Is it even possible to create a plug'n play tactic that works consistently?

[goku4]

I am now in my 7th season with my Norwich City side and it is amazing how all of a sudden, everything can go from the top to the bottom... I am a very experienced FM player and I know that with increasing success, your reputation increases and thus opponents play more cautious. I have already experienced it. I have won the Champions League and FA Cup with Norwich in my 5th year and have been finishing top 3 in my last 4 years. I think I already reached a very high reputation. My problem is that I change my tactic every season and just when I think I found the right settings and starting to dominate home and away, after a certain time, it stops working... It usually begins with still creating as many chances as before but not scoring and after a while the opponents just dominate me. I win against Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal away, but then lose to Inter at home in CL... Can't expalin it with players getting complacent or oppositions playing more carefully against me... Since these wins I mentioned above were when I already had a high reputation... I am currently playing with a wide 4141 and I don't know what to do... It seems like all those guys posting their tactics are save/loading their games to improve their stats. Can't imagine that a single tactic out of this forum can consistently deliver you success...

[Experienced Defender]

Well, this particular section of the tactical forum is not about plug'n'play tactics. P'n'P tactics are shared and discussed in this section. So you can take a look there if you want 

I personally never use plug'n'play tactics, simply because they are not my cup of tea (assuming that by plug'n'play you refer to tactics than never ever need to be tweaked even in the slightest). But from what I've heard from people using those tactics, some of them are extremely successful, even though they don't make any sense in terms of real-life football logic.

Now, the only question is whether you want to download such a tactic from some of the famous PnP tactic creators (such as knap, TFF and the like) or you want to create it yourself. 

 

[goku4]

9 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, this particular section of the tactical forum is not about plug'n'play tactics. P'n'P tactics are shared and discussed in this section. So you can take a look there if you want 

I personally never use plug'n'play tactics, simply because they are not my cup of tea (assuming that by plug'n'play you refer to tactics than never ever need to be tweaked even in the slightest). But from what I've heard from people using those tactics, some of them are extremely successful, even though they don't make any sense in terms of real-life football logic.

Now, the only question is whether you want to download such a tactic from some of the famous PnP tactic creators (such as knap, TFF and the like) or you want to create it yourself. 

 

Hi, first of all, sry for posting in the wrong section. Thought that section you recommended was only for the purpose of publishing something ready and not discussing about mechanics. To your last question: I want to create my own one. Don't like to play with tactics created by others. For me, FM is much more about creating a plug and play I can play with until the rest of the FM season. I managed to do it in FM 11 and 12 but since the tactic table does not exist, I had difficulties to adjust to the player roles etc... Should I open a new thread in the right section or is it possible to move this one to the other section?

[ReadingFan82]

11 minutes ago, goku4 said:

I am now in my 7th season with my Norwich City side and it is amazing how all of a sudden, everything can go from the top to the bottom... I am a very experienced FM player and I know that with increasing success, your reputation increases and thus opponents play more cautious. I have already experienced it. I have won the Champions League and FA Cup with Norwich in my 5th year and have been finishing top 3 in my last 4 years. I think I already reached a very high reputation. My problem is that I change my tactic every season and just when I think I found the right settings and starting to dominate home and away, after a certain time, it stops working... It usually begins with still creating as many chances as before but not scoring and after a while the opponents just dominate me. I win against Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal away, but then lose to Inter at home in CL... Can't expalin it with players getting complacent or oppositions playing more carefully against me... Since these wins I mentioned above were when I already had a high reputation... I am currently playing with a wide 4141 and I don't know what to do... It seems like all those guys posting their tactics are save/loading their games to improve their stats. Can't imagine that a single tactic out of this forum can consistently deliver you success...

I don't think there is any tactic of any sort that is going to be consistently successful on this years match engine, as you've said. It consistently tweaks and adapts to counter whatever your team is doing at whatever point. While it can be frustrating, after a while the game would become too easy and boring to a lot of people if you could just have 1 tactic that consistently works really well no matter who against, who's in your team and anything else involved. I don't think the game is built in a way now that allows for one super overpowered tactic to get you consistent success over a number of years anymore, it makes you tweak and change and adapt to everything that is going on in your save.

I think one of the things that frustrates me, you might feel similar, is that since a lot of people use just key highlights and extensive highlights a lot of the time you can't really see what is going so wrong with your team at any given time for most of the game, only a few minutes here and there with the key events of said game.

I would also say that whatever your doing can't be too far of the mark if you've beaten all of those teams away from home. Losing at home to Inter isn't fantastic of course but there's a lot of fine margins in football as well. You are bound to lose games at some point, it is not really possible in this game, or IRL, to expect to win every single game throughout a season, you'll win some you maybe didn't think you would and maybe lose some you didn't think you would as well. If your striving for complete perfection, your always going to leave disappointed. 

Morale and things like that are also very important on this game. You could have a great tactic with a great team but if they're unhappy or you have poor team cohesion then you probably still won't get too far unless stuff like that gets sorted.

I'd also add that when changing your tactic every season that it could be more effective to just tweak 1 or 2 things here and there instead of a wholesale change as it seems like you might be suggesting that you do. If that's not what you meant with that point then apologies, but could be an idea.

I also don't know the players you have, the tactic, etc etc but if your having an issue putting the ball in the net it could be the forwards finishing and things like that. You could have a 4* striker who looks to be a worldy but if they have 12 finishing or something like that they could have serious issues with actually putting the ball into the back of the net.

On the topic of the tactic testers saving and reloading I'm not too sure on that. I'm sure that there are some that do of course, but my main issue with them is how they only use certain teams and for a certain length of time. They tend to only really use top top teams, Liverpool and the like, and often only for 1 season. I'd love to see one tested with a lower down team in the league and have consistent success over the period of a 3/4 seasons, because I have a sneaky suspicion that the wheels could well fall off at some point, as the AI adjusts to increasing reputation and the like. A lot of them also holiday through there save with their tactic, and I don't know if that has an effect but sometimes I do doubt that they would have done so well using the tactic game in game out, but that might just be me.

[FMunderachiever]

The fact that plug and play is hard to achieve is a good thing, because it totally defeats the point of a realistic management simulation and renders 95% of the game pointless. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Experienced Defender
inappropriate parts edited out

[goku4]

1 hour ago, FMunderachiever said:

The fact that plug and play is hard to achieve is a good thing, because it totally defeats the point of a realistic management simulation and renders 95% of the game pointless

It's a PC game mate, it has nothing to do with realism. If this game was a little bit realistic, the match engine would have allowed more than a way to play. Besides, I don't care how you play, I have fun playing the way I am. Also is it more fun when you finish all of a sudden notice that half way in the season your tactic does not work and you start trying out something different and just give up the league? And same thing occurs next season as well. Unless you don't buy all the wonderkids, its frustrating when you have a good run and all of a sudden you have to change lots of things to not lose all the progress of that one brilliant season. 

[ReadingFan82]

1 hour ago, FMunderachiever said:

The fact that plug and play is hard to achieve is a good thing, because it totally defeats the point of a realistic management simulation and renders 95% of the game pointless

In fairness I do think a lot of people view this purely as a game, something they play for enjoyment. There's a section of people who play this game who don't really care too much for the realism of the simulation and just kinda wanna have fun with without it being too difficult or stressful playing the game. I've had times myself were going onto this game in my free time became a tad like a chore due to how difficult at points this game decides to be via the mechanics of it, particularly with the ever adapting match engine. I think people who want to take a non-league club to the prem or to the cl who want to plug in a tactic that will get them success for their aims shouldn't be policed by other members of the community, after all, it is just a game, people can play it however they want. This years edition more than ever has an adaptable match engine, that adapt and tweaks over time to whatever your team is set up to do in game, meaning that a lot of these plug n play tactics are redundant after a while anyway.

A person in that mindset might find it very enjoyable to take Soutport from the the vanarama national to the prem because they enjoy the story of it, the signing and development of players, buying low to sell high, and so on. I myself really enjoy transfers and scouting on this game the most, I enjoy taking a player from eastern Europe or from south america and watching them develop from a youngster into a world beater and enjoy the process of player development and the stories that can be created within the game. Is it not fun to take a lower league side to highs they've never been to before, even if you know it might not be all of your doing? I'd still say that'd be quite an enjoyable experience in this game in my opinion at least, especially when factoring in all the other aspects of the things you can do on this game.

I'd disagree that 95% of the game is tactics from my experience with it, due to how you need to manage scouting, transfers, training, and a lot of other things not mentioned. I also have a point on the idea that these unrealistic tactics break the game so to speak. That's more on the fault of SI than any individual player in my opinion. It's their job to make sure that there are no huge flaws in the game, as if there is it is clear people will exploit. If the match engine, made by SI, cannot counter the unrealistic tactic's, its not the players fault, but the games. I know its cliche but don't hate the player, hate the game.

There's not really a genuine alternative to FM either, at least one that is as in depth and enjoyable as it. There's a few other managing games but they're nowhere near as good, and F*fa just isn't a lot of peoples cup of tea due to how poor the simulation aspect of career mode is on it.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, goku4 said:

Should I open a new thread in the right section or is it possible to move this one to the other section?

I can move it to that other section, but given how this discussion is developing, there is no need for that. So it can remain here 

[goku4]

16 minutes ago, ReadingFan82 said:

In fairness I do think a lot of people view this purely as a game, something they play for enjoyment. There's a section of people who play this game who don't really care too much for the realism of the simulation and just kinda wanna have fun with without it being too difficult or stressful playing the game. I've had times myself were going onto this game in my free time became a tad like a chore due to how difficult at points this game decides to be via the mechanics of it, particularly with the ever adapting match engine. I think people who want to take a non-league club to the prem or to the cl who want to plug in a tactic that will get them success for their aims shouldn't be policed by other members of the community, after all, it is just a game, people can play it however they want. This years edition more than ever has an adaptable match engine, that adapt and tweaks over time to whatever your team is set up to do in game, meaning that a lot of these plug n play tactics are redundant after a while anyway.

A person in that mindset might find it very enjoyable to take Soutport from the the vanarama national to the prem because they enjoy the story of it, the signing and development of players, buying low to sell high, and so on. I myself really enjoy transfers and scouting on this game the most, I enjoy taking a player from eastern Europe or from south america and watching them develop from a youngster into a world beater and enjoy the process of player development and the stories that can be created within the game. Is it not fun to take a lower league side to highs they've never been to before, even if you know it might not be all of your doing? I'd still say that'd be quite an enjoyable experience in this game in my opinion at least, especially when factoring in all the other aspects of the things you can do on this game.

I'd disagree that 95% of the game is tactics from my experience with it, due to how you need to manage scouting, transfers, training, and a lot of other things not mentioned. I also have a point on the idea that these unrealistic tactics break the game so to speak. That's more on the fault of SI than any individual player in my opinion. It's their job to make sure that there are no huge flaws in the game, as if there is it is clear people will exploit. If the match engine, made by SI, cannot counter the unrealistic tactic's, its not the players fault, but the games. I know its cliche but don't hate the player, hate the game.

There's not really a genuine alternative to FM either, at least one that is as in depth and enjoyable as it. There's a few other managing games but they're nowhere near as good, and F*fa just isn't a lot of peoples cup of tea due to how poor the simulation aspect of career mode is on it.

Very well written mate! I am playing this game since FM 2010. Back then I liked it a lot when you could tweak any single detail on the tactic table. These player roles and new tactic system have unfortunately made it more and more impossible to get a consisten tactic. If the match engine was way more flexible and there was some form of realism, I would have understood the comment above. But unfortunately, it is not realistic and the match engine is absolutely rigged. It only favors one style of play. That is high attacking mentality and gegenpressing. So I am currently trying to create something on my own that gives me a consistent result. I am not expecting to create something which I can win the league with in the first season with lower sides in the prem. But I want to create something that gives me better results the better my team becomes. That's why I asked whether this is possible... Its so frustrating, finishing the first half of the season at the top and you notice after 3-4 consecutive losses, that tactic is not working anymore. This is often too late as the league has already been gone by then... How can we at least anticipate that the tactic is not going to work soon? That would be also helpful to prevent a series of losses...

[Experienced Defender]

29 minutes ago, ReadingFan82 said:

I also have a point on the idea that these unrealistic tactics break the game so to speak. That's more on the fault of SI than any individual player in my opinion. It's their job to make sure that there are no huge flaws in the game, as if there is it is clear people will exploit. If the match engine, made by SI, cannot counter the unrealistic tactic's, its not the players fault, but the games. I know its cliche but don't hate the player, hate the game

[Experienced Defender]

@FMunderachiever @goku4 I had to remove (edit out) inappropriate parts from both comments in which you needlessly argued with each other. I do appreciate that FMU was the one who started the argument by virtue of his comment, but your (goku4) reaction was a bit over the line as well. 

Everyone has the right to play the game the way they like. Therefore, I as a mod am not going to allow anyone to lecture other people on what is "right" or "wrong" in that regard.

Please keep the discussion civilized, because otherwise I'll have no other choice but to lock the thread.

Thank you.

[FMunderachiever]

2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

@FMunderachiever @goku4 I had to remove (edit out) inappropriate parts from both comments in which you needlessly argued with each other. I do appreciate that FMU was the one who started the argument by virtue of his comment, but your (goku4) reaction was a bit over the line as well. 

Everyone has the right to play the game the way they like. Therefore, I as a mod am not going to allow anyone to lecture other people on what is "right" or "wrong" in that regard.

Please keep the discussion civilized, because otherwise I'll have no other choice but to lock the thread.

Thank you.

Thats fine got no problem with that, i didnt intend to offend and if i knew my post was going to offend, i wouldnt have posted it

[goku4]

12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

@FMunderachiever @goku4 I had to remove (edit out) inappropriate parts from both comments in which you needlessly argued with each other. I do appreciate that FMU was the one who started the argument by virtue of his comment, but your (goku4) reaction was a bit over the line as well. 

Everyone has the right to play the game the way they like. Therefore, I as a mod am not going to allow anyone to lecture other people on what is "right" or "wrong" in that regard.

Please keep the discussion civilized, because otherwise I'll have no other choice but to lock the thread.

Thank you.

Sry for my harsh tone. Should not take it so personally. Everything ok. Hope we get a good discussion going on here.

[Jtomsett11]

I'm still playing on FM19, so my thoughts are only regarding that game, but having played one long term save (10 years+) with plug and play and one with my own tactics (and a lot of reading forum posts/ guides) I find this debate really interesting.

I have struggled to create my own tactics from about FM10 onwards, and started using downloads which generally won me everything. The problem with that is I then expect my own tactics to also be as good and get incredibly frustrated with not always knowing the answer/ solving problems that arise.

My most recent save, following dafuge challenge (but haven't posted as started late this year so a while year behind) I felt I'd created my own plug and play having only changed a few things from season 1-8 when I made it into the prem. However, in hindsight I had altered things each season, just very subtly as players improved and certain roles became more viable to use. Additionally each year I'd hugely outperformed until Jan/ Feb and then struggled over the line to win the league/ promotion. My incredibly low reputation also helped as teams left me lots of space to exploit. Still, there was probably 3 seasons where I made no changes at all when I went from League 2- promotion from championship where I really thought I'd created a plug and play. 

Success in the prem has led to much greater changes as I have to work really hard to create space. In season 12 now I'm in the pack hunting for the title but never really feel I'm 100% with my tactics. I'm having to watch a lot more games on full/ comprehensive highlights to actually see what's going on.

This contrasts drastically to using a plug and play, where I literally only ever made substitutions and varied the tactic slightly for away games (at the start of season 1 then didn't alter again). Every now and then I'd lost 3-0 to bottom of the league who played 4-2-4, something which the tactic couldn't get to grips with. However I went from bottom division to champions League and multiple League wins without buying a single player. I'm not sure which save I've enjoyed more, as I find my current save much more stressful, but it's definitely more rewarding for me personally.

To answer the original question: if you know the flaws of the match engine, the roles that are overpowered when abused, and are prepared to test a tactic before using it, it is possible to create a plug and play. It is likely you'd have to mirror large amounts of features of current 'plug and play' tactics.

Sometimes I do wish my current tactic was as 'plug and play' as the first 8 seasons (and 3 back to back promotion seasons in particular) made it feel like! In reality I don't put enough time and testing in to create a truly plug and play tactic.

[Impacto]

I would argue this is a good thing. I had to force myself to switch tactics constantly to keep a save fresh... 

I've never had to change a winning tactic because it stopped working. Most of the time it was because I needed some fresh stuff in the save. And I am not talking about game-breaking tactics either, just good, effective common sense tactics that play good football. I don't have much experience with FM 20, is this a new thing? Or is it just the old reputation adaptability at play here. As far as I know the AI does not adapt you your tactic, just to your reputation. 

As far as plug and play, anyone can play however they want. I've used cheaty tactics to see how crazy the game can get. Hell, I even had a 20 year journeyman save with the op 3 strikers trying to see how much trophies I could win. I ended up instant resulting 90% of the seasons and to my surprise it was so much fun!  Getting a village striker with 10 finishing scoring hattricks agains PSG is amusing, can't lie. 

I've won many leagues by doing my own tactics and now I am at the phase of just enjoying the game. Currently I enjoy testing out real world tactics and making them work in FM with different teams. It's so much fun when you get your team to play like peak Barcelona or Sacchi's Milan and I don't care if I made the tactic or not. 

[sporadicsmiles]

Why would plug and play tactics be something that exists in the game? For all that you said FM is a game, it is a simulation game that tries to replicate football as closely as possible. With varying degrees of success over the years. And the point of a simulation game is to make it fun while making it realistic. So the game is not real time, but you can play 5 years in a single day if you so wished. So realism is scrapped in some areas to make the game playable. 

What plug and play tactics indicate is that there is a glaring flaw in the match AI. Which can be exploited. And as the game evolve these become less common. Which is also a good thing, although almost every year there are tactics that "break" the ME and allow you success. 

In general plug and play should not work. Playing against Manchester United and FC United of Manchester (at the start of the game) should require a different approach. In general all teams will play differently, and have different players. Which means no match will be exactly the same. There are obvious limitations to this if you play enough, because of limitations of computer programming, but still. The tactic that will excel against a packed defence is not likely to be the same as the one that will do well against a team going all out attack against you. It takes some adaption. As it should. And let us also mention the notion of luck, which plays a huge part in football, it being a low scoring game. 

Now having said that, I am not saying you need to radical change your setup every single game to get results. This is not really needed. When I play I have a system that I use, and everything else is a variation on that theme. Changing some player roles or duties to exploit weaknesses or counter threats specific to that team. To exploit things I have noticed in during a match. Very rarely do I have to utterly change my formation or even my style. I do on occasion have specific tactics to counter specific teams based on experience. But that is the exception rather than the rule. 

The beauty of this is there are almost unlimited ways to set up a base tactic around which you build. To achieve a different style, or make the most of the players you have. I did not even mention players but squad building is also key. FM is not a matter of buying the best players, it is a matter of buying the best players for your style of play. Which is another reason that stop plug and play tactics from really being a thing. 

[crusadertsar]

@sporadicsmiles

With all due respect, you might want to reconsider something about plugandplay tactics and this game. You don't need to make any changes at all. The guy in this thread went on 72 game winning streak against all kinds of opposition. And most of his roles were in attack duty with almost all team instructions ticked. Almost makes you wonder why bother creating a logical tactic when the game rewards this approach.

 

[crusadertsar]

So definitely it's seems that more than ever there is something to exploit. @goku4 if you are looking how to break the game, maybe you should read up on that thread.

[Experienced Defender]

43 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

most of his roles were in attack duty with almost all team instructions ticked. Almost makes you wonder why bother creating a logical tactic when the game rewards this approach

The problem is that you can try to create a tactic based on these same (basically "exploit-ish") principles - attack duties everywhere and all instructions ticked - and it may still fail to work. Because plug'n'play/exploit tactics are about more than just that. You need to find that key element that actually makes the tactic break the ME. 

In other words, not every such tactic is necessarily a plug'n'play. Many people have been trying to create tactics based on (and modeled after) successful p'n'p tactics from famous pnp creators, and they nevertheless failed, ending up with very unsuccessful tactics instead. 

[Experienced Defender]

Basically, all comes down to which approach to tactics creation makes you enjoy the game most. Some people enjoy going the plug'n'play way, others (like myself) enjoy a completely different approach. But whichever one you opt for, it does not mean that others are illegitimate or by any means wrong. Live and let live (or play and let play) 

[sporadicsmiles]

17 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

@sporadicsmiles

With all due respect, you might want to reconsider something about plugandplay tactics and this game. You don't need to make any changes at all. The guy in this thread went on 72 game winning streak against all kinds of opposition. And most of his roles were in attack duty with almost all team instructions ticked. Almost makes you wonder why bother creating a logical tactic when the game rewards this approach.

 

Fair enough, I do not really follow such things in any case, so apparently I am woefully ignorant of what actually can be done. If I can get a humblebrag in here, I went 2 seasons undefeated in the league with Milan (after 2 seasons of squad building) without using any exploits. I guess these things are possible however you approach the game. 

In the end, I still think there is a good point in making well thought out tactics. The main one being that it is how I get enjoyment from the game. If I am winning every game easily it is boring. It is like playing an F1 game with all the drivers on 0%. Sure, I will win, but it is not fun. Besides, I can avoid the scramble at the start of every cycle as players try to find the new set of exploits that will work. It is one of the reason I have stopped playing with the 451 possession with intent thing I wrote about a while back. While there was good football reasons for my setup, in the end it felt like I was just exploiting the AI and how it was programmed. Which meant I could just leave the game to run and I would win, against much stronger teams, playing in a way that I would be able to bust in about 5 minutes were I to face the same tactic. There is no enjoyment for me there. I guess it depends on where your enjoyment comes from. Just winning everything with minimal input, or winning whilst feeling like you earned it somehow. There is no right or wrong answer to that either. 

I still think ultimately the best ME would be one where there are no exploits. Where you have to proceed by logic. FM20 definitely was not that. I really dislike the ME despite being successful in it. I suspect we will never get to that point until the ME code is entirely overhauled. But that is a different story. 

[Impacto]

Well, why don't you just create or follow a philosophy and carry it over every new FM edition? Like Total Football for example. You'll just have to make slight adjustments depending on your team and situation. And because every year the ME is a bit different, the results will vary. And I think that's a good thing. Not knowing that you're always going to achieve what you want in a save is key to actually playing it. This what I used to do before I decided to just try out real world tactcis and incorporate them into my saves.

On FM 08 I was always using a variation of 4-4-2 with mostly attacking elements. I always had a strong forward paired with a fast and technical one. On FM 10 onwards I favoured the 4-2-3-1 approach, with a number 10 being key and the striker always being pacey. It was direct system, not focused on possession, but on quick transitions and ball movement instead. I carried this all the way to FM 15 and I had great success, winning almost any trophies possible. I never even looked up any tactics, mine was working just fine.

Then I finally upgraded to FM 18. I fired up a save, did my usual tactic and I started winning most of my games with Arsenal, with Danny Welbeck and Theo Walcott playing like Ronaldo and Messi on each respective side. I knew I was gonna win the League and CL soon so I lost interest. And I realised I'm a bit bored seeing my teams play the same way year after year. 

I tried different stuff after that on many saves and they mostly worked, but nothing was close to my favourite direct-attacking approach. One day I was searching for some fun, but not game breaking tactics to play. I found Ozil's threads and I've followed them ever since. I use the base of his tactics, because they make sense and they replicate very well the original real world ideas. I used the Wenger's Invincibles tactic when I want direct-approach. It works universally once you you understand it with many different teams, because the football concepts are sound. Now I use his Total Football, because in my save I have loads of technical players and I want to play sexy football. It plays very differently than my own tactics and I like that, because I get bored easily. I want to see and try different stuff. 

So today I have 4 or 5 sounds concepts that I can use depending on what team I manage. I consider them Plug and Play because I can set them up in 2 minutes as I know exactly what I want with them. Some of them I created myself, some of them I looked up and perfected to suit the team and ME needs, some of them I didn't even touch and they work just fine. Not game-breaking, just fun. 

TL;DR - Yes it is. How succesfull it will be depends on the ME, but if the basics are sound, it will work to an extend.