AI Difficulty - Analysis and Discussion

[Boroboss]

1 minute ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

I’ve been playing OOTP baseball for 10 years and won the World Series less than 5 times. Silly comment.

Yeah cos I’m sure hitting a ball and running round in a circle is just as hard to replicate as 22 players on a football pitch. Silly comment.

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 minutes ago, Boroboss said:

Yeah cos I’m sure hitting a ball and running round in a circle is just as hard to replicate as 22 players on a football pitch. Silly comment.

Are you saying off the pitch features doesn’t matter?

[Boroboss]

2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Are you saying off the pitch features doesn’t matter?

Of course not but you are comparing a completely different sport and game, may as well talk about manager mode on fifa. 
 

also I would expect that in football with access to players all over the world from every country it’s easier to build a competitive squad than whatever ridiculous draft system baseball uses. 

[KloppRodgersHodgson]

1 hour ago, Boroboss said:

Pretty funny reading some comments on this, AI in general needs a supercomputer of processing power to beat a human and people are surprised after 10-20 years of playing they find it too easy to outwit the AI... stop asking sigames to be a world leader in artificial intelligence so it’s a bit tougher for you to win the league in a game most of us play for fun.

Exactly. AI isn't going to fix this problem when a small company are making a game for the masses.

Difficulty levels could massively improve the situation for the better players be and would be easy to introduce.

[Daveincid]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Boroboss:

Pretty funny reading some comments on this, AI in general needs a supercomputer of processing power to beat a human and people are surprised after 10-20 years of playing they find it too easy to outwit the AI... stop asking sigames to be a world leader in artificial intelligence so it’s a bit tougher for you to win the league in a game most of us play for fun.

yes! 100% agree! I mentioned this so many times! The human player cuts back the AI already when you select your db before you played a single minute...

[Mars_Blackmon]

Fixing loop holes and mechanics in the game is not exactly asking for world class AI. Another attempt to change the narrative lol. Good job.

[Boroboss]

3 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Fixing loop holes and mechanics in the game is not exactly asking for world class AI. Another attempt to change the narrative lol. Good job.

You know it’s possible to download an editor? Here’s an idea if the standard game is too easy pick 3 of your biggest rivals, give them a wonder kid in every position, 250 million transfer budget and top stats for the manager, add new favoured formations anything you like. I didn’t change any narrative just simply pointed out logically that AI in general is not at the level to get anywhere near a human and you started waffling on about baseball and I’m still not sure what your point was.

[Mars_Blackmon]

6 minutes ago, Boroboss said:

You know it’s possible to download an editor? Here’s an idea if the standard game is too easy pick 3 of your biggest rivals, give them a wonder kid in every position, 250 million transfer budget and top stats for the manager, add new favoured formations anything you like. I didn’t change any narrative just simply pointed out logically that AI in general is not at the level to get anywhere near a human and you started waffling on about baseball and I’m still not sure what your point was.

The point is you don’t need world class AI for a game to be challenging smh.

 

Why should anyone had to go thru unrealistic obstacles just for a challenge?

 

if you like pointless features that doesn’t add to the strategy of the game and loop holes to let you win and have fun, then just say that. 

[Boroboss]

Oh so you want realistic? You want to take over Blackburn and maybe one season get a sniff of the premier league? Give over mate it’s a game, bet you’re a right laugh aren’t ya.

I think if sports interactive just increase the wage budget, hire 2 world class coders in every position, forget a football simulation I reckon they can build a terminator in 10 years...

 

They make a game for the majority not the minority and yes things aren’t perfect and I put that down to technology available not the effort of the people who make the game. Are you always so entitled? 

[kingking]

8 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

The point is you don’t need world class AI for a game to be challenging smh.

 

Why should anyone had to go thru unrealistic obstacles just for a challenge?

 

if you like pointless features that doesn’t add to the strategy of the game and loop holes to let you win and have fun, then just say that. 

Are people trolling

All we are asking for is a difficulty Mode

It really isn't controversial.

It's a standard in many games especially simulations.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by kingking

[Boroboss]

Again I’ll point out that once you have put hundreds or thousands of hours into anything it’s likely to be less and less of a challenge you don’t seem to understand this basic fact 

[Rashidi]

Everyone take a chill pill and relax, please try and accept each other's points of view instead of treating it like a personal offence.

[Boroboss]

11 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

The point is you don’t need world class AI for a game to be challenging smh.

 

Why should anyone had to go thru unrealistic obstacles just for a challenge?

 

if you like pointless features that doesn’t add to the strategy of the game and loop holes to let you win and have fun, then just say that. 

Over the course of a year I’ll play multiple different games and yeah toward the end I’ll download the editor and make things a bit harder for me. Rather than go on a forum and moan I like to use the tools available to me to change a few things. Sorry if that doesn’t fit in with your gospel of how the game should be played

[Junkhead]

20 minutes ago, kingking said:

Are people trolling

All we are asking for is a difficulty Mode

It really isn't controversial.

It's a standard in many games especially simulations.

 

People aren't trolling. This has been being discussed on the forums for over a week and not once has anyone suggested how this would work aside from suggesting that the AI is given arbitrary boosts which will never happen, or that the AI be improved which should happen generally regardless of difficulty levels.

 

[Junkhead]

15 minutes ago, Boroboss said:

Over the course of a year I’ll play multiple different games and yeah toward the end I’ll download the editor and make things a bit harder for me. Rather than go on a forum and moan I like to use the tools available to me to change a few things. Sorry if that doesn’t fit in with your gospel of how the game should be played

This. Play different saves & find your own challenges.

If the AI can be improved this should be applied to the game, not added as a difficulty level.

[vukigepard]

31 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

The point is you don’t need world class AI for a game to be challenging smh.

 

In a game where AI and player are in the same world, with same resources, without any AI "cheating" as they are treated equally, you do need world class AI for it to compete. Do you know a single game where a player that has played 15 years of particular game isn't better than the AI on "normal" difficulty?  No matter the programing, the AI can't learn to analyse and combine the information in a way the players do. Not even the state of the art modern AI's.

So maybe difficulty levels are solution to this too easy/too hard problem, but i somehow doubt that SI will do it

[JordanMilly]

46 minutes ago, kingking said:

Are people trolling

All we are asking for is a difficulty Mode

It really isn't controversial.

It's a standard in many games especially simulations.

 

And SI have said, repeatedly, they have zero intention of including different difficulty modes. They want everyone to be playing with the same AI.

So really, it's time to stop just asking over and over for a difficulty mode that'll never come, and instead time to figure out which issues does the AI have that the player is able to game, and how do you get rid of those issues to reduce the ability for the player to game the system, and make the AI better for everyone, whilst also allowing a player manager to raise a team up the leagues in a shorter period than 20+ seasons?

[Boroboss]

9 minutes ago, vukigepard said:

In a game where AI and player are in the same world, with same resources, without any AI "cheating" as they are treated equally, you do need world class AI for it to compete. Do you know a single game where a player that has played 15 years of particular game isn't better than the AI on "normal" difficulty?  No matter the programing, the AI can't learn to analyse and combine the information in a way the players do. Not even the state of the art modern AI's.

So maybe difficulty levels are solution to this too easy/too hard problem, but i somehow doubt that SI will do it

Maybe they don’t do it because they release the best possible AI they can each year and any difficulty modes would result in easier modes being available and this being the hardest one (without being overly unrealistic) so they offer attribute hiding, fake player names, no first window and an in game editor as way to create your own levels of difficulty. If you still smash every save congratulations you’re amazing at the game and if you can’t find a new way to enjoy it that’s tough but it happens.

I just find it weird that people think that they don’t do the best job possible with all the resources they have available. 

[Lexis]

Couple of things on my mind:

1. I don't think we'll ever see difficulty modes and they would not make sense to begin with. I think SI stated this themselves so why don't we just cross this off the list?

2. What this thread asks for (and I imagine a lot of us) is give the AI the capability to use the exact same tools and depth of usage that a player has. This does NOT necessarly always have to increase difficulty. Given they are tools, they can also be used in a wrong way. An AI manager with bad Motivating would still suck at motivating his team through pep talks and interaction, but he has the tool at his disposal. Yes, fantastic managers will probably use a lot of these tools in an efficient and positive way more often than not which might make some of the top managers harder to beat. But you are not increasing the difficulty artificially, you are only leveling the playing field between AI and Human. Hence why I started an analysis to see what exactly can an human manager do and where the AI is lacking.

3. Yes, there is more than enough computing power to achieve this, whoever claims otherwise has no clue what he is talking about.

4. Handicapping yourself (by not doing X and Y) is not the answer. The AI needs to be better. If you want to handicap yourself, sure go ahead, but that is a separate thing and should be treated as such. I am not referring here to not exploiting serious game bugs, obviously that should be avoided.

[vukigepard]

1 minute ago, Boroboss said:

Maybe they don’t do it because they release the best possible AI they can each year and any difficulty modes would result in easier modes being available and this being the hardest one (without being overly unrealistic) so they offer attribute hiding, fake player names, no first window and an in game editor as way to create your own levels of difficulty. If you still smash every save congratulations you’re amazing at the game and if you can’t find a new way to enjoy it that’s tough but it happens.

I just find it weird that people think that they don’t do the best job possible with all the resources they have available. 

Agreed. I know they can't create the perfect simulation, and have to balance a lot of things, not to make possibilities too narrow, to make sure not every approach works great, but to be able to overachieve, underachieve, to appeal to the casual gamers, to the hyper realism players, to the middle ground, to worry about numbers of goals, from which position, stats to be in the line of expected, to make representation of it on the pitch, and much more. Very hard to do, especially because everything is connected to everything else.

Regardless, i'll find a way to enjoy this fanastic work any way i can.

[Mars_Blackmon]

15 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

And SI have said, repeatedly, they have zero intention of including different difficulty modes. They want everyone to be playing with the same AI.

So really, it's time to stop just asking over and over for a difficulty mode that'll never come, and instead time to figure out which issues does the AI have that the player is able to game, and how do you get rid of those issues to reduce the ability for the player to game the system, and make the AI better for everyone, whilst also allowing a player manager to raise a team up the leagues in a shorter period than 20+ seasons?

Apparently asking for this is asking for terminator lol 

[Lexis]

Also, because it was brought earlier. Let's imagine a world where a supercomputer and super AI is developed for the NPC managers in FM. And they would be able to use every single feature in the game with a very high degree of efficiency. Let's also assume that the supercomputer is a master tactician and would know the insides of most tactics and how to counter them.

Even in this scenario, that computer will likely be beaten in 10-20% simply due to the fact that, like us, the manager simply will try to maximize the chances of winning his team has, but the playing itself and the carrying out of those tactics will be done by the players.

[Junkhead]

All that these threads over the last few days have told us is that people want a better AI.

There's an insane idea that those who disagree with difficulty levels are "casual" players who want an "easy" game.

We all want the AI improved. It's just that some users what that to be called hard mode and for some sort of normal made that just stays where we are now. It's bizarre frankly.

[Freakiie]

SI doesn't want to code the game in a way that differs between the AI and the user, so from that perspective difficulty levels are already highly unlikely.

However, even if you had difficulty levels somehow, do you really think it'd make a difference? At its core the AI would still be largely the same, which means that the user will still have massive advantages over it in a lot of areas. On top of that, as pointed out, the majority of the matches are AI vs AI and in a lot of cases those are the matches where they throw it away. In the end, the people that currently can massively over perform with a relatively weak squad will still be able to do so. At worst, they'll just need an additional season to get their wonderkids up a notch, which ironically is the counterpoint the people arguing difficulty levels are making towards starting at a smaller club.

In the end, people that are really good at the game they're playing will always set up seemingly ridiculous challenges to keep the game difficult for them, because at some point you will simply outgrow any difficulty it can throw at you. The same would happen with difficulty levels in FM. Especially when you suggest that these difficulty levels should set up the AI to play in specific manners, that's just calling for people to find the best way to play against that manner. At which point this argument would start again, with people saying that "this tactic is OP against difficult AI!" and then people going "well don't use that tactic?" to which the response would be "I don't wanna!".

So, instead of discussing difficulty levels which will a) arguably never happen and b) hardly fix all that much, discuss options that would be realistic within the constraints that SI has set. You might not agree with these constraints, but arguing changes that SI is against will not get you anywhere.

[Boroboss]

So in the end it really just comes down to needing a smarter AI, my point is it really isn’t that simple to just come up with an algorithm or software capable of replicating human decision making although I’d love to be educated by the people who think it’s easy!

[Boroboss]

48 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Apparently asking for this is asking for terminator lol 

That’s how it starts one moment you have a football simulator that can replicate human decision making before you know it skynet is sending terminators with regen faces back in time 

[Rashidi]

So here's a suggestion:

The human is always having an advantage over the AI because the human is generally more creative. Let's identify some ways.

1. Does the AI use match preparation the way the human does? I know I use it like some super bonus cookie and will swallow the maximum number I can. So why is the AI not doing the same? Shouldn't it? Whenever the AI manages my training it does appear that it fails to do that, forcing me to add them myself. So it follows that if the BEST tactical manager i can find as assistant manager doesn't do it, then perhaps the AI is also failing to take advantage. It's a possibility.

2. This could be more a research issue than anything else. Some AI formations are particularly imaginative, but not too many. The AI manager seems to have a few preset tactics that it seems to go over, and these are dependant on the manager attributes. Perhaps managers should have a bit more versatility in their options.  This would mean someone taking a deeper look at how the formations are chosen.  I know some of the AI teams I have played against have stunned me with their versatility. To be fair we can't really expect every team to play like that, but choosing to go attacking with 10 minutes to go after being 2 nil down for 80 mins doesn't sound right,  Perhaps the AI should have better options, like:
 

- Human manager draws yellow cards down one flank, AI focus play to that flank, just one example. There are other options too. These tactical options could be embedded into a playlist of sorts.

This brings me back to how we used to play FMLive. I now have a system of play that evolves how I combine various team instructions for different periods in a match, much like how we used to play FMLive.

An example:

Start of the game, the AI could start Balanced, short passing, narrow width, normal/quick tempo, This is done to keep possession of the ball while trying to suss things out. Then if it needs to open up, it goes to a different set of instructions, but these are done, not based on time or score, but based on things like whether its controlling midfield or losing the battles at certain areas of the pitch. 

A lot of this depends on internal research from SI and how accurate  they want different systems to be. I know I liked Bielsa's Leeds this year, and I also know who researched that team, it was versatile and good. 

Frankly speaking, as humans we are super creative. The very best players have one tactic with a few plans ready to go. They can do different kinds of things with their one tactic, but the AI manager plays off a template of tactics. Perhaps it's time to revisit how the AI manager adapts during the game.  At the moment the game feels too much "painting by numbers", get the right players with the right attributes and chances are you are going to win most of the time. I remember talking about this a few years ago. The AI manager needs to be more adaptable, it has to be able to spot weaknesses in your system and exploit them intentionally.

Doing this though has its downsides, the game is meant to be a simulation of human behaviour. And this is the hardest to incorporate into the game. Take for example, Salah gets a new bumper contract...chances are he is going to have a dip in performance for his next few games before it goes back up again. This is common for footballers, but how do you code this kind of behaviour - the random human element. 

We can make the AI play like deep blue, but we also need to be able to mimic human predictability and sometimes human stupidity. I do hope that over time this happens. It's a fine line to walk, and I for one disagree on difficulty levels. It's never happening and SI have been very clear on that. 

[Lexis]

11 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

So here's a suggestion:

The human is always having an advantage over the AI because the human is generally more creative. Let's identify some ways.

1. Does the AI use match preparation the way the human does? I know I use it like some super bonus cookie and will swallow the maximum number I can. So why is the AI not doing the same? Shouldn't it? Whenever the AI manages my training it does appear that it fails to do that, forcing me to add them myself. So it follows that if the BEST tactical manager i can find as assistant manager doesn't do it, then perhaps the AI is also failing to take advantage. It's a possibility.

2. This could be more a research issue than anything else. Some AI formations are particularly imaginative, but not too many. The AI manager seems to have a few preset tactics that it seems to go over, and these are dependant on the manager attributes. Perhaps managers should have a bit more versatility in their options.  This would mean someone taking a deeper look at how the formations are chosen.  I know some of the AI teams I have played against have stunned me with their versatility. To be fair we can't really expect every team to play like that, but choosing to go attacking with 10 minutes to go after being 2 nil down for 80 mins doesn't sound right,  Perhaps the AI should have better options, like:
 

- Human manager draws yellow cards down one flank, AI focus play to that flank, just one example. There are other options too. These tactical options could be embedded into a playlist of sorts.

This brings me back to how we used to play FMLive. I now have a system of play that evolves how I combine various team instructions for different periods in a match, much like how we used to play FMLive.

An example:

Start of the game, the AI could start Balanced, short passing, narrow width, normal/quick tempo, This is done to keep possession of the ball while trying to suss things out. Then if it needs to open up, it goes to a different set of instructions, but these are done, not based on time or score, but based on things like whether its controlling midfield or losing the battles at certain areas of the pitch. 

A lot of this depends on internal research from SI and how accurate  they want different systems to be. I know I liked Bielsa's Leeds this year, and I also know who researched that team, it was versatile and good. 

Frankly speaking, as humans we are super creative. The very best players have one tactic with a few plans ready to go. They can do different kinds of things with their one tactic, but the AI manager plays off a template of tactics. Perhaps it's time to revisit how the AI manager adapts during the game.  At the moment the game feels too much "painting by numbers", get the right players with the right attributes and chances are you are going to win most of the time. I remember talking about this a few years ago. The AI manager needs to be more adaptable, it has to be able to spot weaknesses in your system and exploit them intentionally.

Doing this though has its downsides, the game is meant to be a simulation of human behaviour. And this is the hardest to incorporate into the game. Take for example, Salah gets a new bumper contract...chances are he is going to have a dip in performance for his next few games before it goes back up again. This is common for footballers, but how do you code this kind of behaviour - the random human element. 

We can make the AI play like deep blue, but we also need to be able to mimic human predictability and sometimes human stupidity. I do hope that over time this happens. It's a fine line to walk, and I for one disagree on difficulty levels. It's never happening and SI have been very clear on that. 

Totally in agreement. That's also what I wanted to point out. That while we give the AI access to more tools, they should be prone to misusing them just as much as we are.

[Nahuelzn]

I would love to know if the AI "knows" if it plays against me or against another AI team. I assume that the big drawback it has its that the AI is literally running 50000 teams at the same time. That's why squad building it's such a hard thing to do, as the AI would need to be rethinking all the time when a player leaves the club or if a player that it's going to sign for a club goes to another. The same could be applied to match engine. Although there is a level of detail for simulation, maybe the AI having to go deep in all the matches we are full simulating in a day it's too much for it to handle (specially since FM wants to be on the lower side of the pc requirements).

However, some things could be tuned if the AI knows we re on the opposite side to make more smarter decisions in that particular match.

[Junkhead]

1 minute ago, Nahuelzn said:

I would love to know if the AI "knows" if it plays against me or against another AI team. I assume that the big drawback it has its that the AI is literally running 50000 teams at the same time. That's why squad building it's such a hard thing to do, as the AI would need to be rethinking all the time when a player leaves the club or if a player that it's going to sign for a club goes to another. The same could be applied to match engine. Although there is a level of detail for simulation, maybe the AI having to go deep in all the matches we are full simulating in a day it's too much for it to handle (specially since FM wants to be on the lower side of the pc requirements).

However, some things could be tuned if the AI knows we re on the opposite side to make more smarter decisions in that particular match.

It doesn't, as per SI.

[penza]

I made a hard mode - created a large number of OP players (200 ca/pa) put them in the top 10 teams of each nation, with a 30 year contract and moving to a club after 30 years so they are never unhappy. If you Put 2-3 per squad you will see how hard it gets!

Edited November 22, 2020 by penza

[kingking]

People do not understand the point of a difficulty level period.

Honestly the A.I is not effective in Long term careers. They cannot manage and rotate a squad and maintain happiness, squad cohesion, player dynamics, good staff numbers and quality etc compared with humans

In a 40 year career A.I are weak

Thats the point in making the game easier for them with a difficulty level.

Let's just focus on long term careers and the A.Is ability to maintain a squad during a long period of time compared with humans when discussing this please

Edited November 23, 2020 by kingking

[Junkhead]

4 hours ago, kingking said:

People do not understand the point of a difficulty level period.

Honestly the A.I is not effective in Long term careers. They cannot manage and rotate a squad and maintain happiness, squad cohesion, player dynamics, good staff numbers and quality etc compared with humans

In a 40 year career A.I are weak

Thats the point in making the game easier for them with a difficulty level.

Let's just focus on long term careers and the A.Is ability to maintain a squad during a long period of time compared with humans when discussing this please

We do understand the point of a difficulty level.

We just think it's a stupid idea to give the AI arbitrary buffs and increases on a game that is supposed to be a simulation. IRL when Real Madrid won three champions leagues on the spin, did their opponents start being allowed to take performance enhancing drugs? No. What happened was that opposition managers found ways to defeat them.

The AI needs to be improved so that the 40 year careers you're talking about are more competitive whilst the game retains it's simulation elements.

People who don't agree with you are not stupid and lack understanding of what you're on about.

Since we're going down that route, the developer have said MULTIPLE times on this forum and social media that difficulty levels will never happen. I've a feeling that it's you that isn't understanding that it will never happen, no matter how much you want it to or keep this conversation going.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Junkhead

[kingking]

9 hours ago, Junkhead said:

We do understand the point of a difficulty level.

We just think it's a stupid idea to give the AI arbitrary buffs and increases on a game that is supposed to be a simulation. IRL when Real Madrid won three champions leagues on the spin, did their opponents start being allowed to take performance enhancing drugs? No. What happened was that opposition managers found ways to defeat them.

The AI needs to be improved so that the 40 year careers you're talking about are more competitive whilst the game retains it's simulation elements.

People who don't agree with you are not stupid and lack understanding of what you're on about.

Since we're going down that route, the developer have said MULTIPLE times on this forum and social media that difficulty levels will never happen. I've a feeling that it's you that isn't understanding that it will never happen, no matter how much you want it to or keep this conversation going.

Then lets hope that the devs are aware of the A.I limitations and prioritise on making A.I amazing

the devs are doing an amazing job in FM but i would love a new Headline feature for FM22 as "Revamped A.I System" 

Hopefully the devs change their minds about the difficulty mode in future FMs 

But i agree with you Difficulty levels in football manager doesn't sound realistic but unfortatunly the A.I needs still improving 

Edited November 23, 2020 by kingking

[HUNT3R]

We don't need 2 of the same threads. The OP may have started off on a different level, but GD has blended it all into 1.