Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?

[harrycarrie]

Just now, RioImmagina said:

So if Newcastle chairman will get an offensive manager (klopp, favre) they could go in CL? 

They'd be kicked from the league for playing the wrong way.

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb dominoes012:

Is your idea of playing football manager just to have every single team play the exact same tactics they do in real life. The reason why Marcelo Bielsa is hailed as a genius or extremely smart in tactics and football in general is because he takes the players he has applies his philosophy and plays his style of football. Football manager is there because it allows you to play whatever brand of football you want. However the problem is the match engine currently does not punish you for playing extremely offensive even with lower tier players. That is the problem as it is too "easy" to play so are we misunderstanding each other or?

it's not my idea. I just try to analyze how the mechanics might work, nothing more.

[andu1]

2 minutes ago, harrycarrie said:

They'd be kicked from the league for playing the wrong way.

If Klopp would play that style at Newcastle the most likely thing that would happen would be what happened in his last year at Dortmund.

[RioImmagina]

2 minuti fa, harrycarrie ha scritto:

They'd be kicked from the league for playing the wrong way.

Please, we are talking seriously about a clear SI decision who can cripple the game (for someone). 

No sarcasm, thank you

[Daveincid]

They kinda improved, but still fighting agains relegation. No crazy score beside the 6:0 loss....looks pretty decent IMO

[dominoes012]

People seem to be tossing the word exploit in as a replacement adjective for the word strong, overtuned, overpowered. Using Gegenpress and a high line with the instructions of attacking gets forward as much as possible is not an exploit. It is there as an instruction to tell your players how you want them to play. The fact that it outperforms other tactics does not mean it is an exploit, it means that it's overtuned, overpowered whatever you want to call it. An exploit is if I had Lionel Messi and he for some reason could teleport past your defenders mid match and score 100% of the time. The fact that so many people have a problem with Gegenpressing means that it should be addressed as it would need a nerf or a fix in the match engine which essentially means that most people agree there is a problem with the attacking side of football or defensive side of football in the match engine. The fact that you can be a person who says oh I'm not going to use it because it outperforms other tactics or oh it would not be used in real life does not mean there is not a problem. No one here is telling you how to play football manager however there are people that like to play attacking football myself included that would like some kind of fix. As much as you do not want other people telling you how to play football manager the people that play attacking football also do not want to be told "play defensive" football because you are playing with X low tier club. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by dominoes012

[andu1]

Frankly i think FM 20 had a nice difficulty balance. I mean, it took me around 12 years to build an Eastern European Team into a Champions League winner. And i could feel the difficulty spike when playing against teams with good players.

For example I won the UCL beating City 4-2 then the next final they thrashed me 3-0 and after those 2 i couldn't even get to Semi's.

Edited November 18, 2020 by andu1

[dannysheard]

10 minutes ago, andu1 said:

If Klopp would play that style at Newcastle the most likely thing that would happen would be what happened in his last year at Dortmund.

But FM would have him win the league within two seasons, maybe less if you really tried.

[Mars_Blackmon]

 

[andu1]

Just now, dannysheard said:

But FM would have him win the league within two seasons, maybe less if you really tried.

then that's why this is a beta and it's good that people are reporting it's too easy.

[Freakiie]

My holidaying skills apparently aren't up to par it seems. While it's still massively over performing with Newcastle, it's also damn leaky when compared to the big clubs and Arsenal. Barely got a positive GD, as I got 50 goals less than harry, while the goals conceded was roughly the same.

 

Well and then second time around this happened. My holidaying skills really aren't up to par.

 

Looking at it, board take over happened and since I was barely above the relegation spots (despite using the same tactic) the new board gave me the boot. Still, these hyper aggressive tactics can very quickly backfire it seems, looking at the completely different results.

[vukigepard]

6 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

This is why it's better in the bugs forum. That big an exploit needs to be patched, ideally before release. 

That poor AI that has to endure all the exploiting which we specifically choose to do or not to do by playing a bad team in a way totally opposite of how they realistically play. First we don't know how they would play if they played like in that specific tactic setup as they don't. They could be loosing 10-0, or maybe they would play a lot better than right now irl. Second, if we have them play in a way like they do irl, we get realistic results as Daveincid posted. 

If you want complete freedom, like being able to select to play ultra offensive football with a team that clearly by any logic would never do, why would you be mad about the generated, simulated, not real life results from a generally non possible play style regarding that team that comes from that freedom. If this is left like this, you are not limited, you can choose whatever you want to play like, but if it's "fixed" some people (like me, and from the polls i see a lot of people, like 43%) can't enjoy the bit unrealistic but very joyful experience that a specific 1 tactical style and approach that puts you above the AI.

[andu1]

Just now, Freakiie said:

My holidaying skills apparently aren't up to par it seems. While it's still massively over performing with Newcastle, it's also damn leaky when compared to the big clubs and Arsenal. Barely got a positive GD, as I got 50 goals less than harry, while the goals conceded was roughly the same.

 

Well and then second time around this happened. My holidaying skills really aren't up to par.

 

Looking at it, board take over happened and since I was barely above the relegation spots (despite using the same tactic) the new board gave me the boot. Still, these hyper aggressive tactics can very quickly backfire it seems, looking at the completely different results.

I think there are certain combination in tactical instructions that make a tactic OP. For example counter-press is a must. Or using some roles that are more efficient than other. Then again i wouldn't know because i never used or will use such exploits.

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb vukigepard:

That poor AI that has to endure all the exploiting which we specifically choose to do or not to do by playing a bad team in a way totally opposite of how they realistically play. First we don't know how they would play if they played like in that specific tactic setup as they don't. They could be loosing 10-0, or maybe they would play a lot better than right now irl. Second, if we have them play in a way like they do irl, we get realistic results as Daveincid posted. 

If you want complete freedom, like being able to select to play ultra offensive football with a team that clearly by any logic would never do, why would you be mad about the generated, simulated, not real life results from a generally non possible play style regarding that team that comes from that freedom. If this is left like this, you are not limited, you can choose whatever you want to play like, but if it's "fixed" some people (like me, and from the polls i see a lot of people, like 43%) can't enjoy the bit unrealistic but very joyful experience that a specific 1 tactical style and approach that puts you above the AI.

well said

[Freakiie]

1 minute ago, andu1 said:

I think there are certain combination in tactical instructions that make a tactic OP. For example counter-press is a must. Or using some roles that are more efficient than other. Then again i wouldn't know because i never used or will use such exploits.

I straight up copied the tactic harry posted

Guess I didn't get the fine tuning PIs that really break the game?

[dominoes012]

Just now, andu1 said:

I think there are certain combination in tactical instructions that make a tactic OP. For example counter-press is a must. Or using some roles that are more efficient than other. Then again i wouldn't know because i never used or will use such exploits.

Gegenpress is good but not the core of the problem. The core of the problem is high line, counterpressing, just an attacking mindset in general as you do not get punished. 

 

https://gyazo.com/5589af441b548820a513c7b94ae23b03 This would have easily been 100 goals if I did not get knocked out of the copa del rey. You do lose but it is few and far between.

[dominoes012]

6 minutes ago, vukigepard said:

That poor AI that has to endure all the exploiting which we specifically choose to do or not to do by playing a bad team in a way totally opposite of how they realistically play. First we don't know how they would play if they played like in that specific tactic setup as they don't. They could be loosing 10-0, or maybe they would play a lot better than right now irl. Second, if we have them play in a way like they do irl, we get realistic results as Daveincid posted. 

If you want complete freedom, like being able to select to play ultra offensive football with a team that clearly by any logic would never do, why would you be mad about the generated, simulated, not real life results from a generally non possible play style regarding that team that comes from that freedom. If this is left like this, you are not limited, you can choose whatever you want to play like, but if it's "fixed" some people (like me, and from the polls i see a lot of people, like 43%) can't enjoy the bit unrealistic but very joyful experience that a specific 1 tactical style and approach that puts you above the AI.

We do know how it would turn out if lower tier teams played in an aggressive offensive manner. Do you think the real life managers of football are morons that for some reason have not discovered wow what if we took our team as Fulham and played like Manchester City? Obviously they are going to lose to Manchester City if they play like them because the players at Manchester City do everything better than the players At Fulham. It is not an exploit to choose to play a certain way as in every single video game there is a meta there is something that is stronger than others. However when that something gets much stronger than everything else to a certain point the developers need to balance the game which is essentially what we are asking for here. How is this hard to understand for some people? No one is bragging we want some game balance. I don't mind losing 8-1 if I choose to play as Fulham with my current tactics versus Manchester City because that means I have to adjust my tactics to win. However currently I can play whatever I want and still win which is the problem at hand

[dannysheard]

11 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

My holidaying skills apparently aren't up to par it seems. While it's still massively over performing with Newcastle, it's also damn leaky when compared to the big clubs and Arsenal. Barely got a positive GD, as I got 50 goals less than harry, while the goals conceded was roughly the same.

 

Well and then second time around this happened. My holidaying skills really aren't up to par.

 

Looking at it, board take over happened and since I was barely above the relegation spots (despite using the same tactic) the new board gave me the boot. Still, these hyper aggressive tactics can very quickly backfire it seems, looking at the completely different results.

It's your tactics 🤪

[Daveincid]

End of Season. Better performed as expected, indeed it was a gegenpress-tactic. But far away from massively overperforming.

[jase19]

57 minutes ago, harrycarrie said:

Because a ser went off and told me to pick a team, I did and it wasn't the right team, then told me to do Huesca, which I am. Going forward I'll be happy to provide files, I just want this test done with so I can crack on with my evening mate

I told you from the start you're using a bugged tactic with 3 at the front.

Now you're not even *playing* you're just simulating the entire season.  You're not winning.  You're doing nothing.  That's a bug.  I said before when I simulate the friendlies I win by a bunch and when I play everything comes back down to earth.  That has been the case for a while in FM to me.   

I suggested actually PLAYING FM without using 3 up front with a more difficult club.  Not simulating a year of the game.

Apparently I have to spell things out.

[vukigepard]

1 minute ago, dominoes012 said:

We do know how it would turn out if lower tier teams played in an aggressive offensive manner. Do you think the real life managers of football are morons that for some reason have not discovered wow what if we took our team as Fulham and played like Manchester City? Obviously they are going to lose to Manchester City if they play like them because the players at Manchester City do everything better than the players At Fulham. It is not an exploit to choose to play a certain way as in every single video game there is a meta there is something that is stronger than others. However when that something gets much stronger than everything else to a certain point the developers need to balance the game which is essentially what we are asking for here. How is this hard to understand for some people? No one is bragging we want some game balance. I don't mind losing 8-1 if I choose to play as Fulham with my current tactics versus Manchester City because that means I have to adjust my tactics to win. However currently I can play whatever I want and still win which is the problem at hand

You've missed the entire point, Fulham, with all due respect couldn't choose to play ultra attacking fluid football against manchester city whatever they did. You, in fm, as fullham can choose to play ultra offensive football against manchester city, there's a difference. If you don't have a problem with your right chose to play something that is impossible irl because you can, why do you have a problem with the consequences being unrealistic. 

[dominoes012]

2 minutes ago, vukigepard said:

You've missed the entire point, Fulham, with all due respect couldn't choose to play ultra attacking fluid football against manchester city whatever they did. You, in fm, as fullham can choose to play ultra offensive football against manchester city, there's a difference. If you don't have a problem with your right chose to play something that is impossible irl because you can, why do you have a problem with the consequences being unrealistic. 

The problem is that football manager is made to be a game that tries to simulate results extremely accurately almost like real life. When it is unrealistic than what is the point of playing this game. Developers have put in their life's work determining contracts, stats, abilities of players so that they can get the most accurate information to provide an accurate picture and game for everyone to enjoy. When the game is unrealistic than the game is simply unfun to play. That is the whole basis of Football Manager lol.

Edited November 18, 2020 by dominoes012

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb dominoes012:

The problem is that football manager is made to be a game that tries to simulate results extremely accurately almost like real life. When it is unrealistic that what is the point of playing this game. Developers have put in their life's work determining contracts, stats, abilities of players so that they can get the most accurate information to provide an accurate picture and game for everyone to enjoy. When the game is unrealistic that the game is simply unfun to play. That is the whole basis of Football Manager lol.

So SI must code the game that it can transfer the unrealistic behaviour of the human manager affecting their realistic coding into realism? that's not realistic lol

[vukigepard]

2 minutes ago, dominoes012 said:

The problem is that football manager is made to be a game that tries to simulate results extremely accurately almost like real life. When it is unrealistic that what is the point of playing this game. Developers have put in their life's work determining contracts, stats, abilities of players so that they can get the most accurate information to provide an accurate picture and game for everyone to enjoy. When the game is unrealistic that the game is simply unfun to play. That is the whole basis of Football Manager lol.

Yep, and when you play it unrealistically, you get the unrealistic results. If you play it in a way that real life teams play, you get expected realistic results. I see no problem there. Training huesca to play gegenpress fluid offensive football and them being able to play it efficently is no more unrealistic than you choosing to play that way which they realistically can't with that team (otherwise they would play like liverpool)

[dominoes012]

Just now, Daveincid said:

So SI must code the game that it can transfer the unrealistic behaviour of the human manager affecting their realistic coding into realism? that's not realistic lol

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying if I have unrealistic behavior with tactics there is always a weakness that should be able to be punished. Just like in real life if I play with three strikers up front like Harry's tactic and no wingers than my team will get punished on the flanks. Richarlison Calwert-Lewin and the 3rd striker that Harry used in his tactic do not go on and score 50 goals each in real life.

[dominoes012]

Just now, vukigepard said:

Yep, and when you play it unrealistically, you get the unrealistic results. If you play it in a way that real life teams play, you get expected realistic results. I see no problem there. Training huesca to play gegenpress fluid offensive football and them being able to play it efficently is no more unrealistic than you choosing to play that way which they realistically can't with that team (otherwise they would play like liverpool)

I am getting unrealistic results but they are positive unrealistic results whereas in real life you would get punished with negative unrealistic results which means you lose. However sometimes you win just like Leeds United which can be used as in example here. They put on a thriller vs Liverpool but lost but in the times they win that is the real life dopamine/happiness you get as a fan which just like football manager is why you perhaps want to play offensively. However if you play offensively every single match and you win more than you should which is happening in the current match engine, your happiness gets diminished returns because it happens so often and you do not get satisfaction. Leeds United doesn't play gegenpress vs every single team and destroy them 6-1 which is happening a lot in the current match engine.  

[dominoes012]

You guys seem to still be missing some of our points here. It is not that we get unrealistic results sometimes which happens in real life. No one sees Aston Villa crushing Liverpool in real life and as in football manager, if we do manage Villa we hope for that. No matter what team you play you are hoping that your team wins the unachievable and that they have success. However when that success happens too frequently it gets to a point where it becomes unrealistic and that is where some of the fun gets taken out for some of us. 

[dominoes012]

How is it a special season or a special occasion if you play with Erling Haaland and he has a 60 goal season when it happens every single season because the match engine is currently designed so that strikers score so often right now. There are some people currently that are currently against changing the match engine because they are having fun which is fine. However you will get to a certain point in your save when you have a striker of the quality of Mbappe Messi Ronaldo Haaland Aguero Lewa some regen that you get or whoever and they will continue to bang in ridiculous amounts of goals and you will probably lose your attraction to the game because it won't be as realistic as you want it. For others who struggle currently and want to play their own tactic they made up and their style and perhaps won't reach to that point, I can fully understand why you do not want this match engine to ever change because it is the best match engine made so far by far. However, no matter how much you disagree there are people that are at the point where they're seeing ridiculous amounts of goals/promotions and want to see a slight fix before the game releases. 

 

I do not play gegenpress and I play with the tactics that I made on my own which does include attacking, high line, gets forward, and counterpress which I believe to be the main problem. Whether it is a defensive thing or an offensive thing I am not sure but I would lean towards the defensive part as I think the offense is wonderfully made this year. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by dominoes012

[Daveincid]

I made the same test again with the 4-4-2 tactic from the newcastle-save.

 

 

Result:

 

 

[vukigepard]

20 minutes ago, dominoes012 said:

I am getting unrealistic results but they are positive unrealistic results whereas in real life you would get punished with negative unrealistic results which means you lose. However sometimes you win just like Leeds United which can be used as in example here. They put on a thriller vs Liverpool but lost but in the times they win that is the real life dopamine/happiness you get as a fan which just like football manager is why you perhaps want to play offensively. However if you play offensively every single match and you win more than you should which is happening in the current match engine, your happiness gets diminished returns because it happens so often and you do not get satisfaction. Leeds United doesn't play gegenpress vs every single team and destroy them 6-1 which is happening a lot in the current match engine.  

Then you choose the approach that grants you more happy points and a bigger dopamine kick, you can choose whatever you like as you have many tactical options besides gegenpress. I'm perfectly happy with my doses of dopamine and serotonine when i play this specific tactical approach and you would want that option completely out of the game. See, the thing is you can choose to not press like prime liverpool and have their transitions if you feel like your team is not good enough for that or think that is exploiting. With attacking nerfed, I can't choose to have my unrealistic approach because the results would be "unrealistic", but you can have your unrealistic approach to gegenpress first season huesca with "realistic" results.

Edited November 18, 2020 by vukigepard

[dominoes012]

1 minute ago, vukigepard said:

Then you choose the approach that grants you more happy points and a bigger dopamine kick, you can choose whatever you like as you have many tactical options besides gegenpress. I'm perfectly happy with my doses of dopamine and serotonine when i play this specific tactical approach and you would want that option completely out of the game. See, the thing is you can choose to not press like prime liverpool and have their transitions if you feel like your team is not good enough for that or think that is exploiting. With attacking nerfed, I can't choose to have my unrealstic approach because the results would ve "unrealistic", but you can have your unrealistic approach to gegenpress first season huesca with "realistic" results.

I don't play with gegenpress and am I understanding you correct in that you're saying I shouldn't play with Huesca in an offensive manner and expect realistic results because it would be unrealistic to play offensive with Huesca? Have you heard of a football club called Leeds United? They play no matter what vs any team in the world the same exact way their manager has taught them to play. They do not drop 5 in the back and defend when it is a strong team. The whole point/premise of the game Football Manager is that you as the manager can play however you want in whatever shape you want and you expect to see for the most part realistic results. I can play with no center backs in my formation if I wanted to and play with 5 strikers that is not a bug or an exploit. However if I were to do that I would expect the opposing team to score many goals vs my team. People want to see consistent realistic results with occasional upsets. That is the entire game of Football Manager and I really do not see how you don't understand this concept. Just like whatever tactic/way you want to play and you want to see accurate results, I do as well. That is currently not happening to many people which has resulted in this thread and I am trying to explain that to you as plainly and as easy as I can.

[harrycarrie]

In the last post he mentioned no centre backs, I did once try a tactic with nobody in the defensive half. 3 strikers, 5 behind them, and 2 mcs. Whilst it was hilarious fun, we lost something like 13-5.

 

So at least we know the game understands how offside works

[dominoes012]

1 minute ago, harrycarrie said:

In the last post he mentioned no centre backs, I did once try a tactic with nobody in the defensive half. 3 strikers, 5 behind them, and 2 mcs. Whilst it was hilarious fun, we lost something like 13-5.

 

So at least we know the game understands how offside works

I actually think FM21 both defensively and offensively is by far the best match engine we've seen. You're seeing such wonderful offense and on top of that you see all your defenders blocking crosses/defending/tackling whereas in FM20 you see some guy with good pace just run past your center backs like they were trash bags. It just needs some adjustments and than for sure it's the best version of this game I've played. 

[Freakiie]

Ok, third holidayed season using this OP tictac.

With City this time, so clearly I will shred everything! EVERYTHING!

Well I got an FA cup? (Lost both matches against Dortmund, while I only had the PL loaded, after barely getting out of my CL group, struggling that badly against teams from inactive leagues is a tad embarrassing)

Guess I should just go back to my Icelandic youth save rather than trying to holiday with OP tictocs. I only got lousy 77 goals, but at the same time I also only conceded 31.

I'm starting to get the gut feeling that this is a lot less tactics and a lot more reputation. Play an aggressive tactic as a weak(er) team and you can shred teams apart as they will leave you lots of space, often winning matches by simply outscoring the opponent. Try to just run at the opposition with a much better team and the opposition will lock up and you will have a much worse time. I didn't see any absurd goal amounts with City (My PL topscorer was Jesus with 16 goals...) with in total Jesus scoring 28 out of 52 and Agüero 24 out of 43.

Add to that a healthy dose of morale by grabbing some surprise wins early on and you start steam rolling. Don't grab those early wins and struggle with morale? Suddenly the exact same tactic has you about where you'd expect your team to be.

PS: Nerf United and Arsenal. Thanks!

[dominoes012]

I don't know if people remember the patch in FM20 where there were probably 20-30 over the top balls in a game to your striker(s) but since the finishing was so poor you would only score 0-3 and they finally tuned that down. I would hope the same for just overall offense whether by slightly buffing defense nerfing offense or a combination

[Daveincid]

Test with Newcastle exactly the same as harrycarrie: I already made a screenshot because I am close to get sacked, at least I will get a steam-achievment for that I guess So my facts are different than most other meanings in this thread. And I heard just now there was some rice-bag falling in china...

[Daveincid]

I survived the season. It's like I said earlier...the AI has problems when a team uses a tactic, they won't use IRL according their status in the league. So Newcastle got some decent wins over Top Teams. The results were pretty high in average. If you have 2 teams that only attack, of course there will be some strange results like 5-4....And of course a player of your own team will be top-scorer. Your own Team has this strange kind of gameplay 38 times a season and the AI only when they play against you. End of Story.

[harrycarrie]

Couple that tactic with player instructions and it happens. You have to use both, and someone please don't tell me doing that is unrealistic as its part of the game!

 

Literally telling one player to stay wider can change how a tactic flows. Shoot more/less etc, it all has an effect. When I make tactics, and it doesn't matter what formation, I dictate shape and PIs. They are both integral.

 

Since starting FM on CM 01/02 I've won everything from all levels. Its impossible not to when hours spent is in the tens of thousands of hours. Nowadays I just like to break and blitz, very attacking, lets go.

 

Give me 7-4 over 0-0 any day of the week.

[vukigepard]

7 minutes ago, dominoes012 said:

I don't play with gegenpress and am I understanding you correct in that you're saying I shouldn't play with Huesca in an offensive manner and expect realistic results because it would be unrealistic to play offensive with Huesca? Have you heard of a football club called Leeds United? They play no matter what vs any team in the world the same exact way their manager has taught them to play. They do not drop 5 in the back and defend when it is a strong team. The whole point/premise of the game Football Manager is that you as the manager can play however you want in whatever shape you want and you expect to see for the most part realistic results. I can play with no center backs in my formation if I wanted to and play with 5 strikers that is not a bug or an exploit. However if I were to do that I would expect the opposing team to score many goals vs my team. People want to see consistent realistic results with occasional upsets. That is the entire game of Football Manager and I really do not see how you don't understand this concept. Just like whatever tactic/way you want to play and you want to see accurate results, I do as well. That is currently not happening to many people which has resulted in this thread and I am trying to explain that to you as plainly and as easy as I can.

I am saying that having a team made specifically for a particular tactical approach and playing it in a different manner is no much more unrealistic, non rational as that is the style that suits the team best, and the manager is, as you said, is not a moron. But that would also then mean there would be lots of styles available, but choosing anything but one that suits your team best makes you a "moron". If you set up exactly the same tactical aproach as Liverpool with Huesca, that IS unrealistic. Because you can't go up to Huesca striker and set him up as Mohammed Salah realistically, you can tell him to do exactly the same things as Salah, exactly where to move, how to shoot, how to think, but the realistic part is that he will be not be Salah, or Salah like during the game, but probably doing nothing like you wanted him to do. So you get the player that is fit to play as you like. So no, if you have a team like Huesca, it can't realistically play offensive or geggenpress against Real Madrid, or Leeds, or Manchester City, you can call it that, but it isn't, because their team is set up to using their strenght because manager is not a moron. When you can play geggenpress, you have a team that can play geggenpress, when you don't have a team for geggenpress, you can "play" geggenpress in fm. That is unrealistic, not the result behind playing geggenpress which depends on your team being able to play it. Leeds as seen this season, is playing their offensive football and have 3 wins in 8 as a promoted team, so not bad at all, Liverpool game could have gone any way, just as any fm game you play geggenpress.

[harrycarrie]

At rhe end of the day its a game confined by its own limitations. And any game has limitations, and these can be broken.

 

They just need better alpha/beta testers that will do stuff like this rather than 'realism', its how you adapt to it quicker!

Edited November 19, 2020 by harrycarrie

[dominoes012]

16 minutes ago, vukigepard said:

I am saying that having a team made specifically for a particular tactical approach and playing it in a different manner is no much more unrealistic, non rational as that is the style that suits the team best, and the manager is, as you said, is not a moron. But that would also then mean there would be lots of styles available, but choosing anything but one that suits your team best makes you a "moron". If you set up exactly the same tactical aproach as Liverpool with Huesca, that IS unrealistic. Because you can't go up to Huesca striker and set him up as Mohammed Salah realistically, you can tell him to do exactly the same things as Salah, exactly where to move, how to shoot, how to think, but the realistic part is that he will be not be Salah, or Salah like during the game, but probably doing nothing like you wanted him to do. So you get the player that is fit to play as you like. So no, if you have a team like Huesca, it can't realistically play offensive or geggenpress against Real Madrid, or Leeds, or Manchester City, you can call it that, but it isn't, because their team is set up to using their strenght because manager is not a moron. When you can play geggenpress, you have a team that can play geggenpress, when you don't have a team for geggenpress, you can "play" geggenpress in fm. That is unrealistic, not the result behind playing geggenpress which depends on your team being able to play it. Leeds as seen this season, is playing their offensive football and have 3 wins in 8 as a promoted team, so not bad at all, Liverpool game could have gone any way, just as any fm game you play geggenpress.

You absolutely can tell any player to play like a specific player in real life. If they cannot perform or are unwilling that is when the club replaces that player and the coach that is put in place looks for players that fits his tactic. Leeds before Bielsa compared to Leeds after Bielsa is not even close. Man city before pep and man city after pep are completely different teams. You as the coach dictate how you want your teams to play and get players that can fit. The only difference between X player that plays like Mohammad Salah and Salah himself is quality and that is reflected by salary and stats. So while Leeds can have a team that performs similarly to other attacking players the reason they cannot have Man city's roster is because of money to buy the exceptional players. You can tell any Huesca player to play offensively and if they're too slow, too unfit, too unwilling to fit your philosophy at the next transfer window you get rid of them or you bench them and you get a player that can fit your tactic

[dominoes012]

I don't think you realize this but when you say X Huesca player cannot/should not perform like Mohammad Salah you're actually proving my point in that he should not and that the match engine should try to reflect that. Instead you see screenshots of Richarlison Calwert Lewin and his 3rd striker all get 50 goals. Do you actually think these 3 players are that much better than Mohammad Salah in real life? In real life all 3 of these players combined might not get Mohammad Salah's amount of goals but that isn't the whole point as in Football Manager you're trying to find ways to make your players into stars. So even if one of these players gets 50 goals for a season you're absolutely ecstatic. However what we're seeing is that you can get Joe Blow to get 50 goals or you get strikers on your team to severely outperform what is realistic every single season and as you progress and your team gets stronger this probably increases. 

[vukigepard]

1 minute ago, dominoes012 said:

You absolutely can tell any player to play like a specific player in real life. If they cannot perform or are unwilling that is when the club replaces that player and the coach that is put in place looks for players that fits his tactic. Leeds before Bielsa compared to Leeds after Bielsa is not even close. Man city before pep and man city after pep are completely different teams. You as the coach dictate how you want your teams to play and get players that can fit. The only difference between X player that plays like Mohammad Salah and Salah himself is quality and that is reflected by salary and stats. So while Leeds can have a team that performs similarly to other attacking players the reason they cannot have Man city's roster is because of money to buy the exceptional players. You can tell any Huesca player to play offensively and if they're too slow, too unfit, too unwilling to fit your philosophy at the next transfer window you get rid of them or you bench them and you get a player that can fit your tactic

I like the place where we came up to. Ok, so you can tell your player to play in a certain way to play offensive, but they're too slow, too unfit, to unwilling to fit. So are you then playing offensive because you told your team how to play, or how they are actually playing? That is the difference i wanted to point out. Playing the geggenpress and telling random players to play it is not the same, same as playing offensive. Problem here is that you can play geggenpress in fm, even if you couldn't with those players irl, and get the results that would come from viable supreme geggenpress irl, which is actually fine by me as i can either chose to play it or not. But i don't want the attacking nerfed because of it and have fm19 and 20 all over again.

[dominoes012]

If I tell my players to play my offensive way and the striker or any other player is too slow too unfit and too unwilling to play my style than I expect my team to fail and lose more than I win. That is not the case currently as players are doing much more than what they should be capable of doing. In fact to quote your last quote 

38 minutes ago, vukigepard said:

Leeds as seen this season, is playing their offensive football and have 3 wins in 8 as a promoted team, so not bad at all

That is exactly what I want to happen in the games. If I play offensive football as a weaker team I have a chance to win and a chance to absolutely lose and get crushed. 

[Gah Rii]

37 minutes ago, harrycarrie said:

Couple that tactic with player instructions and it happens. You have to use both, and someone please don't tell me doing that is unrealistic as its part of the game!

 

Literally telling one player to stay wider can change how a tactic flows. Shoot more/less etc, it all has an effect. When I make tactics, and it doesn't matter what formation, I dictate shape and PIs. They are both integral.

 

Since starting FM on CM 01/02 I've won everything from all levels. Its impossible not to when hours spent is in the tens of thousands of hours. Nowadays I just like to break and blitz, very attacking, lets go.

 

Give me 7-4 over 0-0 any day of the week.

 

How long does it take for you to create the tactics? How do you know when you want someone to shoot more/less or stay wider? I can only assume you're watching full matches to analyse what needs to be done, and that it takes a pretty decent amount of time. you're specifically looking for ways to make the game broken, as you've said.

 

I don't see that the average person will really struggle with too many goals from their strikers ruining realism because the majority of people aren't touching PI's. The only way this would ever become a mainstream problem for SI is if you can pick from the default list of gegenpress tactics presented to you in the game and achieve these results. SI are only going to fix it if it becomes a mainstream problem where any element of challenge is removed from the game.

 

Gegenpress and it's variations are a problem yes, but they're nowhere near as bad as what some people achieve by going massively out of their way to make it possible.

[vukigepard]

4 minutes ago, dominoes012 said:

I don't think you realize this but when you say X Huesca player cannot/should not perform like Mohammad Salah you're actually proving my point in that he should not and that the match engine should try to reflect that. Instead you see screenshots of Richarlison Calwert Lewin and his 3rd striker all get 50 goals. Do you actually think these 3 players are that much better than Mohammad Salah in real life? In real life all 3 of these players combined might not get Mohammad Salah's amount of goals but that isn't the whole point as in Football Manager you're trying to find ways to make your players into stars. So even if one of these players gets 50 goals for a season you're absolutely ecstatic. However what we're seeing is that you can get Joe Blow to get 50 goals or you get strikers on your team to severely outperform what is realistic every single season and as you progress and your team gets stronger this probably increases. 

To the contrary, i'm saying that if they could play geggenpress irl like they could in the game, they would have pretty high numbers. But the thing that is unrealistic is not them scoring 40 goals a season by having the best tactical system right now, but them being able to play that system like they are liverpool players, which they can't, otherwise they would. So you don't want to limit the possibilites what they could play, but want to limit the results of that play. Seem's much more logic to me that everton can't play gegenpress like liverpool, than everton playing liverpool's geggenpress and expecting different results than liverpool. Because if everton played like liverpool, they would be liverpool. 

[dominoes012]

2 minutes ago, vukigepard said:

To the contrary, i'm saying that if they could play geggenpress irl like they could in the game, they would have pretty high numbers. But the thing that is unrealistic is not them scoring 40 goals a season by having the best tactical system right now, but them being able to play that system like they are liverpool players, which they can't, otherwise they would. So you don't want to limit the possibilites what they could play, but want to limit the results of that play. Seem's much more logic to me that everton can't play gegenpress like liverpool, than everton playing liverpool's geggenpress and expecting different results than liverpool. Because if everton played like liverpool, they would be liverpool. 

The main barrier between the difference between teams is not intelligence, it is technical skills. You're pretty much saying that the players of Everton are not smart enough to learn how to play like Liverpool when in actuality they might be and most likely are. The barrier in real life is most of us aren't born with the god given talent of Mohammad Salah or Sadio Mane. Richarlison cannot become Mane because he loses the ball randomly cannot dribble as well as him, isn't as clinical as him and so much more. It doesn't necessarily mean he isn't on Liverpool because he doesn't understand or cannot understand their tactics. Coaches, new players all learn how to play under a system and many thrive just like Diego Jota this season and many fail just like say Divock Origi. 

If you relate this to football manager it means Richarlison does not have the stats to consistently perform as well as Salah and as far as understanding tactics there is a hidden attribute called adaptability in the game which lets a player adapt to tactics/surroundings/teams/new countries.

[vukigepard]

1 minute ago, dominoes012 said:

The main barrier between the difference between teams is not intelligence, it is technical skills. You're pretty much saying that the players of Everton are not smart enough to learn how to play like Liverpool when in actuality they might be and most likely are. The barrier in real life is most of us aren't born with the god given talent of Mohammad Salah or Sadio Mane. Richarlison cannot become Mane because he loses the ball randomly cannot dribble as well as him, isn't as clinical as him and so much more. It doesn't necessarily mean he isn't on Liverpool because he doesn't understand or cannot understand their tactics. Coaches, new players all learn how to play under a system and many thrive just like Diego Jota this season and many fail just like say Divock Origi. 

If you relate this to football manager it means Richarlison does not have the stats to consistently perform as well as Salah and as far as understanding tactics there is a hidden attribute called adaptability in the game which lets a player adapt to tactics/surroundings/teams/new countries.

Everything you wrotes equates to Richardlison not being able to play in a geggenpress like Liverpools because it requires you to be more prolific/better dribbler/better ball control etc etc. So again, i repeat, if he could, he would he Mohammad Salah. So, why are you then agitated when you choose yourself to play a geggenpress where you expect and want someone to perform like Salah and then get exactly that. 

I'm out for the night so i'll try to break my thoughts to simpler logical parts to explain.

1.You copy liverpool playing style (game allows it)

2. You tell the players to play like liverpool (game allows it)

3. They play exactly like liverpool (game allows it)

4. You get results like liverpool (game allows it)

You're blaming the point no. 4 and asking for nerfing the attackers and game not to allow it, but missing the 3 points above which gives you the final result. I have no problem with any of those points because you can control the points 1-3, and indirectly 4.

[dominoes012]

1 minute ago, vukigepard said:

Everything you wrotes equates to Richardlison not being able to play in a geggenpress like Liverpools because it requires you to be more prolific/better dribbler/better ball control etc etc. So again, i repeat, if he could, he would he Mohammad Salah. So, why are you then agitated when you choose yourself to play a geggenpress where you expect and want someone to perform like Salah and then get exactly that. 

I'm out for the night so i'll try to break my thoughts to simpler logical parts to explain.

1.You copy liverpool playing style (game allows it)

2. You tell the players to play like liverpool (game allows it)

3. They play exactly like liverpool (game allows it)

4. You get results like liverpool (game allows it)

You're blaming the point no. 4 and asking for nerfing the attackers and game not to allow it, but missing the 3 points above which gives you the final result. I have no problem with any of those points because you can control the points 1-3, and indirectly 4.

I fully understand your points I want points 1-3 but the point of #4 is my team should not be able to get the same results as Liverpool. Liverpool can beat any team in the world on their day meanwhile if I'm playing as Everton and Huesca barring major upset my team cannot beat every team in the world. What's happening is I'm playing like Liverpool as Huesca and Everton and I'm beating every single team like I'm Liverpool and that is the exact point. You're not understanding that my team should not be able to have the same amount of success as Liverpool if I am not playing as Liverpool even though I am playing their playstyle. That in turn takes me to scout for players to get better players until I have the players to perform as well as Liverpool. Huesca and Everton should not be able to get the results of Liverpool even if they play like them. You clearly do not understand this point and me explaining it to you for the last couple of hours clearly hasn't helped so really there is no point in me trying to convince you. All I will say is have a good night and good luck in FM21 and I hope you have fun.

[Mars_Blackmon]

Lol I'm not even sure what is even being argued.