Do players have too many attributes?

[Ampalaea4]

@SloakI dont think that the thread here says that some attributes are not impactful but rather that you need many attribute modifiers for each situation. For a player to be in right place doing the right thing  as you say, means a combination of Anticipation, positioning, work rate, teamwork, concentration... 

[baris28]

3 saat önce, Sloak said:

I think a big problem may be how players view the game here. As most players play on at least comprehensive highlights, you’re going to miss parts of the match. 

I think I remember many posts about previous 2 versions people saying engine was great until final third. Very glad this version is much better.

 

Previously  those mental, technique were hard to notice about how goals scored.

Edited December 25, 2020 by baris28

[Overmars]

I like the variety of attributes because it produces more varied players. The problem to me, though, is that it's really hard to get the data right when it is this detailed. I watch a lot of EPL, but I'd struggle mightily to rate players in all of these categories. I think most real world scouts and casual fans aren't able to get this granular when assessing players. Even just acceleration vs. pace is something beyond most of us. I know Salah is fast, but does he have better acceleration or pace? How's his balance? Is it better than Aubameyang's? Put them on a balance beam or something and I might be able to tell, but from watching games, that's just never going to be something we can properly rate. Nevertheless, FM has Salah with much higher balance than Aubameyang.

These are prominent players we see a lot, but the data is already a bit suspect. What about players further down the pyramid? You know those players with mostly 10-12 ratings for every attribute? Do we really think anyone in the world is perfectly middle of the road for all of these? Most of the data in the FM database is probably junk because it's so much more detailed than any real world assessment could be.

[baris28]

But  AI Messi didn't score less from less data in previous versions. It was rather a problem in match engine. I'm not convinced about bad data or poorly researched  attributes causing  problem.

Edited December 26, 2020 by baris28

[enigmatic]

On 22/12/2020 at 10:55, swansongs said:

Could definitely lose a few of the mental attributes with only minor changes to some definitions.

Specifically I would remove Decisions entirely, and whittle down the Aggression/Workrate/Determination/Concentration/Teamwork group into something more streamlined.

Yeah, Decisions is the prime candidate for removal. Every mental attribute is about a player's decision making, and also I know what the others actually make players likely to do. It's also disproportionately highly weighted, and can result in some really odd player profiles (players whose mental attributes imply they are poor in every aspect of their movement, reading of the game and focus but also really good at decision making)

And goalkeepers are the perfect example of questionable attribute mix. Goalkeepers have several visible attributes for things which really aren't relevant to goalkeeping (off the ball, flair, work rate) and yet no single attribute dedicated to one of their core functions of saving a shot from distance (I presume these non-reflex saves are  function of Reflexes and some mental abilities they share with outfield players). Perhaps the best argument for 'too many attributes' is even SI seem to lose track of some of them: can't think of any other good reason why Jumping Reach is both CA-weighted for keepers and something they keep telling forum users only applies to their ability to win headers.

On 23/12/2020 at 03:43, Xavier Lukhas said:

To be honest and while it's a different can of worms, players in FM struggle to use their weaker foot even when it makes sense to do so. Obviously not every two footed player is like Ousmane Dembelé who uses more or less both feet equally (something like 20/20 for his left and 19/ for his right), but you have players like C. Ronaldo who hardly uses his weaker foot in FM while IRL and even if not as accurate, he can shoot quite hard with it if the opportunity arises. Coupled with the high cost of having both feet, I've noticed that if you play long enough saves a lot of world-class regen/newgen players are way better served by having an extra couple of points in basically any important attribute for their role than having an even reasonable second foot, nevermind having both feet. I'd even say that for an attacking player, even inverted, being able to use only one foot (à la Robben) is completely worth it if it means your Acceleration and Pace go from a respectable 16 or 17 to an untouchable 19 or 20.

In other words, weak foot training is basically not worth it most of the time, and IME most players hardly take advantage of their "strong" second foot in the ME, except if they're players like O. Dembelé with above 18 with either foot. It's more of a crutch if there's really no other option but to use the weaker foot. I've actually messed with those values as an experiment on wide players: there's a big gap in behaviour when they're under and above 18; in FM20 the 3D player almost looks confused when he's able to perfectly use both feet! 18 is one of the threshold numbers in FM; for example that's where you go from Accomplished to Natural in a position, from Strong to Very Strong on you weak foot. Maybe I just don't see it, but being very one footed is nowhere near the issue it could (should?) be; almost an advantage if the CA is used in more useful attributes.

I've digressed a lot now

I'd disagree with most of this. Players that choose to use their weaker foot and players the AI doesn't choose to show onto it tend to have massively better options and be much more effective dribblers even if they don't use the weaker foot that much,  and its one of the most visible behavioural differences in the ME. The difference between a player that has the footedness to attempt a certain pass and a player who doesn't is much bigger than small differences in percentage chance of executing (on their stronger foot), and same goes for a dribbler who can go both ways vs a dribbler with higher attributes who will crab across the pitch where his one footedness takes him. I wouldnt be surprised to find there are other nonlinearities, and there are certain positions which just aren't pressured enough by opponents for it to make much difference, but in general I expect my attacking players to get more from extra points on a weaker foot than the same points on, say, Decisions.

[swansongs]

3 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Yeah, Decisions is the prime candidate for removal. Every mental attribute is about a player's decision making, and also I know what the others actually make players likely to do. It's also disproportionately highly weighted, and can result in some really odd player profiles (players whose mental attributes imply they are poor in every aspect of their movement, reading of the game and focus but also really good at decision making)

And goalkeepers are the perfect example of questionable attribute mix. Goalkeepers have several visible attributes for things which really aren't relevant to goalkeeping (off the ball, flair, work rate) and yet no single attribute dedicated to one of their core functions of saving a shot from distance (I presume these non-reflex saves are  function of Reflexes and some mental abilities they share with outfield players). Perhaps the best argument for 'too many attributes' is even SI seem to lose track of some of them: can't think of any other good reason why Jumping Reach is both CA-weighted for keepers and something they keep telling forum users only applies to their ability to win headers.

Agility is how far a goalkeeper is able to dive so will be the primary factor in whether a goalkeeper can save a shot from distance where he's likely to have enough time to see and judge the flight of it. Anticipation, Positioning and Concentration will help but the MotD highlight reel saves are going to be very Agility-dependent.

[enigmatic]

2 hours ago, swansongs said:

Agility is how far a goalkeeper is able to dive so will be the primary factor in whether a goalkeeper can save a shot from distance where he's likely to have enough time to see and judge the flight of it. Anticipation, Positioning and Concentration will help but the MotD highlight reel saves are going to be very Agility-dependent.

Thanks. I half thought that, but then I half thought agility probably had less effect than it sounds because it's shared with outfield players, and declines to low values earlier than keepers are supposed to be 'past it'. The classic FM attribute conundrum.

I remember when there was an attribute called 'shot stopping' , although admittedly it was useless because most keepers had 20...

[swansongs]

20 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Thanks. I half thought that, but then I half thought agility probably had less effect than it sounds because it's shared with outfield players, and declines to low values earlier than keepers are supposed to be 'past it'. The classic FM attribute conundrum.

I remember when there was an attribute called 'shot stopping' , although admittedly it was useless because most keepers had 20...

Agility should really be named something different for goalkeepers to distinguish it from the outfield version more clearly.

With only a few exceptions "he's a good shot-stopper" has always been more back-handed than a genuine compliment. 

Edited December 26, 2020 by swansongs

[enigmatic]

22 minutes ago, swansongs said:

With only a few exceptions "he's a good shot-stopper" has always been more back-handed than a genuine compliment. 

True, though IIRC 20 Handling and Rushing Out were common too, and that was it

Now it's more a minimum requirement which disappears from most keepers in their prime, and I still find SI's selection of the other stuff that contributes equally to a player's goalkeeping ability bizarre. At least the tooltips now say Kicking is accuracy and not just distance...