Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?

[kingking]

If the devs are not implementing a Difficulty mode, then for FM 2022 let us have a headline feature stating "REVAMPED A.I" please

Edited November 23, 2020 by kingking

[Defensive]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Mars_Blackmon:

So the passive AI manager thing may not be a bug but a database issue.

 

 

So what does that mean? The problem can only be solved when the database is corrected sometime in the future and we start a new save game with new database in february or something?

[Junkhead]

2 minutes ago, Defensive said:

So what does that mean? The problem can only be solved when the database is corrected sometime in the future and we start a new save game with new database in february or something?

If they know how to fix it now they will fix it now.

Why would it be February?

Edited November 23, 2020 by Junkhead

[bluehefner]

6 hours ago, Junkhead said:

This post hits the nail on the head for me. Lots of people (not everyone) who are saying this game is easy are playing the game. They know certain tactics are OP so they are using them. There was a thread in GD yesterday with someone saying that they got no challenge in Serie C because they had a side full of unrealistic loan signings such as people from PSG. Then it turned out that it was the user that signed them.

I am struggling to understand what people want here.  They are not willing to moderate their own behaviour or play style but we must have had 40 pages of this discussion now across multiple threads.

- Difficulty levels aren't going to happen.

- the AI should be improved as much as possible and hopefully it will be on a version by version basis.

- if you think the game is too easy, something is OP or unrealistic, post it in the bugs forum and crack on. Moderate your own behaviour if you want, but you don't have to.

But in real life there is no OP tactic, every tactic has it's pros and cons, same with loans, it's either unrealistic for masses of PSG starlets to go to Serie C or the players themselves are overrated and the gap between the best players and the worst needs to be lower.  If it's the case that a tactic is OP then surely it should be fixed before we moderate our behaviour? or do we all just play as mid table sides buying crap players using average tactics until it's fixed? That's not fun either, it's like finding GTA V too easy and telling us to occasionally die or miss a few shots on purpose to make it a challenge.

[Defensive]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Junkhead:

If they know how to fix it now they will fix it now.

Why would it be February?

I always thought database changes would be effective only when you start a new game and that a new database would be released with the winter update early next year. Sorry if this is wrong.

[Junkhead]

59 minutes ago, SmurfDude said:

I don't even know how anyone can possibly argue the game isn't too easy, and still keep a straight face. 

In its current state you'd literally have to sabotage your own team to have any sort of challenge. There are thrashings being handed out left right and center by my team and I'm a casual player. I stopped playing the beta 3 days ago as a result. It feels a little ridiculous. 

Anyone saying you should artificially make the game more difficult by managing certain teams, or doing certain things, is only confirming that it's too easy. We should be able to play normally and still get a challenge. And rankly if we're talking about realism it should be challenging no matter who you manage, with the exception of Bayern Munich who blitz their league every season.

Managing teams like City, United, Chelsea shouldn't be easy. These teams don't win every game in real life. They don't win every trophy in real life. So those saying "manage in the bottom leagues if you want a challenge" are completely missing the point and talking nonsense. 

With all that being said, it is still only a game, and there's no need for SI to go to the other extreme and make it too difficult. I hope we don't go back to the dark days of seeing 20 1vs1's being missed by world class strikers. However something does need to be done to increase the challenge, otherwise there's zero satisfaction win winning, and it all becomes pretty boring after a couple seasons. 

So, as this is the beginning of what is becoming a circular discussion;

What is your suggested solution to this?

I have suggested to multiple users that they report anything they think is a bug or overpowered in the relevant area of the forums to help the Devs improve it. Then I've suggested other ways those users could enjoy their games. I've been told repeatedly that people should be able to play how they want. I agree. But if you feel you can't then something's got to give. 

That's not dismissive. It's not nonsense. It's life.

[Junkhead]

11 minutes ago, bluehefner said:

But in real life there is no OP tactic, every tactic has it's pros and cons, same with loans, it's either unrealistic for masses of PSG starlets to go to Serie C or the players themselves are overrated and the gap between the best players and the worst needs to be lower.  If it's the case that a tactic is OP then surely it should be fixed before we moderate our behaviour? or do we all just play as mid table sides buying crap players using average tactics until it's fixed? That's not fun either, it's like finding GTA V too easy and telling us to occasionally die or miss a few shots on purpose to make it a challenge.

Yep. I've been saying repeatedly that issues should be fixed and people who encounter them should post in the relevant area of the forum. 

And in the meantime either carry on or moderate what they do. What other option is there? 

[RandomGuy.]

6 minutes ago, bluehefner said:

But in real life there is no OP tactic

There's your issue in a nutshell.

Football Manager is a game, and is restricted almost entirely by that simple, basic, fact.

There is zero way they can ever replicate real life managers, there's not a single game in existence that has human level thought process AI.

There will always be a weakness in the game due to this. If they sort out one problem, then another will appear as a consequence, thats why every game spends the entire span of relevancy releasing patches.

Some issues people are moaning about will be resolved for the full release. Some won't. At the end of the day its a game, and anyone who expects a game to realistically reflect real life is setting themselves up for disappointment from the start.

[Junkhead]

11 minutes ago, Defensive said:

I always thought database changes would be effective only when you start a new game and that a new database would be released with the winter update early next year. Sorry if this is wrong.

Oh ok, gotchya - nah, something so game breaking would be patched sooner I would have thought if proven.

[bluehefner]

2 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Yep. I've been saying repeatedly that issues should be fixed and people who encounter them should post in the relevant area of the forum. 

And in the meantime either carry on or moderate what they do. What other option is there? 

The guess the option is to not buy the game rather than forcing yourself to experience it the way you don't want to experience it.

[Pasonen]

Simulation should be hard. Opinion. Out

[Apaco]

My main issue is that it seems that your tactics is a lot more important than the ability of your players. 

With a certain tactic (not any cheat, but high pressing, wide play etc) you can almost take any average top 5 league team to CL-title in a few years. Typical Hoffenheim, Sassuolo, Newcastle etc.

To me it seems like the quality of the players is far from being as important as the tactic. Being a football manager myself (Im actually in this game) I can say that the quality of the players is by far the most important single factor in this game.

Its of course more complex than that, but in the end, over a long season - very very often the team with the best players of quality wins the league. That means than when people wins the league and the CL with average teams there is something with the balance in this game that is wrong. 

I have read threads from previous years showing that most teams have more or less the same percentage of succesful passes (dont know how it is in this version)....meaning that almost all teams regardless of the passing stats of the players had within 5% of the same rate of succesful passes. There are few very dominant teams when it comes to possesion and teams like Bayern, Barcelona, City, PSG are not as dominant when it comes to the way they play in real life. While in real life the best team dominates the others, you can in FM just press high and throw in a lot of crosses (fm 20) and win with almost any team against almost any opposition. In real life a couple of solid centrebacks would easily defend against such a way of playing, thats why almost no teams among the top 50 in the world play that way.

Good players does make far to many big mistakes. Long straight balls over the defence, critical personal mistakes etc. It happens just as often players in Serie A then it does in Norwegian league. But if you watch a game from each league, you will se a big difference.

 

So, to put it short: The quality of your players should play a much wider part in how your team performs and the effect of tactics should be downgraded in a way. Bayern would beat Nurnberg almost regardless of instructions from both teams, just due to the difference in quality of the teams.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Apaco

[Mars_Blackmon]

30 minutes ago, Defensive said:

So what does that mean? The problem can only be solved when the database is corrected sometime in the future and we start a new save game with new database in february or something?

Idk. It’s most likely due to how the AI managers were rated. Hopefully that’s fix soon but either way we will have to restart a new save I believe.

 

Also there is apparently a bug where the AI gives the wrong shouts during the game damaging its morale...

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, SmurfDude said:

I don't even know how anyone can possibly argue the game isn't too easy, and still keep a straight face. 

The argument would be that FM21 isn't even out yet.

You're playing a version set up so people can test every part of it and find bugs.

Ever considered that, you know, finding issues is the entire point of the beta being released to the public?

[FlorianAlbert9]

13 minuti fa, Apaco ha scritto:

My main issue is that it seems that your tactics is a lot more important than the ability of your players. 

With a certain tactic (not any cheat, but high pressing, wide play etc) you can almost take any average top 5 league team to CL-title in a few years. Typical Hoffenheim, Sassuolo, Newcastle etc.

To me it seems like the quality of the players is far from being as important as the tactic. Being a football manager myself (Im actually in this game) I can say that the quality of the players is by far the most important single factor in this game.

Its of course more complex than that, but in the end, over a long season - very very often the team with the best players of quality wins the league. That means than when people wins the league and the CL with average teams there is something with the balance in this game that is wrong. 

I have read threads from previous years showing that most teams have more or less the same percentage of succesful passes (dont know how it is in this version)....meaning that almost all teams regardless of the passing stats of the players had within 5% of the same rate of succesful passes. There are few very dominant teams when it comes to possesion and teams like Bayern, Barcelona, City, PSG are not as dominant when it comes to the way they play in real life. While in real life the best team dominates the others, you can in FM just press high and throw in a lot of crosses (fm 20) and win with almost any team against almost any opposition. In real life a couple of solid centrebacks would easily defend against such a way of playing, thats why almost no teams among the top 50 in the world play that way.

Good players does make far to many big mistakes. Long straight balls over the defence, critical personal mistakes etc. It happens just as often players in Serie A then it does in Norwegian league. But if you watch a game from each league, you will se a big difference.

 

So, to put it short: The quality of your players should play a much wider part in how your team performs and the effect of tactics should be downgraded in a way. Bayern would beat Nurnberg almost regardless of instructions from both teams, just due to the difference in quality of the teams.

I agree a lot. 

I said a thousand of time that, ok, it's a game so a thing like Mourinho's Porto could happen more often than in real life. 

But more often than real is not always. 

It's right to win PL with a team like Leicester, but It should be quite impossible to win in row with a non top-class team. 

Cause of you just need to find players that fit into tactics to win, then it so easy find such type of players among 1000players list than among 5players list. 

 

 

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

Oh ok, gotchya - nah, something so game breaking would be patched sooner I would have thought if proven.

There is usually a deadline date for any database changes before the full game comes out so I doubt it. Unless this was already a know issue.

 

well just have to use the editor...

[Defensive]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Mars_Blackmon:

Idk. It’s most likely due to how the AI managers were rated. Hopefully that’s fix soon but either way we will have to restart a new save I believe.

 

Also there is apparently a bug where the AI gives the wrong shouts during the game damaging its morale...

Btw the managers of Spezia and Fiorentina have actually good attributes in this database. So i doubt that this is really the reason.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Defensive

[Mars_Blackmon]

17 minutes ago, Defensive said:

Btw the managers of Spezia and Fiorentina have actually good attributes in this database. So i doubt that this is really the reason.

Maybe, he did mention that he’s looking further into it. But there was a file last year that overrated managers in the game to make them behave better. Maybe it’s a case of attributes not being high enough. That points to an even bigger problem IMO. But it’s all speculation.

[Defensive]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb Mars_Blackmon:

Maybe, he did mention that he’s looking further into it. But there was a file last year that overrated managers in the game to make them behave better. Maybe it’s a case of attributes not being high enough. That points to an even bigger problem IMO. But it’s all speculation.

Furthermore that thread in the bug section is just about the passive AI.

I saw some streams in which the AI actually wasnt passive but left way too much space behind and lost 5-1 by counters. So im afraid the problem maybe is not caused by only one thing. Anyway i still hope for the release version.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Defensive

[Mars_Blackmon]

18 minutes ago, Defensive said:

Furthermore that thread in the bug section is just about the passive AI.

I saw some streams in which the AI actually wasnt passive but left way too much space behind and lost 5-1 by counters. So im afraid the problem maybe is not caused by only one thing. Anyway i still hope for the release version.

Yea it’s multiple things. Like AI destroying their morale during the match, playing people out of position, selecting a weak team and etc. all have been reported already.

 

 

[Nahuelzn]

2 hours ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

I agree a lot. 

I said a thousand of time that, ok, it's a game so a thing like Mourinho's Porto could happen more often than in real life. 

But more often than real is not always. 

It's right to win PL with a team like Leicester, but It should be quite impossible to win in row with a non top-class team. 

Cause of you just need to find players that fit into tactics to win, then it so easy find such type of players among 1000players list than among 5players list. 

 

 

Maybe the issue is that any team with a decent scout system can get 6 or 7 wonderkids for cheap that does make the difference. You end up with a team full of young players winning the UCL and your league. Not real at all. And what I find most troubling is that supposes that you actually do in real life this*. The next season your team should be ravaged by the big teams, so you have to build the squad again. That doesn't happen. Keeping a squad from season to season it's not that hard, you might lose one or two important players but that's it and you have plenty of time to think of a backup for that. It's different if you lose most of your great players.

 

* I think there's actually one real life example: Red Bull Salzburg (and take out of the equation the whole Red Bull franchise, just focus on this team). In FM, with RBS you should be able to win the UCL with their model (buying lots of wonderkids for peanuts from africa, south america and eastern europe, develop them and sell them in 2 or 3 years). In real life, RBZ it's at most a decent team for the group phase. And they produced players like Sadio Mané and Haaland, But those players find their best potential in better teams. And not every player they buy it's a wonderkid (the ratio here in FM I think it's also high, but you can modify that tweaking the youth levels for the countries at least).

[Bruce Drundrige]

To those wanting the AI to get smarter...be very careful about what you wish for. If you think this thread is full of misplaced anguish about it being too easy (and nobody is forcing you to buy it) wait until the AI gets smart and nobody wins a game ever again! 

 

 

[RioImmagina]

30 minuti fa, Bruce Drundrige ha scritto:

To those wanting the AI to get smarter...be very careful about what you wish for. If you think this thread is full of misplaced anguish about it being too easy (and nobody is forcing you to buy it) wait until the AI gets smart and nobody wins a game ever again! 

 

 

OMG, are you telling me that i have to push effort in order to win in a game? 

[RioImmagina]

Question to the people that have already downloaded the game. Is AI better?

[jackritchie7]

is there any changes been made to beta with the full game release out now? 

[Junkhead]

Anyone won the league yet?

Edited November 23, 2020 by Junkhead

[xray1324]

 

2 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Anyone won the league yet?

 

Liverpool 3 times in a row (AI) in my save lol

[Junkhead]

5 minutes ago, xray1324 said:

 

 

Liverpool 3 times in a row (AI) in my save lol

In all seriousness it is nice to celebrate the game having a bit of a joke 👍

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb Junkhead:

In all seriousness it is nice to celebrate the game having a bit of a joke 👍

have we been serious somewhere?

[Bruce Drundrige]

1 hour ago, RioImmagina said:

OMG, are you telling me that i have to push effort in order to win in a game? 

Yes

[Mars_Blackmon]

Since the full game is out, I feel like this thread should be closed and the other one should be reopened. 

[FrazT]

Since the full game has now been released, this thread will be closed.