Help improving the involvement of IF (433)

[Paulz]

Hey, I've created a 433 with Atletico Madrid and generally things are going ok. But, I'm not overly happy with the involvement of my IF (Felix), he tends not to get anything over a 7 and I don't feel he is contributing as much as he should be based on his stats.

 

I wondered if there was anything obvious that I am missing with my tactic that would explain his lack of involvement. I was thinking about changing him to an IW(A) to see if that helps, while changing the Mez and WB to Support. Hopefully these roles and duties make sense, but I'm open to other suggestions. Defensively I'm doing ok, and my CF is now starting to score more which was my hope.

 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Other than the ball playing defender being on the same side as the DLP, the roles look good to me.

In this set up, I would expect the IF(Su) to be a creator first and goal scorer second, with the mezzala and the DLF being the primary goal threats. How does he fare in that regard? Keeping in mind that you'd probably want to not only consider assists, but how (or if) he is creating space for your mezzala to exploit (this is one of the reasons we can't rely solely on ratings IMO.. because ratings don't factor in things like this!). How is the Mez performing?

And because I haven't thrown enough questions at you already (  ), what sort of contribution or role do you have in mind for the player?

[Paulz]

I would prefer the ball playing defender to be on the other side but he is right footed and the other CB left footed, and Saul (Mez) is left footed and Koke (DLP) right footed which is why I think its better for them to also be the sies they are. I'm thinking of either both CBs being BPD or neither. 

 The Mez is doing well, scoring and creating chances. For the IF I was hoping he would be actually scoring more goals, or at least looking like he was going to.

[nidhar.ram]

11 hours ago, Paulz said:

Hey, I've created a 433 with Atletico Madrid and generally things are going ok. But, I'm not overly happy with the involvement of my IF (Felix), he tends not to get anything over a 7 and I don't feel he is contributing as much as he should be based on his stats.

 

I wondered if there was anything obvious that I am missing with my tactic that would explain his lack of involvement. I was thinking about changing him to an IW(A) to see if that helps, while changing the Mez and WB to Support. Hopefully these roles and duties make sense, but I'm open to other suggestions. Defensively I'm doing ok, and my CF is now starting to score more which was my hope.

 

 

I am no tactical expert but here are some of my thoughts..

If you want Felix to score goals, then you need him to attack the box aggressively. An IF(A) would help achieve that. That would mean Saul need to be on Mez (S) to play those balls to Felix and  left WB(S) for cutbacks to the near post. It would be beneficial if  your DLP(S) has the trait Switch ball to other flank. Also, I am not sure the RB need to that aggressive; a FB(A) might suffice. You still want IW(S) getting the ball driving through the center and playing those through balls.

To summarize, you set-up call look something like this.

 

                                       DLF(A)/ CF(S)

           IF(A)                                                                 IW(S)

 

                      MEZ(S)                                 DLP(S)

                                            DM(D)

 

           WB(S)        CD(D)                      CD(D)            FB(A)

                                             SK(D)

 

TI's wise, IMO few of those could be removed and let the players decide the best action. Focus play, higher tempo and width might not be necessary. they can be used situationally depending on the opposition. 

You are already playing out of defense and  instructing your GK to specially distribute to certain positions is also not necessary.

The other thing to keep in mind is the way you defend. Counter press is good but Felix has low work rate, team work and stamina. He is going to give up pressing and tracking back rather quickly. Lodi behind him also has low work rate and teamwork.

Your out of possession instructions coupled with Counter press might leave your left flank completely open for counter attacks IMHO. 

  

[Paulz]

Thanks for the feedback! They are all good points and looking at the other options for IF and IW they all have quite low work rate and team work. I'm thinking for the In transition setting maybe just go with regroup. 

I have seen in a number of my games that the opposition do get more chances when they attack down my left than the right, so I think you're right on the left flank being too open. I've made some changes and will play a few games to see how it goes

[crusadertsar]

I don't see Felix as an ideal IF at all. He is more of a creator type. You are better off playing him centrally as a False9 or Trequartista in 433. Or as an attacking type of AMC role in 4-2-3-1.

Generally for your IF you want someone with very good acceleration, pace, off the ball, composure, finishing and dribbling. 

While Felix can probably do all that, he is not the fastest and is wasted in a purely attacking role.

Anyway that's my opinion, take it as you wish.

[nidhar.ram]

Absolutely agree. Felix in my team would be a Treq all day long and would probably build by team around him.

The guy is an absolute genius in playmaking and can chip in with occasional crucial goals for his team.  

[Paulz]

I'm not sure about the best midfield setup below him but what are your thoughts on something like this with Felix as the TQ in a 433:

I was thinking about a 4411 as well with Felix behind the striker:

[crusadertsar]

16 minutes ago, Paulz said:

I'm not sure about the best midfield setup below him but what are your thoughts on something like this with Felix as the TQ in a 433:

I was thinking about a 4411 as well with Felix behind the striker:

Much better.  Gives Felix much more space to create.

Edited December 28, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Paulz]

Great! I will give them a go and see how things develop. Looking at the 433 now I was wondering about changing Koke to a Mez rather than BBM as I was concerned that there may not be enough other scoring options

[nidhar.ram]

18 hours ago, Paulz said:

Great! I will give them a go and see how things develop. Looking at the 433 now I was wondering about changing Koke to a Mez rather than BBM as I was concerned that there may not be enough other scoring options

@crusadertsar - Please correct me if I am wrong with my comments..

In the 433 tactic, I am worried possession might be sterile with no bite especially with balanced mentality. Agree that Felix will have lot of space to weave his magic, but he doesn't have a lot of players making runs for him to play through balls. Only Lemar form the right is aggressively attacking the box and Koke most often is arriving late and the same for Lodi as WB(A). There is also a possibility that Felix be bypassed by Saul as he is more in open space in the match. Your thoughts?

In the 4231 tactic, Suarez needs to attack the box. there is no point in him dropping into the space which Felix occupies. As with the 433, the tactic lacks penetration.

 

[crusadertsar]

52 minutes ago, nidhar.ram said:

@crusadertsar - Please correct me if I am wrong with my comments..

In the 433 tactic, I am worried possession might be sterile with no bite especially with balanced mentality. Agree that Felix will have lot of space to weave his magic, but he doesn't have a lot of players making runs for him to play through balls. Only Lemar form the right is aggressively attacking the box and Koke most often is arriving late and the same for Lodi as WB(A). There is also a possibility that Felix be bypassed by Saul as he is more in open space in the match. Your thoughts?

In the 4231 tactic, Suarez needs to attack the box. there is no point in him dropping into the space which Felix occupies. As with the 433, the tactic lacks penetration.

 

Unfortunately the nature of possession-focused 4-3-3 is that it can often become stale and have difficulty penetrating parked bus defences. However from the role set-up alone there are a few things we can do to amend this. For instance, it's good that there's is one runner coming from wingback strata but it would be even better to add another one in midfield. I would actually use a combo of Carrilero and Mezzala on attack there. I'm not a fan of using playmakers in midfield in such formations as they tend to slow down the tempo too much . To achieve possession with intent you really want crisp short passes and one-twos.

Also there's probably a way to make Suarez-Felix combo work in 4-2-3-1. I would play Felix as False9 with Suarez playing deeper as Shadow Striker.

PS: However if you choose Mezzala on Attack duty, I would switch IF to Support if he is on the same side as Mezzala. And maybe even add underlap instruction to that side to help make IF more supportive and help with central build-up.

Edited December 29, 2020 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

Essentially you want Felix to be your only playmaker up top playing as either False9 or Treq. This was all attacks and plays will be channeled through him. It will also improve the vertical passing in the tactic.

Edited December 29, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Paulz]

Something like this for the 433? I used the previous set up in a couple of games and I wasn't happy with it, Felix seemed much too isolated and wasn't getting involved:

 

 

[Paulz]

For the 4411 I have this but I'm not convinced that the midfield is the best setup, although I haven't tried it yet

Edited December 29, 2020 by Paulz

[crusadertsar]

39 minutes ago, Paulz said:

Something like this for the 433? I used the previous set up in a couple of games and I wasn't happy with it, Felix seemed much too isolated and wasn't getting involved:

 

 

If you are playing on Positive team mentality then I would maybe switch Felix to a less aggressive role like False9 and switch the right IF into IW(A). Or just bring team mentality down to Balanced if you want to keep him as a Trequartista.

[nidhar.ram]

12 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Unfortunately the nature of possession-focused 4-3-3 is that it can often become stale and have difficulty penetrating parked bus defences. However from the role set-up alone there are a few things we can do to amend this. For instance, it's good that there's is one runner coming from wingback strata but it would be even better to add another one in midfield. I would actually use a combo of Carrilero and Mezzala on attack there. I'm not a fan of using playmakers in midfield in such formations as they tend to slow down the tempo too much . To achieve possession with intent you really want crisp short passes and one-twos.

Also there's probably a way to make Suarez-Felix combo work in 4-2-3-1. I would play Felix as False9 with Suarez playing deeper as Shadow Striker.

PS: However if you choose Mezzala on Attack duty, I would switch IF to Support if he is on the same side as Mezzala. And maybe even add underlap instruction to that side to help make IF more supportive and help with central build-up.

 

Absolutely agree. Your statement about the playmakers are correct.

There are two ways to look at. Play on higher mentality, so that playmakers are forced to make quicker decisions (mental attributes and PPM's are key here) or playing on a lower mentality with non-playmaking roles. It doesn't make any sense to have a playmaker with a cautious mentality anyway.

A CM(S) is often overlooked. With the right attributes and PPM's, that role can function as a playmaker ( DLP or AP), an aggressive runner ( Mez) or later runner (Car, BBM).

[Paulz]

I'm going to try changing the role of Koke to a CM(S), I've been looking at a few recent games and I'm still not happy with how Felix is playing as a F9. I just beat Inter 1-0 which was great but the goal was a penalty and looking at the match stats he still isn't getting as involved as I would hope. Possibly with Inter's 3 man defence he didn't have the space to work in. One change I will make is to take Counter off, when watching games I think we're breaking and he isn't getting involved in the attack as Correa, Lemar and Carrasco are all quicker than him. I will try Hold Shape and see if he becomes more involved in the next few games. 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Paulz

[nidhar.ram]

51 minutes ago, Paulz said:

I'm going to try changing the role of Koke to a CM(S), I've been looking at a few recent games and I'm still not happy with how Felix is playing as a F9. I just beat Inter 1-0 which was great but the goal was a penalty and looking at the match stats he still isn't getting as involved as I would hope. Possibly with Inter's 3 man defence he didn't have the space to work in. One change I will make is to take Counter off, when watching games I think we're breaking and he isn't getting involved in the attack as Correa, Lemar and Carrasco are all quicker than him. I will try Hold Shape and see if he becomes more involved in the next few games. 

 

 

 

You can check the pass combinations to see how your progress up the field.

Looking at the passing stats, it's good Llorente is seeing a lot of the ball, that means much of the play goes through your pivot. And because Llorente has the trait "Switch ball to wide areas" your wing backs are receiving a lot of the passes from him. And since you use aggressive wingbacks, they will bypass the midfield and drive to the byline for crosses only to be met by Inter's 3 man defence aginst 5'8" Felix . 15 crosses from your wing backs and merely few met by your players.

Understanding the opposition tactical set-up is crucial in this version of the game which means the tactical elements need tweaks on per game basis and also during the game. The philosophy will still remain the same but how your penetrate your opponents will vary.

Hope I make sense. 

[Paulz]

Thanks - to see pass combinations is that available under Match Analysis? I need to have a look at more of what's available to me

You definitely make sense, I need to think more about how to shift the focus of play to benefit the ST! I've seen another thread using Atletico to replicate Guardiola so will have a look there for inspiration as well

[ozilthegunner]

3 hours ago, Paulz said:

Thanks - to see pass combinations is that available under Match Analysis? I need to have a look at more of what's available to me

You definitely make sense, I need to think more about how to shift the focus of play to benefit the ST! I've seen another thread using Atletico to replicate Guardiola so will have a look there for inspiration as well

Same issue with Felix in that other thread (although perhaps a solution will appear). But there he needs the striker to play like Messi.

For you, if you mostly just want the striker more involved with goals, and aren't trying to replicate a specific system, then why not try Felix as a complete forward (support or attack ,try both) or as a DLF on attack. 

Those sorts of roles should get him more involved, assuming balance elsewhere (so you may need change there too)