Should i carry on with my save - Youth Intake Problems

[Double0Seven]

6 minutes ago, jamie10lpoole said:

I loaded this as playable with nothing added via advanced. Have lost a total of 7k players from the start. 

First season was roughly 11k newgens. 2nd 6k, 3rd 4.7k and 4th season was 4k globally

A huge amount of teams across the playable leagues have dropped down in intake size drastically, with many top teams in their respective countries receiving only 2/3 per season as a max

 

Should just bug report it. More for them to look at.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Double0Seven

[jamie10lpoole]

5 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

how does flamengo u20 look at the start?

They start off with a squad of 18

[jamie10lpoole]

7 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

Should just bug report it. More for them to look at.

I made a report of this save on friday morning, I'm sure they're already aware, but a lot of talk of playable leagues being fine and the issues effecting only non playable leagues troubles me

Edited December 5, 2020 by jamie10lpoole

[Daveincid]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb jamie10lpoole:

I made a report of this save on friday morning, I'm sure they're already aware, but a lot of talk of playable leagues being fine and the issues effecting only non playable leagues troubles me

 Brazil IMO is a special case. Flamengo has 72 players in total at the start. This is not the usual case for other teams.  So argueing that playable leagues are 100% not fine is simply not true and it  unsettles people. I have a save in 2045 with all leagues loaded and it looks pretty good. It's also a problem if you load only the first league from brazil. FM has problems to retain the player amount when a team get's relegated to a unplayable league. 

Again....playable leagues are working pretty good, all teams have more than enough players....here you go

 

[jamie10lpoole]

3 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

 Brazil IMO is a special case. Flamengo has 72 players in total at the start. This is not the usual case for other teams.  So argueing that playable leagues are 100% not fine is simply not true and it  unsettles people. I have a save in 2045 with all leagues loaded and it looks pretty good. It's also a problem if you load only the first league from brazil. FM has problems to retain the player amount when a team get's relegated to a unplayable league. 

Again....playable leagues are working pretty good, all teams have more than enough players....here you go

 

Like I said, this is happening in multiple countries. Even in England Youth Academies are already beginning to dwindle compared to their starting points just 5 years into a save. FC Kobenhavn are another fully loaded team that has almost entirely stopped producing, just 2 a year for the previous 2 seasons

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb jamie10lpoole:

Like I said, this is happening in multiple countries. Even in England Youth Academies are already beginning to dwindle compared to their starting points just 5 years into a save. FC Kobenhavn are another fully loaded team that has almost entirely stopped producing, just 2 a year for the previous 2 seasons

and again, in 2045, all playable nations are completely fine and you can run a save without any issues. But it's okay to have different views of what makes a game playable and what doesn't.

[Double0Seven]

15 minutes ago, jamie10lpoole said:

Like I said, this is happening in multiple countries. Even in England Youth Academies are already beginning to dwindle compared to their starting points just 5 years into a save. FC Kobenhavn are another fully loaded team that has almost entirely stopped producing, just 2 a year for the previous 2 seasons

I have never actually checked in previous games, was this also the case for FM 20, 19 etc? I thought as long as the total database is balanced issues like these aren't that bad. 

[jamie10lpoole]

3 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

I have never actually checked in previous games, was this also the case for FM 20, 19 etc? I thought as long as the total database is balanced issues like these aren't that bad. 

In my experience with past games, the player count remained fairly consistent for the most part.

Whereas at the moment with Fm21 the playerbase gradually dwindles year on year whether you load playable or not. I've lost around 10% of the total starting playercount in under 5 years. Which is not normal

Edited December 5, 2020 by jamie10lpoole

[Double0Seven]

Just now, jamie10lpoole said:

In my experience with past games, the player count remained consistent for the most part.

Whereas at the moment with Fm21 the playerbase gradually dwindles year on year whether you load playable or not. I've lost around 10% of the total starting playercount in just 5 years. Which is not normal

Yes I know this, but was wondering if it's also the case for the youth squads you showed. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Double0Seven

[jamie10lpoole]

I do not remember encountering this issue before but will run a quick test and see if there are any similar issues with youth squads in playable leagues in fm20

[Daveincid]

My general view about this all: 

Difference between real-life and FM:

IRL the teams from first division clubs have usually a big youth academy with a lot of players. Generally maybe 2-3 per year will make their way into the first team. All the others are trying their luck at a different pro-club, they go into lower leagues or to amateur clubs or retire completely. So smaller clubs IRL often don't have a good academy for their first team, they are filled with bunch of academy players from topclubs.

FM is different.

Every team has a youth-intake. So to not messing up the balance (simple math), there shouldn't be much more than 3-6 newgens per season for clubs in general, otherwise the database gets inflated. So to my logic, FM isn't programmed to have the same amount of youngsters in the future in their team as this is the case at the start. 

The game is about first team football with the possibility to develop your youngsters and that works good IMO

[jamie10lpoole]

1 hour ago, Double0Seven said:

Yes I know this, but was wondering if it's also the case for the youth squads you showed. 

After a few seasons on FM20 the U18s of all prem clubs are filled to a similar level as game start with a team of newgens and zero greyed out players, which isn't the case on FM21

Edited December 6, 2020 by jamie10lpoole

[OlivierL]

So still issues with countries on 'view  only ' or not selected  leagues ? if I make those leagues playable at a later stage.  Could this help or is the damage  already done ?

Edited December 6, 2020 by OlivierL

[jamie10lpoole]

9 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

So still issues with countries on 'view  only ' or not selected  leagues ? if I make those leagues playable at a later stage.  Could this help or is the damage  already done ?

Playable leagues are also having issues in not generating as many newgens as in recent years. Some countries only producing 2/3 per team as a whole even when fully playable 

a lot of non playable countries also produce zero newgens at all

[OlivierL]

5 hours ago, jamie10lpoole said:

Playable leagues are also having issues in not generating as many newgens as in recent years. Some countries only producing 2/3 per team as a whole even when fully playable 

a lot of non playable countries also produce zero newgens at all

whooooaaaaat ?  I saw a reply from @Andrew James about this problem. SI are working on it.

Edited December 6, 2020 by OlivierL

[blejdek]

So I saw in one topic, dont remember which one?, one of the guys of sigames said that the problems mostly occurs to people with small database, if you have chosen the largest databse option in advanced settings, the problems are a lot smaller and even tho the total player count may drop a little its still insignificant, while u mostly keep the numbers up as were at the start or large database. I saw many of you tried going forward with testing in your saves, but I think it would be very usefull if you could do this with small/medium/large database and then we can compare how are the numbers standing (numbers in total, the best is probably convert everything to %, while its the most easiest way to compare the differenet sizes in that way). 

[Daveincid]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb blejdek:

So I saw in one topic, dont remember which one?, one of the guys of sigames said that the problems mostly occurs to people with small database, if you have chosen the largest databse option in advanced settings, the problems are a lot smaller and even tho the total player count may drop a little its still insignificant, while u mostly keep the numbers up as were at the start or large database. I saw many of you tried going forward with testing in your saves, but I think it would be very usefull if you could do this with small/medium/large database and then we can compare how are the numbers standing (numbers in total, the best is probably convert everything to %, while its the most easiest way to compare the differenet sizes in that way). 

kinda agree. The problem is, that it takes weeks of testing to have a valuable result. I am currently in 2022 with 98 nations playable, after 20hours of simulation on a high end pc. 

[OlivierL]

6 hours ago, jamie10lpoole said:

Playable leagues are also having issues in not generating as many newgens as in recent years. Some countries only producing 2/3 per team as a whole even when fully playable 

a lot of non playable countries also produce zero newgens at all

I have a quick question. If I change 'view' to 'playable' during a save, while playing lower league.. isn't it better to wait untill i'm playing in the higher divisions myself ? Or will changing 'view' to 'playable' after 10 seasons mean that a lot of players will be missing ?  One more important thing to know is that i'm doing a youth only (so no transfers).

It doesn't matter what is happening in Germany while i'm playing in National North. but it will be important if if i promote a few times.

[wicksyFM]

So, what are people’s thoughts on starting a save. I’m not wanting to wait any longer games been out since the 24th November can’t keep putting it off and waiting for a fix. We have no idea when that is coming. The fix is save game compatible so as long as I don’t push on to far I should be ok. I’m thinking if I played a max of a few seasons then any problems will be barely noticeable.  By then a patch will come fix the problems. Should be fine. I think 😂

[Daveincid]

vor 51 Minuten schrieb wicksyFM:

So, what are people’s thoughts on starting a save. I’m not wanting to wait any longer games been out since the 24th November can’t keep putting it off and waiting for a fix. We have no idea when that is coming. The fix is save game compatible so as long as I don’t push on to far I should be ok. I’m thinking if I played a max of a few seasons then any problems will be barely noticeable.  By then a patch will come fix the problems. Should be fine. I think 😂

depends on your setup, your goals in the save^^ It's definetly playable and enjoyable at this state IMO

[wicksyFM]

11 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

depends on your setup, your goals in the save^^ It's definetly playable and enjoyable at this state IMO

The usual type of save i suppose. A team from the Lowest playable league in England, Germany or Italy. Climb the Leagues, develop youth, win some trophies. Try and become the biggest club in the world.

Large database with top divisions from about 8  major nations loaded.

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb wicksyFM:

The usual type of save i suppose. A team from the Lowest playable league in England, Germany or Italy. Climb the Leagues, develop youth, win some trophies. Try and become the biggest club in the world.

Large database with top divisions from about 8  major nations loaded.

"usual" for me is all leagues loaded 

I mean the issues with unloaded leagues are well known, if this doesn't really annoys you, I don't see any reason to not start and have fun!

Sometimes it helps, not being too perfectionistic (beside your players personality of course), you will always look for errors and won't enjoy playing. 

I'm currently managing real valladolid, trying to get some brazilian talent's to create a "fat-ronaldo-dream-team". I really enjoy it so far

[Guest]

Just ran the game on with a smallish database of about 60k players, all the leagues chosen playable - mostly Europe first divisions and England down to Vanarama north/south.

After 15 years have only 38k players. After 10 years it was 47k.  Not looking good.

(Did it to start again with my favourite team, but no known players.).

[Junkhead]

I don't know how things work on small database as I have never selected it.  But on larger set ups there is constant flux with player numbers, there always has been.  Not sure if it's as large as some of the examples on this thread though, I have to be honest.

But there is always a big drop from the start as the game balances itself.  Unless I look at the number, I never actually notice anything through play.

[blejdek]

42 minutes ago, bringbacklilnux said:

Just ran the game on with a smallish database of about 60k players, all the leagues chosen playable - mostly Europe first divisions and England down to Vanarama north/south.

After 15 years have only 38k players. After 10 years it was 47k.  Not looking good.

(Did it to start again with my favourite team, but no known players.).

For the real picture in my opinion you should now try that same thing with large database and see how many players are there in 15 years and how many in 10 years. As I mentioned earlier, the biggest problem is with the small database, while if u are having large database its maybe playish?

[jamie10lpoole]

2 minutes ago, blejdek said:

For the real picture in my opinion you should now try that same thing with large database and see how many players are there in 15 years and how many in 10 years. As I mentioned earlier, the biggest problem is with the small database, while if u are having large database its maybe playish?

I have a large DB in my sim and have already lost over 10% of the playercount in under 5 years

Edited December 6, 2020 by jamie10lpoole

[jamie10lpoole]

Total newgens per year globally also continues to decrease every year 

[gibbo11]

Bought FM yesterday and was holidaying a level 10 save to test it and experience this issue with the playable teams. A ton of grey players everywhere and very little newgens through youth intakes, so definitely an issue for playable nations too

[upthetoon]

i really hope SI are looking at this and a quick fix is on the way. for people with potato computers and small database; long term save is completely not possible at the moment. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, blejdek said:

For the real picture in my opinion you should now try that same thing with large database and see how many players are there in 15 years and how many in 10 years. As I mentioned earlier, the biggest problem is with the small database, while if u are having large database its maybe playish?

The small database referred to the number of initial players, about 60k, rather than the drop-down menu selection.

It was on advanced settings from an earlier career mode that had 'top players' from nations selected etc.  Not really sure what was selected other than the specific nation leagues.  60k players and all selected leagues playable seemed about enough for my pc's predicted processing ability.

[jackritchie7]

How can people who only play the game for full game saves? or the long aim of a full game save be able to play the game? this needs to be fixed asap. Its appreciated the work going on. But how frustrating for people who have bought the game. Any idea when it'll be fixed or if it even will...?

[KUBI]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb jackritchie7:

Any idea when it'll be fixed or if it even will...?

It's Sunday evening. I'm sure they are working on it, but such things needs to be tested a lot, before they could release a fix.

[jackritchie7]

1 minute ago, KUBI said:

It's Sunday evening. I'm sure they are working on it, but such things needs to be tested a lot, before they could release a fix.

Glad you know what day it is pal 

[MechNeo]

We want refund

[KUBI]

vor 1 Minute schrieb MechNeo:

We want refund

If you want a refund contact the retailer where you bought the game.

[blejdek]

Calm down guys, we know the fix is coming, we just need a little patience

[Guest]

1 hour ago, KUBI said:

It's Sunday evening. I'm sure they are working on it, but such things needs to be tested a lot, before they could release a fix.

Unlike before the release?

[MechNeo]

We cant wait more

 

[ratio1618]

If you watch DrBenjyFms latest video with the Erling Haaland save it seems this bug is what lead to the Bath team he "forced him" to play with for 10 years to get relegated 3 times in a row, the caretaker manager never left and they had a grey GK for a few years.

[oblongata21]

1 hour ago, MechNeo said:

We cant wait more

 

Unfortunately youre going to have to wait or get a refund.

Theyre fixing it, thats the main thing

[Grifty]

I'm 6 years in and hadn't noticed a decline in regen numbers, although I'm not at a team where players from other countries are too willing to go.

I checked out a few Brazilian teams (Brazil not playable) and there were only 1 or 2 regens in their u19 squads. I have since added Brazil (and 5 or 6 other leagues) as playable, but will wait for the next round or two of youth intakes to see if that increases.

The game is 100% playable though, just maybe not exactly how everyone wants, but you can certainly play it.

[MyNameIsJohn]

Playable of course but for those who want a long term, immersive career this is a big enough deal to see us not wanting to start saves until it’s fixed.  We wait patiently 👍

[Mayzie]

 

On 06/12/2020 at 13:37, Daveincid said:

"usual" for me is all leagues loaded 

I mean the issues with unloaded leagues are well known, if this doesn't really annoys you, I don't see any reason to not start and have fun!

Sometimes it helps, not being too perfectionistic (beside your players personality of course), you will always look for errors and won't enjoy playing. 

I'm currently managing real valladolid, trying to get some brazilian talent's to create a "fat-ronaldo-dream-team". I really enjoy it so far

 

I think what you're saying is that we should completely ignore that the game is broken so that we can enjoy playing the broken game.  The fact that the number of players in the database is dropping significantly each season, means that if you play for long enough, you're potentially going to be regularly playing against greyed out teams.  It's alright giving it the "I loaded 98 nations and it's not too bad" but not everyone is going to load 100 nations with the intention of playing a save in just one country, particularly when doing so could be game breaking in itself by making it ridiculously slow. 

Imagine you didn't have 100 nations loaded as playable and were in 2050...you wouldn't be able to sign a single Brazilian player as none have been generated in decades.  They are just greyed out superstars winning World Cups 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Mayzie

[Daveincid]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Mayzie:

 

 

It think what you're saying is that we should completely ignore that the game is broken so that we can enjoy playing the broken game.  The fact that the number of players in the database is dropping significantly each season, means that if you play for long enough, you're potentially going to be regularly playing against greyed out teams.  It's alright giving it the "I loaded 98 nations and it's not too bad" but not everyone is going to load 100 nations with the intention of playing a save in just one country, particularly when doing so could be game breaking in itself by making it ridiculously slow. 

Imagine you didn't have 100 nations loaded as playable and were in 2050...you wouldn't be able to sign a single Brazilian player as none have been generated in decades.  They are just greyed out superstars winning World Cups 

Nope, I never said that.  For a longterm-save: The game is playable if you load all leagues. The game is unplayable if you play with a small setup. As simple as that. But then you can't just say in general that the game is broken, because it isn't. It's broken for almost everyone who plays with a small setup.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Daveincid

[LC15]

9 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Nope, I never said that.  For a longterm-save: The game is playable if you load all leagues. The game is unplayable if you play with a small setup. As simple as that. But then you can't just say in general that the game is broken, because it isn't. It's broken for almost everyone who plays with a small setup.

To be fair if the game is broken for almost everyone who plays a small setup then that's a sizable portion of its player base. Not everyone has the computer specs to play with all leagues loaded and it is possible to get a good spread of players on smaller databases through the advanced options. In that sense and for all of those players the game is not in an acceptable state as it currently stands. I imagine it is those people who are the focus of this thread rather than those with the ability to load every league. 

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb LC15:

To be fair if the game is broken for almost everyone who plays a small setup then that's a sizable portion of its player base. Not everyone has the computer specs to play with all leagues loaded and it is possible to get a good spread of players on smaller databases through the advanced options. In that sense and for all of those players the game is not in an acceptable state as it currently stands. I imagine it is those people who are the focus of this thread rather than those with the ability to load every league. 

Yes and that's  frustrating and SI need's to fix this ASAP. It's annoying for me too to load all leagues and have a slow day-to-day too. But that's not the point. 

The question was: Should I carry on with my save with the youth intake problem?

Yes, if you have a beefy pc or plenty of time with a lot of leagues loaded

Nope if not.

So i don't understand the problem of my statement that the game looks pretty good and it is playable with the right setup? 

It really is the worst bug I remember since playing fm in 2012, so I do not defend SI at all, I just want to show, that it's "theoretically"  still playable.

 

[Junkhead]

Think it's quite an important distinction that @Daveincidis making, personally. 

I am happily cracking on with my 54 nations loaded, large database save. Any fix is likely to be reasonably swift and save game compatible. So for me this disappointing issue is likely to have minimal affect.

So my personal answer to the original question is also "yes".  I hope it is fixed soon though, of course.

 

[Guest]

Keep the _faith_ indeed.

The object of any religion, even in the face of evidence.

Here is hoping too.

[LC15]

I know for a fact that if I attempted to load all leagues my game would grind to a halt - my game is as slow as I can tolerate (2 stars if I'm lucky) on 60k players so to more than double that would not be feasible for me. 

My previous post was not intended to dismiss your views or anyone elses but to explain why some would not agree with them. To play with all leagues loaded may solve the youth intake problem but for me and I am sure others it is not a feasible option.

For me the game is not playable, nor in a good state for that reason. It is good that some people are not limited by their computers in similar ways and can play but not everyone should be forced to push their hardware to its limit in an attempt to play the game. 

Again none of this is intended to dismiss or be disrespectful to your own view. 

[Daveincid]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb LC15:

I know for a fact that if I attempted to load all leagues my game would grind to a halt - my game is as slow as I can tolerate (2 stars if I'm lucky) on 60k players so to more than double that would not be feasible for me. 

My previous post was not intended to dismiss your views or anyone elses but to explain why some would not agree with them. To play with all leagues loaded may solve the youth intake problem but for me and I am sure others it is not a feasible option.

For me the game is not playable, nor in a good state for that reason. It is good that some people are not limited by their computers in similar ways and can play but not everyone should be forced to push their hardware to its limit in an attempt to play the game. 

Again none of this is intended to dismiss or be disrespectful to your own view. 

No problem! I always react allergic if there are ultimate statements like: This game is 100% not playable and such. The truth is somewhere in the middle, like most times. So I can agree with your view and still keep my arguments too, so everything is fine!