Why are players so stupidly disloyal?

[LetsNotScoreGoals]

I'm so absolutely effing sick of having to sell players every season. I'm trying to peacefully play my game, build a team, and invent stories for my players. But it doesn't matter how much game time I give them, how much wage I give them, how many trophies and medals I let them take home.

Those bastars want to leave for every B team that comes knocking on their door. Arsenal, who hasn't won anything in the past ten years! Yes please! PSG, whom we beat every single time we meet them in continental competition? Say no more! Even bloody Watford had a go and there was nothing I could do.

I've looked it up and the only "solution" was to bench them until the interest goes away but that's dumb as hell. I kept a guy for a year but he never stopped being upset and I still had to sell him. I sent another guy into the U19s for half a season and even though interest waned he stopped coming to training.

I swear this game just hates you. The players and clubs all wish the worst for you. There's no dialogue options or anything you can do to appease them. You just really have to empty out your squad every season. Like a prostitute getting bummed by every club that wants in.

[FrazT]

What team are you managing?  Ambitious players will always be attracted to teams that have a higher reputation than your team or are playing in a higher reputation league.  Players also may want to challenge themselves playing against better players but keeping them happy is part of the job

[LetsNotScoreGoals]

26 minutes ago, FrazT said:

What team are you managing?  Ambitious players will always be attracted to teams that have a higher reputation than your team or are playing in a higher reputation league.  Players also may want to challenge themselves playing against better players but keeping them happy is part of the job

I'm playing Palermo, long term save 8 years in. Multiple Serie A, Champion's League, among other titles under my belt already. Best club in the world according to ranks.

The thing that also makes me annoyed is that Serie A is still apparently behind EPL and La Liga in rankings although Napoli and Milan traded Europa titles for a few years and I faced Inter twice in a row in the Champion's Cup finals. Maybe being second behind EPL will be acceptable but I don't understand how the game thinks La Liga (Barca and Real fell out of continental competition early more often than not) is still ahead of Serie A.

In any case, there's no reason for any of them to be unhappy. They've got their glory. They've got ludicrous wages. They've got playing time and a great squad to play with.

[Norfair]

2 hours ago, FrazT said:

What team are you managing?  Ambitious players will always be attracted to teams that have a higher reputation than your team or are playing in a higher reputation league.  Players also may want to challenge themselves playing against better players but keeping them happy is part of the job

Nah, it's literally just bugged sometimes. I've been sitting atop the reputation ladder with Everton for 30 seasons and players still do to me what the OP is writing about. They say they want to join better teams and it gets ridiculous when they want to join a team that we literally just beat in the CL final some weeks ago. In the alternate universe that is my savefile, it should be well established that my Everton side is the best football team that's ever existed, and joining a better team simply isn't possible on this planet.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Norfair
a word

[Mattias333]

Generally that’s just life. If a player even gets a sniff from his agent that <insert generic team name here> A ‘big’ club is interested, they’ll want to leave. Wouldn’t you? If you were at a club you may like, achieved success with etc, but have absolutely no deep lying love for (an maybe still even if you do) if a big club comes sniffing you’re head would get turned by the stature of the club an the money you could make. If you worked in an office for 1.5k a month but then a London Tesco came enquiring Offering you 5k a month to do the same thing in a better, air conditioned, fancy store you’d jump at the chance or atleast think about it.  
 

Look at ncfc in real life. Relegated from the prem with a sea of youthful talent. Everyone one of them had links away an a handful managed to get their moves back to the prem with Jamal Lewis to Newcastle an Ben Godfrey for Everton. max Aaron’s was genuinely linked with Barcelona an Bayern Munich, if that doesn’t turn your head I dunno what would. Local lad Todd Cantwell well an truly got His head turned by Leeds to the point that Daniel Farke said he couldn’t pick him for the team as he wasn’t focused. 
 

my advice that usually works for me on fm. Private chat, tell them you’ll only let them go if a team offers ‘x’ amount. Find some middle ground on the amount an then sit back and pray nobody offers it. Quite often though once I get to that point I don’t care if someone does offer as it’ll usually be a crazy price that I’m happy with. Just how it goes until your clubs rep reaches ridiculous levels an despite winning multiple comps Etc that can still take a huge amount of time to increase that rep.  

[Norfair]

10 minutes ago, Mattias333 said:

Generally that’s just life. If a player even gets a sniff from his agent that <insert generic team name here> A ‘big’ club is interested, they’ll want to leave. Wouldn’t you? If you were at a club you may like, achieved success with etc, but have absolutely no deep lying love for (an maybe still even if you do) if a big club comes sniffing you’re head would get turned by the stature of the club an the money you could make. If you worked in an office for 1.5k a month but then a London Tesco came enquiring Offering you 5k a month to do the same thing in a better, air conditioned, fancy store you’d jump at the chance or atleast think about it.  
 

This would make sense if these criteria weren't already met at the player's current club. But a player who is already on super high wages, loves the manager, loves the club (which is far and away the biggest club in the world) can get vocal if he doesn't get to leave, for the reason that he wants to join a bigger club. It's just dumb and no one can convince me the game isn't bugged when it comes to this.

[samdiatmh]

and sometimes they'll just want a new challenge

personally I don't see why you'd leave a "stroll to the title while winning CL football and the ClubWorldCup" for a "team in same division struggling to qualify for Europe" - but that's the situation I found myself in after a while,
dominating all competitions isn't all it's cracked up to be - some players just prefer the "build the club up off their own foot", which you can't fault them for doing

plus, you also see players IRL joining because of certain factors, 
your Everton side might have been all-dominant for 30 years, but some people will still see "playing at Bernabeu" as the pinnacle of their career
heck, Cristiano did it when he swapped ManUtd for RealMadrid IRL (apparently that's a bug), and then again did it a few years ago when he joined Juventus
it's also the case with Brewster leaving Liverpool to go to SheffUtd

Players do weird things IRL, and it's kinda good that the "world max rep side" isn't some almighty cheat code for attracting players (although it certainly helps) - some people have different ambitions for their own career

if the OP is selling players as soon as another team puts a bid in, then you've essentially marketed your club as a stepping stone - put your foot down and keep some of your better players (so you can build that story)
Arsenal/PSG don't sign 500 players a window, they have a list of players to work through - if 50m isn't enough, then reject it and move on with your life, they'll find that role eventually

[santy001]

A number of your own attributes as manager are influenced by the decisions you make. You have to refuse the demands, or at least manage them to a fee you know clubs won't sell at. It can take a few seasons but you can find yourself reaching a point where players will backdown with you in most situations.

It means you need to keep on top of contracts and such of course or you risk losing the player for free, but if you're a weak-willed manager in the face of demands then your manager attributes will reflect this.

---

For me, the journey up is a lot of compromising, a lot of selling players before their prime and bringing in new talent to replace them. It's giving players new contracts regularly and so on.

Then at the top, I become a tyrant. My wage budget winning my first title will in most games probably be double what it is by the time I win my 10th title, and that team will be much better.

[forameuss]

4 minutes ago, santy001 said:

Then at the top, I become a tyrant. My wage budget winning my first title will in most games probably be double what it is by the time I win my 10th title, and that team will be much better.

I think this ends up being the problem.  It's far too easy at these levels to be like that.  My manager essentially does not give in to anyone.  Vast majority of occasions, the first reply is reasonable, then if there's any comeback they're shown the door.  If any are angry after that, there doesn't appear to be any kind of repercussions to just leaving them to stew.  

[Mattias333]

52 minutes ago, Norfair said:

This would make sense if these criteria weren't already met at the player's current club. But a player who is already on super high wages, loves the manager, loves the club (which is far and away the biggest club in the world) can get vocal if he doesn't get to leave, for the reason that he wants to join a bigger club. It's just dumb and no one can convince me the game isn't bugged when it comes to this.

Ok sorry for giving an explanation. Just how it works. Even at perceived big clubs. If the other clubs rep is bigger it just happens. Also so many other factors. Some players just fancy a change. Especially if already achieved or been at club a while 

[RBKalle]

1 ora fa, samdiatmh ha scritto:

and sometimes they'll just want a new challenge

And we have "wants a new challenge" Concern with "feels he has achieved everything he could at the club" as motivation.

 

1 ora fa, samdiatmh ha scritto:

personally I don't see why you'd leave a "stroll to the title while winning CL football and the ClubWorldCup" for a "team in same division struggling to qualify for Europe" - but that's the situation I found myself in after a while,
dominating all competitions isn't all it's cracked up to be - some players just prefer the "build the club up off their own foot", which you can't fault them for doing

The game seems to fail to fully recognize the huge shift in the balance of power. So despite Max Rep and the #1 spot in every possible ranking, your all-conquering Stockport County will still be overshadowed by all kind of fallen giants. Or even by Europa League-level clubs for some reason.

I'd be fine with players wanting to leave to get more playing time, to become the Big Fish in a smaller pond or for any other reason that "wants to move to a bigger club where there's NO bigger club than the one they want to leave.

 

1 ora fa, samdiatmh ha scritto:

plus, you also see players IRL joining because of certain factors, 
your Everton side might have been all-dominant for 30 years, but some people will still see "playing at Bernabeu" as the pinnacle of their career

But that makes sense as long as Bernabeu is the stadium where a Top Club plays. If Real has become "CL knockout round filler" in FM gameworld, is it still worth considering playing at Bernabeu a career highlight?

Like, from the late 80s til the early 2000s, AC Milan was a world-class club and players would have paid to play at a packed San Siro alongside Maldini, Van Basten, Kaká or Pirlo. And then the club fell from grace and they had to chase players like Destro and Borini, plus a plethora of aging free agents. But San Siro was still the same awesome stadium with a hot crowd.... the difference was there was little to play for, so it wasn't as attractive as it once was.

FM fails to recreate that, meaning your Quadruple-winning striker will raise a fuss because he wants to join PSG or Barça and procede to have the domestic cup as the biggest goal of the season from now on.

 

1 ora fa, samdiatmh ha scritto:

heck, Cristiano did it when he swapped ManUtd for RealMadrid IRL (apparently that's a bug), and then again did it a few years ago when he joined Juventus

CR7 falls straight into the "wants a new challenge" category IMO.

 

1 ora fa, samdiatmh ha scritto:

it's also the case with Brewster leaving Liverpool to go to SheffUtd

That's just Liverpool selling a (former) hot prospect (who's suffered a serious injury already) while keeping an eye on him should he reach his alleged potential.

Actually that doesn't happen often enough in FM unless the player has a high PA and he'll be in high demand almost regardless of his attributes and performances, but that's another story for another time.

1 ora fa, samdiatmh ha scritto:

Players do weird things IRL, and it's kinda good that the "world max rep side" isn't some almighty cheat code for attracting players (although it certainly helps) - some people have different ambitions for their own career

if the OP is selling players as soon as another team puts a bid in, then you've essentially marketed your club as a stepping stone - put your foot down and keep some of your better players (so you can build that story)
Arsenal/PSG don't sign 500 players a window, they have a list of players to work through - if 50m isn't enough, then reject it and move on with your life, they'll find that role eventually

That's the right strategy.

Don't give in to their demands. They may be upset for a while but then the wins and the trophies will remind them why they'd stay put instead of leaving for a bigger worse club.

[Freakiie]

Players might complain a lot and sometimes nonsensically, but if you put your foot down it's stupidly easy to keep nearly every player. Even if you're a small club you can easily hold on to your big talent, let alone if you're an actually big club.

[Norfair]

7 hours ago, Mattias333 said:

Ok sorry for giving an explanation. Just how it works. Even at perceived big clubs. If the other clubs rep is bigger it just happens. Also so many other factors. Some players just fancy a change. Especially if already achieved or been at club a while 

I've already said twice that my club has the best reputation in the world. I've also stated that they want to leave to play for a bigger club, not for a new challenge. If it were a new challenge, I wouldn't think it was very strange, it happens. But specifically wanting to leave for what they think is a better and bigger side is ludicrous when they're already at a club that has won the CL the last 6 or 7 years straight (and many times before that as well) and the domestic Premier League for god only knows how many times straight. You cannot say this reasoning is normal in any way, stop defending FM, it isn't perfectly programmed.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Norfair
a word

[fivetwelvepony]

I have recently run into the exact opposite problem. I have a couple of unambitious players who are perfectly content to just sit there, cashing paychecks. I've got some good youngsters coming in, and I'm ready to sell the old guard. But these buggers have rejected contract offers from Barcelona and Real Madrid after I negotiated transfer fees of around $100m each.  

[IbrahimAliMaher]

The trick I've sussed out in Fm19 at least is if you receive an offer (particularly close to the transfer deadline) then accept it but add a 'sign a replacement first' clause. Then I sit back and do literally sod all, the deadline comes and goes and the player stays. Yes they may be a little miffed their 'dream' move didn't happen but hey, they generally get over it.

[Prokopije]

I think it's one of random events which game throw to torment us. It will happen no matter what. Conditions are not relevant for those.  I had one youngster, put him in first team, where he played EVERY SINGLE GAME from august to december. Winter came, mercato opened, some crap lower division club offered to loan him, I rejected, he got mad at me because I blocked his loan move which could help him to "increase his playing time". I mean, seriously? Are they playing 3 halftimes there?

But I noticed that level of discipline have lot with frequvency of those. I usualy had it on 15, game was pouring those stuff at me every month, but in my newest save I set it to 20, and I have 2 or 3 such events per season.

 

[The Gold Guard]

My tips are don't EVER get sentimental with players and know there is always a South American a search filter away...

[epicrecruit]

12 hours ago, Freakiie said:

Players might complain a lot and sometimes nonsensically, but if you put your foot down it's stupidly easy to keep nearly every player. Even if you're a small club you can easily hold on to your big talent, let alone if you're an actually big club.

But then they have Abysmal morale for the rest of the season, and lower morale for the teammates who support them

 

  

19 hours ago, LetsNotScoreGoals said:

I'm so absolutely effing sick of having to sell players every season.

As someone who's using the editor to inspect the loyalty of every potential signing, I can tell you that 19 out of 20 players are disloyal ****ers. Which mirrors reality. In your case you're complaining about the realism of leaving a new top club for a fallen giant, and that's fair...but them wanting to leave is .

Modern player:

"I did what was expected of me this season. I want a new contract."

"I spent my 1st year injured, then recovered did what was expected of me the 2nd season. I want a new contract  / let me leave  to a bigger club."

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by epicrecruit

[Freakiie]

3 minutes ago, epicrecruit said:

But then they have Abysmal morale for the rest of the season, and lower morale for the teammates who support them

Hardly, 9/10 times they shut up once the transfer period is over and the one club they really wanted to go to doesn't show major interest anymore. Then another 3 months and they're perfectly happy to sign a new contract again, being stuck with you for another 5 years and then when they're 33 and over the top they wonder how the hell they played for the same club their entire career.

[epicrecruit]

3 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

Hardly, 9/10 times they shut up once the transfer period is over and the one club they really wanted to go to doesn't show major interest anymore. Then another 3 months and they're perfectly happy to sign a new contract again, being stuck with you for another 5 years and then when they're 33 and over the top they wonder how the hell they played for the same club their entire career.

OK, I've been giving in to avoid morale issues. I'll try being 'ard next transfer season.

I've been avoiding morale issue because my only experience so far, they last forever, and I didn't want a repeat. One summer I signed a very good youth, and he made a condition that I would send him on loan somewhere. During the summer I decided instead to make him a regular starter. He wanted to leave the club because I broke his trust. I played him in several summer matches, and then nearly every match. I became his favorite personnel. But he still kept his "wants to leave the club / abysmal morale" status until the next summer.

[Freakiie]

15 minutes ago, epicrecruit said:

OK, I've been giving in to avoid morale issues. I'll try being 'ard next transfer season.

I've been avoiding morale issue because my only experience so far, they last forever, and I didn't want a repeat. One summer I signed a very good youth, and he made a condition that I would send him on loan somewhere. During the summer I decided instead to make him a regular starter. He wanted to leave the club because I broke his trust. I played him in several summer matches, and then nearly every match. I became his favorite personnel. But he still kept his "wants to leave the club / abysmal morale" status until the next summer.

Yeah, messing with promises can get you into a lot of trouble and is a different story. As long as you don't promise a player that he can actually leave under X circumstances though and you have been at the club long enough that most players there like you, you're generally fine with not giving in regarding transfer demands. Sometimes you still get some people that won't shut up, especially ones that haven't been with you that long, but there's definitely no need to sell players the moment they come knocking on your door.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Love threads like this where the person complaining about players leaving for other clubs is unrealistic whilst taking No Mark FC to multiple domestic and European titles within 8 seasons is perfectly legit 

[Norfair]

4 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Love threads like this where the person complaining about players leaving for other clubs is unrealistic whilst taking No Mark FC to multiple domestic and European titles within 8 seasons is perfectly legit 

So what? That's out of the dev's hands, a human manager will always be able to outsmart an AI manager and see holes in the game design and take advantage of them accordingly. That doesn't mean his complaint is any less valid.

[Dagenham_Dave]

3 hours ago, Norfair said:

So what? That's out of the dev's hands, a human manager will always be able to outsmart an AI manager and see holes in the game design and take advantage of them accordingly. That doesn't mean his complaint is any less valid.

So, if that is 'holes in the game design', why isn't he complaining about that? I'll answer that for you. People only moan about flaws in the game when things aren't going their way. Always been the same, always will be. 

[Norfair]

5 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

So, if that is 'holes in the game design', why isn't he complaining about that? I'll answer that for you. People only moan about flaws in the game when things aren't going their way. Always been the same, always will be. 

There are plenty posts on this forum complaining that "the game is too easy", surely someone who has as many posts as you would acknowledge that. But just because people can pick those holes in the design doesn't mean all other complaints - like this one - are automatically invalidated.

[sverige91]

And when they get there, many then become unhappy because of playing time, they were never good as they thought. I have told many player that they wont play much there but "blocking my dream move", there should be an interaction where you say "i told you so!". I resigned that player for same money and played him 2 season and again same team came back, it was same saga again. Like Ibrahimovic/Toure signing for Barca again. Interactions should be logical there "You remember what happened last time?" 

 

 

"People only moan about flaws in the game when things aren't going their way. Always been the same, always will be. " Some people always defend the game with their life, even though bugs forum is full. Always defend the game, always will be defending the game. 

[Harper]

I'd actually like it if more of my players were "looking for a new challenge" after winning a title or having won two titles in three years or something. There should be an "open to new challenge, but happy to stay and fight for more silverware" middle ground.

I'd also appreciate if after winning a title or CL, or even just overachieving, that some of the historically larger clubs would come in with larger than expected bids for my players; like Madrid going for Jovic, Arsenal's failed move for Vardy, Chelsea for Kante. Backup players agitating for moves that might be a step down if it means getting significantly more game time.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Harper

[Dagenham_Dave]

5 minutes ago, sverige91 said:

even though bugs forum is full. 

90% of which won't actually be bugs. 

[sverige91]

7 minutes ago, Harper said:

I'd actually like it if more of my players were "looking for a new challenge" after winning a title or having won two titles in three years or something. There should be an "open to new challenge, but happy to stay and fight for me silverware" middle ground.

I'd also appreciate if after winning a title or CL, or even just overachieving, that some of the historically larger clubs would come in with larger than expected bids for my players; like Madrid going for Jovic, Arsenal's failed move for Vardy, Chelsea for Kante. Backup players agitating for moves that might be a step down if it means getting significantly more game time.

These things are very normal and I accept that. My topscorer from Fiorentina going to Juventus, but his CA was 136 and all The Juventus forward were 160+. They should atleast think, will they be playing more there? Or maybe Juventus should not stock piling players and move them to u23 after some months. 

For the thread starter i understand his point, they have the best club and there should be an option that "you already are at the best club" - maybe unlocking after you reach there. Right now they have only 8-9 standard responses. Maybe add more options to pursue a player to stay. 

[Norfair]

2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

90% of which won't actually be bugs. 

Oh just stop. If I took the time and wrote down a comprehensive list over things in the game that are either bugged, outdated, bad coding or unrealistic, the list would be damn near endless. Now, most of these aren't (for me) game breaking, but your tone seems to suggest that people's complaints aren't valid. Beyond all the "why did I lose this game when I had so many more shots" etc type of complaints, people have a ton of legit complaints about this game. It's very playable, but also very far from perfect.

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, Norfair said:

Oh just stop. If I took the time and wrote down a comprehensive list over things in the game that are either bugged, outdated, bad coding or unrealistic, the list would be damn near endless. Now, most of these aren't (for me) game breaking, but your tone seems to suggest that people's complaints aren't valid. Beyond all the "why did I lose this game when I had so many more shots" etc type of complaints, people have a ton of legit complaints about this game. It's very playable, but also very far from perfect.

It's not perfect, no computer game is, but I would seriously estimate the vast majority of issues raised in that part of the forum are down to people misunderstanding how the game works. Ok, maybe not 90%, that was slight hyperbole for comic effect, but I'd still say it was a large majority. Also, the same issue is often raised multiple times. 

[sverige91]

16 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

90% of which won't actually be bugs. 

Yes, we all are waiting for Phil Jones to comeback from Injury and score for Manchester because Martial/Rashford/Cavani are having bit of 1v1 issue vs the goalkeeper, but that is Ole and his tactics fault, Why should we care? 

But there are bugs and we should NOT expect a bugfree game, it cant happen. But they should be worked on, they should not be left like this. If you compare this and old version, this one have most complains started with 1v1, moved on AMC, set-peice defending then 2 ST putting pressure and then the club vision, board getting dissapointed about their signings, new promoted side cant play attacking football "they only way to play FM20" - list is long, these things are still managable but things that concern ME should never be left in this state. Sorry for being sarcastic 😁

[Dagenham_Dave]

The only actual bugs in what you've mentioned above are the 1v1s which was fixed relatively early and the set piece defending which inexplicably hasn't. 

I don't think the club vision was bugged per se (at least not extensively), it was just the usual teething issues of any major new feature. Look how more solid dynamics is now compared to FM18 when it was first introduced. There was also a lot of user misunderstanding there too. It'll be more robust this year. 

This myth about 4231 gegenpress being the only way you can play FM20 is nonsense. I've had a lot of success this year and never once used that style of football. 

[sverige91]

8 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The only actual bugs in what you've mentioned above are the 1v1s which was fixed relatively early and the set piece defending which inexplicably hasn't. 

I don't think the club vision was bugged per se (at least not extensively), it was just the usual teething issues of any major new feature. Look how more solid dynamics is now compared to FM18 when it was first introduced. There was also a lot of user misunderstanding there too. It'll be more robust this year. 

This myth about 4231 gegenpress being the only way you can play FM20 is nonsense. I've had a lot of success this year and never once used that style of football. 

They have acknowledged the bugs with Club vision & 1v1 is still not working. They usually tell us about percentage around 25-33% but what they dont tell is about opposition. I want my striker to score 1v1 vs Liverpool when it matters not against home vs Bristol Rovers where they take all The 5 chances but they missed around 4 vs Liverpool in the match before. They should score when it matters not score against league 2 sides, just to make up for that 25-33% Chance. They still cannot describe or tell us how mentoring works, and the standard response is "You are the manager"- Yes i am but it still not having that much of impact, You should tell us more about which personalties call me mentored or what factor have most impact? Position based, social group based? Unit based? Why is sometimes high influential players have significant influence or other Times average? 

My point is if you introduce a feature, You should be sure that it is working but if people still having problems with it, You release maybe an official not "You are the manager, You decide" 

[IbrahimAliMaher]

13 hours ago, sverige91 said:

These things are very normal and I accept that. My topscorer from Fiorentina going to Juventus, but his CA was 136 and all The Juventus forward were 160+. They should atleast think, will they be playing more there? Or maybe Juventus should not stock piling players and move them to u23 after some months. 

So if you were say, Martin Braithwaite and you got the call from Barca to sign for them, you would stop and think 'huh I'm not as good as Messi, Suarez, Griezmann or Fati so I'll just stay put and turn down this €50k a week wage hike'?

[sverige91]

Is he complaining in Media for playing time? Is he training with u23 squad? Is he not registered for la liga? He knew that he would be a backup.