Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?

[RioImmagina]

42 minuti fa, vukigepard ha scritto:

It's really hard for me to understand when an experienced fm player that has played probably 1000's of hours of different versions has a suprised pikachu face when his tactical set up proves to be good and effective, and then goes on to the forums to complain about the game he spent his good portion of life being easy. You already know all about the morale, form, types of attributes that you need, what is a good tactical set up, how hidden attributes work, what ppm's are useful, opposition instructions, roles, how the ai plays, how to build a team. And if you want to be just average with that knowledge, that is a problem, because at that point, there is nothing left to make you good except fishing for exploits.

And at that point, all you are asking for is more rng, more randomness, that the result from certain play style could go either way, and that is a very bad idea that has frustrated a lot of people in fm19 and 20

I Am a very experienced Victoria 2 player. I know how to drive militancy/consciousness, how to bait enemy, how to control economy and global market. When i Play, i always do better than history. I am Aware that the game (for me) is easy, but i like to Play Victoria 2.

Same thing for FM: i know most of the mechanics of the game, so i think that i will do better than other players. 

We are not talking about mechanics awareness, we are talking about an exploit made with a 442 and some tweaking 

[Broken_Record]

2 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I've argued this since the introduction of the gegenpress into FM - It has to be countered with players getting knackered or injured if managers persist on playing that style for 90 mins match on match. That's the biggest failing. Of course that approach is going to win games without that risk involved. Every team in the world would play this way constantly if there was no fear of burnout. 

If SI do this, they will be absolutely flooded with 'too many injuries' complaints, which has already, frustratingly, led them to reduce the injuries in game to 80% of real life, The sooner they put this back to close too 100% the better. These types of aggressive tactics need to have a consequence, otherwise there's no real strategy involved. 

Agreed and I would also add "countered by the opposition" to this list. Super attacking (which Gegenpress necessarily isn't) systems are usually used only when chasing a result at the end of the game and usually these are "high risk and high reward" type of systems where you often score the goal that you need or concede. The second option of these is at the moment missing and using these type of systems mainly brings the reward, even if you use that kind of system 90 minutes per game, throughout the whole season. That for me is absurd and sadly it's been the thing in the game for a long time. 

[redders1977]

I found FM20 very difficult, any tactic only worked for 1 season max before being found out and it doesn't look like it's changed to me.

Granted 90% of the time I play as Sheffield Wednesday, no money and a points deduction

[RioImmagina]

52 minuti fa, The Basque ha scritto:

I try to explain some more points with the bad english of a german (half turkish).

I explained the main problem some pages before. And i do believe it's very difficult for SI to make the game harder. 

A good start would be a realistic amount of injuries and disregard the players wich are crying. ^^

 

Next point is that the main problem startet with implementing fixed Player Roles and Playing Styles.

Back in the days i played a lot of online-tournaments and in fact, i was the best. Won several titels with up to 40 attendees. It was FM11-13.

The point was, i was winnig because of lead of knowledge about FM and tactics. I created for example an own formation, wich does not appear in FM. 4-1-2-2-1 (with 1 CDM, 2 CM and 2 CAM). 

It was possible to tune up things with player insctructions to be better than others, even with worse teams. 

In Online Saves with up to 4 guys, i made the same successful experience.

 

In the last years almonst everyone, i am playing with, can mess with me. 

And that's not because i am getting worse and not because of everyone is now a Arrigo Sacchi.

Back in the days you could even have a lead only because of figuring out the better training or analyse the next opponent. Slider-Era!

 

I startet (2008) with a weekend only reading about FM using the Tactical Theorems and Framework. Learning that everything has influence, even pitch condition...weather and so on.

Nowadays all the things are not that important anymore. 

 

You can break it down to

- Less injuries

- Gegenpressing combined with Offensive duty

- High Coach Attribute like former National Player and UEFA licence. 

 

No need for analysis, match preperation, good scouting (wich was also more difficult in the past), not even training. Let the assistant do it and everything will be ok xD

 

What i wish is, that it makes a difference whether i am an expert or not. 

Please don't get me wrong. It's not the point that i think i am an FM Guru, there are others for sure, but it should matter if i am able to analyse, prepar (including training) and scout, or not. 

 

The main point is, that it is much much more joy to win a title if you must do a lot of coaching and invest time in it. That's the beauty of success. Not click and go!

They could do an arcade version (very simplified-for beginners) and a expertise version. People can transfer save files between the two versions

[craigmoore02]

8 minutes ago, RioImmagina said:

They could do an arcade version (very simplified-for beginners) and a expertise version. People can transfer save files between the two versions

Love when people throw out "they could do..." like it's the simplest thing in the world. Imagine the time and effort involved to produce 2 distinct versions of a game. Never mind the complexity involved to transfer files between those 2 versions. 

[bobbyb12345]

1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

This thread;

Everyone - we think the game should be a realistic challenge.

Person A - I find it very easy.

Person B - That's bad. Are you cheating?

Person A - No.

Person B - then you should upload your save, no one wants it to be easy.

Person A - No.

Person A - posts again later in the thread moaning it's too easy.

I'm not sure "prove it, we think you're lying" is the brilliant argument you think it is.

[afailed10]

Increasing injuries to prevent players abusing aggressive playstyles is just going around the issue. When managing a big team in a weak league such as Porto, Ajax, Juve, PSG, etc you have the "luxury" of rotating the whole team for domestic games and still win easily. It's not that difficult in FM. In fact I've always done that way. 

What they have to do is to make high pressing properly difficult to setup. Make low concentration, anticipation, work rate actually count for pressing and denying space, making your team very vulnerable without a well designed system and the suitable players. 

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb bobbyb12345:

I'm not sure "prove it, we think you're lying" is the brilliant argument you think it is.

Instead of insulting others you could do something productive? That moves the game forward

[Freakiie]

"Gegenpressing is inherently OP"

Again, is it though? I took Man City on a holiday save with the preset from harry and ended third, had a horrible CL showing and only had an FA cup to show for all of it. Now harry uses a bunch off PIs, at which point the tactic I guess starts looking what you'd see knap produce, which will be broken, but clearly at that point it's not simply the basic Gegenpressing preset anymore.

What is OP (and has been for ages in FM) is playing very aggressively as a lower reputation team (To the point that "second season syndrome" is something we see complaints about every year, since you over performing will massively boost club expectations and suddenly you don't have all the space in the world anymore) and Gegenpressing is simply the preset that accomplishes this the best. As a result the AI can also massively over perform with smaller clubs actually. Look at Germany, lots of Gegenpressing coaches and these are very common results:

Meanwhile, Favre, who is also a Gegenpress manager is horrible at Dortmund. Why? Because Dortmund is a big club, so the opponents will barely give you space and you will struggle incredibly hard.

In my saves Dortmund has been struggling incredibly hard (to the point of going through multiple managers a season, not reaching Europe etc), meanwhile, that holiday save that screenshot is from all I did was set up a positive 4-3-3 DM (which arguably isn't even the most suited formation for Dortmund, but that wasn't the point here), with not a single instruction whatsoever and I massively manage to outperform the AI manager, despite that manager playing in the supposedly most broken preset on FM, while only ending 3 points behind Bayern and 6 points behind the surprise Champions Gladbach.

Just a few more examples, here's the first season of my Bayern test save, Köln and Schalke again massively over performing, the top clubs that are playing Gegenpressing massively struggling (Dortmund and Bayer)

In my Iceland save things are a bit more normal, but again Dortmund just massively struggling (But managed to scrape an Euro cup win for CL qualification)

So all in all, I wouldn't say things are anywhere near as clear cut as "Gegenpressing is OP, game is EZ". Playing aggressively with a low reputation side is overpowered, yes that's probably fair to say. Unfortunately that has been an issue with FM for a while now and already was a thing before we ever got the Gegenpressing preset. Is Gegenpressing inherently OP, eh I'm not so sure on that to be honest.

Would difficulty levels do anything here? I severely doubt it. Aside from SI probably never wanting to code the ME in a way that it differs between AI and user controlled teams (leaving aside whether it'd even be feasible) adding a couple attributes or some morale would hardly make a difference when the inherent issues lie much deeper than just this. We've already seen often enough people easily demolish the league despite massive quality differences between their team and the opposition. The inherent issue of leaving lower reputation teams too much space would not be solved by some extra attributes.

In the end, the AI would need to be much more proactive when approaching over achieving teams, but making the AI do more always leaves the question of performance. There simply is a limit to how many calculations you can let the AI run before the game becomes impossible to play unless you have some super computer in your basement. As for difficulty at top teams, there's just so many factors where the manager will gain an advantage over the AI, outside of the direct competition during a match, that it'll be nearly impossible to be truly challenged when picking a top team. Even if you give them some extra attributes when playing against you, how often would that actually make a difference? On the other hand, how often do you just get the championship thrown into your lap simply because the competition flops? Especially in the long run once superior squad building, player management and squad rotation starts kicking in.

[RioImmagina]

3 minuti fa, craigmoore02 ha scritto:

Love when people throw out "they could do..." like it's the simplest thing in the world. Imagine the time and effort involved to produce 2 distinct versions of a game. Never mind the complexity involved to transfer files between those 2 versions. 

So:

Gegenpress is overpowered -> send save files! -> no -> add more injuries -> no, people revolting for too many injuries -> they can do two games -> no It's too complex. 

12 pages of thread and the only solution that we had is "you have to modify your game in order to Play with an attacking formation". 50 Euros to SI and big thank to modders

[Mars_Blackmon]

3 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I've argued this since the introduction of the gegenpress into FM - It has to be countered with players getting knackered or injured if managers persist on playing that style for 90 mins match on match. That's the biggest failing. Of course that approach is going to win games without that risk involved. Every team in the world would play this way constantly if there was no fear of burnout. 

If SI do this, they will be absolutely flooded with 'too many injuries' complaints, which has already, frustratingly, led them to reduce the injuries in game to 80% of real life, The sooner they put this back to close too 100% the better. These types of aggressive tactics need to have a consequence, otherwise there's no real strategy involved. 

And that's the point everyone was making before holiday saves test took over the thread. This is what makes it easy and it's just ONE of the exploits in the game that makes it easy. 

It's not just high line, high press that is OP. combine that with the AI playing way too defensive will also let you overachieve especially if your team is constantly being the aggressor. 

 

I'm overcheiving with Oxford City with delagted transfers playing a control possession tactic...Im undefeated with 15 games in now. 

 

FWIW, finishing mid table while predicted to battle relegation with little effort is still overachieving. 

 

I'm guessing that the poll was created to see how many people are ok or not ok with basically an arcade version of FM. Not to brag about winning or ask for house rules.

[Junkhead]

11 minutes ago, bobbyb12345 said:

I'm not sure "prove it, we think you're lying" is the brilliant argument you think it is.

Yeah you're right.

Feel free to point me to where I said that to anyone 👍

[craigmoore02]

2 minutes ago, RioImmagina said:

So:

Gegenpress is overpowered -> send save files! -> no -> add more injuries -> no, people revolting for too many injuries -> they can do two games -> no It's too complex. 

12 pages of thread and the only solution that we had is "you have to modify your game in order to Play with an attacking formation". 50 Euros to SI and big thank to modders

Some of these things shouldn't be in the same category. Making two games IS complex. Anyone that is flat out saying "no" to uploading their save shouldn't be moaning. They should either help out or move along.

Not sure I quite understand the point about injuries though. Is the suggestion that by just adding more injuries to players that would make the game harder? If so that's utterly ludicrous and unrealistic. 

[RioImmagina]

2 minuti fa, Mars_Blackmon ha scritto:

And that's the point everyone was making before holiday saves test took over the thread. This is what makes it easy and it's just ONE of the exploits in the game that makes it easy. 

It's not just high line, high press that is OP. combine that with the AI playing way too defensive will also let you overachieve especially if your team is constantly being the aggressor. 

 

I'm overcheiving with Oxford City with delagted transfers playing a control possession tactic...Im undefeated with 15 games in now. 

 

FWIW, finishing mid table while predicted to battle relegation is still overachieving. 

Gegenpress is one of the standard tactics. Standard. Like parking the bus. It's incredibile that a standard tactic is an exlpoit

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb craigmoore02:

Some of these things shouldn't be in the same category. Making two games IS complex. Anyone that is flat out saying "no" to uploading their save shouldn't be moaning. They should either help out or move along.

Not sure I quite understand the point about injuries though. Is the suggestion that by just adding more injuries to players that would make the game harder? If so that's utterly ludicrous and unrealistic. 

it's not unrealistic, it's add the realism back. SI reduced injuries for about 20% compared to real life. putting it back to 100% and there you have your more challenging game. as simple as that. Download the file I uploaded and you will see what the impact will be. Explanation follows after the first screenshot.

[Mars_Blackmon]

Just now, RioImmagina said:

Gegenpress is one of the standard tactics. Standard. Like parking the bus. It's incredibile that a standard tactic is an exlpoit

Agree and that's why it's shouldn't be ignored as a work around. Obviously FM is aware as they tried to make changes to high-intensity tactics but just like injuries are only 80% of the real number, you have to wonder how much of an impact high intensity tactics really have on players. That's not really a bug if it's intentional.

[Junkhead]

9 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

"Gegenpressing is inherently OP"

Again, is it though? I took Man City on a holiday save with the preset from harry and ended third, had a horrible CL showing and only had an FA cup to show for all of it. Now harry uses a bunch off PIs, at which point the tactic I guess starts looking what you'd see knap produce, which will be broken, but clearly at that point it's not simply the basic Gegenpressing preset anymore.

What is OP (and has been for ages in FM) is playing very aggressively as a lower reputation team (To the point that "second season syndrome" is something we see complaints about every year, since you over performing will massively boost club expectations and suddenly you don't have all the space in the world anymore) and Gegenpressing is simply the preset that accomplishes this the best. As a result the AI can also massively over perform with smaller clubs actually. Look at Germany, lots of Gegenpressing coaches and these are very common results:

Meanwhile, Favre, who is also a Gegenpress manager is horrible at Dortmund. Why? Because Dortmund is a big club, so the opponents will barely give you space and you will struggle incredibly hard.

In my saves Dortmund has been struggling incredibly hard (to the point of going through multiple managers a season, not reaching Europe etc), meanwhile, that holiday save that screenshot is from all I did was set up a positive 4-3-3 DM (which arguably isn't even the most suited formation for Dortmund, but that wasn't the point here), with not a single instruction whatsoever and I massively manage to outperform the AI manager, despite that manager playing in the supposedly most broken preset on FM, while only ending 3 points behind Bayern and 6 points behind the surprise Champions Gladbach.

Just a few more examples, here's the first season of my Bayern test save, Köln and Schalke again massively over performing, the top clubs that are playing Gegenpressing massively struggling (Dortmund and Bayer)

In my Iceland save things are a bit more normal, but again Dortmund just massively struggling (But managed to scrape an Euro cup win for CL qualification)

So all in all, I wouldn't say things are anywhere near as clear cut as "Gegenpressing is OP, game is EZ". Playing aggressively with a low reputation side is overpowered, yes that's probably fair to say. Unfortunately that has been an issue with FM for a while now and already was a thing before we ever got the Gegenpressing preset. Is Gegenpressing inherently OP, eh I'm not so sure on that to be honest.

Would difficulty levels do anything here? I severely doubt it. Aside from SI probably never wanting to code the ME in a way that it differs between AI and user controlled teams (leaving aside whether it'd even be feasible) adding a couple attributes or some morale would hardly make a difference when the inherent issues lie much deeper than just this. We've already seen often enough people easily demolish the league despite massive quality differences between their team and the opposition. The inherent issue of leaving lower reputation teams too much space would not be solved by some extra attributes.

In the end, the AI would need to be much more proactive when approaching over achieving teams, but making the AI do more always leaves the question of performance. There simply is a limit to how many calculations you can let the AI run before the game becomes impossible to play unless you have some super computer in your basement. As for difficulty at top teams, there's just so many factors where the manager will gain an advantage over the AI, outside of the direct competition during a match, that it'll be nearly impossible to be truly challenged when picking a top team. Even if you give them some extra attributes when playing against you, how often would that actually make a difference? On the other hand, how often do you just get the championship thrown into your lap simply because the competition flops? Especially in the long run once superior squad building, player management and squad rotation starts kicking in.

Really good post this. Well thought out reasoning behind what you are seeing, and a fair argument against it being all high press tactics.

Any chance we can get it uploaded for SI to look at in the bugs forum?

[rp1966]

14 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

 

In the end, the AI would need to be much more proactive when approaching over achieving teams, but making the AI do more always leaves the question of performance. There simply is a limit to how many calculations you can let the AI run before the game becomes impossible to play unless you have some super computer in your basement. As for difficulty at top teams, there's just so many factors where the manager will gain an advantage over the AI, outside of the direct competition during a match, that it'll be nearly impossible to be truly challenged when picking a top team. Even if you give them some extra attributes when playing against you, how often would that actually make a difference? On the other hand, how often do you just get the championship thrown into your lap simply because the competition flops? Especially in the long run once superior squad building, player management and squad rotation starts kicking in.

Could this affect on leagues be countered by setting all teams to equal reputation in the editor?  Given the issues around the way the game uses reputation it sounds like an experiment that someone may have already done. 

If I wasn't an FMT player* I probably would have!

 

 

(* Insert obligatory moan about lack of FMT editor here)

Edited November 19, 2020 by rp1966

[craigmoore02]

2 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

it's not unrealistic, it's add the realism back. SI reduced injuries for about 20% compared to real life. putting it back to 100% and there you have your more challenging game. as simple as that. Download the file I uploaded and you will see what the impact will be. Explanation follows after the first screenshot.

I don't understand these percentages. What is 100%? Are you saying that more players should be injured more often to make the game challenging? If so I disagree that adds realism. 

[Junkhead]

Just now, craigmoore02 said:

I don't understand these percentages. What is 100%? Are you saying that more players should be injured more often to make the game challenging? If so I disagree that adds realism. 

It is more realistic, because SI include about 80% real life injury rate, as they have said before. Therefore it's 20% less realistic than it should be.

[JordanMilly]

17 hours ago, craiigman said:

Man Utd seem to be OP in all screenshots I’ve seen so far, even the AI

That's because United are in an odd situation IRL - by all rights, with the team they have, they should be doing well. They just... aren't, and it doesn't appear to be because of the technical ability of most of their players. It's something kind of difficult to replicate with numbers and calculations.

[Mars_Blackmon]

3 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

That's because United are in an odd situation IRL - by all rights, with the team they have, they should be doing well. They just... aren't, and it doesn't appear to be because of the technical ability of most of their players. It's something kind of difficult to replicate with numbers and calculations.

Seem like manager attributes and AI managers in general are due for an overhaul. 

 

i don't follow ManU much but it also seem like a team cohesion problem which can simply be ignored in FM.

[craigmoore02]

Just now, Junkhead said:

It is more realistic, because SI include about 80% real life injury rate, as they have said before. Therefore it's 20% less realistic than it should be.

Ok that's the part I was missing. So the proposal is to put it back to 100%. I've no issue with that. I thought the solution being suggested was to just make it so more of your players got injured thus making winning matches harder. Thanks for the clarity. 

[rp1966]

6 minutes ago, rp1966 said:

Could this affect on leagues be countered by setting all teams to equal reputation in the editor? 

The other thought that occurs is 'how would the ME play if it ignored the reputation of the human player's team', which presumably isn't the only metric being used to decide the 'AI' manager's tactics.

 

 

[afailed10]

1 minuto atrás, JordanMillward_1 disse:

That's because United are in an odd situation IRL - by all rights, with the team they have, they should be doing well. They just... aren't, and it doesn't appear to be because of the technical ability of most of their players. It's something kind of difficult to replicate with numbers and calculations.

That's entirely subjective while their results of previous seasons is not. 

How the heck Wan-Bissaka has 20 tackling? He just has to tackle a lot due to poor positioning. He never showed anything in CL knockouts or for the NT. Same can be said for Martial, Greenwood, Shaw, etc. Players that never showed anything outside domestic games against fodder. But i guess this is not the place for this however EPL is massively overrated which is making the game too easy for whoever manages there. 

[sergivela]

In my opinion, SI should find ways to make the game harder without artificially boosting the AI, and while keeping the balance between AI and Player teams. I think the way to do so is to make life harder to ANY team that is consistently "succeeding", not only the player. By succeeding I mean getting promotions or winning trophies, depending on the teams reputation.

I think that is the right way to make the game harder, as it avoids artificial penalties to the player or boost to the AI. 

A couple of options in this line:

-Change how players and staff react to winning. Maybe add a hidden complacency attribute that increases after "succeeding", in a way that players stop training and playing hard, thus forcing the team to renew its squad if complacency gets too bad. The complacency hidden stat could depend on the person's determination stat and personality, and could affect Work Rate, bravery, concentration and similar stats. Complacency could reset to 0 after the player is transfered to another team. In practice, this would penalize teams winning too often, as it often happens. I find very unrealistic that I can systematically keep my players at high training ratings after several successful seasons. IRL very few teams are able to concatenate long periods of success.

-Introduce more complex player interactions in squads, in a way that my dressing room atmosphere is not always maxed out. Star players should compete more often to be the better-payed in a squad, and should develop rivalries more often. This would help preventing the player and AI to assemble too-dominating squads both by ego competition, and budget constrains

Of course, this goes in parallel with fixing MAE bugs that players can exploit

 

[Junkhead]

3 minutes ago, craigmoore02 said:

Ok that's the part I was missing. So the proposal is to put it back to 100%. I've no issue with that. I thought the solution being suggested was to just make it so more of your players got injured thus making winning matches harder. Thanks for the clarity. 

@Daveincidputs out an editor file to correct this, and it's excellent.

In my current save I am 6 weeks in and haven't had a single injury 😔. Can't wait for the file to come out.

[craigmoore02]

Just now, Junkhead said:

@Daveincidputs out an editor file to correct this, and it's excellent.

In my current save I am 6 weeks in and haven't had a single injury 😔. Can't wait for the file to come out.

I haven't really noticed an issue with it being low to be honest. I did a save with Man Utd and I was too busy enjoying myself haha. Rashford and Greenwood both had injuries which kept them out for several months but now that I think about it aside from that it was just the odd "bruised shin" that popped up here and there. I recently started a save with Everton though and boy did I get hit hard with injuries in that one. Made sense as I was playing a lot of the players every game and at a high tempo...even had to use U21 players to fill the bench. 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

28 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

Playing aggressively with a low reputation side is overpowered, yes that's probably fair to say.

Superb post.

I do agree with what you're saying. I also note that the player base seems to have a tendency to lean towards overtly aggressive tactics as a default. Most of the stuff popping up in "tactical" download forums etc, tend to be obnoxiously aggressive, with settings and such that seem crazy, yet pulls out ridiculous wins on the basis of the aggression just seeming to be impossible for teams to get out of/bypass.

I think not only do small teams need to be weaker when being aggressive, but aggressive tactics need to be bypassed more easily by players of quality, whether that's entirely a tactical issue or whether it attributes aren't doing enough of a job is the question for me. (If that makes sense?)

[JordanMilly]

5 minutes ago, afailed10 said:

That's entirely subjective while their results of previous seasons is not. 

How the heck Wan-Bissaka has 20 tackling? He just has to tackle a lot due to poor positioning. He never showed anything in CL knockouts or for the NT. Same can be said for Martial, Greenwood, Shaw, etc. Players that never showed anything outside domestic games against fodder. But i guess this is not the place for this however EPL is massively overrated which is making the game too easy for whoever manages there. 

I agree that some teams in the Prem have players with higher attributes than they should, and that across the board there should be a redressing of that through most leagues. That's something down to the United researcher, however, and should be raised in the research threads in the bug forum.

[Junkhead]

1 minute ago, craigmoore02 said:

I haven't really noticed an issue with it being low to be honest. I did a save with Man Utd and I was too busy enjoying myself haha. Rashford and Greenwood both had injuries which kept them out for several months but now that I think about it aside from that it was just the odd "bruised shin" that popped up here and there. I recently started a save with Everton though and boy did I get hit hard with injuries in that one. Made sense as I was playing a lot of the players every game and at a high tempo...even had to use U21 players to fill the bench. 

The injuries on the file tend to be an increase in muscular injuries which stop people training for short periods of time, which is what doesn't often happen in the vanilla game.

[craigmoore02]

7 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

The injuries on the file tend to be an increase in muscular injuries which stop people training for short periods of time, which is what doesn't often happen in the vanilla game.

Ah I see. I never usually use add on files and have mostly just played the game "out of the box". Have been thinking about this year downloading all sorts of packs (mostly faces and kits) but I might check out that injury file too 

[Mars_Blackmon]

There is nothing wrong with this approach, the problem comes in when it's so easy to pull it off consistently.

 

Installments been too forgiven since it's addition.

 

 

[Freakiie]

7 minutes ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

Superb post.

I do agree with what you're saying. I also note that the player base seems to have a tendency to lean towards overtly aggressive tactics as a default. Most of the stuff popping up in "tactical" download forums etc, tend to be obnoxiously aggressive, with settings and such that seem crazy, yet pulls out ridiculous wins on the basis of the aggression just seeming to be impossible for teams to get out of/bypass.

I think not only do small teams need to be weaker when being aggressive, but aggressive tactics need to be bypassed more easily by players of quality, whether that's entirely a tactical issue or whether it attributes aren't doing enough of a job is the question for me. (If that makes sense?)

It's really hard to say. We often see in real life that there are some teams that just take it to the opposition (Leeds this year for example), and that will generally result in goals and can definitely lead to some surprises. On the other hand, Leeds still has a -3 GD and they have been punished hard, which I guess is where the issue lies in FM, you don't get punished enough. If you play against a top side while leaving a lot of space, you should be able to create some solid chances by abusing the space they leave behind, but you should also be peppered by the opposition.

Part of it is also down to attributes without a doubt, as we've seen with players being able to press 90 minutes without having the stats for it, clubs being able to keep the ball for ages in midfield under pressure, while up against a far superior side, defenders with no technical ability being capable of smoothly playing it out of defense and so on. So, attributes and the way they work definitely are an issue as well.

[craiigman]

32 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

That's because United are in an odd situation IRL - by all rights, with the team they have, they should be doing well. They just... aren't, and it doesn't appear to be because of the technical ability of most of their players. It's something kind of difficult to replicate with numbers and calculations.

I agree but then make the players inconsistent? Some of the hidden attributes can make a big affect on how they perform.

[Fmfan00]

On 17/11/2020 at 08:19, harrycarrie said:

Nah its hard enough

 

 

 

What tactic do u use?

[Dagenham_Dave]

17 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

There is nothing wrong with this approach, the problem comes in when it's so easy to pull it off consistently.

 

Installments been too forgiven since it's addition.

 

 

It's his beta save, not a long term one. He won't see the obvious consequences further on down the line. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

6 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's his beta save, not a long term one. He won't see the obvious consequences further on down the line. 

Not much of a consequence if you can potentially win the CL every year and make up the money.

[Lempicka]

2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Not much of a consequence if you can potentially win the CL every year and make up the money.

Sounds like what Peter Ridsdale had in mind at Leeds.

[Freakiie]

3 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Not much of a consequence if you can potentially win the CL every year and make up the money.

But what exactly is the issue?

Yes installments can be nonsense, but they're perfectly realistic at the same time. All bigger transfers in real life are done in installments, since barely any club has that much cash on hand. Clubs are also perfectly fine accepting payment in installments as they don't want to sit on a lot of cash and it's not as if clubs haven't gone broke in the past due to massively overestimating future income and nearly going bankrupt once their remaining transfer requirements stop matching their income.

On the other hand, if you make this gamble and then perform and the players you bought on installments turn out to be superstars you can resell for double or even more the price you paid for them, you're perfectly fine and there are plenty of "academy" clubs that survive based on this principle alone.

So, what are you gonna fix? Instead of constantly yelling INSTALLMENTS INSTALLMENTS INSTALLMENTS INSTALLMENTS INSTALLMENTS INSTALLMENTS INSTALLMENTS, what do you suggest is actually changed here? Where lies the actual issue and how would you go about changing this?

[Mars_Blackmon]

25 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

But what exactly is the issue?

Yes installments can be nonsense, but they're perfectly realistic at the same time. All bigger transfers in real life are done in installments, since barely any club has that much cash on hand. Clubs are also perfectly fine accepting payment in installments as they don't want to sit on a lot of cash and it's not as if clubs haven't gone broke in the past due to massively overestimating future income and nearly going bankrupt once their remaining transfer requirements stop matching their income.

On the other hand, if you make this gamble and then perform and the players you bought on installments turn out to be superstars you can resell for double or even more the price you paid for them, you're perfectly fine and there are plenty of "academy" clubs that survive based on this principle alone.

So, what are you gonna fix? Instead of constantly yelling INSTALLMENTS INSTALLMENTS INSTALLMENTS INSTALLMENTS INSTALLMENTS INSTALLMENTS INSTALLMENTS, what do you suggest is actually changed here? Where lies the actual issue and how would you go about changing this?

You replied with all of that just to pretty much agree with me in your first sentence.

 

You're trying to argue a point i never made.

 

1. Board should be much more aware of future finances and should probably block if the money doesn't add up.

 

2. Players should ask for way more money for installments. You get the bargain now but you're  paying way over value in the long run.

 

As I said in my original post, it's been too forgiven.

[EriksenSpurs]

3 hours ago, RioImmagina said:

Correct. You can create this tactic easily, starting with a standard 4-4-2 and step-by-step tweaking roles and duties. In the second year you will dominate.

We're not talkin about a very absurd tactic like a 4-0-6 or a 1-2-4-3, something that NO ONE would do IRL. We are talking about a very easy to achive 442

Incorrect. Somebody copied the tactic without the specific player instructions and it was nowhere near as effective. There are thousands of combinations with formations, team instructions & player instructions, you wouldn't just begin with a simple blank 4-4-2 and within a year 'dominate'. A player instruction as simple as 'stay wide' or a team instruction as simple as 'mixed crosses' could be the difference between an average tactic and an overpowered/exploit tactic. 

If it was 'easy' to create a tactic this effective based off of a 4-4-2, then nobody would bother coming to these types of forums to download Knap's tactics in the first place.

The reason we're discussing this specific tactic is because Knap, and other tactic creators have been making tactics for as long as I remember, with the sole purpose to exploit the match engine to produce a 'plug and play' tactic for players that don't want to grind and put absurd hours in. 

 

For the record, I couldn't give a monkeys whether it's too hard or too easy, I enjoy it nonetheless. I also download tactics myself and enjoy Knap's work. 

 

Some players are better than others, that's fine. However I'm unsure why you'd come to a forum to complain it's too easy when you're downloading tactics that have proven to be overpowered. If you believe it's an issue, like people have suggested previously, start a thread in the Bugs Fourm and upload your save. 

 

Have a nice day. 

[SCCP1910]

On 17/11/2020 at 14:19, herne79 said:

How exactly would people like it to be harder?  What specific aspects?  It's no good saying just make the ME harder or the AI smarter.  That doesn't actually say anything.  What specific aspects do you find too easy?  So for example:

1) Match Engine.  Lets assume for a moment that SI implement a way that the ME can determine which team is human controlled and which is AI controlled (it can't at present).  This is important if you want the ME to have a difficulty setting.  So, how to give the ME a difficulty setting?  Reduce the human controlled player's Consistency?  Make defenders less likely to tackle?  Have varying degrees of a striker's ability to Finish?  Nerf midfielder's passing ability?  And, above all of this, ensure the ME is kept as realistic and true to actual football as possible, because if you start to see (for example) strikers missing 1v1s or passing constantly going astray, imagine the outcry.

So how specifically to give the ME varying degrees of difficulty (assuming it can be changed to tell the difference between human and AI controlled teams) but keep it true to real football?

2) Tactics.  Lots of people (and I appreciate there are exceptions) talk in terms of using so-called exploit tactics, or perhaps the preset gegenpress tactic.  Well on the one hand, that's on you not the game.  That's your choice, not the game's problem, so don't complain if you find the game too easy from that aspect.  However, on the other hand, perhaps there is scope to limit what tactical strategies you are able to use when setting up your own tactical system within varying difficulty settings.  Maybe limit which Mentalities you are able to set?  Reduce the number of player roles and duties available?  Limit the amount of TIs available to be used.  But then that may also limit the style of play you are able to give your team, so would that be an acceptable trade off?

3) Players.  Perhaps it might be possible to limit attributes for players within human controlled teams?  Maybe limit them to a maximum of say 15 in any given category?  But then what if you sell a player to an AI team?  Those attributes would need to somehow artificially increase.  And what about when you play with <insert elite player name here> and he doesn't bear any resemblance to the actual player?  Is that acceptable?

4) Player development.  Perhaps we could have varying degrees of difficulty in slowing down and/or limiting player development.  Only allow a certain level of CA to be reached.  Allow reduced amounts of CA growth in any given time frame.  Of course this may only have a significant impact if you happen to be a manager who puts great emphasis on in house development and could easily be overcome with transfers....

5) Transfers.  Again, we can see talk of how some people "exploit" the transfer system.  And again, if you do that, that's on you.  That's your problem, not the game's, because you are making the choice to game the system in this manner and use it in unintended ways.  But that to one side, how to give the transfer system difficulty levels?  Make players more expensive for human controlled teams?  Again this would need a system in place to determine who the human controlled team is.  Limit the amount of scouting possible?  Permanently hide certain attributes from scout reports?  Reduce your transfer budget?  Make it so players become more reluctant to join your team?  Stop loans to low level clubs?

And again, how would any of this stay within the bounds of realism?  Or is it just a case of realism be damned and have SI turn things into a more arcade style game?

6) AI.  This is a tough one as unless we are going to give every user a PC the equivalent of Deep Thought, the AI is never going to be as capable as us human managers can be.  Just think about that for a moment - essentially, no matter what, we will always have an advantage over the AI.  The AI can of course be improved, and indeed is with every iteration of FM released, but we get into the realms of hardware limitations.  Who are we to say "yup, give us an AI who can create better tactics, make better transfers and develop their players expertly, but only if we have a top end system and tough luck to all the poor schmucks who don't, let them eat cake".  There have been plenty of threads which have essentially stated just that.  How egalitarian.

(And btw if the AI was even close to being as capable as a human manager nobody would ever win anything lol).

 

Anyway, that's just a few very basic thoughts.  Of course over all of this subject is SI's desire (and indeed their customer's desire) to produce and play a realistic simulation of football and football management, and real life football doesn't have a difficulty setting.  So it's all well and good saying give us a difficulty setting / make the game harder, but how specifically?

1) Yeah, I don't know the answer to that, but I think the ME is pretty good as it is right now.

2) This might be a **** idea, but the available roles, TIs and styles should be tied to your Tactical Knowledge attribute. Say you're a Vanarama South coach with sunday league experience and only a National C badge, you should have fairly limited tactical choices and less chance of getting a Vertical Tiki-Taka style to work than Pep Guardiola, for example. 

3) Attributes should be much more fluid and form-based imo, except for elite players, because that's roughly how it works in real life. The ability to turn bad patches of form around should then be tied to your Man Management and other similar attributes. Managers, AI and human, qith more man management should be able to extract every last drop from players, like Ferguson winning the league with Cleverley, Anderson and Rafael as regular starters.

4) Player development should be tied to your manager attributes and your clubs' facilities. For example, Crewe and Norwich should naturally be able to develop better players than Northampton and Harrogate (youth facilities, recruitment coaching and reputation would come into play, as well as your working with youngsters and man-management attributes).

5) Yeah thats on the players

6) Fair too


As "my version of FM" would be much more manager attribute-based, it should be much easier to improve them through coaching courses.

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by SCCP1910

[sverige91]

People who have kids and job, likes it this way. Play a little, enjoy and then go back to normal life, Dont have time to adjust after every few matches and pull the hair out every save. All the time goes in to learning about tactics , which might dont work after a new update. (Right now, you have too play "Aggressive" to win, You still cant play however you want and win, So for the occasional player this Beta is perfect)
People who are complaining right now, Will still complain on after it gets harder. People will still find a way to cheat ME, Last Year Set Pieces, Before that Longthrow i think. Right now they are not having problems with the games, they are having problems with others having fun. People are not really starting tacticals threads where they can drop their knowledge and tell others how easy the game is. 

There are ways to make the game harder, if you have problem with installments then dont use it. People are having problems with other using it, thats their game they will use it they want. if you think its an exploit then dont use it. People here wants to control how other people want to play the game. 

Thats my opinion , they shouldnt change attacking and goals. They should fix bugs with goalkeeper positioning and some other stuff. More goals are fun not BUG!

[RioImmagina]

14 minuti fa, EriksenSpurs ha scritto:

Incorrect. Somebody copied the tactic without the specific player instructions and it was nowhere near as effective. There are thousands of combinations with formations, team instructions & player instructions, you wouldn't just begin with a simple blank 4-4-2 and within a year 'dominate'. A player instruction as simple as 'stay wide' or a team instruction as simple as 'mixed crosses' could be the difference between an average tactic and an overpowered/exploit tactic. 

If it was 'easy' to create a tactic this effective based off of a 4-4-2, then nobody would bother coming to these types of forums to download Knap's tactics in the first place.

The reason we're discussing this specific tactic is because Knap, and other tactic creators have been making tactics for as long as I remember, with the sole purpose to exploit the match engine to produce a 'plug and play' tactic for players that don't want to grind and put absurd hours in. 

 

For the record, I couldn't give a monkeys whether it's too hard or too easy, I enjoy it nonetheless. I also download tactics myself and enjoy Knap's work. 

 

Some players are better than others, that's fine. However I'm unsure why you'd come to a forum to complain it's too easy when you're downloading tactics that have proven to be overpowered. If you believe it's an issue, like people have suggested previously, start a thread in the Bugs Fourm and upload your save. 

 

Have a nice day. 

I have to disagree. If you are an average fm player (not a person who download a tactic, use a wk list and then say "i'm the best manager") you can spot the problem and tweak the roles at the point that the tactic is a steamroller.

I Never downloaded a tactic, and i don't know why a person has to do this in a game where creating a tactic is a fondamental part of the game

[FMunderachiever]

If the game was true to real life if you managed walsall or barrow youd probably be down in the bottom 2 divisions forever. Thats what REAL football managers with coaching licenses can achieve. You are just button clickers.

 

So if the game was like real life it would probably be extremely boring for many people or take a level of effort most people arent willing to put in.

[FMunderachiever]

If the game was true to real life if you managed walsall or barrow youd probably be down in the bottom 2 divisions forever. Thats what REAL football managers with coaching licenses can achieve. You are just button clickers.

 

So if the game was like real life it would probably be extremely boring for many people or take a level of effort most people arent willing to put in.

[MagicTiger]

The game should be definitly more challanging.

A win only matters, if it's not for free.

Edited November 19, 2020 by MagicTiger

[BJG123]

I agree with others that the game is too easy.  I used a 4-2-3-1 gegenpress tactic, with attacking mentality. Playing as Norwich I got promoted with 100 points (ok, not entirely unrealistic with good signings and management) and with Adam Idah, in real-life a talented prospect but not quite starting XI material, and in-game a player with no attribute about 15, scoring a goal every 80 minutes.

First season in the Prem and I don't adjust my tactics at all, apart from in 2 games early season against top clubs where I played with a holding midfielder and balanced mentality. Abandoned this as it wasn't getting results.  I ended up finishing 2nd in the Prem, 85 points (2 off City) and with Adam Idah again scoring a goal every 80 mins on his way to the Golden Boot in Europe. 

I love a lot about the new game, but I'm back to my FM20 saves now because winning the league comfortably in my 3rd season as Norwich isn't the game I want.

[SCCP1910]

7 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

If the game was true to real life if you managed walsall or barrow youd probably be down in the bottom 2 divisions forever. Thats what REAL football managers with coaching licenses can achieve. You are just button clickers.

 

So if the game was like real life it would probably be extremely boring for many people or take a level of effort most people arent willing to put in.

Imagine managing Rochdale in this ultra-realistic world 


An infinite slog through League Two and mid-table L1

Edited November 19, 2020 by SCCP1910