Aerial Reach lower than Jumping Reach?

[kandersson]

Noticed this because of my first choice GK in my South Africa save but this is not uncommon at all for keepers in FM:

Reyaad Pieterse is 198cm and boasts an attribute of 20 for Jumping Reach, yet he only has 10 for Aerial Reach. I don't think it's a bug or an issue of database and research as there are actually several tall goalkeepers with 15+ for Jumping Reach and 10-12 for Aerial Reach.

According to definition of on-line manual (Aerial Reach) '...is the goalkeeper’s physical ability in aerial situations. Taller goalkeepers typically have a higher rating here as they are naturally pre-disposed to being able to reach areas shorter goalkeepers cannot, but there are exceptions. This attribute works in connection with several other goalkeeping attributes in order to determine proficiency in dealing with the numerous aerial situations they encounter during a match.'

So maybe this is an 'exception'. Not sure why a 198cm keeper with 20 for Jumping Reach and a decent Command of Area (14) should have 10 for Aerial Reach (mostly a physical ability). Maybe very short arms?

[richard.cheeseman]

Not sure. The reason but I will have. Look to see if I can find any more info for you as to how this is worked out 

short arms isn’t the answer 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

[r0x0r]

Have you considered that maybe your goalkeeper is actually a T-Rex wearing a human mask? I mean, the low aggression suggests otherwise, but it has to be worth checking out.

[RHKC]

15 minutes ago, r0x0r said:

Have you considered that maybe your goalkeeper is actually a T-Rex wearing a human mask? I mean, the low aggression suggests otherwise, but it has to be worth checking out.

The South African version of Pickford, maybe?

[TheJock83]

Man beat me to it - Pickford the perfect example. Arms get smaller as he goes for crosses.

[freddieos]

that's messed up 

[JordanMilly]

On 12/12/2020 at 13:07, RHKC said:

The South African version of Pickford, maybe?

Hey now, I might be a Liverpool fan, but leave Pickford alone.... oh damn he's coming....

[santy001]

@JordanMillward_1 looks like a picture of Pickford just selecting which Liverpool players knees he will take for his collection next. An apex predator in the greater Merseyside area for sure.

- - -

Generally though, where you find examples of players who have attributes that don't look right for their height like this it comes down to either a) Data Issue or b) Bug with a regen/generated player. 

It's something you can raise as a question, but looking at the player he's only 6'3" (according to wiki) and so a rating of 10 is just on the poor end of the spectrum for a player of that size. It's the 20 that looks out of place rather than the 10. But there's a height mismatch there too, the game has him as 198cm, Wikipedia 191cm. So there's a few things going on that can result in some weirdness.

[kandersson]

@santy001 thanks, my question is what's the reasoning behind Aerial Reach being lower than Jumping Reach, as I struggle to find much sense in this as both are described as physical abilities (though A.R. is listed under 'Goalkeeping').

Maybe strange things happen in South Africa... This is my former GK Lee Langeveldt, 180 cm and 13 for Jumping Reach, but only 3 Aerial Reach (sold him as I didn't trust him!). What's the explanation for this?

This is pretty extreme and involves a relatively unknown keeper (capped at international level though) in a relatively unknown league, but there are a lot of more reputable keepers having relevant Aerial/Jumping discrepancies:

Marwin Hitz (J 16; A 12)

Loris Karius (J 15; A 11)

Mattia Perin (J 15; A 12)

Timo Horn (J 15; A 12)

Gatito Fernandez (J 16; A 12)

Emil Audero (J 15; A 10)

Fernando Muslera (J 15; A 11)

Andrea Consigli (J 15; A 11)

Sinan Bolat (J 16; A 12)

Hakon Opdal (J 15; A 9)

These are all 190+ cm keepers with good Jumping Reach that have an average (or below average) Aerial Reach, noticeably lower than Jumping Reach. I selected some fairly reputable names from fairly reputable leagues/countries but there are actually many more. Is it possible these are all data issues, or there's a reasoning behind Jumping/Aerial reach differences, because I personally don't understand why or in which cases Aerial Reach should be lower than Jumping Reach?

PS Pickford has 14 for both Jumping Reach and Aerial Reach 

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by kandersson

[enigmatic]

If jumping is estimated based on him being tall and springy and aerial reach is estimated based on him being crap at claiming the crosses he actually comes for it just about makes sense.

Supposedly jumping reach only affects keeper's ability to win headers which can be safely ignored (I think I've seen a keeper jump and head the ball once in all my time playing for FM). 

Although in classic SI "the game wouldn't be fun if you didn't have false beliefs about what the attributes do" style, I think there was once a tooltip that claimed it was important for keepers, and its weight for CA calculations isn't zero 

[kandersson]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

If jumping is estimated based on him being tall and springy and aerial reach is estimated based on him being crap at claiming the crosses he actually comes for it just about makes sense.

Supposedly jumping reach only affects keeper's ability to win headers which can be safely ignored (I think I've seen a keeper jump and head the ball once in all my time playing for FM). 

Although in classic SI "the game wouldn't be fun if you didn't have false beliefs about what the attributes do" style, I think there was once a tooltip that claimed it was important for keepers, and its weight for CA calculations isn't zero 

Aerial reach is not estimated based on keepers being crap at claiming crosses.  That should be the 'Command of area' attribute. So a tall, athletic keeper with great vertical (both jumping and aerial reach) could be crap at claiming crosses and this should be reflected by good Jumping/Aerial reach and low Command of Area. Aerial Reach is merely a physical ability, exactly like Jumping Reach.

[enigmatic]

3 hours ago, kandersson said:

Aerial reach is not estimated based on keepers being crap at claiming crosses.  That should be the 'Command of area' attribute. So a tall, athletic keeper with great vertical (both jumping and aerial reach) could be crap at claiming crosses and this should be reflected by good Jumping/Aerial reach and low Command of Area. Aerial Reach is merely a physical ability, exactly like Jumping Reach.

Command of Area is whether they come for them, not whether they don't get there when they try

[kandersson]

37 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Command of Area is whether they come for them, not whether they don't get there when they try

Well Aerial Reach (formerly Aerial Ability) is described as a physical ability and basically the equivalent of Jumping Reach for goalkeeper's hands instead of outfield players' heads. Atm I can't find an explanation for difference between Jumping and Aerial Reach attributes for goalkeepers.

[Davidog]

More light needs to be shed on this. Would love to know their theory.

[Vänsterback]

Both attributes are linked with how tall the player is, but the "middle" of the jumping scale is 180 cm while the middle of the aerial reach scale is 185 cm. So it's reasonable that most goalkeepers have a higher number in jumping than in aerial reach.

[Davidog]

4 hours ago, Vänsterback said:

Both attributes are linked with how tall the player is, but the "middle" of the jumping scale is 180 cm while the middle of the aerial reach scale is 185 cm. So it's reasonable that most goalkeepers have a higher number in jumping than in aerial reach.

You’ve lost me to be honest lad

[Vänsterback]

1 hour ago, Davidog said:

You’ve lost me to be honest lad

The jumping attribute is relevant to all players. The aerial reach only to goalkeepers. Therefore the average jumping rating (10) is used for players of average height (about 180 cm). Since goalkeepers generally are taller, the average aerial reach rating (10) is used for goalkeepers around 185 cm. So the average 180 cm tall goalkeeper would have 10 in jumping and perhaps 8 in aerial reach, the average 185 cm tall goalkeeper 12 in jumping and 10 in aerial reach and so on.

[santy001]

Here's the researcher definition of Aerial Reach: 

This determines the goalkeeper's physical ability in aerial situations. Taller goalkeepers will typically have a higher rating here as they are naturally pre-disposed to being able to reach areas shorter goalkeepers cannot, but there will be exceptions.

Aerial Reach works similarly to how Jumping Reach works for outfield players.

- - - -

How good a keeper actually is then at judging & coming for high balls involves a further 7 attributes. 

[Davidog]

On 27/12/2020 at 18:38, santy001 said:

Here's the researcher definition of Aerial Reach: 

This determines the goalkeeper's physical ability in aerial situations. Taller goalkeepers will typically have a higher rating here as they are naturally pre-disposed to being able to reach areas shorter goalkeepers cannot, but there will be exceptions.

Aerial Reach works similarly to how Jumping Reach works for outfield players.

- - - -

How good a keeper actually is then at judging & coming for high balls involves a further 7 attributes. 

What are the exceptions? Cos I’m thinking for example let’s say a goalkeeper is 6’0 and has a jumping reach of 14, that means his height x his spring or whatever = ‘14’ so he reaches ‘14’ with his head... shouldn’t he reach further than that with his hands? As your hands surely extend further than your head?  If I’m wrong please explain..

 

 

[Davidog]

On 27/12/2020 at 15:08, Vänsterback said:

The jumping attribute is relevant to all players. The aerial reach only to goalkeepers. Therefore the average jumping rating (10) is used for players of average height (about 180 cm). Since goalkeepers generally are taller, the average aerial reach rating (10) is used for goalkeepers around 185 cm. So the average 180 cm tall goalkeeper would have 10 in jumping and perhaps 8 in aerial reach, the average 185 cm tall goalkeeper 12 in jumping and 10 in aerial reach and so on.

Please check out my query as I didn’t understand your explanation. Please let me know if I am wrong 

[santy001]

6 hours ago, Davidog said:

What are the exceptions? Cos I’m thinking for example let’s say a goalkeeper is 6’0 and has a jumping reach of 14, that means his height x his spring or whatever = ‘14’ so he reaches ‘14’ with his head... shouldn’t he reach further than that with his hands? As your hands surely extend further than your head?  If I’m wrong please explain..

 

 

Peter Shilton is the best example I can think of.

 

Can't locate some of the other highlights I've seen it in, but of course the Maradonna one is the peak and most famous example and the one vs Germany is something that is really poor, he seemed to be terrible at jumping - latter half of his career at least. Sometimes it looked like he was wearing lead boots.

The exceptions part is referring to shorter keepers vs taller keepers. There will for sure have been some keepers shorter than Shilton who could've dealt with those examples above much better. 

I can't speak much for the keepers at other clubs, you can always ask the question in the data threads and see what researchers say. If we're trying to achieve a nuance of a certain player, it may be that we've referred it up the line and been advised its the best way to recreate a certain aspect of players play. I used to deliberately underrate Marko Arnautovic's jumping reach for his height so he would bring the ball down rather than contest headers. 

[Jervaj]

They seem to be really disconnected. Thing is name wise they point to mean the same, as in how high of a ball you could claim. It could well be that the reference point is not the same, as in 10 Aerial reach is by default higher than 10 Jumping Reach. The thing is the inconsistency between different GK. As the variables that affect both reachers are the same. The only difference would be arm length but in most cases that shouldnt be a lot.

As an example of the inconsistency, both the starting GK of the team I took over.  My first choice keeper in my save is 187 cm. 13 Jumping Reach and 16 Aerial Reach. Kind of what you would expect.

Second choice gk. 193 CM. Jumping Reach 16 (the best on my team drawing with a defender) Aerial Reach only 14.

 

In theory this is just that. Given there is other attribtues for the actual aerial fight and ability to go out at the right moment and actually catch it. Really confusing.

 

[Davidog]

1 hour ago, Jervaj said:

They seem to be really disconnected. Thing is name wise they point to mean the same, as in how high of a ball you could claim. It could well be that the reference point is not the same, as in 10 Aerial reach is by default higher than 10 Jumping Reach. The thing is the inconsistency between different GK. As the variables that affect both reachers are the same. The only difference would be arm length but in most cases that shouldnt be a lot.

As an example of the inconsistency, both the starting GK of the team I took over.  My first choice keeper in my save is 187 cm. 13 Jumping Reach and 16 Aerial Reach. Kind of what you would expect.

Second choice gk. 193 CM. Jumping Reach 16 (the best on my team drawing with a defender) Aerial Reach only 14.

 

In theory this is just that. Given there is other attribtues for the actual aerial fight and ability to go out at the right moment and actually catch it. Really confusing.

 

Exactly very confusing! If you can reach a certain height with your head, you surely must be able to reach further with your hands..? That’s my only point the frequency of jumping up to claim balls and the ability to know when to claim a ball is beyond my point. 
 

I get your point in 10 Aerial reach is by default higher than 10 Jumping Reach  I do get that but I think that’s harder than it needs to be wouldn’t it be easier to judge if  he can reach let’s say ‘15’ with his head so jumping reaching 15, depending how good he can physically extend his arms and the length of his arms aerial ability should definitely be more than that?? So that rating is off of arm length x ability to extend arm but the base is ‘15’ then if your jumping reach was to go down for whatever reason e.g age lost a bit of spring, gained weight etc. Then in turn your aerial ability would go down too. I hope I’m making sense nonetheless interesting topic glad we can have a friendly discussion over it.

[Jervaj]

3 hours ago, Davidog said:

Exactly very confusing! If you can reach a certain height with your head, you surely must be able to reach further with your hands..? That’s my only point the frequency of jumping up to claim balls and the ability to know when to claim a ball is beyond my point. 
 

I get your point in 10 Aerial reach is by default higher than 10 Jumping Reach  I do get that but I think that’s harder than it needs to be wouldn’t it be easier to judge if  he can reach let’s say ‘15’ with his head so jumping reaching 15, depending how good he can physically extend his arms and the length of his arms aerial ability should definitely be more than that?? So that rating is off of arm length x ability to extend arm but the base is ‘15’ then if your jumping reach was to go down for whatever reason e.g age lost a bit of spring, gained weight etc. Then in turn your aerial ability would go down too. I hope I’m making sense nonetheless interesting topic glad we can have a friendly discussion over it.

Yeah yeah. What I meant its that it makes sense that they dont translate directly on the same scale on what reach each number means. Because if they were the same "height" of reach then you could not use the whole 1-20 scale for one of either of them. The thing is that even if thats the case, the inconsistency is very confusing, because the phisycals skills that translate to higher jumping reach would translate too to higher aerial reach. So a lower aerial reach than jumping reach could be understandable. But a GK haveing notably more jumping reach than another yet less aerial reach its where things get weird.

It could make sense if it was to define a more general ability of the keeper on the air, but its literally called reach and theres other attribtues for that. Command of the area its mentioned as been a "tendency" but I think impacts their ability a lot. Pure tendencies like eccentricity, rushing out or punching have 0 weight in CA while command of the area is weighted notably, only behind 4 other attributes. Its paired with Bravery, Concentration, Agility and Aerial Reach itself.

I assume you will certainly see a GK with higher command of the area trying to claim the high balls more, and potentially failing more often due to the extra attempt, but I think overall he will intercept more. It doesnt surprise me ebcause I already noticed that players in general seem to tend to try more the things they feel they are good at. The manual does indeed say a different thing, but it contradicts the ing ame info too. In fact in game coming out more for crosses is on the rushing out (tendency). More of the reason to think that command pertains more to ability even if it does imapct behaiour to some extent.

 

After all, I guess only SI really knows and could clarify, but this rambles are what I conclude from the info the game gives out at least.

[enigmatic]

tbh what would make most sense would be hiding Jumping Reach and giving it zero CA weight for keepers, since keepers are almost never called upon to use their Jumping Reach skill either IRL or in the ME

[Davidog]

Thinking more deeply I don’t know if I am right or wrong but come to think of it I’m questioning whether jumping reaching is actually how good the players jumping spring is. 
 

a player might let’s say has 18 jumping reach but is 5’9 he might be able to jump fantastically well but when competing with someone who is let’s say 6’2 for a straight ball the player who is 6’2 doesn’t need to have a greater jumping reach to beat the 5’9 player as he is taller so doesn’t need to have as good as a spring to win the header. 

im thinking that should correlate to aerial ability too in a way.... I think your height + your spring (jumping reach) should impact in a greater aerial ability rating maybe.. as aerial ability hasn’t nothing to do with decisions, frequency and quality it’s just how high you can possibly get up. So your height is most important to a greater rating then your spring (jumping reach) boosts it? 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Davidog

[mernild]

40 minutes ago, Davidog said:

Thinking more deeply I don’t know if I am right or wrong but come to think of it I’m questioning whether jumping reaching is actually how good the players jumping spring is. 
 

a player might let’s say has 18 jumping reach but is 5’9 he might be able to jump fantastically well but when competing with someone who is let’s say 6’2 for a straight ball the player who is 6’2 doesn’t need to have a greater jumping reach to beat the 5’9 player as he is taller so doesn’t need to have as good as a spring to win the header. 

im thinking that should correlate to aerial ability too in a way.... I think your height + your spring (jumping reach) should impact in a greater aerial ability rating maybe.. as aerial ability hasn’t nothing to do with decisions, frequency and quality it’s just how high you can possibly get up. So your height is most important to a greater rating then your spring (jumping reach) boosts it? 

That is not how it works. Jumping reach is far you can reach with your jump. The only Thing height matters for is to determine the upper and lower limit for Jumping reach. I don't know the exact numbers, but a very tall player Will get a Jumping reach between 15-20 and a midget Will get between 1-5. So the height determines Jumping reach and Jumping reach is the only Thing relevant in The Match engine 

[Davidog]

1 hour ago, mernild said:

That is not how it works. Jumping reach is far you can reach with your jump. The only Thing height matters for is to determine the upper and lower limit for Jumping reach. I don't know the exact numbers, but a very tall player Will get a Jumping reach between 15-20 and a midget Will get between 1-5. So the height determines Jumping reach and Jumping reach is the only Thing relevant in The Match engine 

How tall is very tall?

Edited January 10, 2021 by Davidog

[santy001]

This is the jumping reach table:

[Nørbæk]

On 27/12/2020 at 16:08, Vänsterback said:

The jumping attribute is relevant to all players. The aerial reach only to goalkeepers. Therefore the average jumping rating (10) is used for players of average height (about 180 cm). Since goalkeepers generally are taller, the average aerial reach rating (10) is used for goalkeepers around 185 cm. So the average 180 cm tall goalkeeper would have 10 in jumping and perhaps 8 in aerial reach, the average 185 cm tall goalkeeper 12 in jumping and 10 in aerial reach and so on.

This is correct, except it's 186cm for keepers, not 185cm

This means that generally aerial ability will/should be 2-3 points lower than jumping, assuming the length of the keepers' arms are average.

It is indeed very confusing and the 2-3 point difference is not properly implemented in the database (check out Kasper Schmeichel, Alisson, Ederson, etc.) which underlines that it's difficult to grasp. Not sure how these numbers are set for newgens.

[Jack Joyce]

Sometimes the simplest possibility is the reality - in this case I think what you've found is some inconsistencies with how the data is being set.

I agree that you wouldn't expect jumping reach and aerial reach to be wildly different, although it may vary a little bit at times.

In the match engine, aerial reach is used to determine how high they can reach to claim crosses, but also how far they can reach to make a save.

I would suggest that you post on the research forums for players where you've found a large inconsistency, so that the researcher can have a look.

For newgens - typically the newgen attributes are balanced based on the starting DB to a certain extent, but if you're finding issues where these two attributes are vastly different then it'd be a bug to report in the bug forums.

 

 

[Tom 99]

Aerial Reach = 11: When your 190 cm Goalkeeper catches crosses. 190 cm is an average size for a goalkeeper, so 11 is an average value.

Jumping Reach = 16: When your 190 cm Goalkeeper goes to the opponent penalty area to score with a header. 190 cm is tall for an outfield player, so 16 is a high value.

 

The important value for a goalkeeper is aerial reach. So this value is highlighted and not the value for jumping reach.

Edited January 14 by Tom 99

[Aoyao]

ONE for stop cross

ONE for header ball

[fc.cadoni]

Jumping Reach 

How good a player is at reaching the ball in the air. It indicates the highest point an outfield player can reach with their head. It is not necessarily reflective of how tall a player is, but when considering jumping ability, it makes sense to consider the player’s height. For example, a player of 200+cm still possesses a high reach even if a poor jumper, and a player who measures in at 170cm struggles to compete at the same height due to the 30cm difference in height between the two.

Aerial Reach

The goalkeeper’s physical ability in aerial situations. Taller goalkeepers typically have a higher rating here as they are naturally pre-disposed to being able to reach areas shorter goalkeepers cannot, but there are exceptions. This attribute works in connection with several other goalkeeping attributes in order to determine proficiency in dealing with the numerous aerial situations they encounter during a match.

Command of Area

How well the goalkeeper takes charge of the penalty area and works with their defensive line. A goalkeeper who commands the entire box (i.e. has a high rating) is instinctive and looks to take charge of situations, especially coming for crosses (therefore working in tandem with Aerial Reach) or coming out for interceptions. Do note, however, that a high rating only determines whether or not they try, not that they succeed.