Ever seen a team irl parking the bus away from home and constantly having 65% of possession and playing tiki taka like prime Barcelona?

[goku4]

I have no more words to say... The whole mentality system is just a big misunderstanding this year...

I did not start this thread to get to know how to break down these systems. All I want to know is how to press these teams upfront to not let a bottom size team play tiki taka against a Champions League side... If I play low block and try to trap them, they will just say thank you, will use the room in their own third to just tiki taka the whole 90 minutes without even attempting an attack. If I press them like hell with very high d-line and LOE they will still outplay me by just playing tiki taka like prime Barca... The whole mentality system is a huge mess this year. No team should be capable of having such high possession rates when its only target is to park the bus and to get a point.

[zyfon5]

7 minutes ago, goku4 said:

I have no more words to say... The whole mentality system is just a big misunderstanding this year...

I did not start this thread to get to know how to break down these systems. All I want to know is how to press these teams upfront to not let a bottom size team play tiki taka against a Champions League side... If I play low block and try to trap them, they will just say thank you, will use the room in their own third to just tiki taka the whole 90 minutes without even attempting an attack. If I press them like hell with very high d-line and LOE they will still outplay me by just playing tiki taka like prime Barca... The whole mentality system is a huge mess this year. No team should be capable of having such high possession rates when its only target is to park the bus and to get a point.

The secret is to press them just enough but not too aggressive to win the ball back. You will also need to stop giving away the ball too easily. There was a previous thread in this forum where I posted my tiki taka tactic that managed to come close to real life possession numbers for a tiki taka team (close to 70% possession and opponent hovering around 70% pass completion) for few games. If you are winning your matches, then I do not see why you need to be obsessed with possession.

[goku4]

1 minute ago, zyfon5 said:

The secret is to press them just enough but not too aggressive to win the ball back. You will also need to stop giving away the ball too easily. There was a previous thread in this forum where I posted my tiki taka tactic that managed to come close to real life possession numbers for a tiki taka team (close to 70% possession and opponent hovering around 70% pass completion) for few games. If you are winning your matches, then I do not see why you need to be obsessed with possession.

I am not obsessed with possession. Problem is, I am not effective against these teams. I hate it that they park the bus but still dominate me absolutely on my own pitch... What exactly does not too much pressing mean? How is your combination of d-line, loe and pressing intensity? I tried low block, did not work. I also tried to man mark the full backs and to press with my striker and 2 central midfielders but still did not really work out...

[crusadertsar]

If you just opened this thread to complain, then I'm afraid it's not going to go far unfortunately. It's already been been said many times here that there's nothing that can be changed at this point. We just need to wait for FM21 and see. And even then it might still remain. 

And it's not really an issue unless you make it into one. Like Possession by itself is meaningless. It's all about how you use the ball when you have it. The aim of most successful tactics is about getting the ball away from these defensive sides and trust me it can be done. Just watch any of the videos by @Rashidi. The game also does not calculate Possession in the same way as in real life.

Edited September 13, 2020 by crusadertsar

[goku4]

3 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

If you just opened this thread to complain. I'm afraid it's not going to go far unfortunately. It's already been been said many times here that there's nothing that can changed at this point. We just need to wait for FM21 and see.

And it's not really an issue unless you make it one. Like Possession by itself is meaningless. It's how you use the ball when you have it. The game also does not calculate Possession in the same way as in real life.

Ok, thought there would be a way to prevent the AI by pressing. So your recommendation is to not give away the ball, because once it is gone, you cant do much to prevent the AI playing tiki taka... I really wished SI would bring back the tactic table and would allow us to customize our own player roles etc... This whole system with player roles, given preset mentalities is a mess and leads to misunderstanding

[h3nrique_SEP]

@goku4 try to put your CM's to man mark specific opposition's CM's and tell them to mark tighter,

and do the same with your fullbacks and wingers

it will not solve your problem, but may mitigate it

and still with your LOE and DL as highest as possible

Edited September 13, 2020 by h3nrique_SEP

[goku4]

11 minutes ago, h3nrique_SEP said:

@goku4 try to put your CM's to man mark specific opposition's CM's and tell them to mark tighter,

and do the same with your fullbacks and wingers

it will not solve your problem, but may mitigate it

and still with your LOE and DL as highest as possible 180 yard hollywood ball and of course their striker finishes the 1on1, while yours need 10 1on1s for a single goal. Also I noticed that whenever you give your wingers a specific man marking instruction their offensive efficiency decreases a lot. Problem lies in the ME and how players pressing. They dont cut passing lanes but rather run into opposition players like headless chicken. This opens lots of spaces on the wings and the AI does nothing else than playing ping pong.

Yeah I tried that too, but problem is they just play one single hollywood ball and convert their one on one... Its a ME issue and how pressing is defined... Players dont cut passing lanes but rather run into opposition players like headless chicken

Edited September 13, 2020 by goku4

[CaptCanuck]

How many threads do you need? Put the game down and move onto something else. Or take a deep breath and look forward to your next match against a side that will play football :-)

You're not going to get anything new, as all the methods for beating this scenario have been given by all of us (whether clever or brutish) previously, with the receipts to prove that they can work.

I've just finished scoring a combined 10 goals against Inter and Bayern over 4 matches in the round of 16 and quarter final CL matches with my normal, playing football tactic. Same set up against 16th placed Fulham right after that gets me a 1-0 victory (after stuffing them 3-0 using my bus crashing tactic against them earlier in the season). Also only 1 goal against Sheffield Utd and West Ham just before that CL stretch.

Is that a good simulation/game/realistic that a Prem side in 1st place, in the CL semis, FA Cup finals, and already won the League Cup cannot do better than that against bottom half sides? I think the answer would have to be no it isn't. But it is 'realistic' that Brighton are in with a chance at a quadruple in Spring 2026? Think that answer is no as well ;-) In the end this is just a game: like it or leave it.

[Experienced Defender]

22 minutes ago, goku4 said:

Its a ME issue and how pressing is defined... Players dont cut passing lanes but rather run into opposition players like headless chicken

Which shows that it actually is a tactical issue. But given that you don't want to post a screenshot of your tactic, I really don't see how anyone can give you any really meaningful advice. Instead, all you can get is mere speculation. 

If you started this thread only to complain about the ME, then I'll unfortunately have no choice but to lock it. Because this forum is about tactical help and advice only. 

[herne79]

Your issue here has nothing to do with the Mentality which the opposition is using.  Nor is it an ME issue (or more accurately an AI issue).

226 passes for you, 462 for the opposition?  I appreciate you are frustrated but come on, you know full well you don't play "tiki taka possession football like Barcelona" with just 462 passes.  Further, you are giving the ball away far too cheaply if all you can muster is 226 passes.

If you want help post your system.

[zyfon5]

19 hours ago, goku4 said:

I am not obsessed with possession. Problem is, I am not effective against these teams. I hate it that they park the bus but still dominate me absolutely on my own pitch... What exactly does not too much pressing mean? How is your combination of d-line, loe and pressing intensity? I tried low block, did not work. I also tried to man mark the full backs and to press with my striker and 2 central midfielders but still did not really work out...

First of all, notice that they are playing with a double pivot with two midfielders that can drop deep to receive the ball from the CB. You will need to adapt how you press against different lineups: 4231, 3atb, single DM etc. Since you only have one lone striker up top, this creates problems for your pressing because you only have one striker to cover two passing lanes.

Normally in real life teams will switch to a 442 to press against a double pivot due to the deficiencies of pressing using a single striker. In fact, Pep guardiola often switches his team to press in a 442 even though they line up initially as a 433. Pressing against a double pivot system using a lone striker is always going to be difficult. You will need the striker to start from a deep position ideally close to the double pivot so that your team will set up almost like a mid block. Your striker should start pressing once the ball is played to one of the pivots so that you can force them into one side of the pitch. If your striker press too aggressively or not start from a deep enough position, the lone striker will end up running rings between the double pivot and the two CB.

It will be helpful if you can post your tactics. Make sure that you do not have `prevent short GK distribution` when trying to press high using a lone striker. It is useless and will mess up your high pressing due to the positioning of the striker.

[Novem9]

20 часов назад, zyfon5 сказал:

The secret is to press them just enough but not too aggressive to win the ball back. You will also need to stop giving away the ball too easily. There was a previous thread in this forum where I posted my tiki taka tactic that managed to come close to real life possession numbers for a tiki taka team (close to 70% possession and opponent hovering around 70% pass completion) for few games. If you are winning your matches, then I do not see why you need to be obsessed with possession.

could you share the link please? Didnt find in your profile's content list.

Before I was thinking that I need short passing and a lot of support duties for possession. For now I noticed that this is not mandatory, in some cases it even worse   

[zyfon5]

38 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

could you share the link please? Didnt find in your profile's content list.

Before I was thinking that I need short passing and a lot of support duties for possession. For now I noticed that this is not mandatory, in some cases it even worse   

I can't find it myself too. It was a comment that I made on another person's thread. 

[dekzeh]

19 hours ago, herne79 said:

Your issue here has nothing to do with the Mentality which the opposition is using.  Nor is it an ME issue (or more accurately an AI issue).

226 passes for you, 462 for the opposition?  I appreciate you are frustrated but come on, you know full well you don't play "tiki taka possession football like Barcelona" with just 462 passes.  Further, you are giving the ball away far too cheaply if all you can muster is 226 passes.

If you want help post your system.

He never said he wants or intends to play Tiki Taka like Barcelona, he's complaining the defensive sides do that, by his comments I don't think he cares about having or not possession or anything resembling Tiki Taka, just wants to learn how to press the opposition so they don't spend the whole game passing around the back, which I agree with you is kinda worthless without him providing his system.

More likely is he just wanted to rant though, which is just out of place here.

[herne79]

31 minutes ago, dekzeh said:

He never said he wants or intends to play Tiki Taka like Barcelona, he's complaining the defensive sides do that

I know.  I'm pointing out that in his example the opposition is not playing tiki taka like Barcelona.

[johnwalker]

Tbf to him the screenshot was taken in the 58th minute. If the rate of passes remained consistent that would lead to around 730ish passes in the match for the opposition. 

Also his 84 percent pass completion isn't amazing, but it also isn't ridiculously low. 

[Sebas]

hace 12 horas, zyfon5 dijo:

First of all, notice that they are playing with a double pivot with two midfielders that can drop deep to receive the ball from the CB. You will need to adapt how you press against different lineups: 4231, 3atb, single DM etc. Since you only have one lone striker up top, this creates problems for your pressing because you only have one striker to cover two passing lanes.

Normally in real life teams will switch to a 442 to press against a double pivot due to the deficiencies of pressing using a single striker. In fact, Pep guardiola often switches his team to press in a 442 even though they line up initially as a 433. Pressing against a double pivot system using a lone striker is always going to be difficult. You will need the striker to start from a deep position ideally close to the double pivot so that your team will set up almost like a mid block. Your striker should start pressing once the ball is played to one of the pivots so that you can force them into one side of the pitch. If your striker press too aggressively or not start from a deep enough position, the lone striker will end up running rings between the double pivot and the two CB.

It will be helpful if you can post your tactics. Make sure that you do not have `prevent short GK distribution` when trying to press high using a lone striker. It is useless and will mess up your high pressing due to the positioning of the striker.

Very interesting. Would you suggest using a normal (or even lower) LOE along with a higher d-line for achieving this mid-block against these defensive double pivot sides?  What about instructions regarding pressing? Would using a Pressing Forward mess up the press? 
 

Also curious about prevent short GK distribution and what it actually does. Do you mind expanding on this?

Edit: In particular why do you think PSGkD is innefective with a lone forward?

Edited September 14, 2020 by Sebas

[zyfon5]

1 hour ago, Sebas said:

Very interesting. Would you suggest using a normal (or even lower) LOE along with a higher d-line for achieving this mid-block against these defensive double pivot sides?  What about instructions regarding pressing? Would using a Pressing Forward mess up the press? 
 

Also curious about prevent short GK distribution and what it actually does. Do you mind expanding on this?

It really depends on how the opponent is set up and how your team is set up. Playing a two striker combination is always going to make pressing against a double pivot easier. Meanwhile a lone striker formation the pressing needs to be very coordinated together with the two advanced midfielders in the team. A lower LoE will definitely be needed. The striker role is also going to be important. Ideally a striker role that starts from a deeper position.

Prevent short GK distribution instructs your players to stick closer to the opponent defenders to stop the GK from making a short pass easily. It works best when you have a set up that is suited to press high like a 5212. However it is a problem when you have one single striker up top because the striker can only mark one CB at a time leaving the other CB open.

[goku4]

As I've written above, I dont wanna rant about me having not too much possession or losing. As the screenshots show, I am overachieving with FC Cologne, so no reason to cry. I just wanna understand how to press these kind of teams, as these are the only teams that cause heavy challenge. I have no problems going away and beating Bayern or Dortmund. I know, there is the way to not give away the ball easily and keep it, but there must be also a way of how to prevent these teams playing so much and so long at the back. I have attached some screenshots of the tactic I played for almost 4 seasons. I also attached the tactic which I have tweaked using recommendations from this forum. As you can see, the tweaks have helped me to rescue a season which I believed was lost again towards the end. Just wanna know whether the results were just luck or whether the tactic is balanced and has potential to overcome challenges such as these ultra-defensive possession heavy sides.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

If the 2nd tactic (attacking mentality) is what you are using against these teams that park the bus, then it would explain what you're experiencing re: high possession from teams parking the bus. Extremely aggressive press + PGKD with a formation that isn't really suited to it (IMO). 

Edited September 15, 2020 by NotSoSpecialOne

[goku4]

5 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

If the 2nd tactic (attacking mentality) is what you are using against these teams that park the bus, then it would explain what you're experiencing re: high possession from teams parking the bus. Extremely aggressive press + PGKD with a formation that isn't really suited to it (IMO). 

The attacking mentality was my former tactic which I always used, no matter whether defensive sides or not. I then tweaked it to make it less aggressive.

[herne79]

8 hours ago, goku4 said:

As the screenshots show, I am overachieving with FC Cologne, so no reason to cry

First of all, good job .  Breaking Bayern's monopoly is no mean feat.

However, this in itself does present a risk - if you start changing things too much you may break your successful system.  Therefore any changes you do try I'd recommend you use against these "defensive" sides only - and then only during matches where you actually see this type of behaviour starting.

Anyway, in terms of how to deal.  There is something in football called "the three P's": Possession, Pressing and Position.  For FM I'd suggest a 4th: Players.  I'm also going to suggest that in my opinion the formation you are using can be a little trickier to set up in FM this year to effectively press the opposition than in previous versions.  Not impossible by any means, but a little trickier.  So what can you do?  Assuming you're using the tactic with the Positive Mentality:

1) Possession.  You're not overly bothered about this so I'm not going to cover it.

2) Players.  For an effective press you ideally have the right players.  Aggression, Determination, Work Rate are 3 attributes I always look for.  Stamina is also useful for helping them maintain a press for 90 minutes, as is Natural Fitness to help players recover between matches.  Do you have the right players?  Further, consider the players in combination with their given roles.  For example, is Gomez + AP(A) an effective combination?  How is your CM(S) working out?

3) Position.  Formation is part of this.  In my opinion it is "easier" to set up an effective pressing unit with a different formation (such as the 4231).  I'm not suggesting you change formation, however you could consider it as a Plan B if all else fails.  Anyway, sticking with Plan A (your current formation), I'd suggest your current combination of mentality, TIs and role selection isn't ideal, which leaves you pressing and cutting off passing channels, but in the wrong area of the pitch.  You've reduced mentality to Positive (good, because sometimes it's possible to be overly aggressive with tactical settings) but also reduced your line of engagement further.  Upping the LoE to the max should help your players to start the press in a better area of the pitch.  Mentality could even be reduced further while keeping the max LoE.  I know that may sound contradicting but as I said above, it's possible to be overly aggressive with tactical settings.  Also check the positions which your players take up when you lose the ball.  Are your Inside Forwards too wide, offering little in the way of pressing support to your lone forward?  Are your AP and CM positioned well to press high?  If not you could consider a subtle change of role, for example CM change to BWM or AP change to CM(A).  Again, these are nothing more than ideas for specific circumstances you find yourself in during a match, not something to be used all the time.

4) Pressing.  If 2) and 3) above are right, this should become the natural result.  But as mentioned above, it's about pressing in the right areas of the pitch which I feel is missing at the moment.  You have a press but in the wrong area and because you are effectively blocking passing lanes the opposition just pass it around at the back, running rings around your lone striker.  If you watch matches I'll bet the opposition do try to move the ball forwards, but they'll get pressed in midfield with passing lanes blocked and so end up passing backwards.

I appreciate this may sound like a lot of things to consider, perhaps more than should be strictly necessary in what is after all just a computer game, but SI is moving the game more and more into getting us to think for ourselves and adapting on the fly, rather than just plugging away in roughly the same way game after game.  It does make things more interesting, but can also be a bit of a pain in the arse.  You're not a million miles away, just some subtle tweaks in certain matches is all that's necessary.  And if all else fails, have a Plan B.

[goku4]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

First of all, good job .  Breaking Bayern's monopoly is no mean feat.

However, this in itself does present a risk - if you start changing things too much you may break your successful system.  Therefore any changes you do try I'd recommend you use against these "defensive" sides only - and then only during matches where you actually see this type of behaviour starting.

Anyway, in terms of how to deal.  There is something in football called "the three P's": Possession, Pressing and Position.  For FM I'd suggest a 4th: Players.  I'm also going to suggest that in my opinion the formation you are using can be a little trickier to set up in FM this year to effectively press the opposition than in previous versions.  Not impossible by any means, but a little trickier.  So what can you do?  Assuming you're using the tactic with the Positive Mentality:

1) Possession.  You're not overly bothered about this so I'm not going to cover it.

2) Players.  For an effective press you ideally have the right players.  Aggression, Determination, Work Rate are 3 attributes I always look for.  Stamina is also useful for helping them maintain a press for 90 minutes, as is Natural Fitness to help players recover between matches.  Do you have the right players?  Further, consider the players in combination with their given roles.  For example, is Gomez + AP(A) an effective combination?  How is your CM(S) working out?

3) Position.  Formation is part of this.  In my opinion it is "easier" to set up an effective pressing unit with a different formation (such as the 4231).  I'm not suggesting you change formation, however you could consider it as a Plan B if all else fails.  Anyway, sticking with Plan A (your current formation), I'd suggest your current combination of mentality, TIs and role selection isn't ideal, which leaves you pressing and cutting off passing channels, but in the wrong area of the pitch.  You've reduced mentality to Positive (good, because sometimes it's possible to be overly aggressive with tactical settings) but also reduced your line of engagement further.  Upping the LoE to the max should help your players to start the press in a better area of the pitch.  Mentality could even be reduced further while keeping the max LoE.  I know that may sound contradicting but as I said above, it's possible to be overly aggressive with tactical settings.  Also check the positions which your players take up when you lose the ball.  Are your Inside Forwards too wide, offering little in the way of pressing support to your lone forward?  Are your AP and CM positioned well to press high?  If not you could consider a subtle change of role, for example CM change to BWM or AP change to CM(A).  Again, these are nothing more than ideas for specific circumstances you find yourself in during a match, not something to be used all the time.

4) Pressing.  If 2) and 3) above are right, this should become the natural result.  But as mentioned above, it's about pressing in the right areas of the pitch which I feel is missing at the moment.  You have a press but in the wrong area and because you are effectively blocking passing lanes the opposition just pass it around at the back, running rings around your lone striker.  If you watch matches I'll bet the opposition do try to move the ball forwards, but they'll get pressed in midfield with passing lanes blocked and so end up passing backwards.

I appreciate this may sound like a lot of things to consider, perhaps more than should be strictly necessary in what is after all just a computer game, but SI is moving the game more and more into getting us to think for ourselves and adapting on the fly, rather than just plugging away in roughly the same way game after game.  It does make things more interesting, but can also be a bit of a pain in the arse.  You're not a million miles away, just some subtle tweaks in certain matches is all that's necessary.  And if all else fails, have a Plan B.

Thx for the long advice. There seem to be quite some options to reconsider for me. However, one point I want to add is: As you can see in the previous tactic (attacking mentality) I maxed out the LOE. I really had very good results defensively at least, you can see I conceded 14 goals the whole season (only the last 3-4 games were played with control mentality tactic) with a back line that is not really the best one (player-wise). I have noticed that especially when the opposition is playing wide that they exploit that space between their full back and and rm/lm. My wingers tend to attack the CBs very early and leave extreme wide open flanks and the opposition just positions its fullbacks very wide and tells their wingers to drop a little bit and has very easy way to attack me from the flanks and play a diagonal through balls. I noticed this issue especially against teams using the 442. I tried to defend a bit wider but it didn't really help. So would you say that low-block/mid-block is not quite necessary for vertical compactness when using a specific formation? I thought like that as well and played a high d-line and very high loe because I though I have the DMC to cover the space between defence and midfield.

[herne79]

47 minutes ago, goku4 said:

However, one point I want to add is: As you can see in the previous tactic (attacking mentality) I maxed out the LOE. I really had very good results defensively at least, you can see I conceded 14 goals the whole season (only the last 3-4 games were played with control mentality tactic) with a back line that is not really the best one (player-wise). I have noticed that especially when the opposition is playing wide that they exploit that space between their full back and and rm/lm. My wingers tend to attack the CBs very early and leave extreme wide open flanks and the opposition just positions its fullbacks very wide and tells their wingers to drop a little bit and has very easy way to attack me from the flanks and play a diagonal through balls. I noticed this issue especially against teams using the 442. I tried to defend a bit wider but it didn't really help. So would you say that low-block/mid-block is not quite necessary for vertical compactness when using a specific formation? I thought like that as well and played a high d-line and very high loe because I though I have the DMC to cover the space between defence and midfield.

imo that is "possibly" a function of being overly aggressive.  Take your left flank for example in that Attacking Mentality tactic.  You have a CWB(attack) along with a fullback who (perhaps?) has the Trait to get forward often (fullbacks especially tend to have that Trait).  So with that Mentality, role, duty and player all selected you don't really have a defender any more - you basically have a winger who wants to get forward all the time and doesn't pay much attention to defending.  Great for attacking, rubbish for defending.

Using all of that in combination is basically overkill.  You simply don't need all it all.  You can of course use all of that in combination, but it's a very risky strategy which you have to be prepared for.

[goku4]

52 minutes ago, herne79 said:

imo that is "possibly" a function of being overly aggressive.  Take your left flank for example in that Attacking Mentality tactic.  You have a CWB(attack) along with a fullback who (perhaps?) has the Trait to get forward often (fullbacks especially tend to have that Trait).  So with that Mentality, role, duty and player all selected you don't really have a defender any more - you basically have a winger who wants to get forward all the time and doesn't pay much attention to defending.  Great for attacking, rubbish for defending.

Using all of that in combination is basically overkill.  You simply don't need all it all.  You can of course use all of that in combination, but it's a very risky strategy which you have to be prepared for.

But, does that still apply to cases where the opposition is building slowly from defence? I am not in transition. I dont speak about the case where I lose the ball and get countered. Rather have the problem when opposition plays out from defence.

[herne79]

 

18 minutes ago, goku4 said:

But, does that still apply to cases where the opposition is building slowly from defence? I am not in transition. I dont speak about the case where I lose the ball and get countered. Rather have the problem when opposition plays out from defence.

They're not building slowly from defence.  They only look like they are because that is what you are making them do.  Your team is blocking off the midfield - you are either effectively blocking passing lanes or pressing them in midfield (which isn't a bad thing btw) - so their only option is to go backwards and sideways, running rings around your lone striker.

Now arguably they should just be booting the ball long and away from the danger area - and that is perhaps something which needs reviewing - but then again why should they boot the ball long if they can comfortably retain possession at the back because your system is letting them?  

In that thread I created on this very topic someone uploaded a match pkm which I analysed and I also showed a minute long clip in the thread from that match which shows exactly this happening.  The answer, in these situations, is to shift where you press using a combination of factors that I outlined above.

 

[crusadertsar]

31 minutes ago, goku4 said:

But, does that still apply to cases where the opposition is building slowly from defence? I am not in transition. I dont speak about the case where I lose the ball and get countered. Rather have the problem when opposition plays out from defence.

You really should go back and read over what some already adviced you. I dont think you completely understand. Your problem is that you are giving the opposition too many opportunities to build up slowly from the back. And no counterpress is not the solution.

Essentially with team instructions like "pass into space", "counter" and "play wider" you are giving up the ball too easily. Also by using no less than two roles on "very attacking" mentality and one with attacking mentality (inside forward on support). You are not really playing possession football. Decide what kind of style you want from your team because right now it's all over the place. Especially Pass into Space. It has no place in a tactic geared towards playing high pressing Possession football.

[goku4]

4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

 

They're not building slowly from defence.  They only look like they are because that is what you are making them do.  Your team is blocking off the midfield - you are either effectively blocking passing lanes or pressing them in midfield (which isn't a bad thing btw) - so their only option is to go backwards and sideways, running rings around your lone striker.

Now arguably they should just be booting the ball long and away from the danger area - and that is perhaps something which needs reviewing - but then again why should they boot the ball long if they can comfortably retain possession at the back because your system is letting them?  

In that thread I created on this very topic someone uploaded a match pkm which I analysed and I also showed a minute long clip in the thread from that match which shows exactly this happening.  The answer, in these situations, is to shift where you press using a combination of factors that I outlined above.

 

First of all thanks for taking your time. I have attached a picture how I usually concede or where I usually have immense problems. The black ones are the opposition. Since I did not save ingame these situations, I tried to use my drawing abilities to make you understand my problem when playing with very high loe and high d-line.

[crusadertsar]

5 minutes ago, goku4 said:

First of all thanks for taking your time. I have attached a picture how I usually concede or where I usually have immense problems. The black ones are the opposition. Since I did not save ingame these situations, I tried to use my drawing abilities to make you understand my problem when playing with very high loe and high d-line.

I am actually curious what's your logic for using pass into space with high D-line and high LOE. What space is there to run into?

[herne79]

3 minutes ago, goku4 said:

First of all thanks for taking your time. I have attached a picture how I usually concede or where I usually have immense problems. The black ones are the opposition. Since I did not save ingame these situations, I tried to use my drawing abilities to make you understand my problem when playing with very high loe and high d-line.

I've no idea what that means .

Read that post I just linked.  Watch the clip - it looks familiar right?  Then compare my system I show in that same post with yours.  Look at what the main differences are.

[goku4]

49 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I am actually curious what's your logic for using pass into space with high D-line and high LOE. What space is there to run into?

Well, it may sound strange for you, but got the feeling that I create way more goal chances with this instruction. I hope to increase the chance of chances by trying passes into spaces and even when opposition sits deep and does not giv away spaces there is still the chance of rebounds or overlapping fullbacks finding space. Its more a thing of experience and observations made with and without the instruction.

[goku4]

53 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I've no idea what that means .

Read that post I just linked.  Watch the clip - it looks familiar right?  Then compare my system I show in that same post with yours.  Look at what the main differences are.

Ok got it. I ready through your post and it makes sense. So I will be starting into the new season with what I left previously. If I notice that it wont work because I am current champions and oppositions play even more defensively, I will try to fix by adjusting player roles. When determining player roles I never thought about their positioning in defence. Rather always thought about attacking process and that I have something balanced in attack. But makes sense to give player roles such as attacking cm or bwm if you wish that the two CMs push forward to help the lonely forward to press the opposition CBs and DMCs. I could then maybe give the two players on the flank to stay a bit wider and to tight mark with a support role so that they cut the passing lanes to the full backs.

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, goku4 said:

Even without analyzing your tactics in much detail, I immediately noticed that in both of them you use the pass into space and counter TIs, both of which are clearly not possession-friendly and are generally likely to lead to cheap losses of possession, especially against the ultra-defensive opposition you've been complaining about. Plus, the attacking team mentality in the 2nd tactic.

Not to mention other potential weaknesses of your tactics. 

Therefore, your issue is definitely tactical and has absolutely nothing to do with the ME (which of course is not perfect and could be improved, but for entirely different reasons). 

[crusadertsar]

15 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Even without analyzing your tactics in much detail, I immediately noticed that in both of them you use the pass into space and counter TIs, both of which are clearly not possession-friendly and are generally likely to lead to cheap losses of possession, especially against the ultra-defensive opposition you've been complaining about. Plus, the attacking team mentality in the 2nd tactic.

Not to mention other potential weaknesses of your tactics. 

Therefore, your issue is definitely tactical and has absolutely nothing to do with the ME (which of course is not perfect and could be improved, but for entirely different reasons). 

Yeah exactly what I thought . But he said he prefers to have those on. Maybe it's not really Possession Tactic he is looking for. 

[goku4]

57 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yeah exactly what I thought . But he said he prefers to have those on. Maybe it's not really Possession Tactic he is looking for. 

Yes, I dont care about possession. Its more about how to prevent the cautious/defensive AI having such high possession stats. Or lets say, how to become more stabilized and consistent and not give away points unnecessarily against teams that are way below you. So I followed the instructions, used the control tactic with following changes: increase LOE to maximum and prevent short gk distribution as well as more urgent pressing. Also tried removing pass into spaces and counter from the tactic with attacking mentality and both IFs on support, but somehow,  I just dont get it work. I noticed without counter whenever you win the ball high up the pitch your ball carrier does not get any support from players making forward runs. Maybe due to my both IFs being on support. But I like them on support and am afraid that by changing their roles, the whole mechanics could be destroyed. Anyway, gonna try out the scnd version on control mentality, it seems like it works. Bremen played cautious 4231 and I had no problems against them.

[goku4]

You guys mentioned that a 4123 has its flaws this year. I notice it against any 5atb formations. I get completely outplayed because AI can easily pass around with its 3 atb while only my striker is putting pressure. I tried to give my two IFs the stay narrow instruction and also changed the cm to a bwm but somehow its still not a solution. Even maximizin LOE does not help to prevent them play between their 3 centre backs. Do I need to change my formation to play against these teams?

[CaptCanuck]

9 minutes ago, goku4 said:

You guys mentioned that a 4123 has its flaws this year. I notice it against any 5atb formations. I get completely outplayed because AI can easily pass around with its 3 atb while only my striker is putting pressure. I tried to give my two IFs the stay narrow instruction and also changed the cm to a bwm but somehow its still not a solution. Even maximizin LOE does not help to prevent them play between their 3 centre backs. Do I need to change my formation to play against these teams?

You can move your AP to the AMC spot and your DLP into the vacated AP spot. Make sure the player in the AP spot isn't a pushover defensively.

If the opposition is not going to do anything offensively, you don't need that deeper sitting player. May there be a knock on effect with other spots? Maybe with the right-side tactic yes and the Mez needs to become a CM, but the simplest thing to try is putting someone in the AMC spot and see how your team and the opposition react.

Edited September 15, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[goku4]

1 minute ago, CaptCanuck said:

Based on right-side tactic, you can move your AP to the AMC spot and your DLP into the vacated AP spot. Make sure the player in the AP spot isn't a pushover defensively.

If the opposition is not going to do anything offensively, you don't need that deeper sitting player. May there be a knock on effect with other spots? Maybe yes and the Mez needs to become a CM, but the simplest thing to try is putting someone in the AMC spot and see how your team and the opposition react.

Currently playing the left tactic (control mentality with an ap and cm as my two CM spots). I am really afraid that the whol system changes when I move the AP to the AMC spot. Is there a difference pressing-wise between an ap(a) and a cm(a)? Is the CM(a) positioned far more upwards when it comes to closing down the opponent? Same applies to a cm(s) with maximum closing down and a bwm(s).

[CaptCanuck]

29 minutes ago, goku4 said:

Currently playing the left tactic (control mentality with an ap and cm as my two CM spots). I am really afraid that the whol system changes when I move the AP to the AMC spot. Is there a difference pressing-wise between an ap(a) and a cm(a)? Is the CM(a) positioned far more upwards when it comes to closing down the opponent? Same applies to a cm(s) with maximum closing down and a bwm(s).

Good question. In the midfield tier IDK how those two positions would react differently from a pressing/defensive POV.

Totally understandable about worrying about unsettling the tactic. I still don't use my 4231 a lot, as I'm not sure I've figured out how to get the AMC (AM/SS/AP) spot working well. I used it in 16/60 matches scoring 34 goals but only 4 coming from the AM spot. But most of my goals - regardless of tactic - come from the W and IF and that didn't change, but there was a reduction in DLF goals which is because I'm not good at getting the AMC and striker to work together.

That said, defensively an AM sitting on the opponent's DLP definitely helps channel passes to other areas and breaks up play better against those teams that sit deep, as compared to my usual 433. I think I mentioned in a previous thread, that using the my DLF and AM to man mark a defender and midfielder has paid dividends. Of course you need to pick the right two and know/guess how the oppo wants to play, but it can definitely disrupt things.

Edit: One other thing that maybe hasn't been mentioned. If you look at the results where these sides you have trouble with, get solidly beat by other teams, check the formations used and see what they are using. I noticed teams that beat bus parkers typically did have a 4231 or 4222 formation.

Edited September 15, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

But he said he prefers to have those on. Maybe it's not really Possession Tactic he is looking for

Maybe he is not looking for a possession tactic, but he did complain about defensive opposition being able to have a lot of possession against him. So I just offered a couple of obvious reasons 

[goku4]

10 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

Good question. In the midfield tier IDK how those two positions would react differently from a pressing/defensive POV.

Totally understandable about worrying about unsettling the tactic. I still don't use my 4231 a lot, as I'm not sure I've figured out how to get the AMC (AM/SS/AP) spot working well. I used it in 16/60 matches scoring 34 goals but only 4 coming from the AM spot. But most of my goals - regardless of tactic - come from the W and IF and that didn't change, but there was a reduction in DLF goals which is because I'm not good at getting the AMC and striker to work together.

That said, defensively an AM sitting on the opponent's DLP definitely helps channel passes to other areas and breaks up play better against those teams that sit deep, as compared to my usual 433. I think I mentioned in a previous thread, that using the my DLF and AM to man mark a defender and midfielder has paid dividends. Of course you need to pick the right two and know/guess how the oppo wants to play, but it can definitely disrupt things.

Edit: One other thing that maybe hasn't been mentioned. If you look at the results where these sides you have trouble with, get solidly beat by other teams, check the formations used and see what they are using. I noticed teams that beat bus parkers typically did have a 4231 or 4222 formation.

Yeah it really seems like having a two striker formation or one with an AMC helps a lot. I really tried different roles for one of my attacking CMs to let him act like an AMC when closing down opposition but still he stays far deeper and not neary close enough to the opposition DMC dropping deep. Will try out some things if I notice it wont help, maybe I will risk this season and try out another formation.

[goku4]

Some updates: Finished the season fourth, CL semi final, won the DFB pokal. Usually a good result, but I was extremely inconsistent. I had 12 draws and still the best defence but scored rarely. I really noticed that I have extreme problems dominating against teams who park the bus. I had no problems in CL beating Bayern, Liverpool and also lost to City because of away leg where I lost 2-0 and played with 10 men for 80 minutes. I have tried different variations tactically with the 4123 formation but somehow it does not work. I can not play against teams that especially play with 3 central defenders. Will be trying out the 4231, just one question: Is it a must to play a low/mid block with that formation? Am thinking about high d-line plus standard loe. I dont have that dmc to cover the area between d-line and midfield and am scared to play with a very high loe. Would playing low/mid-block cause similar problems against park the bus teams when it comes to pressing? My idea is to use a shadow striker and a very aggressive forward (perhabs pressing or adv forward) to press the opposition centre backs and DMC and a high positioned wingers who cut the passing lanes of full backs. Would standard loe plus shadow striker and pressing forward do the work for me? Or would you recommend to play a higher LOE and rather use two conservative CM roles to close the gap between defence and d-line?

[NotSoSpecialOne]

I'm inclined to think that part of the issue lay with the combination of TIs being used, as previously mentioned by CrusaderStar and Experienced Defender rather than simply just not being able to press opposition successfully.

It's not a must to play a mid or low block with 4231. It's a top heavy formation, so it can be easier to set up to play with a high press compared to say a 433. 

[Gegenklaus]

17 hours ago, goku4 said:

I can not play against teams that especially play with 3 central defenders. Will be trying out the 4231, just one question: Is it a must to play a low/mid block with that formation? Am thinking about high d-line plus standard loe. I dont have that dmc to cover the area between d-line and midfield and am scared to play with a very high loe. Would playing low/mid-block cause similar problems against park the bus teams when it comes to pressing? My idea is to use a shadow striker and a very aggressive forward (perhabs pressing or adv forward) to press the opposition centre backs and DMC and a high positioned wingers who cut the passing lanes of full backs. Would standard loe plus shadow striker and pressing forward do the work for me? Or would you recommend to play a higher LOE and rather use two conservative CM roles to close the gap between defence and d-line?

If I were you I would start with just creating the 4231 with the roles and duties you want. Leave Team Instructions empty for now. Watch how those roles interact with each other. Given you example in the quote above - how does the advanved forward/pressing forward interact with the shadow striker? Look for things like that. Pause the match at turnovers to see how your rest defense is if you lose the ball up high. How is your defensive shape when you are being pressed into your own half? Are you satisfied with what you seeing? 

Once you are happy with that you can start tinkering - if its even needed - with the Team Instructions. I used to tick a lot of instructions to begin with, but starting with a clean slate and just focus on getting the roles and duties right - and get to know the core of the system - has helped me designing plenty of fun and successful tactics.

[Robson 07]

On 15/09/2020 at 09:41, herne79 said:

Formation is part of this.  In my opinion it is "easier" to set up an effective pressing unit with a different formation (such as the 4231).  I'm not suggesting you change formation, however you could consider it as a Plan B if all else fails.  Anyway, sticking with Plan A (your current formation), I'd suggest your current combination of mentality, TIs and role selection isn't ideal, which leaves you pressing and cutting off passing channels, but in the wrong area of the pitch

 

On 15/09/2020 at 13:45, herne79 said:

They're not building slowly from defence.  They only look like they are because that is what you are making them do.  Your team is blocking off the midfield - you are either effectively blocking passing lanes or pressing them in midfield (which isn't a bad thing btw) - so their only option is to go backwards and sideways, running rings around your lone striker.

Put these two things together - like it.  Formation is creating a trap in wrong area of the pitch.  That's good analysis right there.

[goku4]

24 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

 

Put these two things together - like it.  Formation is creating a trap in wrong area of the pitch.  That's good analysis right there.

So you think that the 4123 does not allow that kind of pressing what I have described here?

[Robson 07]

Your formation is "trapping" teams in the white rectangles.  Look at how out numbered you might me in that area.  Teams can't break out the rectangle but they can keep possession in it.

You could try and get your midfielders in the rectangle by using roles like ball winning mids or having an AM.  I doubt Mezzalas and Playmakers in a defensive sense are going to cut it.

@herne79 can speak for himself but I think this is what he is trying to tell you.

[afailed10]

The simple solution for high possession against weak teams in FM20 is to not use a 4141 but to change to 2 strikers like a 442 or even a 4231.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

In addition to BWMs or an AM, I've had some measure of success with both the CM-A and B2B roles when it comes to having four pressing up front. They tend to be in more advanced positions when you lose possession and thus able to join in the press sooner.

Against this sort of opposition have you considered pushing the DLP into the CM strata? 

[goku4]

51 minutes ago, afailed10 said:

The simple solution for high possession against weak teams in FM20 is to not use a 4141 but to change to 2 strikers like a 442 or even a 4231.

This, actually is what convinced me finally after like 6 seasons in my current save. I really could not get the 4141 work against these weaker teams. Especially when they play with 3 centre backs, my striker runs like a headless chicken. If I tell him not to do it the centre backs just play to each other. Either a scnd striker or an AMC is, what I hope at least, the solution... Also what would be the best way to tell the AMR/AML to not press the centre backs but rather stay closer to the opposition full backs in the opposition third only?