Made me chuckle. 

As for the tactic, I agree with ED, looks very gung-ho. Both IWs will run off early, leaving your REG no simple passing options. You've also got as many as five roles trying risky passes which, combined with Positive Mentality and Pass Into Space, could result in you wasting possession very often; and when you do, you're unlikely to have many bodies behind the ball:

• RGA will often roam from his position, meaning he could be caught high up the pitch
• IWs with Very Attacking mentalities won't be too concerned about defending
• WBs will regularly bomb down the flanks and defend aggressively (step up sooner than FBs)

All of the above could easily result in your CBs ending up on their own and, with your aggressive way of defending (Higher Line, Extremely Urgent, Get Stuck In), they could end up overcommitting too.

I imagine anything works as long as you have a good squad, but I'd definitely make adjustments against better teams.

[Fatkidscantjump]

il y a 37 minutes, crusadertsar a dit :

Where is your midfield?

Well as you can see on the video, i had the regista, F9 and AMC forming a triangle on the midfield during the play. But, this tactic aim to primarily "skip" the midfield with vertical passes OR wide play.

 

 

il y a 16 minutes, Experienced Defender a dit :

I would be mostly concerned about your defensive vulnerability. You don't have a single holding midfielder, both flanks consist of attack-minded roles and on top of that you use very aggressive out-of-possession instructions coupled with a high-risk team mentality. But if you like how the tactic works for you, then ignore my comment 

You are totally right, I played a couple more matches and made a few changes (changed forwards to AF(a) and DLF(s) and then went on holidays for the rest of the season.


Surprisingly good results as I was predicted 17th by the media. Tonali is the second best player in the league in terms of average rating just behind Ronaldo. As for assists my Attacking Midfielder and one of my Wingers have respectively 14 and 13 and Tonali has 12.

But as you said, defense is very fragile to say the least, I conceded around 20 more goals than teams around my position on the table. Tactic seems to be very coinflip, I beat Inter 4-0 and 2-0 for example, but also lost 6-2 (!) to Roma, 4-0 to Juve, 4-1 to Atalanta.

So now i'm looking for a way to solidify the tactic defensively while having a minimal impact on offensive and style of play ; some stuff I will try in order to do that will be lowering mentality to Balanced (Cautious?) and/or lowering defensive and engagement line and/or easing off the pressing urgency a bit.

[Fatkidscantjump]

il y a 4 minutes, Zemahh a dit :

Made me chuckle. 

As for the tactic, I agree with ED, looks very gung-ho. Both IWs will run off early, leaving your REG no simple passing options. You've also got as many as five roles trying risky passes which, combined with Positive Mentality and Pass Into Space, could result in you wasting possession very often; and when you do, you're unlikely to have many bodies behind the ball:

• RGA will often roam from his position, meaning he could be caught high up the pitch
• IWs with Very Attacking mentalities won't be too concerned about defending
• WBs will regularly bomb down the flanks and defend aggressively (step up sooner than FBs)

All of the above could easily result in your CBs ending up on their own and, with your aggressive way of defending (Higher Line, Extremely Urgent, Get Stuck In), they could end up overcommitting too.

I imagine anything works as long as you have a good squad, but I'd definitely make adjustments against better teams.

Do you think switching the Regista to a DLP(s) role would be a possible compromise between keeping him creative and the playmaker while also making him more impactful in defense ? As well as maybe switching IW to Support ? But if I do that, how much would I restrict the offense ?

[crusadertsar]

Switching him to DLP won't solve your defesive problems. You need more than one player in the midfield for your tactic to make sense.

Edited July 26, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Fatkidscantjump]

il y a 26 minutes, crusadertsar a dit :

Switching him to DLP won't solve your defesive problems. You need more than one player in the midfield for your tactic to make sense.

I'm not sure what are you trying to tell me. Are my issues unsolvable as it is and I should change the formation and start from scratch ?

[ferrarinseb]

18 minutes ago, Fatkidscantjump said:

I'm not sure what are you trying to tell me. Are my issues unsolvable as it is and I should change the formation and start from scratch ?

Your lack of defensive cover means your CB's need to cover alot of ground or be very alert to not concede goals. Your System needs a Cover midfielder aka Holding midfielder to do the dirty job so that your Regista can play his role, where you place him is your choice.

 

[crusadertsar]

17 minutes ago, ferrarinseb said:

Your lack of defensive cover means your CB's need to cover alot of ground or be very alert to not concede goals. Your System needs a Cover midfielder aka Holding midfielder to do the dirty job so that your Regista can play his role, where you place him is your choice.

 

Exactly this! @Fatkidscantjump As it is right now your tactic is not sustainable. You might win a few games by shocking the opposition in the first half but then you will probably concede as they become aware of the holes in your formation.

Edited July 26, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Fatkidscantjump]

Got it. So now the question is which position do I convert into another midfielder. My AM has been performing rather well so it makes me want to keep it. Plus i feel like the position is more flexible than having a second Striker.
 

Hence why i swapped the second striker for a BWM(d). I chose BWM because the description fitted what I should want him to do ("looks to win the ball in the centre and quickly lay it off to a more creative player").  But maybe a more static role would be in order ?

I also changed Wingbacks to Fullbacks. Hopefully they will still bring offensive support.



Here is where I stand, I'll try to play a couple matches as this to see if theres improvements.

Thanks for all the feedback by the way its much appreciated.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Fatkidscantjump said:

now i'm looking for a way to solidify the tactic defensively while having a minimal impact on offensive and style of play ; some stuff I will try in order to do that will be lowering mentality to Balanced (Cautious?)

Lowering the mentality does not make you defensively solid. The mentality is not about that. Roles, duties and vertical compactness are a lot more important factors regarding defensive solidity than the mentality. 

[Experienced Defender]

10 minutes ago, Fatkidscantjump said:

You absolutely do not need to have both wide midfielders on attack duties in order for them to be an attacking threat. I'll show you what one of my favorite setups looked like, and it was very effective in attack while at the same time as solid in defense:

F9/DLFsu   AF

 

IWsu        CMat        WMsu

HB

FBat    BPDco  CDde  IWBsu

SKsu

The only regular team instructions were run at defence (in possession), distribute to CBs and FBs (in transition) and higher D-line (out of possession). The rest were just small occasional tweaks (based on my observations during a particular match). The mentality was Balanced. So simple, but the play was great.

Think about that 

 

[Joey Numbaz]

Following this and the other thread closely as I also was about to post a 442 Wide Diamond thread yesterday. There must be something in the water.

The wide diamond can definitely work. Dafuge has used it with great success. You don’t necessarily need to drop a striker back to the DM strata.

You could keep the shape, and move the playmaker to the wing, or to the AMC, Tonali could retrain to either WP or AP I’d imagine. I’ve used him all over the field in FM19, he was an excellent DR for me even.

Then in the DM spot you can put a defense first guy who still has some offensive skills.

I posted a thread on the 442 wide diamond as I was experimenting a year ago, that I’d forgotten about and stumbled across it yesterday searching for help on this myself. There are some ideas in there that might help.

I think if you insist on a Regista role, you’ll either need a player like prime Kanté or a different formation. A DLPd could work I’d think with the right player.

Unfortunately I never really ‘finished’ that thread above.

[Fatkidscantjump]

Il y a 1 heure, Joey Numbaz a dit :

Following this and the other thread closely as I also was about to post a 442 Wide Diamond thread yesterday. There must be something in the water.

The wide diamond can definitely work. Dafuge has used it with great success. You don’t necessarily need to drop a striker back to the DM strata.

You could keep the shape, and move the playmaker to the wing, or to the AMC, Tonali could retrain to either WP or AP I’d imagine. I’ve used him all over the field in FM19, he was an excellent DR for me even.

Then in the DM spot you can put a defense first guy who still has some offensive skills.

I posted a thread on the 442 wide diamond as I was experimenting a year ago, that I’d forgotten about and stumbled across it yesterday searching for help on this myself. There are some ideas in there that might help.

I think if you insist on a Regista role, you’ll either need a player like prime Kanté or a different formation. A DLPd could work I’d think with the right player.

Unfortunately I never really ‘finished’ that thread above.

That was an excellent read however I feel like i'll stick to the Regista role since I've never really used it and it's interesting to me to see how to make it work, especially when you have the perfect player for it.

[crusadertsar]

3 hours ago, Fatkidscantjump said:

That was an excellent read however I feel like i'll stick to the Regista role since I've never really used it and it's interesting to me to see how to make it work, especially when you have the perfect player for it.

If you actually read that thread then you would see that the guy is actually using a regista role and makes it work in a similar, although much more defensively sound, formation to yours

Edited July 26, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Fatkidscantjump]

il y a une heure, crusadertsar a dit :

If you actually read that thread then you would see that the guy is actually using a regista role and makes it work in a similar, although much more defensively sound, formation to yours

I did read it, bit too fast maybe, thought I picked up that he changed the regista to DLP. But it was a late game change apparently to preserve the score.
As I said it was a wonderful read but it overwhelmed me by the sheer amount of information and experiments there is, as I said earlier on the thread I have very limited tactical knowledge, he experimented with different roles for wingers and / or midfielders almost every game which is incredibly useful information but maybe a bit too advanced for me right now as i'm still in the phase of defining a tactical layout that i will build upon.