Popular Post Rashidi Posted December 15, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 15, 2020 Ancelotti’s 4321- a system rarely used in football. It was a system that only found success very late in Carlo Ancelotti’s tenure at AC Milan. It was used by Terry Venables with England, and was generally considered to be a defensive tactic. Essentially the system was called a Christmas tree because it looked like a Christmas tree. The system was rigid and solid, but ultimately difficult to pull off. It played with a back four, with two attacking fullbacks and a 3 man holding midfield which was anchored by a brilliant playmaker. This playmaker would dictate the game and string passes together. Players each side of him would have the primary responsibility of shielding and defending, the area when the fullbacks surged forward. When England used the same system, they failed, because they didn’t have a player who was capable enough to play that role in the middle. The players on the flanks were responsible for helping transitions. They were involved in breaking up play higher up the pitch and be heavily involved in the transitions. The playmaker would see a lot of the ball as he played a pivotal part in these transitions. The side midfielders were supposed to be exceptional tacklers, Gennaro Gattuso immortalised this role as part of the AC Milan team of the 80’s. If we are to replicate AC Milan, we also need to take a look at the role played by Massimo Ambrosini who played a creative role linking up play with duties to protect the left flank. When Looking at Milan’s 4321 I will be focusing on the system they used in 2007. The challenge really lies in setting up the attack. The key in their formation lay in how Clarence Seedorf played. The Dutchman played a dual role, adding an extra layer between the lines and dropping to protect the wing area. Milan’s shape was more of a hybrid 4411 out of possession. In possession Seedorf went inside setting Milan up in a 4231. Kaka generally played with a free rein in midfield, stringing passes from midfield out wide with Seedorf darting inside to turn into a No 10. Together with Inzaghi their movement would give defences a hard time. The system is primarily a defensive one, however when you check AC Milan’s performances you will notice a pattern. In the 2007/2008 season they scored 66 goals in a 38 match season for an average return of 1.7 goals a game. They conceded 38 goals in 38 matches. The following season they scored 70 goals and conceded 35, which was a marginal improvement. This is a formation that didn’t bang in a lot of goals, but they were joint top scorers in that season along with Inter Milan. I will not be attempting an Ancelotti 4321 because of several reasons. Firstly this was a system thrust on him because of the availability of players. Secondly this is Football Manager after all, and detailed replications aren’t entirely possible. Ancelotti was typically Italian in orientation, frequently favouring the 442 as it provided better defensive coverage. So this will be a Xmas tree formation sharing some elements of his 2007 system. The challenge when replicating this system is trying to find a right balance with realism and practicality. We do want to win matches after all in the game and this is why the choices of the roles may seem to be a compromise of sorts. I will focus on the attacking group of players. For the striker we want a role that drops deep, moves around and is comfortable holding up the ball. In attacking midfield we need to give the Kaka role freedom and we need one with creativity. The Seedorf role needs to play like a No 10, and here is where the challenge starts, we want a role that also helps protect the flank. And this is where people get caught up by role descriptions in the game. The Engache role is described as a playmaker that holds his position, and people assume it does not close down. It was modelled after Juan Roman Riquelme, a player who was not known for his defensive output. In FM21 however an enganche on the flanks will still try and protect it. Just look at this image. Whether this was intended or not, I don’t know, it could very well be a bug, albeit a nice one. Our Seedorf role has moved to the flanks to protect it when not in possession. The other thing we want to do is see the Clarence Seedorf role playing like a No 10, linking up play and creating chances, bringing others into the flow. And this is where the 2nd piece of our puzzle needs to be applied. This has to be one tactic that focuses play down the left flank ONLY. We want to encourage more play down that flank, and we want the Mezzala to use the Enganche as a hook so that he can release the wingback Here the Mezzala is looking to play the pass to the encircled enganche. The enganche moves forward to receive the pass. I am using him to get others into play and give the attack some fluidity I am focusing on the Seedorf role more than anything else for this replication because he was the important link in attack. Against Manchester United Kaka’s goal came off a run that Seedorf did between the channels going from the left to the right to head the ball back for Kaka who arrived behind him to score. This is one angle showing Seedorf’s diagonal run. Here is another angle showing him running to receive the pass before heading it for Kaka. And that is the challenge that I have to get right if I want a good replication. However this is not a simple task to do with the current roles. While the enganche is a great role to use this movement between the channels does not happen. This is one time a replication needs to make a decision on which way to go. I can’t use the Engache because he doesn’t do these kind of runs and I can’t use him as an archetypal No 10. That is because the advanced playmaker role is simply a poor choice for this system because it will slow down the transitions in the final third, something that did not characterise Milan. The ultimate question. What role will I give the Seedorf position? Or will i just come up with a simple Xmas tree? 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted December 15, 2020 Author Share Posted December 15, 2020 **Reserved** Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted December 15, 2020 Author Share Posted December 15, 2020 **Reserved** Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted December 15, 2020 Author Share Posted December 15, 2020 ** Reserved** Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bot Makel Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 The movements of the two attacking midfielders in Milan started from wide positions. So a 4-3-3 might still work. And if I think about Seedorf I remember the many goals from distance or from the edge of the area. For this solution I would say IFsu or IWsu for Seedorf and IFat for Kakà. If instead we want to revive the Christmas tree, Kakà SSat and Seedorf AMsu. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalokalitokalo Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 WPsu in the ML for Seedorf and SSat in the AMCR for Kaká? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted December 15, 2020 Author Share Posted December 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Bot Makel said: . If instead we want to revive the Christmas tree, Kakà SSat and Seedorf AMsu. This is why I love discussions, so many points of view. I remember one piece of play from the final, Kaka dropped deep into midfield to pick up a pass to play over the top. The freedom of movement he had made me so excited to watch him back then. @kalokalitokaloThe challenge for Seedorf will then be getting him into the penalty area quickly. Interested to know how you see it happening. Once again there are no wrong opinions only different points of view, and each could be correct depending on your original framework. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalokalitokalo Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Rashidi said: This is why I love discussions, so many points of view. I remember one piece of play from the final, Kaka dropped deep into midfield to pick up a pass to play over the top. The freedom of movement he had made me so excited to watch him back then. @kalokalitokaloThe challenge for Seedorf will then be getting him into the penalty area quickly. Interested to know how you see it happening. Once again there are no wrong opinions only different points of view, and each could be correct depending on your original framework. This is the heatmap from that UCL final: https://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/ucl/2006/1_playersheatmap.pdf For Seedorf: Edit to say that he is not that high in the pitch nor goes that often to the penalty area. Compared with Kaká's is a bit deeper: Edited December 15, 2020 by kalokalitokalo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzo_Francescoli Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 (edited) I remember that Milan team. Seedorf dropped to link play and Kaka attacked the box (while Inzaghi basically set camp there and barely moved). So I would go SS for Kaka, AM(su) for Seedorf (with move into channels and roam from position ticked). If you want to go with Mezzala for the Ambrosini role, that will have to be the hardest working mezzala in the world. That guy was one of the most boringly useful players I have ever seen. looking forward to see what you end up with. Edited December 15, 2020 by Enzo_Francescoli Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalokalitokalo Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 In terms of roles and duties I would go for something like this at first (note, never tried): Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted December 15, 2020 Author Share Posted December 15, 2020 I don't know if you remember the goal scored, where seedorf moved from inside left, ran centrally then did an outrageous header to assist the first goal. That's him encircled. I still remember the pass, it was deep, Seedorf ran onto that pass from an advanced position to arrive near the edge of the box to head the ball to the goal scorer. It's one of the reasons I find his role the hardest to fulfil. I see Kaka as a TQ, that way he can drop deep as much as he wants and still busts a gut to play a part in the attack. I will admit the creation itself is not a replication. The Seedorf role has always got me stumped. In the end it may just have to be a workable 4321 imho. In one version I created a Xmas tree formation but it had to forgo the Seedorf role and I had to look for someone to link plays up. For me its that lateral movement I really want to achieve. interested in what people think, I will test out various versions in the next few days, since its easily the most popular request i get. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalokalitokalo Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 @Rashidi I had to watch all Milan goals that season! lol Quite hard to make it realistic as sometimes Kaka was appearing in the center-left, others in the center-right, and same for Seedorf but arriving at the area a bit later... I would go for the 4-3-2-1 christmas tree. But the video gave me an idea, what about a deep christmas tree? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted December 15, 2020 Author Share Posted December 15, 2020 Let's evaluate this and see what the roles will do: TM(S) will be a focal point of attacks, sometimes depending on mentality and any other PIs chosen, the way its set up most likely only through the RGA. The right CM role looks solid with a BWM(D) but with a deep christmas tree and if i am not mistakenly its really offset which means a lot of territory to cover. This system needs to be tried out first though. The issue is the link up play cos there may be too many deep players leaving too big a gap in midfield it needs to be played to assessed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bot Makel Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 Seedorf's movement in action was not a constant in his game, as mentioned he was more of a link so I'd say the support task is the best. Also in the game it could happen that he does these movements, not often and adds PI's. If you wanted to recreate a precise replica you would have to go with asymmetrical formations. Like @Rashidi you did for the athletico. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbarros2 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 I guess WP (S) for Seedorf - if you go assymetrical - or AMCL (S) as it's the most customizable role in the AMC strata... Kaka either AM-A or SS? Really love these discussions, such great insights and different ways to see the game. Such golden age for this AC Milan team... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
equinøx Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 What about having "Seedorf" in advanced, forward slot? Like that: Might not be the best role though, to replicate IRL behaviour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRS192 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Oh man, this is perfect timing as I've been trying both Ancelotti's classic formations with Milan. The midfield three of Bennacer, Tonali and Kessie is a fantastic platform to build this sort of formation, though there is a lack of depth after those three. I was running it as a MEZ(S), DLP(D), CAR(S), which seemed to work quite well. In terms of the front three, I'm thinking Gilardino/Inzaghi's a DLF(A) as it seems to strike the right balance between dropping deep, and utilising Inzaghi's tendency of peeling off the last defender. Kaka seems a fairly straightforward Trequartista for me. Seedorf is trickier, I'm thinking an AM(S) role, with perhaps 'Get Further Forward' and 'Moves into Channels'? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
josel15 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 I always saw Seedorf as a Wide Playmaker on support on the left Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
karanhsingh Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 I've always had a soft spot for this formation. Would be great to see it replicated on the game! Just caught up with this article: https://www.dreamteamfc.com/c/news-gossip/137347/remembering-milan-christmas-formation/ I would probably think of something like this: GK CWB(a) CB(d) BPD(d) WB(s) BWM(d) Reg/RPM Vol(s) AP(a) Mez(s/a) AF(a) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbarros2 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Greetings. IDK if it's against the forum rules but I will link to a topic (on this very forum) about an old thread I recently remembered: In this sort of replication the christmas tree formation used Kaka and Rui Costa as AMC's and Seedorf played in the Ambrosini role... Nevertheless, the WM-S is a customizable role and was used in here to a great effect. I would definitely considered adding up WM-S to my previous guesses. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevaggel Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Nice to see a classic and successful formation being replicated for FM21, last time i tried to replicate it we had sliders in the tactic creation.... Always had in my mind as 41311 'holy cross' and not a typical Xmas tree so i can't wait to see how this project will evolve. This is how i had the positions (not role/duties) in my mind: 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted December 18, 2020 Author Share Posted December 18, 2020 Just a quick update before i add to this post. This morning the patch was released, so I wanted to see if it would work the way I envisioned. In our latest match, a bruising encounter in a cup match, the assumption that the DLP be critical was borne out. In that match for the first 50 mins or so I had the wrong player there, we did fall l a goal behind forcing me to change players around. That resulted in slightly better passes and movement off the ball. We also picked up a series of yellow cards early down the right flank because the player there wasn't entirely suited to being a BWM. Swapping players around fixed that issue. I have attached a pkm if anyone is interested because these are more unsightly I am playing with very aggressive wingbacks which puts this system at a lot of risk, but i want it to encapsulate a certain reckless style, more conservative options would probably remove the underlap or even play with FB(A) Torino v Brescia Xmas tree.pkm 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted December 18, 2020 Author Share Posted December 18, 2020 On 16/12/2020 at 01:28, Bot Makel said: Seedorf's movement in action was not a constant in his game, as mentioned he was more of a link so I'd say the support task is the best. Also in the game it could happen that he does these movements, not often and adds PI's. If you wanted to recreate a precise replica you would have to go with asymmetrical formations. Like @Rashidi you did for the athletico. Yeah but asymmetric systems can be a real headache for those not used to it, I will go for something more that may be a bit less like the real system but hopefully captures the essence of the style 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted December 18, 2020 Author Share Posted December 18, 2020 Here is a pkm of a match where I played against Cagliari who are 4th on the table and have been particularly difficult side to play when they are at home. They line up in a 4141DM. In this game I had a fair bit of game management, I started the match with the two wingbacks as FB(S), we drew a yellow card early so i took the team off hard tackling. Once the opposition picked up 2 yellow cards, I turned my fullbacks to Wingbacks(A) and played like normal without the hard tackling. The substitution strategy had to be right as well. My first yellow card was for the central DLP. My second and third subs were to bring on players who played in key positions that needed legs to keep moving. I will do a complete write up of the tactic tomorrow. It isn't entirely an AC Milan replication, but it is something that I feel could work, provided the manager pays attention to on field events. Its how I like to play. Cagliari v Torino.pkm 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingjericho Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 What's the effect of underlaps/overlaps when there are no wide midfielders? Does it affect the wider central mids? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
josel15 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, kingjericho said: What's the effect of underlaps/overlaps when there are no wide midfielders? Does it affect the wider central mids? Increasing the wing backs mentality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevaggel Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, josel15 said: Increasing the wing backs mentality. Not just that, hover your mouse pointer and read the pop-up description... you may be amazed edit: here is for Underlap Edited December 18, 2020 by kevaggel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flußkrebs Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 So after watching the very recent Rio Ferdinand and Carlo Ancelotti BT sport interview (it's on Youtube if you want to watch it, think it was uploaded a couple of weeks ago), Ancelotti discusses the "Christmas Tree" final. He's absolutely adamant that defensively the formation was a normal 442. And it was in attack where Seedorf moved inwards, Gattuso stayed narrow and reserved, and the full backs bombed forward. With that in mind, I decided to try a little replication. I'm using my old Udinese testing date (away to Inter) so bear that in mind. The player pool I used is relatively suitable, except for a Wide Right Midfielder who has the attributes of a BWM- I had to play Coulibaly out of position. I've played the match twice now, with two slightly different versions of the tactic. My aims were: 1) To replicate the defensive 442 shape 2) To replicate the attacking 4321 shape 3) To try and do this without using assymetrical formations (I will come back to this) Now, while a situational 442 defensive shape can be achieved without setting up the tactic in that way, it doesn't really meet the requirements imo. For example, if you set it up as a 4321, of course the right wide midfielder will cover the flank if playing as a CAR or as a BWM and a player is running down that way. So it might "function" sometimes as a 442. But the settled mid block when under pressure will not be a 442, unless that is the shape created in the tactic creator. And this is important because at the heart of Ancelotti's tactical thought is that Sacchi 442. He originally thought that a very strict 442 was the ideal shape, and since Juventus has moved to the idea that 442 is the ideal defensive/pressing shape (a thought shared with many modern managers- e.g. Pep, Mourinho) and the offensive shape can be different. Look at how Everton sometimes function- Richarlison will join the press with DCL up top and Sigurddson/Gomes will cover the left flank. Although I don't think Ancelotti is 100% able to implement this style with Everton's current personnel. He also did the same with Real Madrid the year he won the CL final. 433 in attack/on paper Ronaldo-Benzema-Bale with Di Maria-Alonso (Khedira in the final)-Modric behind. But defensively/as they pressed, it was a 442 with Ronaldo-Benzema up top, and Di Maria-Alonso-Modric-Bale behind. Anyway, that's absolutely necessary imo- 442 block/pressing structure, 4321 in attack. Here's the first version: It's quite simple: the idea is that the LCM, RCM and RM form a 3 in possession and the IW and TQ have relatively free roles. But it should defend in a 4411 shape. To achieve this without asymmetry we've had to use quite a few PIs: IWa: take more risks, cross less often, roam from position, sit narrower- I am not sure whether RFP is necessary here. BWMs: sit wider WMs: cross less often, dribble less, hold position, sit narrower, tackle harder. To create a pseudo-wide ball winner. I'm not super happy with the full set of TIs. Although tighter marking would make sense in how Ancelotti plays (tight Sacchi zonal marking) it seemed to just mean the wide midfielders would often man mark the opposition full backs in build up- a match engine issue? Below are two examples of this- the IW was getting forward perhaps a little too much, but in attack it was a clear 4-3 for the back 7. Attack: Defend- clear 4411 shape shifted towards the ball carrier. We lost 3-1 but we conceded one penalty and the total xG battle was 2.2-2.3 in our favour. So not too bad. Second version I wasn't happy with the right midfielder, who despite my PIs was bombing on a little too much for my liking. I upped the mentality to attacking and changed the midfielders to all be defensive. Same PIs I think. I'm not happy with the centre-forward role. In this tactic, the PF-A was too distant, but using a CF-A caused the player to roam too much. Not sure on this one. Here's the attacking shape (defensive shape same as before). Now the issue is that if I left the IW on attack with the boost in mentality it would be overkill and he would live in the box. But as an IWs he seemed to not really cut inside and sit as a 10 as much as I want. Match finished 1-0 to us and was much tighter, xG was about 0.7-0.8 I think. The good things about both these tactics: 1) two banks of 4 in defense 2) DLP has most touches and passes by far, showing his centrality. The other centre mid, full backs and the right sided mid are all in the second tier, showing the build up is working as intended. 3) TQ getting some shots off. 4) The IW (especially in the first version of the tactic) is behaving very well- lots of lateral movement, defending on the left hand side, getting in the box (in the 2 games he scored 1 and assisted 1) The negatives: 1) The TQ is not sitting in the right hand channel at all. 2) The pressing shape is entirely as a 4411, with the TQ far too deep. Because the TQ presses less and is in the AM slot he naturally does not sit alongside the striker. 3) The goals/chances haven't been particularly great. I think this can be achieved by tinkering with TIs- for now I just want to try and get the shapes right. 4) Striker not getting good chances/service. Solutions to these problems: To try and get that 2 10s behind the 1 striker shape, I think asymmetry is the best option. Move the TQ into the right hand channel? To get the pressing/defensive shape to be a 442 I think there are two options- move the TQ up to sit alongside the striker in a true 442, possibly off centred so the shape is: --------CF--TQ IW-CM-DLP-WM Or change the TQ role into an AM and add appropriate PIs to get them to press more/behave like a TQ. You'd lose some of the ball magnetism and lateral movement though. Again possibly off centred. Moving the Kaka player to the right hand side would a) move him into the right hand channel and b) create more space for the IW to move into the left hand channel. Now I think moving to two up top would potentially get the right shape. However, I don't think the Kaka player can be a TQ alongside a striker. A TQ in the front line would have too high a mentality and would lead the line. So maybe a F9 or DLF with some PIs. I will explore this. PS. Anyone else notice keepers ignoring PoD and distribute to centre back instructions (esp on higher mentality) unless specifically given a short kick/roll out distribution style? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoSpecialOne Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Have you considered trying out a SS in the AM slot? Although I suspect if it is still central instead off right off center, will have the same issues. 1 hour ago, Flußkrebs said: PS. Anyone else notice keepers ignoring PoD and distribute to centre back instructions (esp on higher mentality) unless specifically given a short kick/roll out distribution style? This is something I've noticed the last day or two. Keeper frequently goes for more longer, more direct options (tactic in question is balanced mentality) despite distribution set to full backs & centerbacks + play out of defense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flußkrebs Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, NotSoSpecialOne said: Have you considered trying out a SS in the AM slot? Although I suspect if it is still central instead off right off center, will have the same issues. This is something I've noticed the last day or two. Keeper frequently goes for more longer, more direct options (tactic in question is balanced mentality) despite distribution set to full backs & centerbacks + play out of defense. I've been playing LLM so assumed that it might have been because my keeper lacks the decisions or something like that. But switched to a top team for this experiment and noticed the exact same behaviour. Don't think it's due to the new patch btw, as I was noticing it last week. Edited December 20, 2020 by Flußkrebs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paracoolo Posted March 15, 2023 Share Posted March 15, 2023 On 20/12/2020 at 09:00, Flußkrebs said: So after watching the very recent Rio Ferdinand and Carlo Ancelotti BT sport interview (it's on Youtube if you want to watch it, think it was uploaded a couple of weeks ago), Ancelotti discusses the "Christmas Tree" final. He's absolutely adamant that defensively the formation was a normal 442. And it was in attack where Seedorf moved inwards, Gattuso stayed narrow and reserved, and the full backs bombed forward. With that in mind, I decided to try a little replication. I'm using my old Udinese testing date (away to Inter) so bear that in mind. The player pool I used is relatively suitable, except for a Wide Right Midfielder who has the attributes of a BWM- I had to play Coulibaly out of position. I've played the match twice now, with two slightly different versions of the tactic. My aims were: 1) To replicate the defensive 442 shape 2) To replicate the attacking 4321 shape 3) To try and do this without using assymetrical formations (I will come back to this) Now, while a situational 442 defensive shape can be achieved without setting up the tactic in that way, it doesn't really meet the requirements imo. For example, if you set it up as a 4321, of course the right wide midfielder will cover the flank if playing as a CAR or as a BWM and a player is running down that way. So it might "function" sometimes as a 442. But the settled mid block when under pressure will not be a 442, unless that is the shape created in the tactic creator. And this is important because at the heart of Ancelotti's tactical thought is that Sacchi 442. He originally thought that a very strict 442 was the ideal shape, and since Juventus has moved to the idea that 442 is the ideal defensive/pressing shape (a thought shared with many modern managers- e.g. Pep, Mourinho) and the offensive shape can be different. Look at how Everton sometimes function- Richarlison will join the press with DCL up top and Sigurddson/Gomes will cover the left flank. Although I don't think Ancelotti is 100% able to implement this style with Everton's current personnel. He also did the same with Real Madrid the year he won the CL final. 433 in attack/on paper Ronaldo-Benzema-Bale with Di Maria-Alonso (Khedira in the final)-Modric behind. But defensively/as they pressed, it was a 442 with Ronaldo-Benzema up top, and Di Maria-Alonso-Modric-Bale behind. Anyway, that's absolutely necessary imo- 442 block/pressing structure, 4321 in attack. Here's the first version: It's quite simple: the idea is that the LCM, RCM and RM form a 3 in possession and the IW and TQ have relatively free roles. But it should defend in a 4411 shape. To achieve this without asymmetry we've had to use quite a few PIs: IWa: take more risks, cross less often, roam from position, sit narrower- I am not sure whether RFP is necessary here. BWMs: sit wider WMs: cross less often, dribble less, hold position, sit narrower, tackle harder. To create a pseudo-wide ball winner. I'm not super happy with the full set of TIs. Although tighter marking would make sense in how Ancelotti plays (tight Sacchi zonal marking) it seemed to just mean the wide midfielders would often man mark the opposition full backs in build up- a match engine issue? Below are two examples of this- the IW was getting forward perhaps a little too much, but in attack it was a clear 4-3 for the back 7. Attack: Defend- clear 4411 shape shifted towards the ball carrier. We lost 3-1 but we conceded one penalty and the total xG battle was 2.2-2.3 in our favour. So not too bad. Second version I wasn't happy with the right midfielder, who despite my PIs was bombing on a little too much for my liking. I upped the mentality to attacking and changed the midfielders to all be defensive. Same PIs I think. I'm not happy with the centre-forward role. In this tactic, the PF-A was too distant, but using a CF-A caused the player to roam too much. Not sure on this one. Here's the attacking shape (defensive shape same as before). Now the issue is that if I left the IW on attack with the boost in mentality it would be overkill and he would live in the box. But as an IWs he seemed to not really cut inside and sit as a 10 as much as I want. Match finished 1-0 to us and was much tighter, xG was about 0.7-0.8 I think. The good things about both these tactics: 1) two banks of 4 in defense 2) DLP has most touches and passes by far, showing his centrality. The other centre mid, full backs and the right sided mid are all in the second tier, showing the build up is working as intended. 3) TQ getting some shots off. 4) The IW (especially in the first version of the tactic) is behaving very well- lots of lateral movement, defending on the left hand side, getting in the box (in the 2 games he scored 1 and assisted 1) The negatives: 1) The TQ is not sitting in the right hand channel at all. 2) The pressing shape is entirely as a 4411, with the TQ far too deep. Because the TQ presses less and is in the AM slot he naturally does not sit alongside the striker. 3) The goals/chances haven't been particularly great. I think this can be achieved by tinkering with TIs- for now I just want to try and get the shapes right. 4) Striker not getting good chances/service. Solutions to these problems: To try and get that 2 10s behind the 1 striker shape, I think asymmetry is the best option. Move the TQ into the right hand channel? To get the pressing/defensive shape to be a 442 I think there are two options- move the TQ up to sit alongside the striker in a true 442, possibly off centred so the shape is: --------CF--TQ IW-CM-DLP-WM Or change the TQ role into an AM and add appropriate PIs to get them to press more/behave like a TQ. You'd lose some of the ball magnetism and lateral movement though. Again possibly off centred. Moving the Kaka player to the right hand side would a) move him into the right hand channel and b) create more space for the IW to move into the left hand channel. Now I think moving to two up top would potentially get the right shape. However, I don't think the Kaka player can be a TQ alongside a striker. A TQ in the front line would have too high a mentality and would lead the line. So maybe a F9 or DLF with some PIs. I will explore this. PS. Anyone else notice keepers ignoring PoD and distribute to centre back instructions (esp on higher mentality) unless specifically given a short kick/roll out distribution style? Im trying something similar but with the real roles and duties of the players: ( Regista for Pirlo per example, Inzaghi Poacher etc.) SO yeah this is what im going with since im emulating their defensive shape against UTD like Ancelotti said, they played 442 defensively so im looking to see if Its possible to achieve that same thing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paracoolo Posted March 15, 2023 Share Posted March 15, 2023 I've changed the formation by putting the WM-DE to BWM-DE on LCM position and added Stay Wider instruction because in possesssion ,the BWM was too wide and sometimes went up too much. 00 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paracoolo Posted March 15, 2023 Share Posted March 15, 2023 Just now, paracoolo said: I've changed the formation by putting the WM-DE to BWM-DE on LCM position and added Stay Wider instruction because in possesssion ,the BWM was too wide and sometimes went up too much. 00 This is the instruction for the " Seedorf Role" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceefax the cat Posted March 26, 2023 Share Posted March 26, 2023 I've tried to do all this Ancelotti stuff. The problem is always basically that your defensive shape should be a Sacchi-like 4-4-2, but it's hard to represent the subsequent attacking positional shifts in FM. Especially Gattuso who's a narrow, ballwinning WM on the right and Seedorf who's a WP(a) on the left. It's also hard to get Pirlo to do his thing without leaving your defence a bit exposed. I feel like the FM regista is a bit too gung-ho, while the DLP(d) has this tendency to defend too deep and end up on the toes of the defence. A lot of Ancelotti sides do this and are similarly hard to simulate in FM. His Real Madrid defending as 4-4-2 but attacking as 4-3-3 is another one, but then you have a problem getting your striker to go wide enough and, once again, one of your wingers to tuck in narrowly enough and become almost a genuine MC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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