Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?

[Ivan787]

I think that are different items.

If I manage Inter, as every year, and playing the game basically (which means no editor, no FMRTE, no genie scout, no downloaded tactic etc etc....) and I beat Bayern 5-0 in CL, Juventus 4-0 and MIlan 4-0 in Serie A with statistics like shots 20-2 I think this is unrealistic.

Ok, I can make the game harder playing with a low team, a Serie B team, perhaps a League Two team. Ok, I understand. But it doesn'matter. This not change that Inter - Bayern 5-0 with 20-2 shots in completely unrealistic.

[Junkhead]

11 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

This not change that Inter - Bayern 5-0 with 20-2 shots in completely unrealistic.

AI Inter don't do that to AI Bayern.  I think this is the point. If a human way of playing out of the box means this happens, why isn't the AI set up to do the same?

It's not about making it arbitrarily harder, it's about making the AI better.

 

 

[Mars_Blackmon]

4 hours ago, Icy said:

I gave you extreme changes so you could understand they are there for you to use if you want, just to prove that there are in game tools to make it harder. If you don't want to use them, then probably you won't want to use difficulty levels either if they are ever added to the game, as following your same way of thinking, it will be unrealistic to play the game in "very hard" while real managers play in "normal".

But it doesn't make it harder. I'm not new to FM. I've tries these things and I'm sure others have as well. 

 

I'm at the point where i don't make any custom tactics and play head coach mode meaning Indont handle any transfers (only using the target feature)

Yet I'm undefeated with Oxford City after 10 games. There is something technically wrong with the game that Sunday league with no badges will not fix...

[stoned_assasin]

I've only played with lower league teams now for many many years as i always found being my fav club Arsenal or any other half decent club was always too easy so in a way feel forced to manage at a MUCH lower level. Highest league ive probably started in is league 2 in the last 10+ years. Although this helps i do miss managing some of the big guns and if anything if your plan is to take a very small club all the way into the CL then in many ways the small club route ends up being much worse once you get there. Once you have that many seasons to build the squad by yourself you will soon realise that the AI squads get worse while yours obviously gets better meaning once you reach your target of CL with a small club after some years getting there, it ends up being easier than if you started with a big team in the 1st place. So although its an answer to manage smaller clubs and start lower but in the long run this can very easily make the end situation even worse.

Edited November 18, 2020 by stoned_assasin

[rp1966]

10 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

AI Inter don't do that to AI Bayern.  I think this is the point. If a human way of playing out of the box means this happens, why isn't the AI set up to do the same?

 

 

To answer that you need to ask "what is the human player doing different to the AI manager?".  The follow up question is "Within the constraints of processing 1000s of matches on moderately spec'd PCs, can the 'AI' adopt similar strategies?"

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by rp1966

[Erimus1876]

6 hours ago, The Basque said:

Since half an decade we have an outstanding good database (not that much high potential players like in the past) but unfortunately an easy game. 

The point is, that there is absolutely no need to use all the beautiful stats etc. to find the right solutions for performance issues of the own team. 

I would love a game which makes it necessary to use all the instruments FM gives us. 

 

You've hit the nail on the head here.   SI pride themselves on the statistical side of the game, with how those stats are presented, what they collate, and how they can help the player during their journey.  But the reality is you can completely ignore all that work the devs put into the game, and end up dominating your save regardless, because certain factors - often ones we can't control - have far more influence on your gameworld as it develops.  Stats, form tables, player personality etc... its all just 'fluff' because overpowered morale, flawed AI tactics, and woeful AI squad building massively weights everything toward the human players eventual success.  As a consequence, a lot of the new bells and whistles that pass themselves off as headline features become completely irrelevant.

Heck, I've used a modded skin since the FM12 days, one that completely hides actual player attribute numbers, and one that brings a LOT more ambiguity to the game when I'm squad building.  I never study the background stats in any detail, never have.  I set handicaps for myself, and even stick to default tactics to try my best to avoid any of the known match logic exploits that people quickly expose, version after version, and still the game gets easier with every iteration. 

Its disheartening reading this thread with how the beta is looking, but "the games too easy" argument is an old one, this same convo was had during the FM12, FM13, FM14 days etc.. it seems little has changed and SI still haven't been able to balance it... or maybe them making a game that's a big challenge to succeed at, is bad for business?   They'd get far more complaints if it was too hard, and that's the bottom line imo.

[craigmoore02]

On the whole I'd like the game to be left fairly close to how it is. The common player doesn't necessarily want harder difficulties to games like this. The silent majority will just be playing their saves and getting on with it. I've won a lot of matches in the Beta but I wouldn't necessarily say it was "too easy". It's not like every game I've swept it 4-0 or 5-0. I've had a lot of 2-0s, 2-1s or 1-0s. And they're matches I've specifically looked at and gone "how would I approach winning this match in real life with this team..." I didn't just find some tactical exploit (accidentally or otherwise) and hit continue for 6 hours.

While I'm on the subject of exploits I just don't understand the thought process behind doing that. It's odd to want to go outside the normal parameters. This game is still people's work that they've put effort into and people just come along and try to break the boundaries. It's like someone making a cupboard for you and you smashing it with a hammer to see how robust it is. It's rude.

Some of the goals I've seen on the Beta, for and against, have been absolutely beautiful aesthetically. That's the really enjoyable part.

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Erimus1876:

You've hit the nail on the head here.   SI pride themselves on the statistical side of the game, with how those stats are presented, what they collate, and how they can help the player during their journey.  But the reality is you can completely ignore all that work the devs put into the game, and end up dominating your save regardless because certain factors - often ones we can't control - have far more influence on your gameworld as it develops.  Stats, form tables, player personality etc... its all just 'fluff' because overpowered morale, flawed AI tactics, and woeful AI squad building massively weights everything toward the human players eventual success.  A lot of the new bells and whistles that pass themselves off as headline features become completely irrelevant.

Heck, I've used a modded skin since the FM12 days, one that completely hides actual player attribute numbers, and one that brings a LOT more ambiguity to the game when I'm squad building.  I never study the background stats in any detail, never have.  I set handicaps for myself, and even stick to default tactics to try as best to avoid any of the known match logic exploits that people quickly expose, version after version, and still the game gets easier with every iteration. 

Its disheartening reading this thread with how the beta is looking, but "the games too easy" argument is an old one, this same convo was had during the FM12, FM13, FM14 days etc.. it seems little has changed and SI still haven't been able to balance it... or maybe them making a game that's a big challenge to succeed at, is bad for business?   They'd get far more complaints if it was too hard, and that the bottom line imo.

I am repeating myself again and again....If you load all leagues playable and with full detail. The simulation is very realistic. Almost nobody does that or even know how this mechanics works. This leads to a unbalanced ingame-world and a lot of frustration. So many people in this thread are complaining it's too easy and compare themselfes with others. It's not as objective as people think, because of all these different settings.

 

Cheers 

Daveincid

[RandomGuy.]

Want to make it harder?

Remove star ratings, and numerical values from scouting reports, and nerf how accurate scouts are at predicting potential. Force players development to take longer, so most players don't peak until 27-28.

Easy to build a God Squad when every player you sign is guaranteed to become a star player at your level within 12 months.

AI tactics are always more negative in the beta, probably so certain things can be stress tested by the masses.

[Erimus1876]

37 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

I am repeating myself again and again....If you load all leagues playable and with full detail. The simulation is very realistic. Almost nobody does that or even know how this mechanics works. This leads to a unbalanced ingame-world and a lot of frustration. So many people in this thread are complaining it's too easy and compare themselfes with others. It's not as objective as people think, because of all these different settings.

 

Cheers 

Daveincid

You can repeat yourself as many times as you like, but that is not the solution.  The game is 20 years old, you would have thought in all that time it would have evolved to the point where it can offer a challenge whether you simulate everything to nth degree or not!  And your 'solution' isn't a practical one anyway, as not everyone has the hardware to set up a game in that depth and keep it running along at a sensible pace after X many seasons.

For the record, I personally do have very large saves - full simulation in many leagues, and active lower leagues, with close on 100K player databases loaded, and it doesn't make the difference you're trying to make it out to have.  Success is inevitable because the AI will never ever be able to outthink the player, nor will it experiment, take risks or attempt fundamental new strategies when struggling... it'll plod on within certain constraints and parameters season after season, while the human player adapts and 'works things out', and builds for the future.  That's video games in a nutshell - its not just an FM issue.   There is no simple solution, whether you want to simulate your world in full or not.

[dannysheard]

21 minutes ago, Erimus1876 said:

You've hit the nail on the head here.   SI pride themselves on the statistical side of the game, with how those stats are presented, what they collate, and how they can help the player during their journey.  But the reality is you can completely ignore all that work the devs put into the game, and end up dominating your save regardless because certain factors - often ones we can't control - have far more influence on your gameworld as it develops.  Stats, form tables, player personality etc... its all just 'fluff' because overpowered morale, flawed AI tactics, and woeful AI squad building massively weights everything toward the human players eventual success.  A lot of the new bells and whistles that pass themselves off as headline features become completely irrelevant.

Heck, I've used a modded skin since the FM12 days, one that completely hides actual player attribute numbers, and one that brings a LOT more ambiguity to the game when I'm squad building.  I never study the background stats in any detail, never have.  I set handicaps for myself, and even stick to default tactics to try as best to avoid any of the known match logic exploits that people quickly expose, version after version, and still the game gets easier with every iteration. 

Its disheartening reading this thread with how the beta is looking, but "the games too easy" argument is an old one, this same convo was had during the FM12, FM13, FM14 days etc.. it seems little has changed and SI still haven't been able to balance it... or maybe them making a game that's a big challenge to succeed at, is bad for business?   They'd get far more complaints if it was too hard, and that's the bottom line imo.

Out of interest, which skin do you use?

[Mars_Blackmon]

57 minutes ago, rp1966 said:

The only thing that will truly make for a more challenging experience, keeping a balanced game world, is a better 'AI'.  I'm sure SI are working on that, but to give the 'AI' managers better decision making within the performance constraints of processing 1000s of matches is not going to be an easy task.

If you want a difficult levels set by nerfing player stats or buffing the stats of computer teams then use the editor to do so for your game.

In the meantime - the balance of the game will always be set to allow the average human player to slightly overachieve - that's just good business sense for SI.

I think the 'difficulty level' crowd miss the point that FM is not a player-centric game; it is a game world into which the human player is inserted.  The balance is set to give reasonably realistic outcomes for the 'Ai' managers. 

All strategy games are the same - if you have a well worked strategy for the game once you have addressed weaknesses in your starting position and consolidated every game proceeds the same way unless you consciously decide to change it (e.g. role playing).

What do Cities: Skylines players do when they've mastered the management aspects? They treat the game as a sandbox. What do FM players do when they've mastered the management aspects....?

You don't need to be a master strategist in FM when all the AI manager does is sit back and defend just because they are on the road (even when they are ahead of you in the standings in most cases) i doubt fixing that takes massive processing power as well...

[Junkhead]

3 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

Out of interest, which skin do you use?

Tried to find this last year, but you could see the numbers in other areas (like set pieces) so didn't bother. Would love a skin that removed the numbers and the star ratings completely.

[Icy]

hace 7 minutos, dannysheard dijo:

Out of interest, which skin do you use?

I proposed something related to that, to chose the accuracy that you want in the attributes that you see, hope it will be considered as it would act also as a customizable difficulty level.

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Icy

[Mars_Blackmon]

20 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

I am repeating myself again and again....If you load all leagues playable and with full detail. The simulation is very realistic. Almost nobody does that or even know how this mechanics works. This leads to a unbalanced ingame-world and a lot of frustration. So many people in this thread are complaining it's too easy and compare themselfes with others. It's not as objective as people think, because of all these different settings.

 

Cheers 

Daveincid

I've been playing this way since FM11.

 

i agree it results in better squad building than not having all leagues loaded and not in full detail but it doesn't fix any loop holes to get great players on cheaper contracts and fees or even fix problems with how the AI competes against you in matches.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb Erimus1876:

You can repeat yourself as many tiles as you like, but that is not the solution.  The game is 20 years old, you would have thought in all that time it would have evolved to the point where it can offer a challenge whether you simulate everything to nth degree or not!  And your 'solution' isn't a practical one anyway, as not everyone has the hardware to set up a game in that depth and keep it running along at a sensible pace after X many seasons.

For the record, I personally do have very large saves - full simulation in many leagues, and active lower leagues, with close close on 100K players databases loaded, and it doesn't make the difference you're trying to make it out to have.  Success is inevitable because the AI will never ever be able to outthink the player, nor will it experiment, takes risks or attempt fundamental new strategies when struggling... it'll plod on within certain constraints and parameter, while the human player adapts and 'works things out'.  That's video games in a nutshell - its not just an FM issue.   There is no simple solution, whether you want to simulate your world in full or not.

I haven't said it's a practical solution at all. FM is still a very demanding game if your goal is realism, it's hard to play it without a very good CPU.  And you are also right that there is no practical solution for most users.

The AI is limited in their decision by the player. For exampe.: If you load only enlgand playable, nothing else, or almost nothing else. The human manager will see all players in scouting to strengthen his own team, the AI can't so they will loose more the longer you play. Players morale, fitness, development will be shown better in the human managers league, again...AI is limited by the player.  So I made different experiences about that impact than you. 

So for me its more like this: The game is too easy because it would be too demandig for my PC to simulate everything realisticly. And not: The game is too easy, tweak the match-engine, it's SI's fault. 

I hope people see's it as a constructive statement. That's the goal of it

[Erimus1876]

23 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

Out of interest, which skin do you use?

Its actually a mod that you can add to any skin...

 

Open any file in the players folder with attribute in it and add the following line...

<record id="widget_info" class="attribute_label" alignment="right,centre_y" size="0" style="semi_bold" multiline="false"/>  

It literally shrinks the attribute text to 0 size, so you can no longer see them, you just get an inkling of a players strengths and weaknesses (skill-wise).  There was one that hid PA stars too, but I haven't been able to make it work on anything after FM17.

 

Its not ideal, but these are the kind of fog of war options SI should consider adding as options in preferences.  They won't fix 'the games too easy' issues, but they'll at least give those of us who want more ambiguity in their game, the ability to tailor our setups with certain constraints and handicaps.

[Mars_Blackmon]

26 minutes ago, craigmoore02 said:

On the whole I'd like the game to be left fairly close to how it is. The common player doesn't necessarily want harder difficulties to games like this. The silent majority will just be playing their saves and getting on with it. I've won a lot of matches in the Beta but I wouldn't necessarily say it was "too easy". It's not like every game I've swept it 4-0 or 5-0. I've had a lot of 2-0s, 2-1s or 1-0s. And they're matches I've specifically looked at and gone "how would I approach winning this match in real life with this team..." I didn't just find some tactical exploit (accidentally or otherwise) and hit continue for 6 hours.

While I'm on the subject of exploits I just don't understand the thought process behind doing that. It's odd to want to go outside the normal parameters. This game is still people's work that they've put effort into and people just come along and try to break the boundaries. It's like someone making a cupboard for you and you smashing it with a hammer to see how robust it is. It's rude.

Some of the goals I've seen on the Beta, for and against, have been absolutely beautiful aesthetically. That's the really enjoyable part.

Curious if you won any games where the AI scored more than 1 goal let alone 2 or 3.

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Mars_Blackmon:

I've been playing this way since FM11.

 

i agree it results in better squad building than not having all leagues loaded and not in full detail but it doesn't fix any loop holes to get great players on cheaper contracts and fees or even fix problems with how the AI competes against you in matches.

idk about the contracts or fees honestly. SI said in the past that there isn't any advantage to the human manager during a simulated game. But there are factors I stated above that influences a lot before the game starts, and this makes it easier IMO.

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

idk about the contracts or fees honestly. SI said in the past that there isn't any advantage to the human manager during a simulated game. But there are factors I stated above that influences a lot before the game starts, and this makes it easier IMO.

Well they already acknowledge the problem with fees in this beta but honestly that have been apart of the game for a while. maybe not as unbalanced as it is right now but contracts and fees needed fine tuning for a while now.

 

human have a natural advantage over the AI because we don't follow a string of code. 

 

Like for example, i don't think the AI abuse the future installment feature as much as a human would.

[craigmoore02]

4 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Curious if you won any games where the AI scored more than 1 goal let alone 2 or 3.

I did yes.

[Mars_Blackmon]

4 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

So, the people that want the game harder. What if SI said, yeah, ok then, we'll make it harder.

And you still massively overachieve. 

What then? Make it harder again? Where does it end?

The tools are already in the game to make the experience more challenging. If you choose not to use them, then the game will ALWAYS be too easy for you if you really know what you're doing. 

If you want to make it more realistic and challenging, start your career with a minnow and try and work your way up to a top job instead of just starting there with everything already in place for quick success. Until the AI improves to such an extent it can realistically challenge human behaviour (long way off), then the human player is always going to have the advantage. If you want things to be more difficult, you need to adapt the way you play it. 

There are tons of games with no difficulty levels that people have mastered. They then start using mods or handicapping themselves to make the experience more challenging. Or just stop playing if they're getting bored with it. It's a game after all. 

Maybe for my next save i can implement a rule to where I don't buy any players that have a vow in their name. Fun times! 

[jonpt]

I do like the idea of a skin where the star ratings are removed. It does seem like a simple way to make the transfer system harder. Plus it could be optional and therefore would not alter anything for those who are happy with the game as it is. 

[ajsr1982]

19 minutes ago, craigmoore02 said:

I did yes.

I've had plenty of 4-2 and 5-2 games, and even a 4-4. 

And if the point is that AI teams sit back and defend in away games, well I lost 3-0 at home to a team in the relegation zone when I was in 4th place.

[The Basque]

vor 51 Minuten schrieb Daveincid:

I am repeating myself again and again....If you load all leagues playable and with full detail. The simulation is very realistic. Almost nobody does that or even know how this mechanics works. This leads to a unbalanced ingame-world and a lot of frustration. So many people in this thread are complaining it's too easy and compare themselfes with others. It's not as objective as people think, because of all these different settings.

 

Cheers 

Daveincid

Nope. I am used to load every country inlcluding 3t level if possible.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb The Basque:

Nope. I am used to load every country inlcluding 3t level if possible.

other conlusions are fine. I am one in a million like everyone else.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Folk wanting a harder game but the ME to stay as good as it is in an attacking sense are going to be sorely disappointed if they get their wish.

 

The better attacking has clearly come at the expense of defending in the ME, you'll maybe get a slightly harder game, but it'll be with a ME closer to that of 20 than BETA '21

 

Edit: Given this is a yearly thread, lets look at some stats

FM 20

- only 42% of players ever won a MOTM award

-  49% of players went on a 10 match unbeaten run 

- 36% of players  won a domestic cup

- 27% of players won a domestic double

- 25% of players guided a team to promotion

- 13% of players won three consecutive domestic titles

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by treble_yell_:-)

[Nikopol]

I'm experiencing in a MP save with a friend that this game is somewhat easier. It could be that SI have toned down the length of time that a team needs to accustom itself to a new coach or a new tactic. Playing with Dortmund used to be relatively difficult in the first season due to bad team dynamics and me setting myself to hobby footballer in past experiences, and became a cakewalk from second season onwards. But in this particular save i'm doing very well, overly so even and i secured many difficult points where it feels like in the previous FM games i'd not have won them, due to getting countered, more stupid mistakes etc. My friend experiences the same. While's hes not as succesful as i am, he's overperforming heavily with Hertha and is actually the most prolific team in terms of goals in the league, aiming for an easy 2nd place finish after me.

 

As to the precise reasons for the perceived easiness it's up to SI to tell us if there's any logic behind it in the game, or whether it is something that they also perceive and work on.

[Mars_Blackmon]

17 minutes ago, jonpt said:

I do like the idea of a skin where the star ratings are removed. It does seem like a simple way to make the transfer system harder. Plus it could be optional and therefore would not alter anything for those who are happy with the game as it is. 

Agree especially since we have all of this data to make decisions on.

 

i love the details of FM but I have to admit that most of the stuff added can be considered fluff because you can completely ignore them and have it not affect anything. 

 

Give me a reason to dive deep into what my data analysis bring to my attention.

[Ivan787]

1 ora fa, Junkhead ha scritto:

AI Inter don't do that to AI Bayern.  I think this is the point. If a human way of playing out of the box means this happens, why isn't the AI set up to do the same?

It's not about making it arbitrarily harder, it's about making the AI better.

 

 

I can accept this. But I don't think to be so good at this game to do this. At least, in previous editions I wasn't....

[Mars_Blackmon]

17 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

Folk wanting a harder game but the ME to stay as good as it is in an attacking sense are going to be sorely disappointed if they get their wish.

 

The better attacking has clearly come at the expense of defending in the ME, you'll maybe get a slightly harder game, but it'll be with a ME closer to that of 20 than BETA '21

 

Edit: Given this is a yearly thread, lets look at some stats

FM 20

- only 42% of players ever won a MOTM award

-  49% of players went on a 10 match unbeaten run 

- 36% of players  won a domestic cup

- 27% of players won a domestic double

- 25% of players guided a team to promotion

- 13% of players won three consecutive domestic titles

 

Well they have said that they are continueously working on defending. defending isn't even the main problem it's the fact that the AI is too passive in their attacking.

[gma_cca]

On 17/11/2020 at 10:57, KloppRodgersHodgson said:

This isn't trying to annoy people, I'm just trying to gauge where other people are at in terms of whether they find it really easy, but are happy with that, or whether they don't find it that easy.

As reference, I'd say that if you're starting down the pyramid but getting promoted more than 50% of the seasons, that is still too easy.

And I'm not saying just nerf attacking play as the ME looks amazing this year for attacking. It should be that teams that play high-line, aggressive pressing football should be shattered by the end of the game and picked off on the counter, so they score a lot but concede a lot as well.

Its not a case of wanting it to be harder.. its more a case of wanting a realistic feel.. I am winning against the top 5 by a clear 6 or 7 goals every game.. its so unrealistic its off putting 

[Red Horizon]

It's way way way too easy. 

[VP.]

1 hour ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

Folk wanting a harder game but the ME to stay as good as it is in an attacking sense are going to be sorely disappointed if they get their wish.

 

The better attacking has clearly come at the expense of defending in the ME, you'll maybe get a slightly harder game, but it'll be with a ME closer to that of 20 than BETA '21

 

Edit: Given this is a yearly thread, lets look at some stats

FM 20

- only 42% of players ever won a MOTM award

-  49% of players went on a 10 match unbeaten run 

- 36% of players  won a domestic cup

- 27% of players won a domestic double

- 25% of players guided a team to promotion

- 13% of players won three consecutive domestic titles

 

Guessing that's taken from Steam achievements and if so it clearly states (to me anyway) that those that believe the game is too easy are in the minority and by some margin too.

 

[forameuss]

8 minutes ago, SortitoutsiVP said:

Guessing that's taken from Steam achievements and if so it clearly states (to me anyway) that those that believe the game is too easy are in the minority and by some margin too.

 

If it is by Steam achievements, it's not representative, as they're well known to be hideously bugged.  I wouldn't take those as accurate numbers for anything.

[KloppRodgersHodgson]

1 hour ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Maybe for my next save i can implement a rule to where I don't buy any players that have a vow in their name. Fun times! 

You mean you don’t do that already? No wonder you find it easy.

I only sign players whose surnames are anagrams of Batman baddies:

Kenny Kroje

Eddie Ebna

Robin Frister Meeze (legendary Dutch journeyman striker)

Npungei Npungei

Good lads. I’ve got a mod that says ‘Pow!’ when any of them score.

 

[KloppRodgersHodgson]

44 minutes ago, BusbyFergieJose said:

It's way way way too easy. 

...and had been for years.

[Dagenham_Dave]

20 minutes ago, SortitoutsiVP said:

Guessing that's taken from Steam achievements and if so it clearly states (to me anyway) that those that believe the game is too easy are in the minority and by some margin too.

 

That's always the way though. Gamers who are exceptionally good at a certain game are usually in the minority of the overall player base. Victims of their own success. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

15 minutes ago, forameuss said:

If it is by Steam achievements, it's not representative, as they're well known to be hideously bugged.  I wouldn't take those as accurate numbers for anything.

Besides that, I wonder how those numbers would look after adjusted for hours played...

[KloppRodgersHodgson]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

That's always the way though. Gamers who are exceptionally good at a certain game are usually in the minority of the overall player base. Victims of their own success. 

Agreed, impossible to tell from forum dwellers alone, although I’ve never seen a poll come close to saying it’s too easy before (and I’ve started enough of them over the years!).

This is something only SI could tell us from their data, average finishing position vs media prediction.

Probably just on bottom half teams as you can’t finish higher than predicted 1st.

Hopefully they’re doing this kind of analysis in the background.

[Junkhead]

23 minutes ago, forameuss said:

If it is by Steam achievements, it's not representative, as they're well known to be hideously bugged.  I wouldn't take those as accurate numbers for anything.

Also I dont think they pop if achieved whilst steam is offline, and a percentage of players will play offline.

[Dagenham_Dave]

We also have to remember the beta is usually a lot easier than the main game, for whatever reason. 

[treble_yell_:-)]

1 minute ago, Junkhead said:

Also I dont think they pop if achieved whilst steam is offline, and a percentage of players will play offline.

 

I very much doubt the number of folk playing FM who never ever have the Steam connected to the internet is even worth mentioning, however, even if it is, if you have even a passing understanding of statistics and the sample sizes needed for accurate extrapolation, then you'll know the figures would largely stay the same.

 

Now granted those figures are for FM20, but we get the same arguments every year. Generally I expect the arguments come from folks mostly setting their rep high, using good teams with downloaded tactics and signing the FOTM players and wonder kids.

[Mars_Blackmon]

4 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

 

I very much doubt the number of folk playing FM who never ever have the Steam connected to the internet is even worth mentioning, however, even if it is, if you have even a passing understanding of statistics and the sample sizes needed for accurate extrapolation, then you'll know the figures would largely stay the same.

 

Now granted those figures are for FM20, but we get the same arguments every year. Generally I expect the arguments come from folks mostly setting their rep high, using good teams with downloaded tactics and signing the FOTM players and wonder kids.

And that's the disconnect 

[Dagenham_Dave]

Basically, there are a few categories of FM gamer

1. People who don't use exploits but still massively overachieve

2. People who do use exploits and massively overachieve

3. Casual (or even experienced) gamers who will probably do alright, don't use exploits and have a good time with the game

4. Casual (or even experienced) gamers who only do alright despite using exploits. 

5. People who generally struggle no matter what

6. Me

For reference, I've highlighted the demographic that SI will focus the difficulty level on. 

 

[Trucce]

FM is fine as it is, there are many ways to make the game harder and more fun if you don't enjoy winning with the big clubs. 

 

[Haribo1681]

Interesting debate this. I remember exactly the same conversations taking place every year when the world was black and white and the 2D match engine was first introduced.

I haven't played the Beta yet, so I can't comment but I'm a bit concerned by what I see from YouTubers who don't seem to do a great deal but smash in a load of goals.

FM20 was the first time I'd played in around 10 years - I ran a long term save as Dortmund and results-wise it felt about right, maybe slightly easy; we won the league six times out of eight, three or four times with the cup as well but Europe was a lot tougher - made the UCL final twice and lost both times on penalties. Usually we came up short against Liverpool/PSG/Barca et al. I never used a gegenpress-style tactic, normally trying to play a variant of the control possession preset...

...which brings me to my gripe - my tactics were clearly garbage as we never controlled possession and the players I wanted to be at the heart of the team were effectively passengers; we'd rarely get more than 50%, usually more like 40% against teams that played with cautious or defensive mentalities, but we'd still rack up 20+ shots and win 4-0, 5-0.

So, tl;dr - it probably was too easy and didn't punish my incompetent tactic building. I hope FM21 isn't the same but early signs don't look great.

[cerud]

I'd like to choose no, but both of those choices have descriptions that are more facetious than helpful. They don't apply for all situations. 

[SazoJohnno]

I did quite average in my first season with Ajax and is slightly struggling so far in the second season, most likely due to the teams being clued up with my tactic. I don't really see any issues with this game at all whatsoever. I stole a lucky win against Atletico de Madrid and went through via away goal. I got denied a sweet path through semi final against Barcelona who went through via away goal which is karma for me I guess. 

 

I truly enjoy this game and I do not see this as being easy nor hard. It's just right in the middle for me. 

[Viking]

High pressing and attacking tactics seems to be very, very effective in the beta. I lost only three matches in a season with Oxford in L1 in my latest save using a 4-2-2-2 variant. I rarely won any matches at all in FM20. Ever.

Edit: And as a side note, almost all YouTubers I follow are all in the top of their leagues, regardless of club or league. Almost every match they play are a win. I assume they are quite good at what they are doing, though.

Edit2: And I enjoy the beta.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Viking