AI Difficulty - Analysis and Discussion

[Lexis]

Hello all,

 

So one of the issues that's been frequently raised over the years is the difficulty of the game and how it's too easy or rather becomes too easy at a certain point, especially for experienced managers.

In order to get the difficulty to a realist level, I think one of the first things to be done is have an actual look at what experienced human managers do to gain the edge and then clarify how many of these the AI does itself? Granted the AI is obviously not human, but we should expect an AI manager with high CA to be able to do all of this stuff. For instance, I would expect someone with very high motivating, man management, working with youngsters and Judging Player Potential be a fantastic long term squad builder.

1. Squad Building

Experienced human managers generally will:

- Ensure they have each position covered (usually 2 players per position at least).

- Ensure they have enough talent to cover positions where there are aging players.

- Improves morale via player talks and team meetings.

- Ensures mentoring groups to effectively develop players.

- Trains players (individual training and PPM) to tailor to a certain style.

- Some even go the lengths of transferring young talent to their U19 / B Team to have a constant feed of youth potential in the first team.

- Recruit best coaches for each categories and ensure high training stars and low workload per each training category.

- Recruit best scouts to ensure accurate reports.

 

2. Match Player Selection

- In terms of selecting players for the match, one outstanding issue in the past versions (unsure if this is an issue now), would fail to rotate players and later in the seasons they would just play with very poor stamina, contributing to loss of form / bad results.

- Added to that, experienced human managers will at times try to exploit certain weakness in the opposing team selection first by way of their own player selection then by way of tactics. If I for instance am up against a team that has no first team full back available on the right side, and their player of choice is immensely slow, if I had two wingers (one with decent speed one with great speed), I would opt for putting the one with great speed on that side in order to exploit the slow fullback and then I would opt tactically to concentrate play on that side. I am unsure if the AI is able to do this type of analysis and play pick.

 

3. Tactics

- Probably the biggest item by far is tinkering around with tactics. Given that there's really a finite number of potential tactics and permutations of roles / instructions, I think AI managers should have the POSSIBILITY of arriving to tactics that possibly exploit the meta the same way that a player does. Granted, he has to have some sort of inclination to that style of play, but should still be possible. It is also unclear whether AI managers use player instructions and opposition instructions at all?

- Mentality has been an issue in the past iterations, with a lot of teams (even ones with good reputation) deciding to go overly defensive. I have not noticed it in this year's beta.

- How much tinkering is an AI able to do? As a human manager, If I can't get a player to perform (especially one that is considered important for the team), I tend to tinker around with his and the team instructions to find something that will help him perform as well. Is the AI capable of doing such adjustments when key players aren't performing?

 

4. Transfer Market Activity

- For past editions, I've generally not had a problem in outsmarting the AI and ensuring I made sound transfers that would guarantee me the title for years. I think the biggest question here is what is the AI able to account for when making a transfer? Can he account for scouted potential, personality, rating, reputation, etc to find the next star? I will mention that I saw solid transfers after one year in my save.

 

5. Pre-match / Half time / Full time pep talks

A huge advantage we get is being able to quickly find out which of the pep talks usually work best (it tends to be "Pick up where you left off" / "I have faith in you" / "Prove the media right" and be able to mostly reuse that to gain positive effects on the players morale.

How does the AI do the pep talks? Do we have any insight into this?

 

I think this encompasses a lot of activities that a human manager does to gain the edge and outperform the AI in the long term.

If you can think of more, feel free to comment and add below. This is supposed to raise a discussion, involving both the community and SI, to find ways to improve the AI, without artifically raising difficulty like other games or handicapping the player.

@Neil Brockcan you potentially aid us with an answer on which of the above actions can the AI do as well?Thanks.

[CARRERA]

The question is: Do you really want it to be that realistic?

I Mean isnt FM about picking up a team and lead it sooner or later to european glory? A minor Nation to a Worldcup title? Isnt FM exactly about being able to live a dream abouth things that would properbly never happen in real world? Whats the chance of a lower league team to even raise to top league within 10 years? properbly 0 withouth having an investor spending millions to bring up the club.

So in realitiy what happens if you have good player or well talented players at your academy is: you will loose them to more potent clubs in higher leagues. Same happens for Staff Members. Do you really want all your staff and good players to be picked up each season?

Also as per now FM gives your the creative freedom to set up your own scenario. For example why dont you just hire staff and players accordingly to your reputation / prediction?

Still i agree there could be a "hard mode" where AI aggressiveness on your players / staff is way higher. also tactical complexity has properbly to be tuned down as AI cant really handle tactical possibilities around roles duties and instructions.

 

[Lexis]

22 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

The question is: Do you really want it to be that realistic?

I Mean isnt FM about picking up a team and lead it sooner or later to european glory? A minor Nation to a Worldcup title? Isnt FM exactly about being able to live a dream abouth things that would properbly never happen in real world? Whats the chance of a lower league team to even raise to top league within 10 years? properbly 0 withouth having an investor spending millions to bring up the club.

So in realitiy what happens if you have good player or well talented players at your academy is: you will loose them to more potent clubs in higher leagues. Same happens for Staff Members. Do you really want all your staff and good players to be picked up each season?

Also as per now FM gives your the creative freedom to set up your own scenario. For example why dont you just hire staff and players accordingly to your reputation / prediction?

Still i agree there could be a "hard mode" where AI aggressiveness on your players / staff is way higher. also tactical complexity has properbly to be tuned down as AI cant really handle tactical possibilities around roles duties and instructions.

 

I think FM is meant to be a simulation, so the short answer would be yes.

Yes, I want managers with a high CA (think Guardiola, Klopp, etc) to use the features to their full extent in building a squad and being as strong as possible. That doesn't mean they will win everything year after year or not, but it surely means that they will mount a good challenge year after year.

You can prevent your players from being taken away with strong contracts. Then, you can negociate your transfer price to make sure it's worth loosing the player. That already happens to some degree in the game and it sure does in real life.

FM already limits you in hiring staff and players according to your reputation that is okay. 

I'm not asking for a hard mode, I'm asking for realism and for the AI to use the complete feature set we have at our disposal and to make sure that really top AI managers use it as effective or close to a human player, all in the limits of the game, no artificial boosting.

If you want a certainty that you ll reach european glory, less based on merits you can probably opt for FM classic that will abstract a lot of difficulty out of the game.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Lexis

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

The question is: Do you really want it to be that realistic?

I Mean isnt FM about picking up a team and lead it sooner or later to european glory? A minor Nation to a Worldcup title? Isnt FM exactly about being able to live a dream abouth things that would properbly never happen in real world? Whats the chance of a lower league team to even raise to top league within 10 years? properbly 0 withouth having an investor spending millions to bring up the club.

So in realitiy what happens if you have good player or well talented players at your academy is: you will loose them to more potent clubs in higher leagues. Same happens for Staff Members. Do you really want all your staff and good players to be picked up each season?

Also as per now FM gives your the creative freedom to set up your own scenario. For example why dont you just hire staff and players accordingly to your reputation / prediction?

Still i agree there could be a "hard mode" where AI aggressiveness on your players / staff is way higher. also tactical complexity has properbly to be tuned down as AI cant really handle tactical possibilities around roles duties and instructions.

 

That's what the game turn into because of what the game lack which is mentioned on the OP.

 

I think FM is meant to be a simulation. Otherwise Miles wouldn't be relaying that message every year. i mean it's that very reason that there isn't % for condition anymore...

[janrzm]

As a Wednesday supporter I'd gotten used to seeing the AI outperform reality......

[zyfon5]

9 hours ago, Lexis said:

Hello all,

 

So one of the issues that's been frequently raised over the years is the difficulty of the game and how it's too easy or rather becomes too easy at a certain point, especially for experienced managers.

In order to get the difficulty to a realist level, I think one of the first things to be done is have an actual look at what experienced human managers do to gain the edge and then clarify how many of these the AI does itself? Granted the AI is obviously not human, but we should expect an AI manager with high CA to be able to do all of this stuff. For instance, I would expect someone with very high motivating, man management, working with youngsters and Judging Player Potential be a fantastic long term squad builder.

1. Squad Building

Experienced human managers generally will:

- Ensure they have each position covered (usually 2 players per position at least).

- Ensure they have enough talent to cover positions where there are aging players.

- Improves morale via player talks and team meetings.

- Ensures mentoring groups to effectively develop players.

- Trains players (individual training and PPM) to tailor to a certain style.

- Some even go the lengths of transferring young talent to their U19 / B Team to have a constant feed of youth potential in the first team.

- Recruit best coaches for each categories and ensure high training stars and low workload per each training category.

- Recruit best scouts to ensure accurate reports.

 

2. Match Player Selection

- In terms of selecting players for the match, one outstanding issue in the past versions (unsure if this is an issue now), would fail to rotate players and later in the seasons they would just play with very poor stamina, contributing to loss of form / bad results.

- Added to that, experienced human managers will at times try to exploit certain weakness in the opposing team selection first by way of their own player selection then by way of tactics. If I for instance am up against a team that has no first team full back available on the right side, and their player of choice is immensely slow, if I had two wingers (one with decent speed one with great speed), I would opt for putting the one with great speed on that side in order to exploit the slow fullback and then I would opt tactically to concentrate play on that side. I am unsure if the AI is able to do this type of analysis and play pick.

 

3. Tactics

- Probably the biggest item by far is tinkering around with tactics. Given that there's really a finite number of potential tactics and permutations of roles / instructions, I think AI managers should have the POSSIBILITY of arriving to tactics that possibly exploit the meta the same way that a player does. Granted, he has to have some sort of inclination to that style of play, but should still be possible. It is also unclear whether AI managers use player instructions and opposition instructions at all?

- Mentality has been an issue in the past iterations, with a lot of teams (even ones with good reputation) deciding to go overly defensive. I have not noticed it in this year's beta.

- How much tinkering is an AI able to do? As a human manager, If I can't get a player to perform (especially one that is considered important for the team), I tend to tinker around with his and the team instructions to find something that will help him perform as well. Is the AI capable of doing such adjustments when key players aren't performing?

 

4. Transfer Market Activity

- For past editions, I've generally not had a problem in outsmarting the AI and ensuring I made sound transfers that would guarantee me the title for years. I think the biggest question here is what is the AI able to account for when making a transfer? Can he account for scouted potential, personality, rating, reputation, etc to find the next star? I will mention that I saw solid transfers after one year in my save.

 

5. Pre-match / Half time / Full time pep talks

A huge advantage we get is being able to quickly find out which of the pep talks usually work best (it tends to be "Pick up where you left off" / "I have faith in you" / "Prove the media right" and be able to mostly reuse that to gain positive effects on the players morale.

How does the AI do the pep talks? Do we have any insight into this?

 

I think this encompasses a lot of activities that a human manager does to gain the edge and outperform the AI in the long term.

If you can think of more, feel free to comment and add below. This is supposed to raise a discussion, involving both the community and SI, to find ways to improve the AI, without artifically raising difficulty like other games or handicapping the player.

@Neil Brockcan you potentially aid us with an answer on which of the above actions can the AI do as well?Thanks.

1. I can ensure you squad building is not the biggest problem with the AI. I can ignore all of these things and still outperform the AI. The AI can have the best scouting and coaching team in the league and yet still underperform. A good backroom team does not win your titles, a good player does. If you cannot utilize your backroom team to find you good players, your backroom team is useless. The important thing is to teach the AI how to use their staff. The AI are decent at bringing enough cover for their players sometimes even a bit too much. In fact, the first thing I do every time I manage a new team is to clear the deadwood. The AI more often than not buys too many players.

2. Rotation is a big issue with the AI so I can agree on that. I am not sure teaching the AI how to counter tactics is going to help them if their tactic is trash in the first place.

3. AI can use opposition instructions from what I observe. If your assistant can do opposition instructions then I am sure the AI can do it as well. AI after FM20 tinkers quite a lot in match sometimes even better than human. Just glance through the number of posts that claims simming through matches is easier to win than playing in full detail. I am not sure if mentality is that big of a deal for big teams like Man City, Liverpool et al. They are already playing at higher mentality most of the time and yet still underperform occasionally. My title winning team is the 4th highest scorer in the league and not the most attacking team from stats analysis and despite only predicted to finish 7th managed to win the title. In fact I am playing more defensive than the AI only conceded 17 goals in the whole season.

4. Transfer is a tricky question in my opinion. I managed a Leicester side that finished 10th last season and turned them into league Champions by playing pretty much the same squad the AI had (both seasons expected finish is 7th) and playing the same 4231 formation they used last season. The only player I brought in is a new starting striker and I sold their star winger and replaced him with a younger and worse winger. That is the only changes I made and the end result could not have been much different. The real problem is not that the AI is bringing in bad players but underutilizing players they have and I am not sure the AI has developed far enough to address this problem. 

5. Pep talks has minimal effect. I have delegated pep talks to assistant and there is barely any noticeable difference.

Currently there is really only one core issue with the AI and that is utilizing the players they have to maximum effect. Improving this will require improvements in a few aspects of AI management in the game. 

1. Better tactics especially managers that plays a 'more defensive' tactic. The default tactics for catenaccio and park the bus is poorly designed. The best default tactic in the game is vertical tiki taka. AI managers that has this style tends to do well from my observation.

2. There needs to be a transfer logic tied to the tactics used by the AI manager. Too often I see some AI manager that has route one as their playing style and do not have a target man in their team. Or the AI buys a good winger for 60M and just let him rot at the bench. If I have the same player he will be a star player in my team.

3. Better scouting intelligence by the AI to look beyond star ability and rely more on stats, attributes, personality and playing style. Currently in my save two of the best defenders in the league is not even four stars and plays for mid table teams in the Premier league. The AI will not be able to realize this if they do not look at their stats. Meanwhile I am able to grab them for cheap myself and improve my team immensely.

Edited November 21, 2020 by zyfon5

[Overmars]

I think the biggest difference is that human managers tend to value money properly, whereas AI managers waste money and miss a lot of obvious opportunities. Examples:

• Expiring Contracts: Human managers transfer list or re-sign their players before they lose them to free transfers
• Loan Market: Human managers loan all of the best players available for loan, while AI managers don't seem to realize loans are possible
• Value Buys: Human managers buy undervalued players, while AI managers love buying players at their peak price point
• Sensible Contracts: Human managers use contract clauses and frugal offers to keep their wage bill acceptable, while AI managers seem to be pushovers in negotiations
• Logical Squad Building: Human managers won't keep dead wood in the squad, while AI managers fail to sell extra players, leave them unregistered, depreciate their value, and then lose them for next to nothing

The greatest way a new human manager can improve a team is often just getting their finances sorted out and putting an end to the waste.

[KOSGS1]

In these later editions, as more and more features are added, there are now many ways the human manager can gain an edge over all its AI competitors. I feel for the last 3 or 4 editions of the game, I will almost certainly win the league/get promoted in my second season (If not first season) regardless of who I am managing. Managing outside the big 5 leagues, I feel like the top clubs in the division are rarely as dominant as they are IRL and will drop many points to teams home and away (teams that we can crush). By the start of the second season, these top teams have sold most of their best players for less than a human manager would and replace them with substandard players, thus making a run of successive titles for human manager easier and easier. 

When managing in the premier league with a lower/mid table club, I feel like AI clubs don’t extract enough money out of prem clubs negotiating transfer fees. IRL European clubs know they can charge top buck for their players, so although English clubs have lots of money their budget doesn’t go as far. On top of this, all English players are very highly valued meaning a second season transfer budget of £40m can quickly be turned into £80m with which a team of relative superstars can be assembled. 
 

more and more, human managers are having to impose restrictions on their careers in order to make the game at a more ‘realistic’ difficulty. I personally have always loved CM & FM for the grind. The challenge in progressing a club, the pain of relegation or the agony of a play off semi final defeat. When I was younger I’d at my friends Fifa careers where they had assembled a dream team with Southampton and won the league after 2 seasons. I’d implore them to play FM for a realistic simulation of football. These days feels like there’s not much difference between the two...

[Junkhead]

I often wonder if part of the reason for seemingly weird AI decisions is down to the sacking mechanism. I genuinely do not know if the AI is treated harsher than the human player is for not meeting expectations.

IRL, the average time a manager is in their role in the EFL is what, a year? 18 months? Do AI managers therefore care less about the clubs finances, youth, long term squad building because their main aim is to remain in the role and get instant success?

Do clubs with established directors of football see less wastage as time goes on because there is more consistency?

Of course this would go hand in hand with general game difficulty and might go a way towards proving what people say about the game being generally too easy. I don't win leagues every five minutes, but I rarely get sacked either and I am certainly not very good at the game.

[Wavelberry]

7 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Currently there is really only one core issue with the AI and that is utilizing the players they have to maximum effect. Improving this will require improvements in a few aspects of AI management in the game. 

1. Better tactics especially managers that plays a 'more defensive' tactic. The default tactics for catenaccio and park the bus is poorly designed. The best default tactic in the game is vertical tiki taka. AI managers that has this style tends to do well from my observation.

2. There needs to be a transfer logic tied to the tactics used by the AI manager. Too often I see some AI manager that has route one as their playing style and do not have a target man in their team. Or the AI buys a good winger for 60M and just let him rot at the bench. If I have the same player he will be a star player in my team.

3. Better scouting intelligence by the AI to look beyond star ability and rely more on stats, attributes, personality and playing style. Currently in my save two of the best defenders in the league is not even four stars and plays for mid table teams in the Premier league. The AI will not be able to realize this if they do not look at their stats. Meanwhile I am able to grab them for cheap myself and improve my team immensely.

These are legacy issues that have been abound for a while but are definitely tied to the AI not doing as well.

How many times have I seen really good young players just let go and hoovered them up? Since CM4 when I started playing the game.

The tactical one is really important because the AI signings tend to be tied to reputation and the ability numbers they end up not being the right ones for the team. Am not sure I've seen a new manager come in either with a completely different tactical outlook and change the club because of it over 2 years. The transfer logic of the AI has long been a mystery. I've lost count of the amount of journeyman saves I've done where the squad I've inherited has been an illogical mess.

[Lexis]

7 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

1. I can ensure you squad building is not the biggest problem with the AI. I can ignore all of these things and still outperform the AI. The AI can have the best scouting and coaching team in the league and yet still underperform. A good backroom team does not win your titles, a good player does. If you cannot utilize your backroom team to find you good players, your backroom team is useless. The important thing is to teach the AI how to use their staff. The AI are decent at bringing enough cover for their players sometimes even a bit too much. In fact, the first thing I do every time I manage a new team is to clear the deadwood. The AI more often than not buys too many players.

2. Rotation is a big issue with the AI so I can agree on that. I am not sure teaching the AI how to counter tactics is going to help them if their tactic is trash in the first place.

3. AI can use opposition instructions from what I observe. If your assistant can do opposition instructions then I am sure the AI can do it as well. AI after FM20 tinkers quite a lot in match sometimes even better than human. Just glance through the number of posts that claims simming through matches is easier to win than playing in full detail. I am not sure if mentality is that big of a deal for big teams like Man City, Liverpool et al. They are already playing at higher mentality most of the time and yet still underperform occasionally. My title winning team is the 4th highest scorer in the league and not the most attacking team from stats analysis and despite only predicted to finish 7th managed to win the title. In fact I am playing more defensive than the AI only conceded 17 goals in the whole season.

4. Transfer is a tricky question in my opinion. I managed a Leicester side that finished 10th last season and turned them into league Champions by playing pretty much the same squad the AI had (both seasons expected finish is 7th) and playing the same 4231 formation they used last season. The only player I brought in is a new starting striker and I sold their star winger and replaced him with a younger and worse winger. That is the only changes I made and the end result could not have been much different. The real problem is not that the AI is bringing in bad players but underutilizing players they have and I am not sure the AI has developed far enough to address this problem. 

5. Pep talks has minimal effect. I have delegated pep talks to assistant and there is barely any noticeable difference.

Currently there is really only one core issue with the AI and that is utilizing the players they have to maximum effect. Improving this will require improvements in a few aspects of AI management in the game. 

1. Better tactics especially managers that plays a 'more defensive' tactic. The default tactics for catenaccio and park the bus is poorly designed. The best default tactic in the game is vertical tiki taka. AI managers that has this style tends to do well from my observation.

2. There needs to be a transfer logic tied to the tactics used by the AI manager. Too often I see some AI manager that has route one as their playing style and do not have a target man in their team. Or the AI buys a good winger for 60M and just let him rot at the bench. If I have the same player he will be a star player in my team.

3. Better scouting intelligence by the AI to look beyond star ability and rely more on stats, attributes, personality and playing style. Currently in my save two of the best defenders in the league is not even four stars and plays for mid table teams in the Premier league. The AI will not be able to realize this if they do not look at their stats. Meanwhile I am able to grab them for cheap myself and improve my team immensely.

Good input. I don't know what to say about pep talks, I always go for the full greens, I never tested what happens if I go full red on the players.

Default tactics is an interesting subject. Does the AI have a set of default tactics they adhere to and can't go beyond that tactical constraint? Eg let's say there s a coach with 4-2-3-1 preferred formation and gegenpressing style. He gets a default tactic with some player roles and he cannot go beyond those player roles / instructions?

Given the amount of possible permutations it certainly would seem like a big limiting factor.

I was really hoping SI would engage with us in this discussion as well to help clarify stuff.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Lexis

[Wavelberry]

12 minutes ago, Lexis said:

Good input. I don't know what to say about pep talks, I always go for the full greens, I never tested what happens if I go full red on the players.

Default tactics is an interesting subject. Does the AI have a set of default tactics they adhere to and can't go beyond that tactical constraint? Eg let's say there s a coach with 4-2-3-1 preferred formation and gegenpressing style. He gets a default tactic with some player roles and he cannot go beyond those player roles / instructions?

Given the amount of possible permutations it certainly would seem like a big limiting factor.

I was really hoping SI would engage with us in this discussion as well to help clarify stuff.

TBF they're probably a wee bit busy atm with the game coming out on Tuesday. Give it time though. Brocky will probs swing by or someone else will at some point.

[kingking]

I've been complaining about this for years, I'm glad people are now figuring it out

[kingking]

I've reported countless bugs about how A.I poorly manages their staff, team tactics, squad rotation, squad cohesion etc for years.

The A.I is just not good enough and this makes the game unrealistic and not immersive.

The game is too complex for the A.I. There are too many systems such as team cohesion/happiness, loans, squad rotation, staff management etc that the A.I fails to do well.

Edited November 21, 2020 by kingking

[Dagenham_Dave]

20 hours ago, Lexis said:

If you want a certainty that you ll reach european glory, less based on merits you can probably opt for FM classic that will abstract a lot of difficulty out of the game.

Ugh, this old chestnut. Classic mode is NOT easier. If anything, it's more difficult due to the lack of interactions, team talks and other artificial ways to boost the morale of the players, whilst having the exact same tactical options and match engine. I wish people wouldn't look down their nose at this, it's extremely ignorant. 

[kingking]

We need a hard difficulty mode.

Where A.I gets a head start and automatically increases

• Team cohesion 
• Player morale
• Tactical familiarity
• Don't get affected by complaints and promises
• Staff number & quality
• Don't get affected by squad rotation and the difficulties in maintaining fitness, morale & playing time 
• Are more tactically attacking & aggressive
• Get higher transfer & wage budget
• Higher club finance balance

etc and so on.

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by kingking

[Dagenham_Dave]

3 minutes ago, kingking said:

We need a hard difficulty mode.

Where A.I gets a head start and automatically increases

• team cohesion
• player morale
• Staff number & quality
•  don't get affected by squad rotation and the difficulties in maintaining fitness, morale & playing time 
• are more tactically attacking & aggressive
• Get higher transfer & wage budget
• Higher club finance balance

etc

The only workable idea from all of that is making the AI more tactically aggressive, but you don't need a 'hard mode' for that, it's just how it should be. 

Everything else is just artificial, and probably too time consuming to code. Considering the game doesn't recognise who the AI is compared to the human manager. Imagine the man hours that would need to go into that? And for what? So the 5% of the player base who constantly overachieve get a slightly harder challenge? Doesn't make sound business sense to me.

[kingking]

4 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The only workable idea from all of that is making the AI more tactically aggressive, but you don't need a 'hard mode' for that, it's just how it should be. 

Everything else is just artificial, and probably too time consuming to code. Considering the game doesn't recognise who the AI is compared to the human manager. Imagine the man hours that would need to go into that? And for what? So the 5% of the player base who constantly overachieve get a slightly harder challenge? Doesn't make sound business sense to me.

It's interesting to find out it would be very time consuming to code a "hard mode" where A.I gets an advantage over the human being. 

If that's the case i wonder how this situation can be solved or what the devs will do in the future if people continue to complain.

Edited November 21, 2020 by kingking

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, kingking said:

It's interesting to find out it would be very time consuming to code a "hard mode" where A.I gets an advantage over the human being. 

Because you're effectively having to make two versions of the same game. It takes them enough of their time to be able to produce the current one to the standard that it is. 

[kingking]

5 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The only workable idea from all of that is making the AI more tactically aggressive, but you don't need a 'hard mode' for that, it's just how it should be. 

Everything else is just artificial, and probably too time consuming to code. Considering the game doesn't recognise who the AI is compared to the human manager. Imagine the man hours that would need to go into that? And for what? So the 5% of the player base who constantly overachieve get a slightly harder challenge? Doesn't make sound business sense to me.

I think the 5% will increase over time and people will report more bugs relating to the game difficulty this year.

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, kingking said:

If that's the case i wonder how this situation can be solved or what the devs will do in the future if people continue to complain.

Probably nothing, as it's only really a vocal minority on here. 

As much as FM tries to be a simulation, it's also got to be balanced so everyone can enjoy it. If you're in the position where you're extremely good at the game, then if you want a challenge, there's a mountain of tools at your disposal to do this. It's not an arcade game you can just put difficulty levels into, just doesn't work like that. 

[kingking]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Probably nothing, as it's only really a vocal minority on here. 

As much as FM tries to be a simulation, it's also got to be balanced so everyone can enjoy it. If you're in the position where you're extremely good at the game, then if you want a challenge, there's a mountain of tools at your disposal to do this. It's not an arcade game you can just put difficulty levels into, just doesn't work like that. 

Now that I think of it you're right

It's very hard to be the weakest team and win trophies as it should and being a top team should be easier as it should. That's the correct balance.

I guess I'm lying to myself if I choose a team like Liverpool FC and expect everything to be very hard, because as Liverpool i should be expected top win trophies.

I sympathise for the devs in maintaining balance in a complex game and to keep everyone satisfied.

I now take back everything i said about the difficulty issue lol

[HUNT3R]

5 hours ago, Lexis said:

Good input. I don't know what to say about pep talks, I always go for the full greens, I never tested what happens if I go full red on the players.

This common knowledge (or it should be) that 'green' not necessarily the 'best' option. The 'green' indicates an increase in morale, so might carry confidence with it and it could lead to a loss of focus. All of this is visible when checking the previous match team talk feedback.

[kingking]

After long thought I change my mind, we definitely need a hard mode. 

A game like civ 6 which is a simulation has a difficulty modes, so can FM. Such as A.I not being affected by unhappiness, and they play Attacking football more often etc.

It will be hard and exhausting for the devs to code but trust me, it will result in more positive feedback by the fans.

the reason for the hard mode is that it's unfair for the A.I as humans have an advantage over it in a long season career game as we have better recruitment, squad planning and dynamics management than A.I.

we need to understand that to make it fair we need to give A.I an advantage by giving them a hard mode.

A.I needs to compete with humans, that is why civ 6 has a difficulty Mode

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by kingking

[Junkhead]

12 minutes ago, kingking said:

After long thought I change my mind, we definitely need a hard mode. 

A game like civ 6 which is a simulation has a difficulty modes, so can FM. Such as A.I not being affected by unhappiness, and they play Attacking football more often etc.

It will be hard and exhausting for the devs to code but trust me, it will result in more positive feedback by the fans.

the reason for the hard mode is that it's unfair for the A.I as humans have an advantage over it in a long season career game as we have better recruitment, squad planning and dynamics management than A.I.

we need to understand that to make it fair we need to give A.I an advantage by giving them a hard mode.

A.I needs to compete with humans, that is why civ 6 has a difficulty Mode

 

We don't need the AI to have advantages over the human like not being affected by unhappiness.  We need them to have the SAME advantages a human player has.

If you are playing in the EPL, then the AI is on a level playing field for 36 of it's 38 matches, and at a disadvantage in the other 2.

However the player is at an advantage in 38 out of 38 games.  That advantage transfers itself to results, and this is why people feel the game is easy.

Giving the AI advantages the player doesn't have should not be the focus.

[kingking]

10 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

We don't need the AI to have advantages over the human like not being affected by unhappiness.  We need them to have the SAME advantages a human player has.

If you are playing in the EPL, then the AI is on a level playing field for 36 of it's 38 matches, and at a disadvantage in the other 2.

However the player is at an advantage in 38 out of 38 games.  That advantage transfers itself to results, and this is why people feel the game is easy.

Giving the AI advantages the player doesn't have should not be the focus.

I agree with you it should not be the focus, this game is a simulation of real football and everyone should have equal rules.

However since some people feel the game is easy due to having an advantage in transfers (which you stated) because humans are better planners then the A.I.

 the effort and hard work in making a difficulty mode with (easy, medium & hard) will be worth it to receive more positive feedback

and yeah this game is still enjoyable without a difficulty mode but i feel like it can take it to another level with more options for the user.

 

 

[Junkhead]

Just now, kingking said:

I agree with you it should not be the focus, this game is a simulation of real football and everyone should have equal rules.

However since some people feel the game is easy due to having an advantage in transfers (which you stated) because humans are better planners then the A.I.

 the effort and hard work in making a difficulty mode with (easy, medium & hard) will be worth it to receive more positive feedback

and yeah this game is still enjoyable without a difficulty mode but i feel like it can take it to another level with more options for the user.

 

 

So instead of improving the AI logic to bring it as close to that of the player, you suggest that we skip that & just give the AI advantages which the human would never have, such as squad unhappiness not affecting them at all?

Feels a bit like the easy way out to me, but each to their own.

[kingking]

6 hours ago, Junkhead said:

So instead of improving the AI logic to bring it as close to that of the player, you suggest that we skip that & just give the AI advantages which the human would never have, such as squad unhappiness not affecting them at all?

Feels a bit like the easy way out to me, but each to their own.

In the future as technology advances then you are right, we should skip difficulty modes because A.I Logic will be very much improved.

Maybe we should give the devs more time because each year the A.I improves, therefore eventually in the future the A.I managers logic will be on another amazing level.

I applaud the devs for their work on the A.I logic this year, because the A.I is good but could be better.

Currently i still think there should be a difficulty mode, but each to their own as you said. we are all passionate about this amazing game created by the hard working devs. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by kingking

[Mars_Blackmon]

5 hours ago, Junkhead said:

So instead of improving the AI logic to bring it as close to that of the player, you suggest that we skip that & just give the AI advantages which the human would never have, such as squad unhappiness not affecting them at all?

Feels a bit like the easy way out to me, but each to their own.

I think AI improvement should be the focus. I don’t think a game like this should have artificial boosts to the AI to help them. It’s like turning “FM’d” mode on lol.

But if it came down to difficulty settings, I’ll be ok with them affecting or handicapping the human. Like having an option to increase injuries, fatigue, and harder to manage morale.

 

But overall, it should be about fixing AI and gameplay that should naturally make the game more challenging.

[KloppRodgersHodgson]

6 hours ago, kingking said:

In the future as technology advantages then you are right, we should skip difficulty modes because A.I Logic will be very much improved.

Maybe we should give the devs more time because each year the A.I improves, therefore eventually in the future the A.I managers logic will be on another amazing level.

I applaud the devs for their work on the A.I logic this year, because the A.I is good but could be better.

Currently i still think there should be a difficulty mode, but each to their own as you said. we are all passionate about this amazing game created by the hard working devs. 

I agree on difficulty levels because:

 - Improving the AI is really difficult and FM is built to run on basic machines

 - Most players want to have a fun, easy game, so wouldn't like the game to be harder

I can definitely understand the logic against it bit I see it as the lesser of two evils, that it would allow the casual players an easier game and offer a bigger challenge for those that want it.

[kingking]

12 minutes ago, KloppRodgersHodgson said:

I agree on difficulty levels because:

 - Improving the AI is really difficult and FM is built to run on basic machines

 - Most players want to have a fun, easy game, so wouldn't like the game to be harder

I can definitely understand the logic against it bit I see it as the lesser of two evils, that it would allow the casual players an easier game and offer a bigger challenge for those that want it.

yeah some people say forget about the difficulty level and just focus on A.I, however, this is very very difficult and it will take years for A.I to be as good as humans.

The wait for A.I to be good will be long. So i think we should have a difficulty mode (easy, medium, hard) so we can satisfy everyone whilst we wait for A.I to advance and be fantastic.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by kingking

[Mars_Blackmon]

I wish there was an option to turn attribute numbers into the stars ⭐️ 

or maybe off altogether without having to find a skin that you don’t really like that does it.

[upthetoon]

The entire concept of improving the AI or to make it realistic is a huge conundrum in a game like FM.

Just think about it. you want an AI to mimic reality? It will mean you will never be able to take Plymouth to the champion league final in 10-15 years. you will never be able to beat the management and tactical skills of AI equivalent world class managers. because stuffs like this never happen in real life. a non-league club will likely remain a non-league club even after 100 years. are you willing to play the game like this?

if the AI is too good. you will never enjoy the game. as you won't be able to beat the AI. you are likely to lose and get outsmart in every game.

it's like the game of chess. where AI chess is so far ahead that humans can never beat any computer or AI.

have you thought about this?

Edited November 22, 2020 by upthetoon

[kingking]

1 minute ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

I wish there was an option to turn attribute numbers into the stars ⭐️ 

 

Let us imagine there being a mode (extreme realism mode) where it is extremely realistic where attributes are stars and we have to rely on stats and so on.

It would be very time consuming relying on stats and watching matches to determine whether a player is good or not but oh well lol

[Junkhead]

Just now, kingking said:

Let us imagine there being a mode (extreme realism mode) where it is extremely realistic where attributes are stars and we have to rely on stats and so on.

It would be very time consuming relying on stats and watching matches to determine whether a player is good or not but oh well lol

I find it all very strange in respect of which side of the argument people think they fall on here.

I play the old school LLM way. So I generally start unemployed with no badges. I don't use the player search and only sign players my scouts have found. I wouldn't go near wonderkid lists or downloading tactics. I do everything manually. It takes me weeks real time to get through a season.  I use fake players if I start again in a league I've already managed in in that version so I don't know the players. I don't go near the good player/team forum on here.  This is hard mode. 

I'm not sure someone who is smashing the league with Bayern or Celtic is as "hardcore" a player as you think.

I said this on the previous difficulty thread and got roundly flamed for it, but if people are picking the best clubs in the highest divisions, then what do they expect.

 

[Mars_Blackmon]

9 minutes ago, upthetoon said:

The entire concept of improving the AI or to make it realistic is a huge conundrum in a game like FM.

Just think about it. you want an AI to mimic reality? It will mean you will never be able to take Plymouth to the champion league final in 10-15 years. you will never be able to beat the management and tactical skills of AI equivalent world class managers. because stuffs like this never happen in real life. a non-league club will likely remain a non-league club even after 100 years. are you willing to play the game like this?

if the AI is too good. you will never enjoy the game. as you won't be able to beat the AI. you are likely to lose and get outsmart in every game.

it's like the game of chess. where AI chess is so far ahead that humans can never beat any computer or AI.

have you thought about this?

That’s an extreme example and suggests that non league teams never move up the pyramid.

realistic means not being able to complete accurate passes with a poor player that is clearly fatigued...

 

realistic is having to make effort to take that non league team to league with smart management.

 

in the current state of FM, you can move up from non league to league consecutively with a different roster each year without team cohesion mattering. Team cohesion should be very important with low quality of players.

[rp1966]

On 21/11/2020 at 14:47, Dagenham_Dave said:

Ugh, this old chestnut. Classic mode is NOT easier. If anything, it's more difficult due to the lack of interactions, team talks and other artificial ways to boost the morale of the players, whilst having the exact same tactical options and match engine. I wish people wouldn't look down their nose at this, it's extremely ignorant. 

As someone who has come back to the full-fat version for the first time in years I have to agree with this. Lots of the extra features can be leveraged to give you even more of an advantage than you already have as a human player. The level of assistance in the full-fat game now took me very much by surprise.

Probably the biggest thing that makes life harder for someone playing full-fat is squad dynamics. 

[Platinum]

5 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

I find it all very strange in respect of which side of the argument people think they fall on here.

I play the old school LLM way. So I generally start unemployed with no badges. I don't use the player search and only sign players my scouts have found. I wouldn't go near wonderkid lists or downloading tactics. I do everything manually. It takes me weeks real time to get through a season.  I use fake players if I start again in a league I've already managed in in that version so I don't know the players. I don't go near the good player/team forum on here.  This is hard mode. 

I'm not sure someone who is smashing the league with Bayern or Celtic is as "hardcore" a player as you think.

I said this on the previous difficulty thread and got roundly flamed for it, but if people are picking the best clubs in the highest divisions, then what do they expect.

 

I've been trying to play quite realistically too but find your rules quite interesting. Could you explain the rest of those rules and LLM rules that make it more realistic?

[Junkhead]

1 minute ago, francis#17 said:

I've been trying to play quite realistically too but find your rules quite interesting. Could you explain the rest of those rules and LLM rules that make it more realistic?

Will DM you mate 👍

[Junkhead]

9 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

realistic is having to make effort to take that non league team to league with smart management.

 

in the current state of FM, you can move up from non league to league consecutively with a different roster each year without team cohesion mattering.

This is this whole circular discussion that has now spilled over three threads for over a week in two paragraphs.

You're right - signing an entire new squad every single season is unrealistic.

So don't do it. There's your challenge. 

You are 100% right that the game should punish you for it. I don't know if it does or not because I don't do that. If it doesn't, then in should.

This is the sort of thing that should be fixed rather than arbitrary difficulty modes being added. 

[rp1966]

29 minutes ago, kingking said:

Let us imagine there being a mode (extreme realism mode) where it is extremely realistic where attributes are stars and we have to rely on stats and so on.

It would be very time consuming relying on stats and watching matches to determine whether a player is good or not but oh well lol

What do you mean by realism, though?

The game's version of realism is to allow the player to start at any club and, by default, to give you the qualifications that would have allowed you to get that job.  A realistic mode would restrict you to starting at a lower league club only, or as an assistant manager, or it would force you through a whole bunch of mini games to see what level of coaching badges you can start the game with and then restrict your clubs accordingly.  It would generate you a playing biography and limit you geographically.

'Realism' for a simulation game is not so clear-cut - it's a series of choices about what aspects are simulated and what are the things that are allowed to vary so that the player can simulate differing scenarios.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by rp1966

[Mars_Blackmon]

7 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

This is this whole circular discussion that has now spilled over three threads for over a week in two paragraphs.

You're right - signing an entire new squad every single season is unrealistic.

So don't do it. There's your challenge. 

You are 100% right that the game should punish you for it. I don't know if it does or not because I don't do that. If it doesn't, then in should.

This is the sort of thing that should be fixed rather than arbitrary difficulty modes being added. 

That’s not a solution because you then enable the discussion of whether some of these features are fluff or not. Why have team cohesion if it’s effects are minimal at best? Sure Liverpool should do well with little team cohesion because of the talent but in the same breath, despite Manchester United being talented, they underperform.

 

lack of team cohesion should be really felt with a roster that are not really talented (lower leagues)

[Junkhead]

9 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

That’s not a solution because you then enable the discussion of whether some of these features are fluff or not. Why have team cohesion if it’s effects are minimal at best? Sure Liverpool should do well with little team cohesion because of the talent but in the same breath, despite Manchester United being talented, they underperform.

 

lack of team cohesion should be really felt with a roster that are not really talented (lower leagues)

Right.

And as I said in my post after the bit you highlighted - the developer should make it work better. We agree.

What we don't agree on is that if I find a problem, I post it in the bugs forum and play around it rather than complaining about it on multiple threads. Not saying you are doing this by the way, but we have both been involved in the discussions across multiple threads now.

I don't like that all of my DOF recommendations in the Norwegian third division are Croatian because I have one Croatian staff member. So I'm going to post about it in the bugs forum later and sack the bloke and hire a Norwegian. If that doesn't resolve it, I will update the developer.

If you have examples of cohesion remaining high when whole squads have been replaced, post some evidence to the developer.

[Mars_Blackmon]

14 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Right.

And as I said in my post after the bit you highlighted - the developer should make it work better. We agree.

What we don't agree on is that if I find a problem, I post it in the bugs forum and play around it rather than complaining about it on multiple threads. Not saying you are doing this by the way, but we have both been involved in the discussions across multiple threads now.

I don't like that all of my DOF recommendations in the Norwegian third division are Croatian because I have one Croatian staff member. So I'm going to post about it in the bugs forum later and sack the bloke and hire a Norwegian. If that doesn't resolve it, I will update the developer.

If you have examples of cohesion remaining high when whole squads have been replaced, post some evidence to the developer.

Cohesion remaining high when it’s not suppose to isn’t the problem which would be a bug. The problem is team cohesion not having much of an effect (like injuries being 80%) which is most likely working as intended.
 

These things have been requested and posting about in the correct forums for years now.

it’s up to SI to agree on the changes or not. 

The game being easy for some isn’t just down to an overpowered tactic. It’s multiple features that can be ignored that adds on to the lack of difficulty.
 

[Junkhead]

2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Cohesion remaining high when it’s not suppose to isn’t the problem which would be a bug. The problem is team cohesion not having much of an effect (like injuries being 80%) which is most likely working as intended.
 

These things have been requested and posting about in the correct forums for years now.

it’s up to SI to agree on the changes or not. 

 

Fine, so if you don't think it's a bug, and it is ruining your enjoyment then your options are to stop playing or work around it.

I want to keep playing so I work around it by not signing 20 players on loan and free transfer every time I get promoted. 

We agree it would be better if it worked properly.

[Mars_Blackmon]

8 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Fine, so if you don't think it's a bug, and it is ruining your enjoyment then your options are to stop playing or work around it.

I want to keep playing so I work around it by not signing 20 players on loan and free transfer every time I get promoted. 

We agree it would be better if it worked properly.

And that’s what the thread is for. Hence the title.

 

just because I am now letting my DOF handle transfers doesn’t mean I don’t want this fixed and not talked about.

Probably why it hasn’t been tuned because people haven’t really talked about it other than suggestions that gain no traffic or a bug report that got ignored...

[Junkhead]

7 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

And that’s what the thread is for. Hence the title.

 

just because I am now letting my DOF handle transfers doesn’t mean I don’t want this fixed and not talked about.

Probably why it hasn’t been tuned because people haven’t really talked about it other than suggestions that gain no traffic or a bug report that got ignored...

SI say all bug reports are looked at, I assume that is the case. It is frustrating when there is no comment on your report and you can't actually see it's been looked at, I get that. 

It does feel like we're on the same side in the end mate, I have form for being too direct which i'm sure comes as no surprise lol

[Mars_Blackmon]

4 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

SI say all bug reports are looked at, I assume that is the case. It is frustrating when there is no comment on your report and you can't actually see it's been looked at, I get that. 

It does feel like we're on the same side in the end mate, I have form for being too direct which i'm sure comes as no surprise lol

Yes I know SI means well and looks at all bugs, I’ve been on the beta team in the past. But just because they acknowledge it doesn’t mean it’s high on the list of things to address.

[Boroboss]

Pretty funny reading some comments on this, AI in general needs a supercomputer of processing power to beat a human and people are surprised after 10-20 years of playing they find it too easy to outwit the AI... stop asking sigames to be a world leader in artificial intelligence so it’s a bit tougher for you to win the league in a game most of us play for fun.

[Mars_Blackmon]

23 minutes ago, Boroboss said:

Pretty funny reading some comments on this, AI in general needs a supercomputer of processing power to beat a human and people are surprised after 10-20 years of playing they find it too easy to outwit the AI... stop asking sigames to be a world leader in artificial intelligence so it’s a bit tougher for you to win the league in a game most of us play for fun.

I’ve been playing OOTP baseball for 10 years and won the World Series less than 5 times. Silly comment.