known issue Youth Intake Broken Just Like Beta

[Novem9]

В 23.02.2021 в 01:46, Andrew James сказал:

in most cases this should always be at least 4+. 

Andrew, thank you for work and report 

Just to clarify, one more time please. I have inactive league, 15-20 place of UEFA rating for example. Can I expect every club of D1 will be have 4+ newgens every season or just few best clubs of D1 will be?

What about D2 in this case? Just about, I want to understand how to be with adding new leagues

Many thanks in advance!  

[Domoboy23]

Good work, but a couple of concerns on my end.

 

I was experiencing this issue on all my saves, however from my last save which started about 6 weeks ago, teams in top flights on my save were already producing 7-13 players per intake season on season. For some bizzare reason.

 

Second question, with this increase with the latest update I'm a bit concerned as to the knock on to the transfer competitiveness. 

 

I play with 14 nations loaded and 40 leagues active on a medium dB. I don't go large as I like to have a competitive transfer market (as realistic as possible) so there isn't a huge abundance of surplus players.

My concern would be bloat on the game and the transfer activity, as well as non league and lower league sides having an unrealistic amount of high quality released youth newgen players from premiership teams. Yes you get players in real life who drop down and work back up, but I feel now this number may become very skewed and up the standard quite dramatically of lower leagues. Will we see many players released from a premier side, go to a conference side and find their level and stay non league for their careers? Or a ton of premier releasees to non league to either big money moves to league clubs, or staying in the conference but upping the standard unrealistically and altering the average age to a very young level?

 

Especially as wonderkids are so easily available on FM!

[TokyoWanderer]

hace 4 horas, Domoboy23 dijo:

I play with 14 nations loaded and 40 leagues active on a medium dB. I don't go large as I like to have a competitive transfer market (as realistic as possible) so there isn't a huge abundance of surplus players.

My concern would be bloat on the game and the transfer activity, as well as non league and lower league sides having an unrealistic amount of high quality released youth newgen players from premiership teams. Yes you get players in real life who drop down and work back up, but I feel now this number may become very skewed and up the standard quite dramatically of lower leagues. Will we see many players released from a premier side, go to a conference side and find their level and stay non league for their careers? Or a ton of premier releasees to non league to either big money moves to league clubs, or staying in the conference but upping the standard unrealistically and altering the average age to a very young level?

If youth intake was fixed to reflect realistic levels and to keep the player count the same as at the start, there is no reason to think it will lead to unbalanced transfer markets. On the contrary, the lack of youth players before the fix would cause imbalances in the future by reducing the amount of players available. 

[Novem9]

В 23.02.2021 в 18:51, LeoFM сказал:

I ran a test for 10 years with the advanced database option with players from all top divisions loaded (about 90k players at the start of the game) and only one league set as playable.  After 10 seasons, the player pool had been reduced to 74k. 

Here is the comparison regarding the total number of youth players coming through intakes before and after the update. 

Year	21.2	21.3

2020	3349	4445	
2021	7982	6760
2022	4559	5167
2023	3677	2902
2024	2440	2621
2025	2205	2550
2026	2085	2758
2027	2281	2847
2028	2276	2914
2029	2240	2837

Total	33094	35801
Average	3309	3580

After 5 seasons when the numbers seem to become more balanced, it's clear to see that the 21.3 update is an improvement, with about 600 more players each year than before the update. Still not good enough though considering the massive reduction of about 16k players in the database after only 10 years, but an improvement for sure.

Nice Work!

Could you please share your opinion what do you think about South America newgens in Europe transfers in 21.3 ? Especially Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Uruguay.

As I understood, all of them were inactive in your test?

In year 2029 or later

Edited February 24, 2021 by Novem9

[michael21]

I’ve gotten back on the game after the update. Thank you to the SI team for hearing our concerns. This was a pretty big problem for multiple years. Now I am enjoying the game again! The reworked newgen system makes the game feel brand new! 
 

Just a future suggestion: I wish SI would give users access to advanced settings to customize newgen generation so that users could dictate which divisions and at what volume newgen generation happens. 
 

nonetheless, thanks SI!

[ratio1618]

1 minute ago, michael21 said:

I’ve gotten back on the game after the update. Thank you to the SI team for hearing our concerns. This was a pretty big problem for multiple years. Now I am enjoying the game again! The reworked newgen system makes the game feel brand new! 
 

Just a future suggestion: I wish SI would give users access to advanced settings to customize newgen generation so that users could dictate which divisions and at what volume newgen generation happens. 
 

nonetheless, thanks SI!

100% this. If we have the high PCs to play this on a bigger scale we should have some extra options to control the player count and newgen generation on game creation.

[LeoFM]

3 hours ago, Novem9 said:

Nice Work!

Could you please share your opinion what do you think about South America newgens in Europe transfers in 21.3 ? Especially Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Uruguay.

As I understood, all of them were inactive in your test?

In year 2029 or later

This wasn't what I was intending to research in my simulation but I can give you some information on it. 

Click to view the national squad: Argentina | Brazil | Chile | Uruguay

The best players have moved to Europe which is realistic so I think it's fine. I wasn't aware this was a problem before so I'm not sure what to think tbh.

[Novem9]

27 минут назад, LeoFM сказал:

The best players have moved to Europe which is realistic so I think it's fine. I wasn't aware this was a problem before so I'm not sure what to think tbh.

it wasn't. Or not a big problem. I just want to clarify because dont want to add SA leagues as playable

Thank you!

[gizmo11x]

is anybody doing some more serious testing with custom DBs to see how the numbers are looking?

edit: also, if managers/staff are being hired in AI controlled clubs after the first one leaves/gets fired.

Edited February 26, 2021 by gizmo11x

[jib]

44 minutes ago, gizmo11x said:

is anybody doing some more serious testing with custom DBs to see how the numbers are looking?

edit: also, if managers/staff are being hired in AI controlled clubs after the first one leaves/gets fired.

I will do some tests with custom DBs, but first I'm doing a test with just playable leagues. Andrew said the custom DBs are still likely to decrease over time so we already know that's still a problem. Hopefully, with just playable leagues this is won't be a problem anymore, which for people who like a long save is great news. It'll probably take a few days for me to report back

[Domoboy23]

In terms of customdbs, is this applying to custom db's on the old version even if it's just a case of 2 players have been edited on that db? nothing else, no leagues changed/created/nation rules etc

[ratio1618]

I think when they said Custom DBs they meant advanced Database set ups not actual fmf files.

[gizmo11x]

10 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

I think when they said Custom DBs they meant advanced Database set ups not actual fmf files.

yep...most people refer to the advanced database setups as "custom dbs"

[gizmo11x]

1 hour ago, jib said:

I will do some tests with custom DBs, but first I'm doing a test with just playable leagues. Andrew said the custom DBs are still likely to decrease over time so we already know that's still a problem. Hopefully, with just playable leagues this is won't be a problem anymore, which for people who like a long save is great news. It'll probably take a few days for me to report back

awesome, thx.
yeah I read that custom dbs are still a problem but should see improvement so would be curious to see how much

[jib]

15 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

I think when they said Custom DBs they meant advanced Database set ups not actual fmf files.

yep i meant advanced DB, not edited files

[ratio1618]

My main issue with the whole Custom DB v FMF thing is that we werent really told by @Andrew James if custom FMF editor files are included in the hardcoded minimum newgen intake update. He says "top flight clubs" but is that hardcoded by the default leagues in the game or reputation baseD?

[jib]

I've run a couple of tests and thought I'd share the results. TLDR my game with playable leagues only had increased player count and then held steady, never dipping below the starting player count. My Game with a custom database increased at first but eventually declined significantly below the starting player count.

Test 1 - playable leagues only, set up for a long term, competitive European game but still playable for those with out high end systems. Top 10 UEFA ranked countries using association club coefficients, all leagues loaded as playable, medium database size - Spain, England, Italy, Germany, France, Portugal, Russia, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria.

Test 2 - Custom database, set up to include players from all nations rated above 110 on FM youth rating score. This is the same test I ran in December (page 4) large database size

Under custom database I have these options selected for UK & Ireland, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands, Russia, Portugal, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Mexico, Egypt, Turkey, Nigeria, Japan, USA & South Korea

The options with playable leagues really does look fixed, I ran that one for 5 more years than I planned to check player count didn't drop below the original count and I'll probably run it for another 5years overnight tonight to check but it's looking good. I plan to run a couple of other tests but these will take much longer as they will have more playable leagues and also I think I'll be starting a new long term save to actually play.

Hope this helps some people decide what type of game to set up.

[Platinum]

1 hour ago, jib said:

I've run a couple of tests and thought I'd share the results. TLDR my game with playable leagues only had increased player count and then held steady, never dipping below the starting player count. My Game with a custom database increased at first but eventually declined significantly below the starting player count.

Test 1 - playable leagues only, set up for a long term, competitive European game but still playable for those with out high end systems. Top 10 UEFA ranked countries using association club coefficients, all leagues loaded as playable, medium database size - Spain, England, Italy, Germany, France, Portugal, Russia, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria.

Test 2 - Custom database, set up to include players from all nations rated above 110 on FM youth rating score. This is the same test I ran in December (page 4) large database size

Under custom database I have these options selected for UK & Ireland, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands, Russia, Portugal, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Mexico, Egypt, Turkey, Nigeria, Japan, USA & South Korea

The options with playable leagues really does look fixed, I ran that one for 5 more years than I planned to check player count didn't drop below the original count and I'll probably run it for another 5years overnight tonight to check but it's looking good. I plan to run a couple of other tests but these will take much longer as they will have more playable leagues and also I think I'll be starting a new long term save to actually play.

Hope this helps some people decide what type of game to set up.

Those custom DB numbers are good. Playable leagues are 100% fixed

[gizmo11x]

thanks @jib

do any of your tests include custom leagues (fmf files) by any chance? I guess you would use those at "playable" level anyway so it should be the same as the default playable leagues?

also, can you check if the AI clubs hire new managers/staff properly?

[TokyoWanderer]

The custom DB numbers look pretty good considering you included countries like Argentina that have an inflated number of players.

hace 3 horas, gizmo11x dijo:

also, can you check if the AI clubs hire new managers/staff properly?

This has nothing to do with the youth intake bug. Why would anything change in that regard?

Edited March 1, 2021 by TokyoWanderer

[Platinum]

2 minutes ago, TokyoWanderer said:

The custom DB numbers look pretty good considering you included countries like Argentina that have an inflated number of players.

This has nothing to do with the youth intake bug. Why would anything change in that regard. 

It's possible that was a separate improvement they made, however its probs best for a new thread so that this thread doesnt get derailed

[jib]

2 hours ago, gizmo11x said:

thanks @jib

do any of your tests include custom leagues (fmf files) by any chance? I guess you would use those at "playable" level anyway so it should be the same as the default playable leagues?
 

No custom leagues or any other changes in the editor were made for these 2 tests

[LeoFM]

Youth intakes are still broken... 

I have a save (only Swedish leagues loaded) in 2040 in FM21 and England, the nation with the best ranked league in the world at this point, received a grand total of 31 players the year 2040. With a save on FM20 with the exact same setup in terms of the player database, England got 142 in 2040. Not only that, but in FM21 the 31 players were spread across only four clubs. And in FM20, the 142 players were spread across 112 clubs! 

The way it worked in FM20 was perfect, why change it? Who wants the few players that only some nations get through intakes in FM21 to come from the same clubs every year?? That only makes long terms saves very boring in the end because the same clubs will start dominating each nation... Btw I'm obviously talking about the youth intakes from nations without a league loaded. 

The advanced setup were the same in both saves, I set it to include all players from all top divisions in the world. If I set it to that it should remain that way FOR THE WHOLE SAVE. But this is not the case in FM21, FM20 and prior editions managed to keep the numbers relatively intact at least.. But in FM21, even the top club in a semi-decent top flight such as Bosnia & Hercegovina, will not receive A SINGLE PLAYER through youth intakes after the first season. That just makes the game unrealistic and unplayable in my opinion. 

I hope this issue is still being worked on because I know a lot of FM enjoyers like the aspect of realism even in long term saves, and this issue just makes that impossible without literally loading all nations and the save running unplayably slow.

Edited May 25, 2021 by LeoFM

[blejdek]

On 25/05/2021 at 18:03, LeoFM said:

Youth intakes are still broken... 

I have a save (only Swedish leagues loaded) in 2040 in FM21 and England, the nation with the best ranked league in the world at this point, received a grand total of 31 players the year 2040. With a save on FM20 with the exact same setup in terms of the player database, England got 142 in 2040. Not only that, but in FM21 the 31 players were spread across only four clubs. And in FM20, the 142 players were spread across 112 clubs! 

The way it worked in FM20 was perfect, why change it? Who wants the few players that only some nations get through intakes in FM21 to come from the same clubs every year?? That only makes long terms saves very boring in the end because the same clubs will start dominating each nation... Btw I'm obviously talking about the youth intakes from nations without a league loaded. 

The advanced setup were the same in both saves, I set it to include all players from all top divisions in the world. If I set it to that it should remain that way FOR THE WHOLE SAVE. But this is not the case in FM21, FM20 and prior editions managed to keep the numbers relatively intact at least.. But in FM21, even the top club in a semi-decent top flight such as Bosnia & Hercegovina, will not receive A SINGLE PLAYER through youth intakes after the first season. That just makes the game unrealistic and unplayable in my opinion. 

I hope this issue is still being worked on because I know a lot of FM enjoyers like the aspect of realism even in long term saves, and this issue just makes that impossible without literally loading all nations and the save running unplayably slow.

This issue has not been worked on since latest big patch (march or when was it, dont remember) and it wont be worked on anymore, at least in fm21. They are already working on fm22 so there will be no improvements on that front for fm21.

[LeoFM]

4 hours ago, blejdek said:

This issue has not been worked on since latest big patch (march or when was it, dont remember) and it wont be worked on anymore, at least in fm21. They are already working on fm22 so there will be no improvements on that front for fm21.

Well that sucks, I hope fixing this issue is a top priority for FM22 though.