Strikers choking in big games

[MrYelsrennik]

My strikers (Salah and Mane both on poacher) are missing easy chances in big matches.

I've attached two videos as an example. Before you say "strikers miss chances, it happens", I had about four or five of these chances in the first half of this game alone and didn't score any and it happens every big game, not just one big game.

This is a common theme for Mane and Salah in big matches for me. 

Against smaller teams they are lethal and scoring for fun. I don't have any extra player instructions on them than the ones assigned by their poacher roles. 

Is there a reason why they score more in smaller games than bigger games and can I effect it? They get the same similar chances, if not easier in big games but their conversion rate is so poor. 

I've tried attacking movement and chance conversion training before matches. Salah has "places shots" ppm, Mane doesn't, but they place shots v smaller teams but rush and lose their composure despite high composure and finishing attributes, in big matches.)

Is there a way I can get them to be more composed and finish off these easy chances in big games please? 

Tactic screenshots are lower down in the replies.

Let me know if you have any questions. My friend suggested to use shouts to encourage them when they miss which Ill try but seems a long shot. 

I've thought about taking off be more expressive in big matches? Don't know if that will have an impact. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by MrYelsrennik

[Experienced Defender]

2 minutes ago, MrYelsrennik said:

I've attached two videos as an example

You should have attached a screenshot of your tactic instead. Only the tactic as a whole can provide us with a proper context to be able to offer some useful advice. Otherwise, we can only speculate, which is always misleading. 

 

6 minutes ago, MrYelsrennik said:

My strikers (Salah and Mane both on poacher)

Wait a minute... your tactic involves 2 poachers playing alongside each other or you play both Salah and Mane in the poacher role but not at the same time? 

[MrYelsrennik]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

You should have attached a screenshot of your tactic instead. Only the tactic as a whole can provide us with a proper context to be able to offer some useful advice. Otherwise, we can only speculate, which is always misleading. 

 

Wait a minute... your tactic involves 2 poachers playing alongside each other or you play both Salah and Mane in the poacher role but not at the same time? 

I'll try get a screenshot when I can but im open to any speculative guesses you have in the meantime.

I play three strikers: Mane left forward Poacher, Origi false 9 in the centre and Salah right forward Poacher.

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, MrYelsrennik said:

I play three strikers: Mane left forward Poacher, Origi false 9 in the centre and Salah right forward Poacher

Okay, with an F9 between them, it makes sense (unlike 2 lone poachers). However, I still need to see the tactic as a whole. Because tactical elements are very much interrelated and none works in isolation. While your striker combo (PO-F9-PO) looks okay in and of itself, it still needs to be compatible with the rest of your tactic.

Now... if they really miss those CCCs only in big matches, then the problem might not be (entirely) tactical but perhaps associated with something else, at least in part (e.g. pep talks, press conferences and stuff like that). 

[MrYelsrennik]

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, with an F9 between them, it makes sense (unlike 2 lone poachers). However, I still need to see the tactic as a whole. Because tactical elements are very much interrelated and none works in isolation. While your striker combo (PO-F9-PO) looks okay in and of itself, it still needs to be compatible with the rest of your tactic.

Now... if they really miss those CCCs only in big matches, then the problem might not be (entirely) tactical but perhaps associated with something else, at least in part (e.g. pep talks, press conferences and stuff like that). 

Ok thank you, leading up to the game I said "I'm always confident, we looked good in training" and "I'd never pin all my hopes on a single player" in the press conference and said to my players something like "we've been on a good run of form show me what you can do"

Should I say to my forwards, "the pressure is off" or something?

Attached my tactic screenshots

 

[MrYelsrennik]

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, with an F9 between them, it makes sense (unlike 2 lone poachers). However, I still need to see the tactic as a whole. Because tactical elements are very much interrelated and none works in isolation. While your striker combo (PO-F9-PO) looks okay in and of itself, it still needs to be compatible with the rest of your tactic.

Now... if they really miss those CCCs only in big matches, then the problem might not be (entirely) tactical but perhaps associated with something else, at least in part (e.g. pep talks, press conferences and stuff like that). 

 

[Sarmatian]

FM20 or FM21 beta?

I don't know the situation in FM21, but in FM20, I'd say it is simply a match engine issue and not something you can do much about. Defensive positioning, marking, covering is atrocious, so in compensation strikers will miss easy chances much more often then they should.

Places shots PPM can help mitigate the situation a bit, but only a bit. Don't expect wonders. Rounding goalkeepers can help a bit more in my experience, but it is only effective when strikers are through on goal, with no defender pressure. If it is just shots it won't do much.

Also, you can take screenshots in steam by pressing F12 and in Epic games by pressing ALT+S.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Sarmatian

[Mr. Buttons]

I agree with Sarmatian's comment above. I had the same frustration when I first started playing FM20 and I thought my strikers were broken. They were missing 1on1s regularly against weaker goalkeepers, missing clear cut chances, headers, etc. Then all of a sudden I'll score a goal out of a nonsense deflection, free kick or corner.

Basically it's just the FM20 engine compensating for the lack of solid defending so it forces your players to miss those easy chances. It's very frustrating because when you see those chances you're all proud of your tactic only to see your strikers miss all the chances you created. Afterwards, it's very confusing what to tweak next because it's total nonsense to see so many chances created with such little conversion rate.

Edit: Typo.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Mr. Buttons

[MrYelsrennik]

1 hour ago, Sarmatian said:

FM20 or FM21 beta?

I don't know the situation in FM21, but in FM20, I'd say it is simply a match engine issue and not something you can do much about. Defensive positioning, marking, covering is atrocious, so in compensation strikers will miss easy chances much more often then they should.

Places shots PPM can help mitigate the situation a bit, but only a bit. Don't expect wonders. Rounding goalkeepers can help a bit more in my experience, but it is only effective when strikers are through on goal, with no defender pressure. If it is just shots it won't do much.

Also, you can take screenshots in steam by pressing F12 and in Epic games by pressing ALT+S.

Ok thank you, it is the FM21 Beta

[MrYelsrennik]

1 hour ago, Mr. Buttons said:

I agree with Sarmatian's comment above. I had the same frustration when I first started playing FM20 and I thought my strikers were broken. They were missing 1on1s regularly against weaker goalkeepers, missing clear cut chances, headers, etc. Then all of a sudden I'll score a goal out of a nonsense deflection, free kick or corner.

Basically it's just the FM20 engine compensating for the lack of solid defending so it forces your players to miss those easy chances. It's very frustrating because when you see those chances you're all proud of your tactic only to see your strikers miss all the chances you created. Afterwards, it's very confusing what to tweak next because it's total nonsense to see so many chances created with such little conversion rate.

Edit: Typo.

Ok thanks anything wrong with my tactic for big games?

[dazza11]

4 hours ago, MrYelsrennik said:

Ok thanks anything wrong with my tactic for big games?

If I’m completely honest your front 3 looks a bit of a mess - Salah/Mane as poachers looks a bit of a waste of their talents.

A poacher is there to hang on the last defender and score goals but they are not designed to be involved in build up play etc . yes those two are quick but they are probably being under-utilised as poachers. 
Origi as a F9 also seems a poor fit. F9 is a technical role and he’s far from suited to that IMO.

Also you are using very high LOE & DL so u are effectively camping between the half way line and their box, combined with extremely urgent prob just makes the whole thing very frantic with little space for your forwards to operate in when you do win the ball back. If you really want Salah and Mane running in behind, I’d drop ur LOE at least a notch prob 2. 

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, MrYelsrennik said:

 

9 hours ago, MrYelsrennik said:

I like your setup of roles and duties 

Instructions look fine as well (except for overly aggressive defensive ones, but okay)  

 

9 hours ago, MrYelsrennik said:

Ok thank you, leading up to the game I said "I'm always confident, we looked good in training" and "I'd never pin all my hopes on a single player" in the press conference and said to my players something like "we've been on a good run of form show me what you can do"

Unfortunately, this non-tactical stuff is not really my "area of expertise", so someone with more knowledge about that aspect of the game will hopefully jump in to offer some advice  

 

9 hours ago, MrYelsrennik said:

Should I say to my forwards, "the pressure is off" or something?

I don't know, maybe. You can certainly try. Although both Mane and Salah should be mentally strong enough to cope with pressure. 

[Experienced Defender]

@Sarmatian @Mr. Buttons Please do not spread misinformation, because otherwise I'll have no choice but to start removing your comments.

Now let me explain...

First, the tactical forum is not about complaining about the ME but exclusively about tactical help and advice, regardless of what anyone may think about the ME. Every ME has its flaws and therefore no ME can ever be perfect. But most of the tactical issues people complain about are not caused by the ME. Because if something was caused by a ME flaw (as opposed to a tactical mistake), then all people who play FM would experience those same problems - simply because the ME is same for all of us who play the game. 

Also, if the OP's problem with his strikers missing one-on-one chances was a result of the ME, then it would happen to him regularly, i.e. in all kinds of matches, not only in big games. Which obviously is not the case, given what he himself wrote: 

On 21/11/2020 at 00:13, MrYelsrennik said:

Before you say "strikers miss chances, it happens", I had about four or five of these chances in the first half of this game alone and didn't score any and it happens every big game, not just one big game.

This is a common theme for Mane and Salah in big matches for me. 

Against smaller teams they are lethal and scoring for fun

Therefore, the ME cannot be responsible for the OP's strikers' missed chances (in big games only). 

As I said, there has never been a "perfect" ME without any flaw, but - I can confidently say based on many years of FM experience - that every ME ultimately rewards sensibly designed tactics. And the OP's tactic is quite decent - actually better looking than the vast majority of tactics I've been seeing in this forum  

Last but not least, just as in real-life football, the psychological pressure players feel is naturally always (proportionally) bigger in big matches than otherwise, simply because big games carry greater importance. I myself also occasionally have the same kind of problem in these big games - we play well, create great chances, but my players tend to miss more of them compared to "normal" matches. However, I have never ever even thought about blaming the ME for that, because it would make no sense at all.

I understand that it will always be more convenient for people to lay the blame on someone or something else than admitting that it could actually be due to their own mistake - simply because that's part of the human nature. But it still does not mean that they are free to spread misinformation in this forum 

P.S: Hopefully this is now sorted out so that we can continue with normal and constructive discussion 

[Sarmatian]

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

@Sarmatian @Mr. Buttons Please do not spread misinformation, because otherwise I'll have no choice but to start removing your comments.

Now let me explain...

First, the tactical forum is not about complaining about the ME but exclusively about tactical help and advice, regardless of what anyone may think about the ME. Every ME has its flaws and therefore no ME can ever be perfect. But most of the tactical issues people complain about are not caused by the ME. Because if something was caused by a ME flaw (as opposed to a tactical mistake), then all people who play FM would experience those same problems - simply because the ME is same for all of us who play the game. 

Also, if the OP's problem with his strikers missing one-on-one chances was a result of the ME, then it would happen to him regularly, i.e. in all kinds of matches, not only in big games. Which obviously is not the case, given what he himself wrote: 

Therefore, the ME cannot be responsible for the OP's strikers' missed chances (in big games only). 

As I said, there has never been a "perfect" ME without any flaw, but - I can confidently say based on many years of FM experience - that every ME ultimately rewards sensibly designed tactics. And the OP's tactic is quite decent - actually better looking than the vast majority of tactics I've been seeing in this forum  

Last but not least, just as in real-life football, the psychological pressure players feel is naturally always (proportionally) bigger in big matches than otherwise, simply because big games carry greater importance. I myself also occasionally have the same kind of problem in these big games - we play well, create great chances, but my players tend to miss more of them compared to "normal" matches. However, I have never ever even thought about blaming the ME for that, because it would make no sense at all.

I understand that it will always be more convenient for people to lay the blame on someone or something else than admitting that it could actually be due to their own mistake - simply because that's part of the human nature. But it still does not mean that they are free to spread misinformation in this forum 

P.S: Hopefully this is now sorted out so that we can continue with normal and constructive discussion 

I specifically asked him if it is FM20 or 21 beta. I shared my experience with FM20 as a way to help him. I don't know how it is in FM21. It was not a rant, nor was about blaming someone or something else for my own mistakes - it happens to me and my opponents in roughly equal measure and I have been overachieving with most teams since I got the hang of Match Engine in FM20. But, as his question is related to FM21, my response is irrelevant, since it is based on my experience in FM20.

If saying anything negative about match engine is forbidden now, I would appreciate if you said so. I was actively reading these boards (and less actively participating) for a better part of a decade - I don't remember moderators issuing warnings or being passive aggressive if someone dared to share their experience with the match engine. If you disagree with my opinion, feel free to say so. You do not even have to explain why you disagree. Simply saying that your opinion and/or experience is different will suffice, but you should do it as a member, not a moderator.

I do not see anything that violated the rules of the forum in my previous post, so I will not delete it. You can, of course, delete it if you want, That's your prerogative as a moderator. I stand by what I said.

 

[SpecialOne Miko]

Il y a 21 heures, MrYelsrennik a dit :

Ok thank you, leading up to the game I said "I'm always confident, we looked good in training" and "I'd never pin all my hopes on a single player" in the press conference and said to my players something like "we've been on a good run of form show me what you can do"

Should I say to my forwards, "the pressure is off" or something?

Attached my tactic screenshots

 

i think Mané and Salah dont have enough support. I suggest you put the two WBs on CWB/A to provide the support.

Personally, I would switch Wijnaldum and Thiago positions and roles.

[MrYelsrennik]

13 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

I like your setup of roles and duties 

Instructions look fine as well (except for overly aggressive defensive ones, but okay)  

 

Unfortunately, this non-tactical stuff is not really my "area of expertise", so someone with more knowledge about that aspect of the game will hopefully jump in to offer some advice  

 

I don't know, maybe. You can certainly try. Although both Mane and Salah should be mentally strong enough to cope with pressure. 

Thank you for the advice I appreciate it!

[MrYelsrennik]

15 hours ago, dazza11 said:

If I’m completely honest your front 3 looks a bit of a mess - Salah/Mane as poachers looks a bit of a waste of their talents.

A poacher is there to hang on the last defender and score goals but they are not designed to be involved in build up play etc . yes those two are quick but they are probably being under-utilised as poachers. 
Origi as a F9 also seems a poor fit. F9 is a technical role and he’s far from suited to that IMO.

Also you are using very high LOE & DL so u are effectively camping between the half way line and their box, combined with extremely urgent prob just makes the whole thing very frantic with little space for your forwards to operate in when you do win the ball back. If you really want Salah and Mane running in behind, I’d drop ur LOE at least a notch prob 2. 

Interesting I haven't thought about that but I will say Salah scored 35 goals in all comps for me and we won the prem and UCL with this tactic! Something isn't right about my tactic in big games it maybe my line of engagement. 

[Experienced Defender]

14 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

If saying anything negative about match engine is forbidden now, I would appreciate if you said so

It's not forbidden, but...

Specifically in this tactical forum, you can mention the ME as one of possible reasons for why something happens, but cannot mark it as the sole cause of an issue. The problem here is that your entire comment was about the ME as being responsible for the OP's issue with strikers, without offering any other potential explanation. On top of that, you stated that as a bold claim without any conclusive evidence. If something happens to you when playing the game, it does not mean that the same thing happens to everyone.

In other words, there is a notable difference between an assumption based on one's personal experience and a fact that has been proven without any doubt. I reacted to your comment simply because you tried to present an assumption as a fact. That's the whole point.

On the other hand, you - like anyone - have the right to believe that the ME is to blame for whatever, but there are more appropriate forum sections in which you can express such complaint - most notably the ME section of the Bugs forum.

In conclusion: dissatisfaction with the ME is allowed, but in this particular forum section the emphasis is on tactics and tactical advice, not on the ME and its potential flaws.  

15 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

I do not see anything that violated the rules of the forum in my previous post, so I will not delete it. You can, of course, delete it if you want, That's your prerogative as a moderator

I did not say that I will delete the comment you had already made. Instead, I warned that I will remove any further comments of that kind. And I think I clearly explained in the first part of this post what exactly was the problem with your ME-related comment and how you can mention the ME in the tactical forum in an appropriate way. Because there is a good reason why this community is separated into various sub-forums (general, tactical, bugs and others). 

[Experienced Defender]

@Sarmatian

 FINAL WARNING: After my 2 comments in which I clearly and detailedly explained what was the problem and why I am not going to allow a certain type of posts in the tactical forum - including this thread as part of it - I had no choice but to start removing any comments disobeying my instructions as a moderator. Not only because such comments do not belong to the tactical forum - which I repeatedly stresses and explained already - but also because I don't want to allow anyone to derail someone else's topic by irrelevant comments trying to stir up a pointless argument. I also clearly pointed you to the relevant forum section where you can express any dissatisfaction and/or complaint regarding the ME. 

Another such comment will lead to an official warning. 

Thank you!