need more info Gegenpress cheating again.....

[Neo14]

I am a french regular at CM and now FM.

I went from FM2019 to FM 2021, I had skipped the 2020 after having had all the games since 1997.

I find the game very good, engine engine is much improved compared to the 2019 version.

I like to play 4-2-3-1 in gegenpress with OM and I adapt the team instructions according to my sensitivity.

I started my part in the beta and I continued my part:

- the 1st champion season with OM, eliminated in 8th CD

- the 2nd champion season with OM, eliminated in 1/4 of the LDC

- the 3rd season undefeated champion with OM, final of CDF and winner of the LDC

So I inquired and read that the gegenpress was cheated from FM20 and apparently it's the same on this version.

Too bad I will therefore abandon this tactic to add difficulty and make it realistic.

Why has SI not corrected this bug for 1 year ???

[Mars_Blackmon]

Yes, any attacking pressing tactic are still OP and defensive tactics like counter attacking are too passive.

The game needs a balance.

[CJ Ramson]

On 01/12/2020 at 09:36, Neo14 said:

So I inquired and read that the gegenpress was cheated from FM20 and apparently it's the same on this version.

Too bad I will therefore abandon this tactic to add difficulty and make it realistic.

Why has SI not corrected this bug for 1 year ???

Gegenpress was edited for the Winter update on FM20 and changed quite a bit.

If you've been playing since 1997, Marseille might not be the biggest challenge for you.

[Mars_Blackmon]

Attacking High intensity tactics are still OP. 

Interesting seeing Sheffield United do so well despite not having the players to use such a tactic.

 

Going more attacking so open up some holes on the defense which isn’t happening in the game at a realistic rate. And such high intensity should be tiring players more often than currently.

 

[4football]

What kind of info is required? Just don't say pkm
What is broken? Just type fm 2021 tactic in google or youtube and u will see it. All of them are the same. High or extreme tempo. Maximum pressing. Counter attack. The end.
Isn't it broken that every "pro" player has to use such combination to achieve good results?

Good ME is when you can use different tactics to win matches. Not just 1 with a little variations.

Edited December 4, 2020 by 4football

[Mars_Blackmon]

23 minutes ago, 4football said:

What kind of info is required? Just don't say pkm
What is broken? Just type fm 2021 tactic in google or youtube and u will see it. All of them are the same. High or extreme tempo. Maximum pressing. Counter attack. The end.
Isn't it broken that every "pro" player has to use such combination to achieve good results?

Good ME is when you can use different tactics to win matches. Not just 1 with a little variations.

It’s at the point where I don’t play any mentality over positive and only restrict myself to using attacking or very attacking at the very end of the game when I need late goals.

 

in fact, a dev replied recently that attacking and very attacking are only meant to be used in that very scenario because of how expose it can leave your defense. Well that’s not really the case especially if you have premium players on your team.

 

not to mention playing that type of intensity for 90 minutes multiple times a week should result in some major condition issues going into the second game for the week. It should be pretty much be suicide playing that football with a semi pro team who only practice 2-3 times a week. Not the case currently.

[tarzanofmars]

21 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

not to mention playing that type of intensity for 90 minutes multiple times a week should result in some major condition issues going into the second game for the week. It should be pretty much be suicide playing that football with a semi pro team who only practice 2-3 times a week. Not the case currently.

What should actually happen is those players simply do not press after a point because they don't have the legs, it should also reduce the amount of runs made and their defensive work rate should drop off, all this should occur before condition issues for any but the most determined and fit players at the semi-pro and lower league levels.

High intensity pressing is very effective and has been before the evolution into gegenpressing, but the rate/level at which it must be executed to achieve that effectiveness should not be available to lower league/skill teams long term because of fitness and quality of players available.

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by tarzanofmars

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, tarzanofmars said:

What should actually happen is those players simply do not press after a point because they don't have the legs, it should also reduce the amount of runs made and their defensive work rate should drop off, all this should occur before condition issues for any but the most determined and fit players at the semi-pro and lower league levels.

High intensity pressing is very effective and has been before the evolution into gegenpressing, but the rate/level at which it must be executed to achieve that effectiveness should not be available to lower league/skill teams long term because of fitness and quality of players available.

 

Yea, I would love to see players “slacking off” to persevere fatigue.

[Mars_Blackmon]

Started a English lower league (Level 10) save with a team predicted to battle relegation.

 

This is the results so far using a Attacking High Intensity tactic. I have a Striker who isn't very good attribute wise with 31 goals so far in 29 games.

 

[Mars_Blackmon]

Here's the pkm from my latest game.

 

Also a screenshot of my team's condition right after the game. Using very high intensity and attacking mentality. I should mentioned that I haven't dealt with too many injuries this season despite the play style.

Brimsdown v May & Baker.pkm

[4football]

People say game is to ez
Guess what

 

[4football]

How it is even possible that Si says its ok - there is no problems?!

[Mars_Blackmon]

Attacking mentality with high intensity can even make Wycombe a premier league team...

[sthptngomad76]

Sad. Was hoping for something more than "plug and play and win" but it really looks as though its the same as last year.

Had a similar tactic last year getting Southampton to 4th in Feb, without buying a single player or giving a single instruction. Just set the tactics at the start of the season, holidayed between games and clicked continue/auto-select lineup. It's not down to skill tactically, nor being shrewd on the transfer market. It's simply find an overpowered meta and click continue.

And please no more "just avoid the tactic". A game like this shouldn't rely on me to make it competitive for myself. I'd rather difficulty levels with blatantly overpowered/favoured AI (like Civilisation V had) at higher levels than this.

[upthetoon]

Terrible to see this. I don't believe that attributes are taken into consideration in the ME. 

Any team can play gegenpress to huge success to perfection with no penalty to their long term fitness or condition. 

[DarklinkCL]

I have faith in SI for next update ;)

They will nerf Gengenpress and make the game nice and hard, as I'm sure most of us want.

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 hours ago, upthetoon said:

Terrible to see this. I don't believe that attributes are taken into consideration in the ME. 

Any team can play gegenpress to huge success to perfection with no penalty to their long term fitness or condition. 

Sums it up. I hope this is fixed in a patch.

[4football]

Would be nice to. But they did not even change a label to under review...

[DiasV]

The problem is that every single of the most successful tactics made in the game is either positive or attacking and they fits every team regardless of quality. You overperform with an attacking and high pressing tactic and underperforms with a defensive tactic (even as a bottom team CA-wise). It seems like tactics are way more important than CA, while in real life CA is way more important than tactics...so there is a flaw here and it needs to be sorted. Physical attributes must be less important, technical attributes must be more important and CA must outperform attacking tactics in way bigger grade. 

Tace a look at the passing completion percentage. For the best teams its way to low. Meaning the top teams dont pass as well as in real life, again it means that they dont manage to play out of a high pressure as effective in real life. If you play attacking against Bayern you loose 5-0 in real life because they just play out of the pressure and get to attack with more players than the defending team. In FM the best teams loose the ball way to often and the high pressure worse teams gets lots of chances and wins the games.

 

[Mars_Blackmon]

31 minutes ago, DiasV said:

The problem is that every single of the most successful tactics made in the game is either positive or attacking and they fits every team regardless of quality. You overperform with an attacking and high pressing tactic and underperforms with a defensive tactic (even as a bottom team CA-wise). It seems like tactics are way more important than CA, while in real life CA is way more important than tactics...so there is a flaw here and it needs to be sorted. Physical attributes must be less important, technical attributes must be more important and CA must outperform attacking tactics in way bigger grade. 

Tace a look at the passing completion percentage. For the best teams its way to low. Meaning the top teams dont pass as well as in real life, again it means that they dont manage to play out of a high pressure as effective in real life. If you play attacking against Bayern you loose 5-0 in real life because they just play out of the pressure and get to attack with more players than the defending team. In FM the best teams loose the ball way to often and the high pressure worse teams gets lots of chances and wins the games.

 

This is another reason Why I think the AI is coming off as passive and beatable. Humans managers are most likely going to use a positive or an attacking mentality even if they are underdogs going into the game. Maybe they’ll downgrade to balance. 
 

AI managers seem to mostly have defensive and cautious mentalities. Balance is the norm for a favorite. You rarely seen teams going attacking in the scouting report...

A human would start a game on very attacking and not get penalized, while the AI would only use this mentality at the end of the game down a few goals.

[bahmet]

I fully support. Tested on 5 teams that are not favorites of their championships. No transfers.

Just expose Geggenpress tactics and you don't need to change anything else during the season. Victories in the championships by a margin. Bayern, Liverpool, Manchester City can do nothing against this tactic. And in the championship lead below.

[sthptngomad76]

On 11/12/2020 at 07:01, bahmet said:

I fully support. Tested on 5 teams that are not favorites of their championships. No transfers.

Just expose Geggenpress tactics and you don't need to change anything else during the season. Victories in the championships by a margin. Bayern, Liverpool, Manchester City can do nothing against this tactic. And in the championship lead below.

Do you have examples of this? I'm really curious. I feel that this has been an issue since 19 (which incidentally corresponds to my loss of interest with the series)