known issue Youth Intake Broken Just Like Beta

[Andrew James]

7 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Im fine with numbers decreasing especially if its due to poor CA/PA but i hated seeing Premier league teams with no Goalkeeper and noone singing players. We shall wait and see huh. 

If you do spot anything like this then please let start a new post with save game files provided if you can, these issues can be a nightmare to track down and specific examples are very useful in getting wider spread issues fixed

[ratio1618]

1 minute ago, Andrew James said:

If you do spot anything like this then please let start a new post with save game files provided if you can, these issues can be a nightmare to track down and specific examples are very useful in getting wider spread issues fixed

Will do bro. Ill run a real life database set up after this test to see if thats still the case. Im sure people will beat me to the punch however i do think that the issue i was seeing there was purely because of teams not singing new managers and keeping a caretaker for 10 years

 

[Leonbro17]

I dont check it it is fixed or not

 

[Double0Seven]

So basically, don't touch advanced db options for now as it might lead to more problems. 

Would be nice to see your test results with advanced db loading and without this for the people that are testing.

[ratio1618]

Just now, Double0Seven said:

So basically, don't touch advanced db options for now as it might lead to more problems. 

Would be nice to see your test results with advanced db loading and without this for the people that are testing.

I have a far mroe stripped back version of Daveincids test running with 90k players. Ill let you know hgow many i lose after 2 years in a bit.

[Sharkn20]

How are we doing with this after today's update? Can we start to remove playable leagues in other countries without the downside of having not enough regens in those areas? Or are we still not doing well in that?

Any takers to crunch some numbers for the Community? Thanks!

[ratio1618]

1 minute ago, Sharkn20 said:

How are we doing with this after today's update? Can we start to remove playable leagues in other countries without the downside of having not enough regens in those areas? Or are we still not doing well in that?

Any takers to crunch some numbers for the Community? Thanks!

We are running extensive tests now. I think Dave is asleep

[Andrew James]

1 minute ago, Sharkn20 said:

How are we doing with this after today's update? Can we start to remove playable leagues in other countries without the downside of having not enough regens in those areas? Or are we still not doing well in that?

Removing playable nations would still result in a decrease in the number of newgens generating in that nation, which is correct behaviour - but the top clubs should now still receive an intake every year after tonight's update. 

[ratio1618]

1 minute ago, Andrew James said:

Removing playable nations would still result in a decrease in the number of newgens generating in that nation, which is correct behaviour - but the top clubs should now still receive an intake every year after tonight's update. 

Define "Top Clubs"

[Andrew James]

1 minute ago, ratio1618 said:

Define "Top Clubs"

The definition in this context is a complicated mixture of reputation, expectations, league standard and youth rating, plus some other factors. 

The result should mean that the vast majority of nations where we have playable leagues in FM21 should now receive at least some newgens every year, regardless of db setup.

As is always the case though, the fewer players in a nation at game start, the fewer newgens they'll receive. 

[ratio1618]

Just now, Andrew James said:

The definition in this context is a complicated mixture of reputation, expectations, league standard and youth rating, plus some other factors. 

The result should mean that the vast majority of nations where we have playable leagues in FM21 should now receive at least some newgens every year, regardless of db setup.

As is always the case though, the fewer players in a nation at game start, the fewer newgens they'll receive. 

So Oceania essentially gets roughly 10 players a year? Im really interested in how the non playable leagues/Continents that dont have leagues are generating new players.

[ratio1618]

Welp after 2 years with every league as view only and only the Swiss league loaded. i went from 90,200 players to 87,063

This was using these rules for a custom database set up.

[Andrew James]

4 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

So Oceania essentially gets roughly 10 players a year?

It would depend upon how many players were based there at game start.

[ratio1618]

1 minute ago, Andrew James said:

It would depend upon how many players were based there at game start.

 

 

Is it normal for view only teams to not have managers and also have some players in vital positions greyed out?

[Andrew James]

1 minute ago, ratio1618 said:

after 2 years with every league as view only and only the Swiss league loaded. i went from 90,200 players to 87,063

Which month were you in at this point? Player count can fluctuate a lot throughout a season depending on where you're at with the various nations' intake/retirement cycles.

Unfortunately we are aware of a dropping player count in some regions such as South America and Asia, and these custom db setups seem to be the most affected. 

[Andrew James]

4 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Is it normal for view only teams to not have managers and also have some players in vital positions greyed out?

There's no reason why they shouldn't have a manager - maybe they've just sacked one or something?

Number of players in view-only teams will again depend on starting db. 

[ratio1618]

1 minute ago, Andrew James said:

Which month were you in at this point? Player count can fluctuate a lot throughout a season depending on where you're at with the various nations' intake/retirement cycles.

Unfortunately we are aware of a dropping player count in some regions such as South America and Asia, and these custom db setups seem to be the most affected. 

it was from august 2020 to august 2022

Honestly it seems fine. Im sure Dave will have a more comprehensive report becuase he has actual written down data from the past patch.


Anyways here is New Zealands only youth intake.

 

Seems ok to me for a nation that has no leagues loaded in both the nation and continent. I will run tests with my NZ league and see if they plump up. 


 

[ratio1618]

2 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

There's no reason why they shouldn't have a manager - maybe they've just sacked one or something?

Number of players in view-only teams will again depend on starting db. 

Seems like the bug is still in place where they arent hiring a new manager after sacking one.

 

 

This is the case in almost every view only league i have checked.

[ratio1618]

This doesnt feel right.

[Andrew James]

7 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

it was from august 2020 to august 2022

Honestly it seems fine.

Glad to hear it. In August player count is likely to be near its lowest as a big batch of retirements tend to happen in July around contract expiry date

Unfortunately I do expect there to be some player count decline in your test due to the issue I mentioned before with South America and Asia, which we believe is due to high retirement numbers rather than lack of newgens. 

7 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Seems like the bug is still in place where they arent hiring a new manager after sacking one.

This isn't my area of expertise, do you know if it's been raised in the relevant bug forum? 

 

[ratio1618]

Just now, Andrew James said:

Glad to hear it. In August player count is likely to be near its lowest as a big batch of retirements tend to happen in July around contract expiry date

Unfortunately I do expect there to be some player count decline in your test due to the issue I mentioned before with South America and Asia, which we believe is due to high retirement numbers rather than lack of newgens. 

This isn't my area of expertise, do you know if it's been raised in the relevant bug forum? 

 

Should i raise it as a bug? The manager bug i mean.

Edited December 18, 2020 by ratio1618

[Andrew James]

4 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Should i raise it as a bug? The manager bug i mean.

Yes please. Someone who knows better than me may already be aware of it, but I'd say it's worth making sure

 

[gsdax24]

I believe view-only teams not hiring new managers has been present since old FM, never thought it was a bug, just clubs not being that active.

I made a test with some custom obscure leagues, mostly from caribbean countries (1 active, the rest view only). 15k thousand players. My player count just went up in around 200 players (Jan 2020- Jan 2023). Almost all of those countries got a (tiny) youth intake in those years: 728 players in 2021, 324 players in 2022 (counting all countries except the active league).

[lukavski]

4 minutes ago, gsdax24 said:

I believe view-only teams not hiring new managers has been present since old FM, never thought it was a bug, just clubs not being that active.

I made a test with some custom obscure leagues, mostly from caribbean countries (1 active, the rest view only). 15k thousand players. My player count just went up in around 200 players (Jan 2020- Jan 2023). Almost all of those countries got a (tiny) youth intake in those years: 728 players in 2021, 324 players in 2022 (counting all countries except the active league).

This.

 

View-Only clubs not hiring managers has always been a problem in FM. Every year a thread discussing this bug is posted in the appropriated forum, but the problem has never been solved. I believe it has to do with Clubs, league reputation and transfer passivity in inactive leagues.

 

I'm glad to hear this bug has been solved. Thanks.

[ratio1618]

11 minutes ago, gsdax24 said:

I believe view-only teams not hiring new managers has been present since old FM, never thought it was a bug, just clubs not being that active.

I made a test with some custom obscure leagues, mostly from caribbean countries (1 active, the rest view only). 15k thousand players. My player count just went up in around 200 players (Jan 2020- Jan 2023). Almost all of those countries got a (tiny) youth intake in those years: 728 players in 2021, 324 players in 2022 (counting all countries except the active league).

I would run that test till at least 2030 and see how low those numbers get

[ratio1618]

4 minutes ago, lukavski said:

This.

 

View-Only clubs not hiring managers has always been a problem in FM. Every year a thread discussing this bug is posted in the appropriated forum, but the problem has never been solved. I believe it has to do with Clubs, league reputation and transfer passivity in inactive leagues.

 

I'm glad to hear this bug has been solved. Thanks.

Whats weird about this is

If i were to draw one of these teams in a Champions league do they just generate a "grey manager" for the game?

[lukavski]

2 minutes ago, ratio1618 said:

Whats weird about this is

If i were to draw one of these teams in a Champions league do they just generate a "grey manager" for the game?

No, they just won't have an active manager on the club.

 

This also happens with players from low reputation teams, they will be replaced by grey ones as you advance into the future. Low reputation clubs in Only-view or inactive leagues aren't active during transfer windows. They only sell or free players and fire managers after their contract expires.

[ratio1618]

3 minutes ago, lukavski said:

No, they just won't have an active manager on the club.

 

This also happens with players from low reputation teams, they will be replaced by grey ones as you advance into the future. Low reputation clubs in Only-view or inactive leagues aren't active during transfer windows. They only sell or free players and fire managers after their contract expires.

So press conference questions pre-match wont mention another manager at all.

Why does this feel like tis nor meant to happen.

[freddieos]

3 hours ago, ratio1618 said:

Should i raise it as a bug? The manager bug i mean.

this was there for FM20 as well. View-only teams never replace staff that gets fired or who's contracts were not renewed. True for coaches, physios etc.

[forameuss]

Post-update, in a save with just Scotland and England (all levels) playable, I'm seeing what looks like full intakes in 2020 (around 15 players, even for teams in the jobber leagues), then down to what looks like 6 or 7 for EVERY team in 2021 and 2022, then down to 2-3 every year from then on.  I haven't fully followed all the furore around the intake bug, but is this what we'd expect to see?  Am I just seeing the number of players that a club would naturally take on, with the first year being an abberation due to Covid?  Like, are they being given intakes of 12-15 behind the scenes but most of them are awful and let go?  Or is this indicative of an issue?  Top division teams don't seem to be struggling with players, but the lower ones have a lot of grey players, even in playable leagues.

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb forameuss:

Post-update, in a save with just Scotland and England (all levels) playable, I'm seeing what looks like full intakes in 2020 (around 15 players, even for teams in the jobber leagues), then down to what looks like 6 or 7 for EVERY team in 2021 and 2022, then down to 2-3 every year from then on.  I haven't fully followed all the furore around the intake bug, but is this what we'd expect to see?  Am I just seeing the number of players that a club would naturally take on, with the first year being an abberation due to Covid?  Like, are they being given intakes of 12-15 behind the scenes but most of them are awful and let go?  Or is this indicative of an issue?  Top division teams don't seem to be struggling with players, but the lower ones have a lot of grey players, even in playable leagues.

please no....I'm still running my tests. Grey ones in playable leagues sounds bad

[forameuss]

I'm in July 2030, so wonder if I've just picked a bad time of the year as squads might be in a bit of flux anyway.  Moving on to October to see if they bolster the ranks a bit.  Quick check down the leagues and it looked like no club had grey players down to the Highland/Lowland leagues in Scotland (and they were "activated" via the editor, so could well be that it's just struggling in the really low levels, and not representative of the overall).

Will check out after it reaches October.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb forameuss:

I'm in July 2030, so wonder if I've just picked a bad time of the year as squads might be in a bit of flux anyway.  Moving on to October to see if they bolster the ranks a bit.  Quick check down the leagues and it looked like no club had grey players down to the Highland/Lowland leagues in Scotland (and they were "activated" via the editor, so could well be that it's just struggling in the really low levels, and not representative of the overall).

Will check out after it reaches October.

How does the total number of players in the databank changed since the start?

[forameuss]

No idea, hadn't tracked it.

[forameuss]

How do you find out player counts?  On Add/Remove Leagues?  Is that accurate?

If so, then looks like a much larger one than when I started.  Add/Remove is saying approximately 30000 players, and I believe I started it with a small database of 11750.

Edited December 18, 2020 by forameuss

[Daveincid]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb forameuss:

How do you find out player counts?  On Add/Remove Leagues?  Is that accurate?

If so, then looks like a much larger one than when I started.  Add/Remove is saying approximately 30000 players, and I believe I started it with a small database of 11750.

When you still have your start save, just retire as a manager, you will see in the right corner "player search, this shows you the total amount of players. Now do the same in your future save and compare the numbers. I started with 225k players, in 2022 there are 210k, this is absolutely fine due a lot of very old players retire and free agents too. I think it will further drop to 200k, but then it should remain more or less arround 200k for the whole save.

[Double0Seven]

3 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

When you still have your start save, just retire as a manager, you will see in the right corner "player search, this shows you the total amount of players. Now do the same in your future save and compare the numbers. I started with 225k players, in 2022 there are 210k, this is absolutely fine due a lot of very old players retire and free agents too. I think it will further drop to 200k, but then it should remain more or less arround 200k for the whole save.

Did you load any extra players via advanced db? That would have caused issues like Andrew said. Would be interesting to see a test without any advanced db loading. That would be a nice compromise imo. 

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Double0Seven:

Did you load any extra players via advanced db? That would have caused issues like Andrew said. Would be interesting to see a test without any advanced db loading. That would be a nice compromise imo. 

Yes, I always load players via the advanced db. Yeah I know there is still an issue, but it's about how bad is it still.

[forameuss]

Fast-forwarded to youth intake day, and my target club got a full intake, so suspect clubs are just taking a low number in to try and keep things balanced.  Looks positive in that sense at least.  Still quite a few clubs in the lower leagues showing pretty small clubs, but that's probably more an AI thing rather than an intake thing.

[Leonbro17]

So its fine and in can Start my save? 

 

[blejdek]

Any news on the testing ?

 

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb blejdek:

Any news on the testing ?

 

WIP

[CalcyW]

Is the update expecting to have fixed players not generating in playable leagues too or is the focus just non-playable?

[Andrew James]

23 minutes ago, CalcyW said:

Is the update expecting to have fixed players not generating in playable leagues too or is the focus just non-playable?

The latest update contains a fix for the lack of newgens generating in inactive leagues, as well as further tweaks to intake and retirement numbers. If you do find any examples of clubs incorrectly receiving no youth intake, or less players than they should, then please start a new post in the bugs forum with the relevant save game files.

Unfortunately we are still aware of some issues with a decreasing total player count, particularly in saves with custom database setups at game start, and in some areas such as South America and Asia. 

[Daveincid]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Andrew James:

The latest update contains a fix for the lack of newgens generating in inactive leagues, as well as further tweaks to intake and retirement numbers. If you do find any examples of clubs incorrectly receiving no youth intake, or less players than they should, then please start a new post in the bugs forum with the relevant save game files.

Unfortunately we are still aware of some issues with a decreasing total player count, particularly in saves with custom database setups at game start, and in some areas such as South America and Asia. 

Hi Andrew, I don't know if you guys already considered the following taken into account:

- A lot of leagues playable => less decrease, completely playable in the longrun IMO

- view-only and some leagues playable with custom db => still struggles massively. Start db 110k, in 28 its 81k. It's "okay" if it stays like this, but I guess it will drop further.

So my thoughts are that in a inactive or view-only league, there is less transfer activity. So if a player from such a league outgrowns his Club, he will get released on a free (because he refuses to sign a new contract). But then he doesn't find a club, because the inactive and view-only leagues are lacking in transfer-activity. So he will retire at some point.  

I also realized there are arround 2300 newgens per year in total.  To keep the balance, there should be arround 4000. 

I will upload all my data and files as soon as it's ready!

 

Cheers

Daveincid

Edited December 18, 2020 by Daveincid

[Captain Krakatoa]

16 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

So my thoughts are that in a inactive or view-only league, there is less transfer activity. So if a player from such a league outgrowns his Club, he will get released on a free (because he refuses to sign a new contract). But then he doesn't find a club, because the inactive and view-only leagues are lacking in transfer-activity. So he will retire at some point.  

I wonder, isn't the view-only leagues transfer activity lower than the playable one is no secret? It does be like that for years.

 

Why does it cause problems now by players get released free etc while it never been a problem before?

[Daveincid]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Captain Krakatoa:

I wonder, isn't the view-only leagues transfer activity lower than the playable one is no secret? It does be like that for years.

 

Why does it cause problems now by players get released free etc while it never been a problem before?

The massive decrease, as far as I know, never happend in earlier versions. So things change, maybe something is overlooked. So why not posting ideas?  It's better than other just moaning arround the game is broken and ask when it's fixed. I prefer to help as much as possible, but of course I am frustrated, as this post maybe shows a bit

Edited December 18, 2020 by Daveincid

[lukavski]

10 minutes ago, Captain Krakatoa said:

I wonder, isn't the view-only leagues transfer activity lower than the playable one is no secret? It does be like that for years.

 

Why does it cause problems now by players get released free etc while it never been a problem before?

Non-playable leagues releasing players and transfer inactivity has always been a thing en FM.

With this version bug, clubs in those leagues didn't populate correctly because of low youth intakes. So now, with yesterday fix, newgen are populating those countries again, but how clubs manage them has not changed.

Edited December 18, 2020 by lukavski

[Platinum]

29 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Hi Andrew, I don't know if you guys already considered the following taken into account:

- A lot of leagues playable => less decrease, completely playable in the longrun IMO

- view-only and some leagues playable with custom db => still struggles massively. Start db 110k, in 28 its 81k. It's "okay" if it stays like this, but I guess it will drop further.

So my thoughts are that in a inactive or view-only league, there is less transfer activity. So if a player from such a league outgrowns his Club, he will get released on a free (because he refuses to sign a new contract). But then he doesn't find a club, because the inactive and view-only leagues are lacking in transfer-activity. So he will retire at some point.  

I also realized there are arround 2300 newgens per year in total.  To keep the balance, there should be arround 4000. 

I will upload all my data and files as soon as it's ready!

 

Cheers

Daveincid

How did it do with your recommended setup?

Would you describe it as "view-only and some leagues playable with custom db"?

[Daveincid]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb francis#17:

How did it do with your recommended setup?

Would you describe it as "view-only and some leagues playable with custom db"?

to test this in the longrun I need at least 2 days.