Improving my 4-3-3 (I think it is almost there!)

[ozilthegunner]

Been working on a 4-3-3DM in my Arsenal save and had some really great successes (3-0 against Chelsea, 5-1 against Liverpool in back-to-back premier league games, and I deactivated the initial transfer window so using the actual squad). But then it started getting inconsistent: Tons of (good) shots with no goals (against both offensive and defensive teams) and now relatively few (good) shots and few or no goals (wins are often 1-0). I have tweaked it a few times, but none of the tweaks clearly corresponded to the peaks or troughs. So, hoping you all can help (and sorry for lack of pictures -  I play on a separate machine):

ST: Complete Forward-Attack (have tried other things, but only CF has regularly kept the striker involved and attack seems better than support at doing so)

LW: Raumdateur-Attack right now, but pretty useless. Had IF-a previously, not really any better. Tried winger (support and attack) but again pretty useless. Hands down the least involved player on the team.

RW: Inverted Winger-Support: Must build tactic around this, as everyone that plays here (and especially Pepe) does really well both assisting and scoring

LCM: Mezzala-Support or BBM-Support: Does ok, once upon a time (as MZ-s) was doing great

RCM: Advanced Playmaker-Attack: Does great, almost always 7+ player rating, made a lot of chances (up until recent massive reduction in chances across the team)

DM: DM-defense, previously support. Does fine. I do notice a benefit when playing a player with better passing (and long range/risky passing PPMs)

LB: WB-support, previously Inverted Wingback-Defend and then -Support. IWB(d) provided cover but was otherwise useless (sort of covered for the MZ though). IWB(s) covered and provided some attacking value. Went to WB-support because I was worried I was getting too narrow.

LCB: BPD-Defend

RCB: CB-Defend

RB: IWB-Support. Combines well in build up and is really dynamic in attack (with 'overlap right' TI on, he plays sort of like a CWB but narrower). I feel like maybe I should not invert him in order to maintain width, but his involvement in build-up is so nice.

GK: SK-defend

 

Was originally playing on attacking mentality with much shorter passing, play through the middle, overlap right, and work ball into box. That worked a treat in the early days. Lots of intricate passing at the top of the box followed by sliding in a runner who shot or laid it off for a teammate.

Now playing on positive mentality with shorter passing, lower tempo, focus play on the right, overlap right. Thought is to overload the right (with the IW, AP, and IWB) and then hit the Raum in space, but that has basically never worked.

Obviously there are some other TIs, but I think that covers the key stuff I am mostly worried about... we don't concede much at all (even on attacking against Chelsea/Liverpool in those games mentioned earlier) and so maybe I should work on the defense, but need the offense ticking first.

Any thoughts?!

[Experienced Defender]

Okay, let's first try to figure out your (current) setup of roles and duties. Is it like this:

CFat

RMD                                  IWsu

MEZsu   APat

DMde

WBsu    BPDde   CDde   IWBsu

SKde

Correct or not? 

25 minutes ago, ozilthegunner said:

Was originally playing on attacking mentality with much shorter passing, play through the middle, overlap right, and work ball into box

When you are a top team and hence the favorite in most matches, the Play through the middle TI can easily play right into the hands of the (defensive) opposition, as you are trying to attack them exactly where they are most densely packed.

Likewise, Work ball into box can overcomplicate your attacks and thus make it easier for them to defend. That's why I prefer to pair it with Be more expressive (when I use it at all). 

What are your out-of-possession TIs? Because how you set DL and LOE matters a lot and affects not just your defensive but also attacking performance. Overly aggressive pressing can also have an adverse effect, which is one of the most common mistakes that people make when playing FM.

[to_madeira]

30 minutos atrás, ozilthegunner disse:

Been working on a 4-3-3DM in my Arsenal save and had some really great successes (3-0 against Chelsea, 5-1 against Liverpool in back-to-back premier league games, and I deactivated the initial transfer window so using the actual squad). But then it started getting inconsistent: Tons of (good) shots with no goals (against both offensive and defensive teams) and now relatively few (good) shots and few or no goals (wins are often 1-0). I have tweaked it a few times, but none of the tweaks clearly corresponded to the peaks or troughs. So, hoping you all can help (and sorry for lack of pictures -  I play on a separate machine):

ST: Complete Forward-Attack (have tried other things, but only CF has regularly kept the striker involved and attack seems better than support at doing so)

LW: Raumdateur-Attack right now, but pretty useless. Had IF-a previously, not really any better. Tried winger (support and attack) but again pretty useless. Hands down the least involved player on the team.

RW: Inverted Winger-Support: Must build tactic around this, as everyone that plays here (and especially Pepe) does really well both assisting and scoring

LCM: Mezzala-Support or BBM-Support: Does ok, once upon a time (as MZ-s) was doing great

RCM: Advanced Playmaker-Attack: Does great, almost always 7+ player rating, made a lot of chances (up until recent massive reduction in chances across the team)

DM: DM-defense, previously support. Does fine. I do notice a benefit when playing a player with better passing (and long range/risky passing PPMs)

LB: WB-support, previously Inverted Wingback-Defend and then -Support. IWB(d) provided cover but was otherwise useless (sort of covered for the MZ though). IWB(s) covered and provided some attacking value. Went to WB-support because I was worried I was getting too narrow.

LCB: BPD-Defend

RCB: CB-Defend

RB: IWB-Support. Combines well in build up and is really dynamic in attack (with 'overlap right' TI on, he plays sort of like a CWB but narrower). I feel like maybe I should not invert him in order to maintain width, but his involvement in build-up is so nice.

GK: SK-defend

 

Was originally playing on attacking mentality with much shorter passing, play through the middle, overlap right, and work ball into box. That worked a treat in the early days. Lots of intricate passing at the top of the box followed by sliding in a runner who shot or laid it off for a teammate.

Now playing on positive mentality with shorter passing, lower tempo, focus play on the right, overlap right. Thought is to overload the right (with the IW, AP, and IWB) and then hit the Raum in space, but that has basically never worked.

Obviously there are some other TIs, but I think that covers the key stuff I am mostly worried about... we don't concede much at all (even on attacking against Chelsea/Liverpool in those games mentioned earlier) and so maybe I should work on the defense, but need the offense ticking first.

Any thoughts?!

Maybe "underlap right" will be better to achieve this as overlap tells your players to look for the outside run.

[ozilthegunner]

@Experienced Defender Yeah, you got the formation right (sorry, I thought if  I tried to do what you did it could be all odd looking)

As for the notes about TIs:

• I had often been turning off 'play through the middle' in favor of 'play down the right' (or nothing, but more often focus right). Although, the very best games I played had it on. But, that is part of the reason I have turned it off entirely as of late. Although I clearly lose the really cool close interplay at the top of the box that I really liked before
• Thanks for the note on 'Work ball into box'... that is part of why I am trying to play with the combo of passing distance, tempo, and WTIB... I do want generally smart buildup and close interplay in the attacking third, so trying to find the right combo for that. Thoughts?
• I did forget I have been using "Be more Expressive" the whole time... I totally agree it really helps when playing this type of system (used to just turn it on mid game, but now it is permanent)

And fair play about the defense, my apologies for not including lines. I left both LOE and DL on 'standard' when on 'attacking' mentality, and made pressing 'more urgent' (and closing down more on front 3 as well). When I switched to positive, I upped the LOE and DL to just 'higher'. Pressing is the same

 

@To Madeira - yeah, underlap makes more sense given the IWB, but I have found that the overlap leads to him mostly going inside but occasionally going outside and I like that dynamism...

[to_madeira]

@ozilthegunner It's not about the IWB. Underlaps tells your (righ sided) players to look players running inside not just the full backs and looks to me that's what your plan (both Raum and Mezz are making these runs). I've used a similar setup (IFa instead of Raum) and achieved that overload one side to explore the other with a combination of Focus play + underlap.

Rashidi has a great video on this matter if you want to check it out.

[ozilthegunner]

4 minutes ago, to_madeira said:

@ozilthegunner It's not about the IWB. Underlaps tells your (righ sided) players to look players running inside not just the full backs and looks to me that's what your plan (both Raum and Mezz are making these runs). I've used a similar setup (IFa instead of Raum) and achieved that overload one side to explore the other with a combination of Focus play + underlap.

Rashidi has a great video on this matter if you want to check it out.

I see, thanks. And yeah, I am familiar with that approach. I was actually trying to build the overload on the other side (IWs, APa, IWBs) to release the raum... but then I realized the MEZ was probably getting too close to the raum (stay wide hard PI) which may have prevented the isolation. So I change the MEZ to a B2B, but that hasn't seemed to help (I wouldn't think the 'roaming' would cause a problem, as with focus right he'd roam that direction I'd assume)

But yeah, I see, could still work well with the IW, AP, and IWB (now underlapping). Although I feel like I do already get the overload, just not the release

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, ozilthegunner said:

I do want generally smart buildup and close interplay in the attacking third, so trying to find the right combo for that. Thoughts?

Okay, what would you say about one (pretty small) tweak - a simple swap of sides and duties of the mezzala and AP - MEZ on attack in MCR (behind the IW) and AP on support in MCL (behind the RMD)?

May look "trivial" at first glance, but could actually prove crucial. 

2 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:

I left both LOE and DL on 'standard' when on 'attacking' mentality, and made pressing 'more urgent' (and closing down more on front 3 as well). When I switched to positive, I upped the LOE and DL to just 'higher'. Pressing is the same

Not optimal IMHO, but let's first sort out roles and duties.

[ozilthegunner]

18 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, what would you say about one (pretty small) tweak - a simple swap of sides and duties of the mezzala and AP - MEZ on attack in MCR (behind the IW) and AP on support in MCL (behind the RMD)?

May look "trivial" at first glance, but could actually prove crucial. 

Not optimal IMHO, but let's first sort out roles and duties.

Great, thanks. I had toyed with that a bit, but didn't give it much of an opportunity. I'll run it longer. My original thought is I wanted both CMs to get quite involved in the attack (so Mez on support had 'get further forward' and I had put it on the APa but then removed it) and so thought the APs would be too deep. But since I have been trying to move them both back a bit to increase space, this help.

One worry I have, though, is whether the Mez would collide with the IW... but I had that worry with the APa as well, whatever

[Guest]

I have recently have a good result with the combo Mez(A) + W(S), and realize that everything was because during the build up everybody play in their space, stay wider as a hard code PI for the W plays a crucial role here, as indeed the W dont make the same use of the half space, but assuming that you want to play an IW with a Mezzala I would recommend this:

- Having both on different duties, for example, Mez(A) + IW(S)

- Stay wider for your IW as a PI, because you mezzala will be already playing on the half space, and your IW will receive the ball wider, and then will drive into the half space... This combined with few traits can give you a deadly combo on the wing, for example, your Mez(A) has gets into oppositions area + IW(S) has hugs line, if the opposition is tight marking or pressing your IW your mezzala will constantly running into the gap that their fullback is leaving, leading to a 1vs1 situation with oppostion CB

[Experienced Defender]

14 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:

Great, thanks. I had toyed with that a bit, but didn't give it much of an opportunity. I'll run it longer

You may need to tweak a couple of instructions as well. For example, upping the tempo to default instead of lower, given that you already use shorter passing. CF on support instead of attack is another potential tweak you may consider. And so on, until you get everything right.

[ozilthegunner]

12 hours ago, Vinay17 said:

I have recently have a good result with the combo Mez(A) + W(S), and realize that everything was because during the build up everybody play in their space, stay wider as a hard code PI for the W plays a crucial role here, as indeed the W dont make the same use of the half space, but assuming that you want to play an IW with a Mezzala I would recommend this:

- Having both on different duties, for example, Mez(A) + IW(S)

- Stay wider for your IW as a PI, because you mezzala will be already playing on the half space, and your IW will receive the ball wider, and then will drive into the half space... This combined with few traits can give you a deadly combo on the wing, for example, your Mez(A) has gets into oppositions area + IW(S) has hugs line, if the opposition is tight marking or pressing your IW your mezzala will constantly running into the gap that their fullback is leaving, leading to a 1vs1 situation with oppostion CB

Yeah, I really don't want to use a winger, but I did put the 'stay wide' PI on the IW(s) to try to maintain some space there. It also happens to fit with Pepe's PPM to 'run wide with the ball' (while putting him as an IW, along with his left footedness, encourages him to move inside to balance things out)

Haven't yet had an opportunity to test out these changes fully, but will report back when I do. Thanks for the help

One general question - what are peoples' thoughts on the Inverted Wingback role? In both FM20 and 21 I have really liked the sort of movement I get from my RB as an IWB(s) (with overlap right on) - dynamic in a way I couldn't get with a CWB (despite thinking that should do it) and him moving inside early in build-up really helps with ball retention and such. However, I wonder if he is just clogging things up in the end, especially as my players in that position (especially Bellerin) have the PPM to get further forward. He scores a few goals from late runs, which is great, but perhaps he is too advanced too often... and, of course, it means we have no width once the IW moves in

[frukox]

23 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:

Been working on a 4-3-3DM in my Arsenal save and had some really great successes (3-0 against Chelsea, 5-1 against Liverpool in back-to-back premier league games, and I deactivated the initial transfer window so using the actual squad). But then it started getting inconsistent: Tons of (good) shots with no goals (against both offensive and defensive teams) and now relatively few (good) shots and few or no goals (wins are often 1-0). I have tweaked it a few times, but none of the tweaks clearly corresponded to the peaks or troughs. So, hoping you all can help (and sorry for lack of pictures -  I play on a separate machine):

ST: Complete Forward-Attack (have tried other things, but only CF has regularly kept the striker involved and attack seems better than support at doing so)

LW: Raumdateur-Attack right now, but pretty useless. Had IF-a previously, not really any better. Tried winger (support and attack) but again pretty useless. Hands down the least involved player on the team.

RW: Inverted Winger-Support: Must build tactic around this, as everyone that plays here (and especially Pepe) does really well both assisting and scoring

LCM: Mezzala-Support or BBM-Support: Does ok, once upon a time (as MZ-s) was doing great

RCM: Advanced Playmaker-Attack: Does great, almost always 7+ player rating, made a lot of chances (up until recent massive reduction in chances across the team)

DM: DM-defense, previously support. Does fine. I do notice a benefit when playing a player with better passing (and long range/risky passing PPMs)

LB: WB-support, previously Inverted Wingback-Defend and then -Support. IWB(d) provided cover but was otherwise useless (sort of covered for the MZ though). IWB(s) covered and provided some attacking value. Went to WB-support because I was worried I was getting too narrow.

LCB: BPD-Defend

RCB: CB-Defend

RB: IWB-Support. Combines well in build up and is really dynamic in attack (with 'overlap right' TI on, he plays sort of like a CWB but narrower). I feel like maybe I should not invert him in order to maintain width, but his involvement in build-up is so nice.

GK: SK-defend

 

Was originally playing on attacking mentality with much shorter passing, play through the middle, overlap right, and work ball into box. That worked a treat in the early days. Lots of intricate passing at the top of the box followed by sliding in a runner who shot or laid it off for a teammate.

Now playing on positive mentality with shorter passing, lower tempo, focus play on the right, overlap right. Thought is to overload the right (with the IW, AP, and IWB) and then hit the Raum in space, but that has basically never worked.

Obviously there are some other TIs, but I think that covers the key stuff I am mostly worried about... we don't concede much at all (even on attacking against Chelsea/Liverpool in those games mentioned earlier) and so maybe I should work on the defense, but need the offense ticking first.

Any thoughts?!

I think the problem is you can't find the space your attackers need. Now they may be deep in the final third and the space could be at a premium because you are trying to play a slow possession football, which I call defensive possession football. So you need to create some question marks for the opposition defence to answer when you camp around their defensive third. When they defend in a high line, you could find the space behind more easily but you have to create your own pockets of space for your creators and attackers to operate well. So I would personally try to overload the flanks and create some depth for my team to find some space in front of their defensive line and get the second balls to recycle possession for another attack and keeping the pressure on them.

You are not too far off as you say. You plan to occupy CBs with your CFA and you also pin their right FB with RMD. So now you created some depth. Who is going to utilize this space? A CMA will try to get into penalty area and be a distraction for their DM or DMs and RPMs will have lots of space to work around their defensive third thanks to the depth created by the CMD and the CFA. What about your right flank? Pairing an IWS with a FBA will create a nice overload there. Now your FBA and IWS has at least three targets in the area with two players waiting outside the penalty area for cut-backs and recycling possession. Those could be a RPMs(suitable for high-tempo tactics) and a CMD in CM strata to defend space a bit closer to the penalty area thus increasing our chances of getting the second balls. What about our left full back? It could be a WBS to help RMD on the left flank and be a passing outlet when the ball is at your right flank with a quick switch of play. 

How about your instructions? I would remove overlap right(I proposed a FBA there-you would have a natural overload), shorter passing and lower tempo. Then I would add pass into space, hit early crosses, higher tempo to create for our CFA and RMD quickly during the attacking phase. We need to use other tools such as out-of possession instructions. It defines our style of play. You didn't mention them. Anyway, I would opt for a medium-block for it to work. It would create some space behind their defensive line. So it would be ideal for my attackers. So I would use Higher DL(I need my full-backs up early in the transition to attack) Defend Narrower(to create a trap on the flanks) and Offside Trap(to compress space further-higher lines need intelligent and fast defenders) and OI their fullbacks(close down) and instruct our full-backs to close down more. If you believe your team is generally good at tackling, consider adding Get Stuck In(for quicker turnovers and transitions in the middle third). When it comes to your in-transition instructions, you didn't mention them, either. There I would add Distribute to Full-backs( the easiest way to reach your flanks quicker-remember we plan fast transitions)

So visually it would look like this:

                   CF(A)

RMD                             IW(S) (instruct him to stay wider)(play killer balls, switch to other flank)

            CM(D)   CM(A) (roam from position, trait: get into opposition area/gets forward whenever possible)

                    RPM(dictate tempo, play killer balls, switch ball to other flank,arrive late into box)

WB(S) CD(D) BPD(D) FB(A).

Here a well-rounded CMD is better for possession purposes. So playmaking traits would be golden. 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by frukox

[ozilthegunner]

17 minutes ago, frukox said:

I think the problem is you can't find the space your attackers need. Now they may be deep in the final third and the space could be at a premium because you are trying to play a slow possession football, which I call defensive possession football. So you need to create some question marks for the opposition defence to answer when you camp around their defensive third. When they defend in a high line, you could find the space behind more easily but you have to create your own pockets of space for your creators and attackers to operate well. So I would personally try to overload the flanks and create some depth for my team to find some space in front of their defensive line and get the second balls to recycle possession for another attack and keeping the pressure on them.

You are not too far off as you say. You plan to occupy CBs with your CFA and you also pin their right FB with RMD. So now you created some depth. Who is going to utilize this space? A CMA will try to get into penalty area and be a distraction for their DM or DMs.  What about your right flank? Pairing an IWS with a FBA will create a nice overload there. Now your FBA and IWS has at least three targets in the area with two players waiting outside the penalty area for cut-backs and recycling possession. Those could be a RPMs(suitable for high-tempo tactics) and a CMD in CM strata to defend space a bit closer to the penalty area thus increasing our chances of getting the second balls. What about our left full back? It could be a WBS to help RMD on the left flank and be a passing outlet when the ball is at your right flank with a quick switch of play. 

How about your instructions? I would remove overlap right(I proposed a FBA there-you would have a natural overload there), shorter passing and lower tempo. Then I would add pass into space, hit early crosses, higher tempo to create for our CFA and RMD quickly during the attacking phase. We need to use other tools such as out-of possession instructions. It defines our style of play. You didn't mention them. Anyway, I would opt for a medium-block for it to work. It would create some space behind their defensive line. So it would be ideal for my attackers. So I would use Higher DL(I need my full-backs up early in the transition to attack) Defend Narrower(to create a trap on the flanks) and Offside Trap(to compress space further-higher lines need intelligent and fast defenders) and OI their fullbacks(close down) and instruct our full-backs to close down more. If you believe your team is generally good at tackling, consider adding Get Stuck In(for quicker turnovers and transitions in the middle third). When it comes to your in-transition instructions, you didn't mention them, either. There I would add Distribute to Full-backs( the easiest way to reach your flanks quicker-remember we plan fast transitions)

So visually it would look like this:

                   CF(A)

RMD                             IW(S) (instruct him to stay wider)(play killer balls, switch to other flank)

            CM(D)   CM(A) (roam from position, trait: get into opposition area/gets forward whenever possible)

                    RPM(dictate tempo, play killer balls, switch ball to other flank,arrive late into box)

WB(S) CD(D) BPD(D) FB(A).

Here a well-rounded CMD is better for possession purposes. So playmaking traits would be golden. 

 

Thanks for this. It seems to me at least some of what you are suggesting will just lead to a different play style entirely... hitting crosses early and higher tempo both seem to encourage a very quick attacking play. And your general suggestion of focusing play down the flanks also changes things up (although I am not necessarily opposed to that depending on what it looks like).

But is your idea that these sort of instructions (specifically things like early crosses) will allow for my team to sometimes decide to move up quickly to feed (for instance) the striker but that the instructions won't stop the team from also taking things more slowly and developing play in the final third?

I am also interested in your suggestion of the RPM in the DM slot. I like playing with an RPM, although I typically have done it in the CM slot with a DM behind (in the DM role). Any concerns about defensive solidity? I suppose the CMd helps...

I do have 2 players (Partey and Guendouzi) who could be pretty good in a DM RPM slot (at least on FM20 Guendouzi was a great RPM... he is still on loan in my FM21 save so haven't used him yet). That would allow me to move a player like Torreira or ElNeny up in the CMd.

One final question: Any particular reason you put the BPD on the right rather than the left? I only ask because I have been playing him on the left, as that is where my best BPD lines up.

So, I guess this is what I'll say: I'm interested in what this will look like, but skeptical it'll be a refinement of what I am doing rather than just a straight up different approach (which may be interesting in its own right)

And, more generally, thanks for the explanations... even if I don't use all the ideas, I can incorporate the reasoning a bit more

[frukox]

8 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:

Thanks for this. It seems to me at least some of what you are suggesting will just lead to a different play style entirely... hitting crosses early and higher tempo both seem to encourage a very quick attacking play. And your general suggestion of focusing play down the flanks also changes things up (although I am not necessarily opposed to that depending on what it looks like).

But is your idea that these sort of instructions (specifically things like early crosses) will allow for my team to sometimes decide to move up quickly to feed (for instance) the striker but that the instructions won't stop the team from also taking things more slowly and developing play in the final third?

I am also interested in your suggestion of the RPM in the DM slot. I like playing with an RPM, although I typically have done it in the CM slot with a DM behind (in the DM role). Any concerns about defensive solidity? I suppose the CMd helps...

I do have 2 players (Partey and Guendouzi) who could be pretty good in a DM RPM slot (at least on FM20 Guendouzi was a great RPM... he is still on loan in my FM21 save so haven't used him yet). That would allow me to move a player like Torreira or ElNeny up in the CMd.

One final question: Any particular reason you put the BPD on the right rather than the left? I only ask because I have been playing him on the left, as that is where my best BPD lines up.

So, I guess this is what I'll say: I'm interested in what this will look like, but skeptical it'll be a refinement of what I am doing rather than just a straight up different approach (which may be interesting in its own right)

And, more generally, thanks for the explanations... even if I don't use all the ideas, I can incorporate the reasoning a bit more

If you want to open up a team you need to take some risks. I suppose your team is mentally good. So it would not be a big deal. Yes, I freed DM slot. Here I would use a complete player for example.

You're right, this kind of a system isn't similar to yours but you want your CFA and RMD to shine, right? And with regard to fast tempo, I would drop the tempo by a notch and use a couple of players who can dictate tempo( so they decide to play it slow or fast according to the situation.) when they retreat to their defensive third quickly. It should work like a treat. I tried the same tactic I proposed and created 11 chances in the box and scored two goals:)

RMD is on the left flank so playing a BPD on the right will be more suitable for easier diagonals)

Edited December 9, 2020 by frukox

[ozilthegunner]

Finally got a chance to implement some of the recommendations. It was right at the end of our first season - 4 games to go and champions league qualification on the line. Had to play Man U, Liverpool, Sheffield, and Chelsea with the first 3 all being away games and with Man U, Liverpool, and Chelsea all being above me in the table.

Drew Man U (last minute corner rescued a point for me), lost 1-0 to Liverpool (after spanking them 5-1 at home earlier in the season with the attacking 4-3-3), lost 4-2 or some weirdness to Sheffield (they dominated us...), and then beat Chelsea 4-1 (with 4 different goal scorers from 4 different positions) on decision day to leap above them into 4th, securing Champions League and sending both Chelsea and Everton into Europa. So, I suppose, on the whole, things worked out, but just barely obviously.

Now as I move into a new season I want to hopefully solidify the tactics before the season starts (unlike last season) and I brought in a couple of players in the positions I think I was weakest (left-sided forward and a creative/attacking midfielder). With that in mind, what I have right now as far as the tactic goes is this:

I switched the left winger from Raum to IF(a) - I went for Raum originally because it seemed better for someone like Aubamayang who has great off the ball movement and anticipation but poor passing and dribbling. However, other than one game, no one ever did well as a Raum (in that one game, I believe it was Reiss Nelson who scored 2). But the IF(a) is more involved generally and seems to score more goals overall. Also, I brought in Fekir (since Depay signed a new deal with Lyon at the last minute!) who I plan to have as first choice in that spot. He is left footed, which was off putting, but I think it just gives me a chance to have the Mez and ST shine more and be fed by a much more well-rounded IF.

I finished the season with the striker as a CF(a) [so no change] but other than Lacazette, my available strikers aren't all that fit for the CF role and even Laca isn't amazing at it. So, I'd like to try to get the Pressing Forward working again - I really enjoyed it on FM20. So that is why that is selected here now.

As far as team instructions goes - I have now pulled basically everything back (didn't do that at the tail end of the season, just here in the offseason). I'm on balanced mentality with only play out of defense selected in possession. No transition or out of possession TIs currently selected. Based on that, I have a couple of observations and questions:

1. I'm a bit unconvinced about the DM as a Half-back. I switched him to a DM(d) in at least a couple of those final games because he just seemed too deep overall. I know he is supposed to sort of sit between the centerbacks to split them in order to cover more for the fullbacks, but it made build-up play problematic if we were getting pressed. Also, I am not sure I really want the fullbacks to get so advanced (see issue with those roles below). Keeping in mind that my existing choices for the DM position are Lucas Torreira, Thomas Partey, and Mo ElNeny (and, I suppose, potentially Guendouzi, but I see him as more advanced I think), I am trying to figure out how to get the best out of that position. ElNeny was great as a DM(d), Partey was poor everywhere I used him, and I didn't have Torreira or Guendouzi (they were on loan) but in FM20 both were surprisingly great. So, what to do with this role?

2. Relatedly, I am unconvinced about the fullbacks being WB(s). The relevant players are decent in attack, so that is not the issue. Rather, I don't really like our style of play with them getting forward - just ends up being wide crosses. I think I would generally prefer that we build-up much more in the midfield (so perhaps the DM change is relevant here) with the fullbacks providing support in build-up and only getting really involved with the attack if we've been camped for awhile (if at all)

3. PF-a and IF-a. Could this pairing work out? I know an IF(a) and an AF(a) combo is not preferred, and the pressing forward is supposed to act like the advanced forward at times. But I think I've seen plenty of others do this combination.

4. Final question is about the AP(s). I switched him to the left, which I think made sense as a way of feeding the left attacker. And, if I am switching to a PF(a) in the striker role, I imagine I need the midfielder to get more advanced into the '#10' area to connect with the attack (since neither the striker nor the IF will be dropping to connect). However, I was also wondering whether I may not be better served with him as a DLP(s), sitting even deeper to provide more space for the IF. I experimented with both in those final 4 games, but given the nature of the games and my lack of players (lots of injuries) I am not sure I learned anything to make a decision. So, I am curious in your thoughts

[sporadicsmiles]

2 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:

1. I'm a bit unconvinced about the DM as a Half-back. I switched him to a DM(d) in at least a couple of those final games because he just seemed too deep overall. I know he is supposed to sort of sit between the centerbacks to split them in order to cover more for the fullbacks, but it made build-up play problematic if we were getting pressed. Also, I am not sure I really want the fullbacks to get so advanced (see issue with those roles below). Keeping in mind that my existing choices for the DM position are Lucas Torreira, Thomas Partey, and Mo ElNeny (and, I suppose, potentially Guendouzi, but I see him as more advanced I think), I am trying to figure out how to get the best out of that position. ElNeny was great as a DM(d), Partey was poor everywhere I used him, and I didn't have Torreira or Guendouzi (they were on loan) but in FM20 both were surprisingly great. So, what to do with this role?

The DMC in a 433 is a wonderful pivot you can use to recycle the ball when you are attacking. I always use him in such a manner, and he is actually one of the critical players in my team. I usually try to get a great all round guy in here, who can do defensive and creative duties. Then if you want more defensive cover, change the role of right FB to be less adventurous (I choose this one as the MC on that side has attack duty so cover here is more important. a DM(S) will do this. Provide a solid basis for attack, and a shield in defence. 

2 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:

2. Relatedly, I am unconvinced about the fullbacks being WB(s). The relevant players are decent in attack, so that is not the issue. Rather, I don't really like our style of play with them getting forward - just ends up being wide crosses. I think I would generally prefer that we build-up much more in the midfield (so perhaps the DM change is relevant here) with the fullbacks providing support in build-up and only getting really involved with the attack if we've been camped for awhile (if at all)

You will want one of the FBs to get forward, otherwise you will have little width. You can either choose the left to balance the MEZ, or the right, to create an overload with the MEZ. 

2 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:

3. PF-a and IF-a. Could this pairing work out? I know an IF(a) and an AF(a) combo is not preferred, and the pressing forward is supposed to act like the advanced forward at times. But I think I've seen plenty of others do this combination.

The potential problem is that they are both attacking the goal and nobody is creating the space for them. So if you come up against a deep defence, you could struggle to break them down. A PF(S) and IF(A) is definitely good. PF(A) and IF(A) is what I would use if I was trying to be direct. 

 

[ozilthegunner]

1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

The DMC in a 433 is a wonderful pivot you can use to recycle the ball when you are attacking. I always use him in such a manner, and he is actually one of the critical players in my team. I usually try to get a great all round guy in here, who can do defensive and creative duties. Then if you want more defensive cover, change the role of right FB to be less adventurous (I choose this one as the MC on that side has attack duty so cover here is more important. a DM(S) will do this. Provide a solid basis for attack, and a shield in defence. 

You will want one of the FBs to get forward, otherwise you will have little width. You can either choose the left to balance the MEZ, or the right, to create an overload with the MEZ. 

The potential problem is that they are both attacking the goal and nobody is creating the space for them. So if you come up against a deep defence, you could struggle to break them down. A PF(S) and IF(A) is definitely good. PF(A) and IF(A) is what I would use if I was trying to be direct. 

 

Great, thanks! I have seen the DM be great for me with his passing, especially when I play a better passer there. The problem, right now, is that none of the guys I have in the spot are particularly great passers (although not bad) but they are decent defenders. Although, they are all better passers than my fullbacks, so there's that.

I seem to recall someone discussing perhaps setting the team to 'look for underlap' on the same side as an attacking mez in order to get an overload with the Mez, FB, and winger on that side... I suppose I could try to do that (Bellerin is definitely the better attacking fullback, although not by much, but when I had him as an IWB(s) before he would make some awesome inside runs to break down the D)

And I'll play around with the PF/IF situation... I suppose if I put the IF on support, then I could ask the FB on that side to get more involved in attack...