Pirates having A headache...

[philly_flyer10]

A few people will buy if they can't get the cracked version to work

I dont get this, "oh the game is full of bugs, I think Ill go out and buy it".

No they wont, ironically if SI did put in any triggers, that would actually cut sales from people who try before they buy.

Remember its a fact that people who download music buy more CDs than people who dont download music.

[Up_The_Terriers]

I'm far from supporting or defending piracy, and I would be surprised if you can find a single post from me where I'm doing that. This all started by someone saying that we should stop using the term pirate in this thread and start saying thief instead. Then I simply told him that there is a difference in the definition of thief and pirate. Lots of people seem to disagree, which is why I've been trying to show people that there truly is a difference.

My apologies..... I mis-read your earlier post.

I am still in disagreement with you regarding whether pirates are or are not thieves, and I've yet to see anyone explain how the example I used of reducing royalties by unauthorised publication could be considered as anything other than theft (and therefore by extention software piracy should be considered the same since it also directly reduces the amount of royalties the developers receive).

Anyway, once again, my apologies for mis-reading your post and for any insult I may have caused you as a result.

[GillsMan]

Remember its a fact that people who download music buy more CDs than people who dont download music.

Where is this fact quoted please?

(I'm not necessarily doubting the veracity of your claim, it's just that I've never heard this before, which if it was a fact I'm sure I'd have heard this before given my interest in this subject. Not saying you're making it up, but I'd be interested to know where you've heard this).

[RDXCougar8173]

i`ve heard the same thing but somebody told me that most people download the cd they like the sound of or a cd by a peticular singer/songwriter then if they like theyll go buy the original cd and get rid of the downloaded version

[Kris]

I dont get this, "oh the game is full of bugs, I think Ill go out and buy it".

No they wont, ironically if SI did put in any triggers, that would actually cut sales from people who try before they buy.

Remember its a fact that people who download music buy more CDs than people who dont download music.

Hardly fact, unless you can show scientific studies to prove otherwise (and Mr Geist doesn't count Im afraid ).

The attraction of dowloaders buying a cd is that they can "rip" the music into whatever losless format they want (as the majority of pirated music is in a lossy format).

No such attraction with software so its a bit pointless to compare.

Gubbs : How is the fact that 25% of your userbase not contributing to revenue "moot"?

[djwilko6]

I dont get this, "oh the game is full of bugs, I think Ill go out and buy it".

No they wont, ironically if SI did put in any triggers, that would actually cut sales from people who try before they buy.

Remember its a fact that people who download music buy more CDs than people who dont download music.

I think you're right, people who download music certainly do buy more BLANK CD's than people who don't.

[Hamselv]

My apologies..... I mis-read your earlier post.

I am still in disagreement with you regarding whether pirates are or are not thieves, and I've yet to see anyone explain how the example I used of reducing royalties by unauthorised publication could be considered as anything other than theft (and therefore by extention software piracy should be considered the same since it also directly reduces the amount of royalties the developers receive).

Anyway, once again, my apologies for mis-reading your post and for any insult I may have caused you as a result.

Don't worry about it. I'm not easily offended and didn't really see it as particularly harsh, just as something where I needed to explain my previous point a little clearer. I think all of us read these posts rather quickly, so it's easy to sometimes make the wrong assumptions.

I have seen before that if I write the word "pirate" without adding either "death row", "lethal injection" or at least "should be shot", then I sometimes end up needing to defend myself a little

I was also being rather critical about the DRM even before the game was released, and that meant more or less being accused of being a pirate, since some people felt that unless I was going to pirate the game, then there was no reason to not love DRM. The DRM has some insight features that can report information back to SI, and if I wasn't a pirate then there's no way I could not like that either because, and I quote: "it's not like there's anything you're trying to hide, right?" Luckily after all the problems on release day a few more people seem to now agree with me that DRM is not a good thing.

So as you can see, considering what else I've seen on these forums, you have nothing to apologize for

Regarding piracy not being theft then that's simply based on how the law defines theft. I guess one reason might also be that there's no proof that someone pirating the game would have ever spent money on it. I think most software/gaming/music/movie companies tend to believe that one download equals one lost sale, and I believe that's very far from being the truth.

I think you're right, people who download music certainly do buy more BLANK CD's than people who don't.

That I believe, even without any kind of further proof

[Elio Rodriguez]

I can't believe people still feel that ban was harsh! And people who admit to piracy to incur infraction points - just not as many as when you admit to piracy of SI products - seems fairly logical to me.

I do, under the circumtances that was admited and since that post I haven´t see SI give any information to those who want buy the game legally and they can´t becouse its not been sell in theyr countries.

and by the way if SI is by principle againts piracy should be for all piracy not only when is for your own convinience.

[GillsMan]

I do, under the circumtances that was admited and since that post I haven´t see SI give any information to those who want buy the game legally and they can´t becouse its not been sell in theyr countries.

and by the way if SI is by principle againts piracy should be for all piracy not only when is for your own convinience.

But where do we draw the line? The guy says he was unable to get hold of it so pirated it. What about people who can't afford the game so pirate it, do we allow them to do so as well?

And we are against all piracy. It's just that piracy of SI products is obviously dealt with harsher.

[looknohands]

But where do we draw the line? The guy says he was unable to get hold of it so pirated it. What about people who can't afford the game so pirate it, do we allow them to do so as well?

And we are against all piracy. It's just that piracy of SI products is obviously dealt with harsher.

In this case, I would hope that SI, instead of issuing a blanket ban (which you have every right to do so) would attempt to contact the member to learn more about why he/she is having difficulty purchasing the game, with a remedy hopefully being possible. It doesn't seem to make much sense to drive potential customers away when something good could come out of it. That brings me to my next point: it's absurd to think that you can stop, much less prevent piracy. To focus inordinate amounts of time/energy on trying to delay the release of pirated copies is a waste of resources...rather, it may be more profitable in the long-term to discover ways of inducing the current pirate into becoming a future purchaser. Things like having customers send in a copy of their receipt or proof-of-purchase in return for random prizes, or exclusive sections of the forum, etc. may gave incentive to pirates to purchase a legit product. Just a thought.

[philly_flyer10]

Hardly fact, unless you can show scientific studies to prove otherwise (and Mr Geist doesn't count Im afraid ).

The attraction of dowloaders buying a cd is that they can "rip" the music into whatever losless format they want (as the majority of pirated music is in a lossy format).

No such attraction with software so its a bit pointless to compare.

Gubbs : How is the fact that 25% of your userbase not contributing to revenue "moot"?

Here you go. All of the studies Ive seen prove it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1149417.ece

http://www.pch.gc.ca/pc-ch/pubs/music_industry/tdm_e.cfm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4718249.stm

The BBC one says they spend 4.5 times more on cds than the average fan.

[Kris]

Its not as though SI can persuade the users local government to speed up the adding of valid currency to his credit card.

There has to be a line between helping customers and where the resources dedicated to such a response would far outweigh the result (if any, in this case none) could be achieved.

[Kris]

Here you go. All of the studies Ive seen prove it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1149417.ece

http://www.pch.gc.ca/pc-ch/pubs/music_industry/tdm_e.cfm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4718249.stm

The BBC one says they spend 4.5 times more on cds than the average fan.

One report from 2003 , one from 2005 and one instigated by Mr Geist?

i assume you didnt respond to my point about people downloading music buying the cd because they can then "rip" into a higher quality format, and that this has no comparison to software because........?

Point is simple, when it comes to the software industry, people who do pirate material wouldnt buy the product no matter what the cost is lowered to.

Software pirates will pirate the goods because they can, there is no incentive to purchase a legit product.

[Hamselv]

it may be more profitable in the long-term to discover ways of inducing the current pirate into becoming a future purchaser. Things like having customers send in a copy of their receipt or proof-of-purchase in return for random prizes, or exclusive sections of the forum, etc. may gave incentive to pirates to purchase a legit product. Just a thought.

That's what they are trying to do with the FM Club.

[Neil Brock]

Here you go. All of the studies Ive seen prove it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1149417.ece

http://www.pch.gc.ca/pc-ch/pubs/music_industry/tdm_e.cfm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4718249.stm

The BBC one says they spend 4.5 times more on cds than the average fan.

That research has to be the biggest load of tripe I've possibly ever read.

[Elio Rodriguez]

I can't believe people still feel that ban was harsh! And people who admit to piracy to incur infraction points - just not as many as when you admit to piracy of SI products - seems fairly logical to me.

But where do we draw the line? The guy says he was unable to get hold of it so pirated it. What about people who can't afford the game so pirate it, do we allow them to do so as well?

And we are against all piracy. It's just that piracy of SI products is obviously dealt with harsher.

GillsMan - what I am say its SI instead of try to offer a solution just ban the guy. I' am telling you this becouse in this case that user recognise that he's been use piracy copies of fm2008 becouse he just can't get the game legally, cose issues in the county he live, and I can tell you something more he´s a huge fan of the game and its been gaming the fm 2009 demo about 4 or 5 times already frustred that he cannot get the original game. I am a big fan too since the very first CM but I dont play the game since FM2007 becouse of the same situacion. I know this becouse he's my brother.

by the way excuse any gramatical error, my english its no perfect.

[scouse9976]

By all accounts, the pirated versions avaible atm are full of bugs, dont work properly, kick you out after one season..and so on.

Has DRM succeded? at least for now..

from varoius torrents.

hahahaha

dont talk crap i know loads of people with the cracked verson and its proper not the demo and they dont get sacked after 1 season

[GillsMan]

GillsMan - what I am say its SI instead of try to offer a solution just ban the guy. I' am telling you this becouse in this case that user recognise that he's been use piracy copies of fm2008 becouse he just can't get the game legally, cose issues in the county he live, and I can tell you something more he´s a huge fan of the game and its been gaming the fm 2009 demo about 4 or 5 times already frustred that he cannot get the original game. I am a big fan too since the very first CM but I dont play the game since FM2007 becouse of the same situacion. I know this becouse he's my brother.

by the way excuse any gramatical error, my english its no perfect.

Had the guy had problems with getting old of FM, he should have contacted Sega directly to see what his options were instead of pirating it. Had he done that first, I could maybe have a little more sympathy.

Your English is good, by the way.

[GillsMan]

dont talk crap i know loads of people with the cracked verson and its proper not the demo and they dont get sacked after 1 season

It's merely a demo extender. So it doesn't have full functionality at all.

[Kris]

GillsMan - what I am say its SI instead of try to offer a solution just ban the guy. I' am telling you this becouse in this case that user recognise that he's been use piracy copies of fm2008 becouse he just can't get the game legally, cose issues in the county he live, and I can tell you something more he´s a huge fan of the game and its been gaming the fm 2009 demo about 4 or 5 times already frustred that he cannot get the original game. I am a big fan too since the very first CM but I dont play the game since FM2007 becouse of the same situacion. I know this becouse he's my brother.

by the way excuse any gramatical error, my english its no perfect.

Brother.. of course...

Dont register any more alias accounts as we'll merely ban them and keep informing your ISP of violation of our ToS.

[GillsMan]

Brother.. of course...

Dont register any more alias accounts as we'll merely ban them and keep informing your ISP of violation of our ToS.

I wondered!

[sjm]

People who download music might well buy more music simply because they're more into their music. (And people not that into their music probably neither download nor buy much.) Doesn't sound like rocket science to me.

Not saying it's true or not, just giving a plausible explanation.

[Markus]

That research has to be the biggest load of tripe I've possibly ever read.

There were a study in Sweden last year that said, that people who download music and movies are

those that goes to the cinema the most and those who buy the most CD's. Some people do want to know

if the thing that they buy is good or not. With todays prices I can understand them to some point.

[saberhagen83]

One report from 2003 , one from 2005 and one instigated by Mr Geist?

i assume you didnt respond to my point about people downloading music buying the cd because they can then "rip" into a higher quality format, and that this has no comparison to software because........?

Point is simple, when it comes to the software industry, people who do pirate material wouldnt buy the product no matter what the cost is lowered to.

Software pirates will pirate the goods because they can, there is no incentive to purchase a legit product.

There are plenty more studies and reports such as those. Living in Sweden, which has plenty p2p piracy and is a very hot topic atm, I have seen very similair reports in the papers. And I do know plenty enough who actually pirate stuff. Most (obviously not all) do buy stuff they enjoy and it covers all media wheter it's music, movies or games.

And why on earth would someone just buy a cd and rip it in order to get better sound?! MP3 you can get a hold of on the net is of the same quality, or slightly less if you have a really good stereo. The only reason a pirate would buy it is cause he/she enjoy it, no other reason really.

That research has to be the biggest load of tripe I've possibly ever read.

Uhm...why? Makes logic sense, really. When you think about that you can get anything, from anywhere from anytime (except the future I guess ) right into your PC without problem. In all honesty you should be able to find a lot more music (in this case) that you like and have never heard of before. You aren't going to buy something before you know what it is after all.

It's merely a demo extender. So it doesn't have full functionality at all.

Really? Seems it's working fine from what I hear. All leagues, full database and no "bugs" encounterd. The only function it doesn't have is the holiday thing, but who would care?

[Hamselv]

It's merely a demo extender. So it doesn't have full functionality at all.

I keep reading that around here, but everywhere else I look, they are telling quite a different story (except the well known missing holiday option). Is there actual proof to support that claim or is that just the official answer?

If it is true, then it would make the DRM slightly more acceptable to me, since it would show that at least in some aspects the DRM is working.

[Kris]

There are plenty more studies and reports such as those. Living in Sweden, which has plenty p2p piracy and is a very hot topic atm, I have seen very similair reports in the papers. And I do know plenty enough who actually pirate stuff. Most (obviously not all) do buy stuff they enjoy and it covers all media wheter it's music, movies or games.

And why on earth would someone just buy a cd and rip it in order to get better sound?! MP3 you can get a hold of on the net is of the same quality, or slightly less if you have a really good stereo. The only reason a pirate would buy it is cause he/she enjoy it, no other reason really.

Uhm...why? Makes logic sense, really. When you think about that you can get anything, from anywhere from anytime (except the future I guess ) right into your PC without problem. In all honesty you should be able to find a lot more music (in this case) that you like and have never heard of before. You aren't going to buy something before you know what it is after all.

Really? Seems it's working fine from what I hear. All leagues, full database and no "bugs" encounterd. The only function it doesn't have is the holiday thing, but who would care?

If you think MP3 is anywhere near CD quality or is not a lossy compression then you need your ears tested!

I know about the studies, Ive been involved in them, the responses and the actual real world analysis and development of anti piracy solutions directly for the past 4 years of my career and the past 15 years on and off.

[saberhagen83]

If you think MP3 is anywhere near CD quality or is not a lossy compression then you need your ears tested!

Well I know a MP3 is of lower quality. But how much of it you can hear really is down to the quality of the file, if we are talking 128-192kbps then you can easily hear the difference even on the worst speakers. But move up to 320+ and you would need a pretty good setup to hear much difference, I don't think I have that good so...or maybe I'll do that appointment at the doctors office in the morning.

[Alexandre]

Piracy shouldnt be Nr. 1 concern when making a game, it should be costumer happiness...

I think the same.

[Kris]

The piracy side isnt dictated by the developer though, its dictated by the publisher.

[philly_flyer10]

Uhm...why? Makes logic sense, really. When you think about that you can get anything, from anywhere from anytime (except the future I guess ) right into your PC without problem. In all honesty you should be able to find a lot more music (in this case) that you like and have never heard of before. You aren't going to buy something before you know what it is after all.

Hes proven wrong so has no comeback apart from slagging it. A bit like a politician really. People might download 20 cds and buy say 3 of them that they like. The industry will say thats 17 lost sales when in fact they get deleted because they are so poor and end up with 3 sales they wouldnt have got without downloading. Same goes for games except when the companies use restrictive DRM. Then the pirates wont even but it to support the makers because they will get an inferior product.

Really? Seems it's working fine from what I hear. All leagues, full database and no "bugs" encounterd. The only function it doesn't have is the holiday thing, but who would care?

Yup, if it has the full league and database, it has to be the full game because those werent in the demo.

[Kris]

You still have not responded to my post philly.

[philly_flyer10]

You still have not responded to my post philly.

You didnt have a point, you cant tell the difference with higher bitrates and even if you could. There are several lossless alternatives like FLAC available.

In fact, thered be more incentive to buy a game than music because then you can player the games online which you cant do with cracked copies.

With music, you can download an exact 1-1 copy if you want.

[Uncle_Sam]

Here you go. All of the studies Ive seen prove it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1149417.ece

http://www.pch.gc.ca/pc-ch/pubs/music_industry/tdm_e.cfm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4718249.stm

The BBC one says they spend 4.5 times more on cds than the average fan.

Heh, now this is funny. Here is the flaw in the logic of those studies. If someone isn't into music, they aren't going buy cd's OR download illegal music. Someone who is more into music will do more of both. That is a big DUR and those studies are a waste of time, money, and bandwidth.

[Kris]

But umm, the "research" you chose pointed to the fact that more people buy cd's when downloading because they can have (ie "rip") lossless formats

Mr Geist wont be happy

You can play cracked copies of games online very easily, mostly because the interrogation system of even big boys like Steam is considered invasive enough so as not to actually implement something that works.

Ive been over this every year since about 2003, pirates wont purchase the game because they can get it for free and can either rely on experinced coders to crack enough features of the game to make it playable or simply delete it and move on to something else equally free. Thats the simple truth.

I would like you to link your "research" to actual whitepapers though, because Ive obviously missed a few in my career.

Not to self: must not spend all day drinking coffee and playing silly buggers with whitebaord on AI routines for antipiracy measures

[Kris]

And we've implemented anti-piracy measures on software that works, cannot be cirumnavigated and whilst fairly intrusive on our customers is in the corporate field so that they dont really mind.

Have had far more support in this as regards revenues and public support then when we adoped less rigorous methods.

[philly_flyer10]

Ive been over this every year since about 2003, pirates wont purchase the game because they can get it for free and can either rely on experinced coders to crack enough features of the game to make it playable or simply delete it and move on to something else equally free. Thats the simple truth.

Not really, very few games are playable online with a cracked copy as a simple cd key check stops that, if they are, they are on cracked servers full of morons. You only get a decent experience of official servers where people can be banned.

If the game is good enough, some will buy it, some wont as its human nature. However from what Ive seen, people are far more likely to buy games not protected by DRM than they are games with Starforce, EAs protection or SIs protection.

The fact is using the DRM costs the publishers 3 fold, 1 - paying for the DRM, 2 - annoying the customers, 3 - discouraging people who downloaded it from buying it as they will get an inferior product.

Stardock have it right, people will buy it if its good enough.

[philly_flyer10]

And we've implemented anti-piracy measures on software that works, cannot be cirumnavigated and whilst fairly intrusive on our customers is in the corporate field so that they dont really mind.

Have had far more support in this as regards revenues and public support then when we adoped less rigorous methods.

This doesnt apply to FM though, there was also record complaints here in the days after release, it just did not work.

I also note FM09 is #8 in the games chart where as its been #1 in every year I can remember.

Looks like SI lost sales, annoyed customers and didnt affect the pirates at all.

[Uncle_Sam]

I've never once decided not to buy a game because of DRM protection. If you like the game, you'll go through the minimum hassle.

[Kris]

CD Keys are probably the easiest of all methods to crack and the hardest to track (it is just, afterall, an algorithm, which may or may not even got to the (wow) extent of using mod-11 to ensure that the numbers actually mean something).

I dont really buy into your statements as you mix "what Ive seen" with "facts".

As I say, show me whitepapers that agree with what your stating, and not some 5 year old newspaper article.

[Kris]

This doesnt apply to FM though, there was also record complaints here in the days after release, it just did not work.

I also note FM09 is #8 in the games chart where as its been #1 in every year I can remember.

Looks like SI lost sales, annoyed customers and didnt affect the pirates at all.

Umm you dont have any real stats or proof on any of the above (other than chart positions) do you?

[Hamselv]

Ive been over this every year since about 2003, pirates wont purchase the game because they can get it for free and can either rely on experinced coders to crack enough features of the game to make it playable or simply delete it and move on to something else equally free. Thats the simple truth.

So pirates will stay pirates, and even if a DRM system works and prevents the pirates from getting a working copy they will not buy the game but download something else. How is anyone then able to justify inconveniencing the people that is quite willing to buy the game by adding the DRM? It seems there's nothing to be gained, but there's a clear risk of losing existing customers.

[philly_flyer10]

Anyone with any kind of common sense knows SI dont get free copy protection and can see there were record complaints about getting this version to work. I cant believe youre even trying to deny that.

Its also 9th in Amazon games and has an average rating of 2 out of 5.

[sjm]

If you think MP3 is anywhere near CD quality or is not a lossy compression then you need your ears tested!

But unless your compression algorithm is rubbish or the bit rate much too low, only an audiophile cares about the difference (and most people probably can't even hear it).

For most listening environments (living room, noise pollution, relatively cheap speakers) they're both equally good.

[Kris]

So pirates will stay pirates, and even if a DRM system works and prevents the pirates from getting a working copy they will not buy the game but download something else. How is anyone then able to justify inconveniencing the people that is quite willing to buy the game by adding the DRM? It seems there's nothing to be gained, but there's a clear risk of losing existing customers.

I havent advocated DRM in this thread (or ever) have I?

Ive merely pointed out that what people perceive or read about in journalism isn't necessarily true.

[Kris]

Anyone with any kind of common sense knows SI dont get free copy protection and can see there were record complaints about getting this version to work. I cant believe youre even trying to deny that.

Its also 9th in Amazon games and has an average rating of 2 out of 5.

The early adoption of safedisc was worse

The complaints have mostly been about the font used on the game code which is not DRM or any aoftware measure but a lack of thought and testing by the distributors/publishers.

I dont defend that, I have been known to rant against SI if its deserved. I just dont think this thread is on the right track.

[DJ]

I think what people keep saying is 'anti-piracy measures work, or they don't'.

It ain't that easy. It works up to a point where casual pirates would rather give up and buy then download.

No one here has a way of telling how succesful SEGA/SI have been - but as someone already mentioned, the first day is the most important (which is supported by the massive outrage right here in these boards about the delay in activation) and it seems to me that on that first day, heck, even up to a few days later, pirates and downloaders had massive trouble cracking the game or downloading a working version.

[Matt ex SEGA]

This doesnt apply to FM though, there was also record complaints here in the days after release, it just did not work.

I also note FM09 is #8 in the games chart where as its been #1 in every year I can remember.

Looks like SI lost sales, annoyed customers and didnt affect the pirates at all.

The only accurate part of your post was about the annoyed customers. In fairness, people will complain about anything that doesn't work properly, quite rightly - however, what you didn't see was the thousands of users who authed easily and have played happily ever since - even taking into account the fact that we had major issues with the auth servers which are now rectified.

FM has only ever once been top of the all-formats chart, that I can recall, so you're not accurate there either. I'm fairly happy to be second to WoW in the PC chart, it's not often you come up against a competitive product like that.

You assumption about sales is incorrect.

And, you don't know the effect that the DRM had on the pirates, or the objectives we had when applying it in the first place.

You seem to be confusing the fact that you dislike DRM with a set of unsubstantiated opinions about the effect that it's had on the product. You're welcome to your opinion and we'll try to canvas a number of our customers before finalising a plan for next year, but I did want to make sure you were operating in full knowledge about the effect it's had on FM.

[Jimboola]

I think it is a generally accepted truth that pirates are not stopped, they are at best delayed. Cracks will develop within days, and within a month good reliable cracks will be out there.

Unfortunately in the meantime SI have really annoyed lots of people who have paid good money on a product that they had every right to expect to be 'good to go' from the off.

The bugs in the game compound the situation to those already annoyed.

I have to admit my initial 'enthusiasm' is waining. After waiting for the game, then the problems...it does feel like a big let-down.

I do not consider myself a 'moaner' on this board but seriously...until they get a decent patch out I can no longer play. It is making me down on a game I have loved for years (since the first in fact).

By the time the next patch could be ready there will be very good pirated versions all over the pirate community, so I urge SI to include a disabling of all this security when it arrives in a month or whatever. Because by that time all you will be doing is inconveniencing the loyal buyers by then...no one else.

If someone at SI is reading this I hope such an opinion is taken into account.

[treble_yell_:-)]

This doesnt apply to FM though, there was also record complaints here in the days after release, it just did not work.

I also note FM09 is #8 in the games chart where as its been #1 in every year I can remember.

Looks like SI lost sales, annoyed customers and didnt affect the pirates at all.

utter rubbish , unless your claiming Fm has went up against and beaten games like Call of duty and Gears ( games that shift 4-5 million units in their opening weeks) before and outsold them.

Fm is 2nd in the PC chart behind WoTLK ( you know that expansion to the game that 10 million people pay £10 every month to play) and Miles said they sold more copies on day 1 than they did in the opening weekend last year.

Trying to skew all format sales to prove FM lost sales is bordering on desperation.

[Cha Cha Cha]

By all accounts, the pirated versions avaible atm are full of bugs, dont work properly, kick you out after one season..and so on.

Has DRM succeded? at least for now..

from varoius torrents.

hahahaha

drm failed on all the front, there was immediately a working crack, moreover this thread is very stupid. Take care of yourself, not the pirates...!