Salah, Messi, Neymar and more

[ThomasHK1979]

There’s been a lot of debate about 4231 this year. Roles for midfielders, roles for the wingers, with DMs or with CMs...

So a simple question:

In a 4231 system. Have anyone been able to get a winger,IF, or IW to make 20+ goals per season or even be the topscorer ?

[CaptCanuck]

Not a huge scoring team - but finished 2nd in the PL this past season and have won some 2nd tier cups the past 3 seasons, so a decent side - and my left IF(s) and right W(a) positions have been my leading scorers the past two seasons at least.

Get someone with good off the ball and anticipation, along with the obvious bit of pace and finishing, some aerial skills wouldn't hurt and stick them in an IF position. If you have someone who also has good crossing/passing then use them as a W if it suits. Use someone FM indicates is a striker if his attributes fit. I have 2 guys I'd only play as a W and 5 guys I'd play anywhere along the front 3.

Of course it's not just about the front 3, the midfield and FB/WBs have to all be working together to carve out these chances.

Edit: Sorry I see 4231 now, I play 433/41221, I don't use an AM incase that's what you're including in your '3'.

Edited August 4, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[goranm]

Here is Messi from my save as IF(A). I replaced him with Mbappe RW(A) after retirement. Messi is 4231, Mbappe is 4231 first 4 seasons, then 433 (4141). The blip in goalscoring in 5th season is due to injury. Both were main penalty takers with about 10 to 12 penalties scored per league season.

The AI did a really good job with Rashford at AML (I don't know precisely which role) in a 4231, and from what I can tell, he wasn't their main penalty taker.

Edited August 4, 2020 by goranm

[ThomasHK1979]

52 minutes ago, goranm said:

Here is Messi from my save as IF(A). I replaced him with Mbappe RW(A) after retirement. Messi is 4231, Mbappe is 4231 first 4 seasons, then 433 (4141). The blip in goalscoring in 5th season is due to injury. Both were main penalty takers with about 10 to 12 penalties scored per league season.

The AI did a really good job with Rashford at AML (I don't know precisely which role) in a 4231, and from what I can tell, he wasn't their main penalty taker.

Now that’s the stats I’m looking for. 😃
1) Is your formation a standard 4231?

2) Any personal instructions to Messi and Mbappé?

3) Any special team instructiobs

4) Can you post a screen of your formation, tactic and TI

Thanks a lot 🙏

 

[goranm]

11 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

1) Is your formation a standard 4231?

It was for the first 5 seasons. I couldn't get the AMc to preform, Griezmann was there and once I was able to get rid of him, I switched to 433 with all 3 midfielders preforming great.

11 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

2) Any personal instructions to Messi and Mbappé?

Roam from position, Sit Narrower for Messi, Mark Tighter for Mbappé. Left and Right free kicks went to Messi. In defensive corners, Messi (and then Mbappé) told to stay forward.

11 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

3) Any special team instructiobs

No, nothing particularly special. Positive mentality, balanced in away knockout matches and finals.

Standard tempo, no time wasting, mixed crosses. Play from back, overlaping fullbacks.

Counter-press and nothing else in the transition screen.

Very high defensive line, very high line of engagement, offside trap, max pressing, prevent GK distribution

11 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

4) Can you post a screen of your formation, tactic and TI

I can do that later, but I tweak the roles and instructions every season, but not major changes. This was my 4231 for the first 4 seasons.

DLF (A)

W(A) AM(S) IF(A)

CM(S) DLP(D)

CWB(s) CD(D) BPD(D) WB(s)

SWK(A)

Only the CM(s) had multiple instructions: mark tighter, take more risks, move into channels, sometimes roam from position.

In season 5 I switched the forward to AF as I expected him to become the main goalscorer, which he would had he taken penalties. After that, as I said previously, I didn't like how my midfield preformed so I switched to a 433. The midfield is now

CM(A) AP(s)

REG/DLP(d)

and this works great. I've had my CM(A) (same instructions as for the CM(s) above, including Get Further Forward which is on by default) as player of the season once with 7.97 as well as the REG with 8.01, and currently the REG is looking to be the best player again with 8.25 in 14 matches. Team instructions that I play around with: tempo on low, Creative freedom On, Work Ball into Box on, underlap on one side (with an IWB), attacking mentality sometimes)
 

The AML generally plays well. I've had Griezmann/Fati there initially, then Sane/Fati, now it's Fati/Newgen. Fati at IWL(A), Sane and Griezmann W(A). Sane had the best individual season of the three, Fati the most consistent, and Griezmann was just out of position and I rotated him a lot between AML and AMC.

Overall I like the 433 more, even though the team performance is similar. My best attacking season with 4231: 119 for, 16 against. Best defensive season with 4231: 100 for, 11 ag.

Best attacking season with 433: 123 for, 17 ag. Best defensive season with 433: 106 for, 8 ag.

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by goranm

[ThomasHK1979]

1 hour ago, goranm said:

It was for the first 5 seasons. I couldn't get the AMc to preform, Griezmann was there and once I was able to get rid of him, I switched to 433 with all 3 midfielders preforming great.

Roam from position, Sit Narrower for Messi, Mark Tighter for Mbappé. Left and Right free kicks went to Messi. In defensive corners, Messi (and then Mbappé) told to stay forward.

No, nothing particularly special. Positive mentality, balanced in away knockout matches and finals.

Standard tempo, no time wasting, mixed crosses. Play from back, overlaping fullbacks.

Counter-press and nothing else in the transition screen.

Very high defensive line, very high line of engagement, offside trap, max pressing, prevent GK distribution

I can do that later, but I tweak the roles and instructions every season, but not major changes. This was my 4231 for the first 4 seasons.

DLF (A)

W(A) AM(S) IF(A)

CM(S) DLP(D)

CWB(s) CD(D) BPD(D) WB(s)

SWK(A)

Only the CM(s) had multiple instructions: mark tighter, take more risks, move into channels, sometimes roam from position.

In season 5 I switched the forward to AF as I expected him to become the main goalscorer, which he would had he taken penalties. After that, as I said previously, I didn't like how my midfield preformed so I switched to a 433. The midfield is now

CM(A) AP(s)

REG/DLP(d)

and this works great. I've had my CM(A) (same instructions as for the CM(s) above, including Get Further Forward which is on by default) as player of the season once with 7.97 as well as the REG with 8.01, and currently the REG is looking to be the best player again with 8.25 in 14 matches. Team instructions that I play around with: tempo on low, Creative freedom On, Work Ball into Box on, underlap on one side (with an IWB), attacking mentality sometimes)
 

The AML generally plays well. I've had Griezmann/Fati there initially, then Sane/Fati, now it's Fati/Newgen. Fati at IWL(A), Sane and Griezmann W(A). Sane had the best individual season of the three, Fati the most consistent, and Griezmann was just out of position and I rotated him a lot between AML and AMC.

Overall I like the 433 more, even though the team performance is similar. My best attacking season with 4231: 119 for, 16 against. Best defensive season with 4231: 100 for, 11 ag.

Best attacking season with 433: 123 for, 17 ag. Best defensive season with 433: 106 for, 8 ag.

 

Thanks. Something like this with 4231?

 

[ThomasHK1979]

1 hour ago, goranm said:

It was for the first 5 seasons. I couldn't get the AMc to preform, Griezmann was there and once I was able to get rid of him, I switched to 433 with all 3 midfielders preforming great.

Roam from position, Sit Narrower for Messi, Mark Tighter for Mbappé. Left and Right free kicks went to Messi. In defensive corners, Messi (and then Mbappé) told to stay forward.

No, nothing particularly special. Positive mentality, balanced in away knockout matches and finals.

Standard tempo, no time wasting, mixed crosses. Play from back, overlaping fullbacks.

Counter-press and nothing else in the transition screen.

Very high defensive line, very high line of engagement, offside trap, max pressing, prevent GK distribution

I can do that later, but I tweak the roles and instructions every season, but not major changes. This was my 4231 for the first 4 seasons.

DLF (A)

W(A) AM(S) IF(A)

CM(S) DLP(D)

CWB(s) CD(D) BPD(D) WB(s)

SWK(A)

Only the CM(s) had multiple instructions: mark tighter, take more risks, move into channels, sometimes roam from position.

In season 5 I switched the forward to AF as I expected him to become the main goalscorer, which he would had he taken penalties. After that, as I said previously, I didn't like how my midfield preformed so I switched to a 433. The midfield is now

CM(A) AP(s)

REG/DLP(d)

and this works great. I've had my CM(A) (same instructions as for the CM(s) above, including Get Further Forward which is on by default) as player of the season once with 7.97 as well as the REG with 8.01, and currently the REG is looking to be the best player again with 8.25 in 14 matches. Team instructions that I play around with: tempo on low, Creative freedom On, Work Ball into Box on, underlap on one side (with an IWB), attacking mentality sometimes)
 

The AML generally plays well. I've had Griezmann/Fati there initially, then Sane/Fati, now it's Fati/Newgen. Fati at IWL(A), Sane and Griezmann W(A). Sane had the best individual season of the three, Fati the most consistent, and Griezmann was just out of position and I rotated him a lot between AML and AMC.

Overall I like the 433 more, even though the team performance is similar. My best attacking season with 4231: 119 for, 16 against. Best defensive season with 4231: 100 for, 11 ag.

Best attacking season with 433: 123 for, 17 ag. Best defensive season with 433: 106 for, 8 ag.

 

Or this with 433?

 

[goranm]

4 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Thanks. Something like this with 4231/433?

Yes, pretty much, except:

I don't have Counter on, and I play with low to standard tempo, however higher tempo + counter should go well together.

The only reason why Messi has Roam From Position is because he's Messi. Otherwise no other forward in my team has it. Sometimes I give De Jong/Pogba that permission in CM, otherwise no, not even for Puig or Ilaix (who develop into some of the best midfielders in game).

I don't like Complete Forwards because the description implies that they're the main focus of the team, both for creativity and execution, so everything will go through them. I don't know if that's true or not, but I got far better performances from AF than CF (even though the finishing is still frustrating).

My DM is a Regista only because De Jong is perfect for it. Otherwise I use Tonali as DP(D) and he's also very good in that role.

Milan will probably be my next save once I get bored of Barca.

[ThomasHK1979]

3 hours ago, goranm said:

Yes, pretty much, except:

I don't have Counter on, and I play with low to standard tempo, however higher tempo + counter should go well together.

The only reason why Messi has Roam From Position is because he's Messi. Otherwise no other forward in my team has it. Sometimes I give De Jong/Pogba that permission in CM, otherwise no, not even for Puig or Ilaix (who develop into some of the best midfielders in game).

I don't like Complete Forwards because the description implies that they're the main focus of the team, both for creativity and execution, so everything will go through them. I don't know if that's true or not, but I got far better performances from AF than CF (even though the finishing is still frustrating).

My DM is a Regista only because De Jong is perfect for it. Otherwise I use Tonali as DP(D) and he's also very good in that role.

Milan will probably be my next save once I get bored of Barca.

Thanks. Last questions :-). 
On your team instructions: team width?, run at defence? and pass into space?

And always stay narrow instruction for your IF and IW?

[goranm]

47 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Thanks. Last questions :-). 
On your team instructions: team width?, run at defence? and pass into space?

And always stay narrow instruction for your IF and IW?

Ah, sorry, I forgot about width. I use the default width that comes with the positive mentality, which is Fairly Narrow. I always found the naming of width a bit misleading, since with a pitch of maximum dimension (as mine is), a Fairly Narrow team width will still place players reasonably wide of each other.

No running at defence or passing into space. I want to keep the ball, so with that in mind these instructions, at least as I understand them, would increase the risk of losing the ball. Also, the wide forwards on an attack duty will often by themselves run at the defence, especially if they have Runs With Ball Often PPM, so increasing the rate at which they do that doesn't appeal to me. Similarly with playmakers and a CM that has Take More Risks - they will by themselves attempt to pass into space, especially if they have PPMs like Tries Killer Balls Often.

As you can see, I generally keep things default in terms of roles, and specific behaviour I train with PPMs; if a player already has a certain set of PPMs, I try to match them with an appropriate role.

Stay narrow was only for Messi. An IW will cut inside, and I want that a W goes wide sometimes, especially since in this version W(A) seem to tend to go more into the box. Although, to be honest, I only saw a small change in Messi's average position with Sit Narrow. I could probably have gone without it. Maybe with a team width larger than Fairly Narrow it makes more sense to have that instruction.

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by goranm

[ThomasHK1979]

8 minutes ago, goranm said:

Ah, sorry, I forgot about width. I use the default width that comes with the positive mentality, which is Fairly Narrow. I always found the naming of width a bit misleading, since with a pitch of maximum dimension (as mine is), a Fairly Narrow team width will still place players reasonably wide of each other.

No running at defence or passing into space. I want to keep the ball, so with that in mind these instructions, at least as I understand them, would increase the risk of losing the ball. Also, the wide forwards on an attack duty will often by themselves run at the defence, especially if they have Runs With Ball Often PPM, so increasing the rate at which they do that doesn't appeal to me. Similarly with playmakers and a CM that has Take More Risks - they will by themselves attempt to pass into space, especially if they have PPMs like Tries Killer Balls Often.

As you can see, I generally keep things default in terms of roles, and specific behaviour I train with PPMs; if a player already has a certain set of PPMs, I try to match them with an appropriate role.

Stay narrow was only for Messi. An IW will cut inside, and I want that a W goes wide sometimes, especially since in this version W(A) seem to tend to go more into the box. Although, to be honest, I only saw a small change in Messi's average position with Sit Narrow. I could probably have gone without it. Maybe with a team width larger than Fairly Narrow it makes more sense to have that instruction.

 

Isnt the default on positiv fairly wide?

So you have Messi as a IW in the or IF AMR position, and a Winger in the AMR postion.?

 

 

[goranm]

46 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Isnt the default on positiv fairly wide?

 

You're right, my mistake. It's the default on the Tiki-Taka preset. Anyway, it's Fairly Narrow.

46 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

So you have Messi as a IW in the or IF AMR position, and a Winger in the AMR postion.?

On the right: Messi as IF(A). Mbappe, who replaced him, as W(A).

On the left: Dembele or Fati as IW(A); Griezmann or Sane as W(A).
 

Edited August 5, 2020 by goranm

[ThomasHK1979]

28 minutes ago, goranm said:

You're right, my mistake. It's the default on the Tiki-Taka preset. Anyway, it's Fairly Narrow.

On the right: Messi as IF(A). Mbappe, who replaced him, as W(A).

On the left: Dembele or Fati as IW(A); Griezmann or Sane as W(A).
 

Thanks. This is very usefull. When you have the time, you think you can post a screen of your formation/tactic. Thx.

[ricky2020]

Can u try Messi in the AP or F9, maybe it can take more ATT choices.

[goranm]

12 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Thanks. This is very usefull. When you have the time, you think you can post a screen of your formation/tactic. Thx.

Here is my current 4141 with my best selection. Only the CM(A) has special instructions, you can see them in the screenshot. Here are Possession, Transition, and Out of Possession screens.

When Tonali is rotated for De Jong, his role is DP(D) with Tackle Harder. As soon as he gets a yellow I turn it off.

This season I'm experimenting with More Creative Freedom. So far there are mixed results, I wasn't scoring much (slightly over 2 goals per game) but then in 4 League games in a row I won 5-0, 5-0, 8-0 and 8-0.

For the past 2 seasons I was experimenting with Work Ball Into Box. I'm still not sure if I want it or not, I'll likely remove it because I'm scoring less. By far my best goalscoring season was without it - 123 league + 42 UCL goals. In the last two seasons with WBIB I scored 106+32 and 114+31. But for now I'm keeping it to see how it works together with More Creative Freedom.

This is the first season where I'm playing with CWB's on both sides because the newgen on the left is just exceptional. Alexander-Arnold gets injured a lot so it's CWB on left and WB on right a lot of the time.

I'll do the 4231 a bit later, I have to dig up that save from a different computer.

Edited August 5, 2020 by goranm

[ThomasHK1979]

14 hours ago, goranm said:

Here is my current 4141 with my best selection. Only the CM(A) has special instructions, you can see them in the screenshot. Here are Possession, Transition, and Out of Possession screens.

When Tonali is rotated for De Jong, his role is DP(D) with Tackle Harder. As soon as he gets a yellow I turn it off.

This season I'm experimenting with More Creative Freedom. So far there are mixed results, I wasn't scoring much (slightly over 2 goals per game) but then in 4 League games in a row I won 5-0, 5-0, 8-0 and 8-0.

For the past 2 seasons I was experimenting with Work Ball Into Box. I'm still not sure if I want it or not, I'll likely remove it because I'm scoring less. By far my best goalscoring season was without it - 123 league + 42 UCL goals. In the last two seasons with WBIB I scored 106+32 and 114+31. But for now I'm keeping it to see how it works together with More Creative Freedom.

This is the first season where I'm playing with CWB's on both sides because the newgen on the left is just exceptional. Alexander-Arnold gets injured a lot so it's CWB on left and WB on right a lot of the time.

I'll do the 4231 a bit later, I have to dig up that save from a different computer.

Thanks. Great help!

1) I can see you have personal instructions on your CWBs and on Fati, Mbappe and Haaland?

2) Have you tried with mezzala instead of your CM?

3) When you say you switch off WBIB you mean you dont switch early cross or shoot at sight on instead or just blank ?

4) Im unsure about the overlapping on because i have heard that the WB/FB/CWB will overlap anyway. Ticked on will just mean that the passing tempo will be slowed down because your winger/IF or IW will constantly wait at look for the outside pass. Have you experimenting with this?

Edited August 6, 2020 by ThomasHK1979