Tactical Series - Guardiola Evolution class - 3 teams 3 styles

[Bailey1]

Great write up! Very interesting to hear other thoughts as I am also trying to replicate the Barca 2010-11 side.

Just a few thoughts:

Messi - I’m currently using a False 9, but have trialed an AP(A) in the AM strata last couple of games... worth having a look as I like what I saw. Drifts around more than the false 9, is more involved in the build up, is a ball magnet (which he was in real life), also picks the ball up deep and drives at the defence more looking for a shot, a pass and gets on the end of cutbacks. Am sceptical of continuing with this as my OCD tells me not to go for strikerless systems!
 

Focus play down right - from a few comments above it mentions how Xavi, Alves, Messi and Pedro create an overload on the right to leave Iniesta in the half space on the left and David Villa ready to make that penetrating run from the left wing behind the defence. Worth having a look how this pans out as well as from watching videos of Barca Messi tends to drop more to the right half spaces to combine with Xavi, Pedro & Alves.

[mp_87]

On 29/12/2020 at 15:21, 04texag said:

Really good comments here. 

I've already left the right CB to a central defender- def duty. I've still been keeping the left CB as a BP-St, but unsure if it'll stick past first month of the season. It is performing just fine, the defenders typically are playing short passes to the DM, or sometimes koke at dlp or the fullbacks. They aren't going any longer than that. 

The left Winger-S, works the best I can get to mimic that Sterling type of role. The key is to have that player be opposite footed. I'm not playing either Correa (who got hurt) or Vitalo there, as they are right footed. This player maintains width with hold position and doesn't participate in the build up very much. But they make runs into the box, or when they get the ball out wide, will try to 1v1 into the box or the by line. It works pretty well and I'm satisfied here. Now, the other flank, I'm going to experiment with some today. I think ultimately will need to just pick one of the types of roles Pedro would execute and go with it, ideally one that unlocks the Treq up top more, as that PRD is not working very well in league games.

I will say, Lemar as the Winger-A on the right has been our best player in attack by far. 

I'll have to try again with the Winger roles. I've tended to shy away from them in recent editions of FM - For my liking, and when trying to play patient methodical possession football, I've found them far too one dimensional and direct. But will have a look to see if they've been tweaked to something more acceptable to my eyes.

Another problem has always been getting the wide players to hold their width if you're mimicking Pep football. In the AM strata, even with stay/play wider instructions, they have always 'collapsed' in towards the central areas too early with the ball still too deep on the pitch. Midfield strata worked better for this but feels wrong putting the Barca teams wide players in that strata, plus it does impact on your pressing capabilities if they're in the deeper positions.

[04texag]

43 minutes ago, Bailey1 said:

Great write up! Very interesting to hear other thoughts as I am also trying to replicate the Barca 2010-11 side.

Just a few thoughts:

Messi - I’m currently using a False 9, but have trialed an AP(A) in the AM strata last couple of games... worth having a look as I like what I saw. Drifts around more than the false 9, is more involved in the build up, is a ball magnet (which he was in real life), also picks the ball up deep and drives at the defence more looking for a shot, a pass and gets on the end of cutbacks. Am sceptical of continuing with this as my OCD tells me not to go for strikerless systems!
 

Focus play down right - from a few comments above it mentions how Xavi, Alves, Messi and Pedro create an overload on the right to leave Iniesta in the half space on the left and David Villa ready to make that penetrating run from the left wing behind the defence. Worth having a look how this pans out as well as from watching videos of Barca Messi tends to drop more to the right half spaces to combine with Xavi, Pedro & Alves.

I've thought about trying something like this as well, as Joao is just rarely involved.

[04texag]

28 minutes ago, mp_87 said:

I'll have to try again with the Winger roles. I've tended to shy away from them in recent editions of FM - For my liking, and when trying to play patient methodical possession football, I've found them far too one dimensional and direct. But will have a look to see if they've been tweaked to something more acceptable to my eyes.

Another problem has always been getting the wide players to hold their width if you're mimicking Pep football. In the AM strata, even with stay/play wider instructions, they have always 'collapsed' in towards the central areas too early with the ball still too deep on the pitch. Midfield strata worked better for this but feels wrong putting the Barca teams wide players in that strata, plus it does impact on your pressing capabilities if they're in the deeper positions.

The winger-s with hold is the only way I've ever gotten one of these AMR/L to stay wide and hold the width when doing a positional play tactic. I would prefer not to use a winger as well, but I need the width. The WM is a great role because it's like the CM role, it's very plain but you aren't locked out from customizing it. But yes, for barca and pressing, you give up to much to use it here in a faithful recreation, now in just a let's try to play good football, it would probably work quite well. 4411 has been successful for me and others here.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Last season, my False Nine lead the team in assists, so in a sense I've had some success but the goals lagged way behind and he was only a single assist ahead so its not like it was amazing. I'm going to stop being stubborn on this particular point and switch to a TREQ, but trying it in the AMC position first.

The Raumdeuter experiment was... interesting. In a sense it was successful. The small selection of games had the player scoring for fun, but that wasn't the goal. I found it fine in the build up play, was less involved and looked to pass more so than dribble. Once the attacking play gets in and around the box those, it's too aggressive in coming central and that's the downside and as such unsuitable I think.

1 hour ago, 04texag said:

The winger-s with hold is the only way I've ever gotten one of these AMR/L to stay wide and hold the width when doing a positional play tactic. I would prefer not to use a winger as well, but I need the width. The WM is a great role because it's like the CM role, it's very plain but you aren't locked out from customizing it. But yes, for barca and pressing, you give up to much to use it here in a faithful recreation, now in just a let's try to play good football, it would probably work quite well. 4411 has been successful for me and others here.

I will now be following your lead on the wide men for the most part. 

How do you feel about the Dribble Less TI? It's something I've been considering, with how many roles are locked into the Dribble More setting, to curb this a bit and get the team using passing and off the ball movement more. Ideally, I'd rather not use it but the lack of a role like WM/CM to tinker with, feels like it the best of a not-ideal situation.

[04texag]

3 minutes ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

How do you feel about the Dribble Less TI? It's something I've been considering, with how many roles are locked into the Dribble More setting, to curb this a bit and get the team using passing and off the ball movement more. Ideally, I'd rather not use it but the lack of a role like WM/CM to tinker with, feels like it the best of a not-ideal situation.

I have started using it some for all of the reasons you mentioned. I would give it a test. 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

My first match testing the new changes (and doing so with a largely second string side), this is the formation Club Brugge lines up with against me. 

Probably the most defensive formation I've encountered in 21. That went about as well as expected, lol

Edited December 31, 2020 by NotSoSpecialOne

[04texag]

26 minutes ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

My first match testing the new changes (and doing so with a largely second string side), this is the formation Club Brugge lines up with against me. 

Probably the most defensive formation I've encountered in 21. That went about as well as expected, lol

Wow that's insane, definitely bearing your head against a wall there. 

[taciotenorio8]

On 30/12/2020 at 08:03, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Sure! This is the most current iteration; I'm giving the Ramdauter a go, inspired by (perhaps unintentionally so) @mp_87 earlier post regarding David Villa. The role is locked into Sit Narrow but gut feeling is it may still hold width well. Honestly a role like the Wide Midfielder where you're free to customise would be ideal here but alas. Also testing the CM(Su) (running with nidhar.ram's suggestion) to see how that interacts with the False Nine.

As mentioned previously, the recreation is inverted by necessity. To visualise it:

Only PIs currently are:

False Nine: Moves Into Channels, Roam From Position

Center-backs: Stay Wider

RWB: Stay Wider

One thing I am starting to do personally is be more fluid with how I approach the Busquets role. The base role is HB, but depending on the opposition formation (typically 1 striker but top heavy, formations) and their press, I switch the HB to a DLP(De) instead and with that, the CBs lose the Stay Wider PI and I also add the Distribute Playmaker TI. This allows the player to still potentially drop into the backline but not nearly as frequently or rigidly so.

Alves was Right Fullback, not left

[NotSoSpecialOne]

47 minutes ago, taciotenorio8 said:

Alves was Right Fullback, not left

I'm well aware. 

But my player in the Dani Alves mould is a left back, so the tactic is 'mirrored' or 'inverted' as a result.

 

2 hours ago, 04texag said:

Wow that's insane, definitely bearing your head against a wall there. 

 

As you can probably imagine, it finished 0-0.  I even pulled out the ol' Pique strategy and slapped a CB up front. Honestly don't know if my first 11 could have broken it down 

Edited December 31, 2020 by NotSoSpecialOne

[crusadertsar]

3 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

My first match testing the new changes (and doing so with a largely second string side), this is the formation Club Brugge lines up with against me. 

Probably the most defensive formation I've encountered in 21. That went about as well as expected, lol

Yeah I think as you play on in FM21 you will see a lot more of those honestly. I think its even worse than FM20 in that regard. That's why I have stated using my 3-4-3 with one CB. To concentrate my players in midfield and in attack. This way we are actually breaking these sides quite consistently. When they decided to play anti-football then it just gives us more time on the ball to pass through the midfield. It is important to keep the tempo on standard of slower in this case. 

[crusadertsar]

To give an example. This is how my Cruyff-style Crazy 3-4-3 does against some parked buses. Note that 3 cental midfielders on Defensive team mentality that Pamplona used basically played as if they were 3 DMs. In addition to 3 CBs. But in the end we had majority of possession through the middle and they couldnt handle our midfield with its superior numbers. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by crusadertsar

[retrodude09]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

Yeah I think as you play on in FM21 you will see a lot more of those honestly. I think its even worse than FM20 in that regard. That's why I have stated using my 3-4-3 with one CB. To concentrate my players in midfield and in attack. This way we are actually breaking these sides quite consistently. When they decided to play anti-football then it just gives us more time on the ball to pass through the midfield. It is important to keep the tempo on standard of slower in this case. 

I see this a lot on the forum & I'm a little confused by it to be honest. Surely by slowing the tempo of your play down, you're giving the defensive bus more time to shift & adjust as opposed to if you move the ball quickly? 

[crusadertsar]

39 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

I see this a lot on the forum & I'm a little confused by it to be honest. Surely by slowing the tempo of your play down, you're giving the defensive bus more time to shift & adjust as opposed to if you move the ball quickly? 

I see tempo this way. Its a very much contextual tool. So its always best to keep it on default until you see how the match is progressing.

When you are playing against an aggressive side that presses you constantly and trying to win the ball back then you want to keep you tempo higher because you dont want your players to hesitate or hold on to the ball too long. They run a stronger chance of losing it to an opposition challenge.

Against weaker sides who are prone to park the ball or sit back this is where you want to lower the tempo to give your players most time to make good decisions on the ball. Especially when you going to win the midfield battle and posses a lot of good "Total Footballers" with excellent off the ball attribute. Its easier to pass your way through even the most stubborn defences. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by crusadertsar

[DimitrisLar]

4 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I see tempo this way. Its a very much contextual tool. So its always best to keep it on default until you see how the match is progressing.

When you are playing against an aggressive side that presses you constantly and trying to win the ball back then you want to keep you tempo higher because you dont want your players to hesitate or hold on to the ball too long. They run a stronger chance of losing it to an opposition challenge.

Against weaker sides who are prone to park the ball or sit back this is where you want to lower the tempo to give your players most time to make good decisions on the ball. Especially when you going to win the midfield battle and posses a lot of good "Total Footballers" with excellent off the ball attribute. Its easier to pass your way through even the most stubborn defences. 

and probably that is a reason for using work ball into box. Playing against a low and passive block. i've dropped it for this years FM but i only use it to break down an enemy team which is sitting back and is passive on its press. with wbib i don't want a quick pass to a player of mine who simple has the Attack duty. Just as pep did against chelsea (but post denied them 3 times, including a penalty  ). EDIT: i mean in the 2011 semis

Edited January 1, 2021 by DimitrisLar

[nidhar.ram]

16 hours ago, 04texag said:

I think this is what I want to still tweak some. Can you share your ideas for what you would do for this flank? Although I have to flip it with Lodi playing the alves role instead of trippier. 

Thinking through it in light of your description too, I might make xavi role the only playmaker but as rpm, then do a standard cm-s "free role" for iniesta role. 

Thanks for looking the video, will watch with coffee this am!

IMO Xavi's role should include these traits - Dictates tempo, Comes deep to get ball, tries to play out of trouble and switch ball to other flank. To me these traits are fundamental of Xavi's play. Traits like Killer balls & long range passes are nice to have but players with good passing, technique, vision and decisions will do this regardless.

For Iniesta, similar traits as Xavi's  but comes deep to get ball is not necessary as Barca's left flank has enough support during build-up and in transition. Moves into Channels is good for Iniesta's role as well. In terms of other attribute, I would be looking for high Flair, Agility & Balance for this player.

As I said in one of the earlier posts, Play one-twos trait is key to get those short intricate passing going in the attacking third.

Regarding Alves role. I have an interesting view. I usually blindly go for CWB(A) but couple of things to notice with this role in FM and how Alves actually positions himself during different phases of attacking play.

In real life, when Xavi drops deep, it is Alves who occupies that space and not the RW (Pedro). Only as the ball moves into its final stage in the opponents box, Pedro aggressively attacks the box and Alves actually attacks the byline. Otherwise, it is always Alves who is the person coming into midfield strata. Secondly, Barca's crossing is not actually a cross you would generally associate with other teams. They call it an aggressive pass from outside to inside. Only since Luis Enrique, Barca actually started crossing the ball into box knowing Suarez is thereabouts.

With this in mind, I will be curious to experiment Alves role as an IWB(A) partnered with and IF(S) who will stay wide and CM(S) at MCR for Xavi's role.

Something like this shown below.

 

                                     F9 or TQ

        IF(A)                                                           IF(S)

                     Mez(S)                      CM(S)

                                    DM or HB

       WB(D)          CD(D)             CD(D)            IWB(A)

                                      SK(S) 

 

I hope this makes sense and let me know what you guys think about it. 

   

[nidhar.ram]

Just loaded an ATM save and in the middle of the first friendly against our B side and I am like what I am seeing. Those movements during transition and in the final third are very pleasing and sometimes unpredictable.

In the below screenshot you will see Lodi our IWB(A) receiving the ball against the byline and an easy 3 vs 2 to  progress the ball up the field. And I also like how the opponent's (in yellow) no 9 is almost jailed by our CB's and DM and there is no way a ball could be played to him in the event we loose the ball.   

Few passes later and after we kept moving the opposition, this is what happened. Lodi(3) and Koke (7) have switched places and we are still in transition to attack. I really like the left sided players swapp ing positions amongst  them. 

Another example of moving opponents and overloading can be seen below. I am sorry if there are too many screenshots, I tried to make a gif and it just wouldn't work.

Trippier is in possession of the ball and we can see that both the flanks are heavily overloaded with those triangles. No 10 is closing down him but trippier has got too many passing options in front of him. 

He chooses to pass to Llorente who passes it back to tripper and the ball now is with Saul who is going to receive with his back to defence. On the other flank, Suarez has started drifting out wide and Lodi is moving to midfield. Oppostion No 11 has shifted his focus from our No to No 7 leaving both our wide players in the left flank completely free.

Saul is quick in reading the game and plays a through pass into the ball for Correa (No 11) who tries a first time low cross into the box which unfortunately couldn't be converted.

I am assuming bcoz of tactical familiarity Suarez(No 10) didn't see that coming and hopefully as the season goes he arrives at the right time

Edited January 1, 2021 by nidhar.ram
alignment

[nidhar.ram]

Here is another goal from the same match. Just a switch of play from Saul makes the opponent loose their defensive shape.

I like how Suarez could have played that lobbed ball to Correa earlier but waited for Lodi to make a run into the box and then made that pass to Correa for him to finish. 

 

[Zemahh]

14 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

Surely by slowing the tempo of your play down, you're giving the defensive bus more time to shift & adjust as opposed to if you move the ball quickly?

But their defence is likely to already be settled anyway, if they're parking the bus. With Lower Tempo, players take more time before making decisions, so that can give more of your players time to get up the pitch and get involved, which is what you may need when your forwards are getting outnumbered. Allowing opposition to take tons of touches can also be quite dangerous, so they either start coming out and closing you down, or they allow your players to make unobstructed passes.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

If anyone's curious, I lasted about all of 30 minutes using a TREQ in AMC slot before I pushed it into the forward strata. Found it made the team pressing rather ineffectual due to the deeper positioning. 

9 hours ago, nidhar.ram said:

 

Regarding Alves role. I have an interesting view. I usually blindly go for CWB(A) but couple of things to notice with this role in FM and how Alves actually positions himself during different phases of attacking play.

In real life, when Xavi drops deep, it is Alves who occupies that space and not the RW (Pedro). Only as the ball moves into its final stage in the opponents box, Pedro aggressively attacks the box and Alves actually attacks the byline. Otherwise, it is always Alves who is the person coming into midfield strata. Secondly, Barca's crossing is not actually a cross you would generally associate with other teams. They call it an aggressive pass from outside to inside. Only since Luis Enrique, Barca actually started crossing the ball into box knowing Suarez is thereabouts.

With this in mind, I will be curious to experiment Alves role as an IWB(A) partnered with and IF(S) who will stay wide and CM(S) at MCR for Xavi's role.

Something like this shown below.

 

                                     F9 or TQ

        IF(A)                                                           IF(S)

                     Mez(S)                      CM(S)

                                    DM or HB

       WB(D)          CD(D)             CD(D)            IWB(A)

                                      SK(S) 

 

I hope this makes sense and let me know what you guys think about it. 

   

I think your reasoning is sound, re: Alves. Not sure the IWB will give that kind of movement (although in theory in should). But I've not used an IWB(A) this version of FM so who knows?

Curious to know why Inside Forwards on the flanks? To reduce crossing?

2 hours ago, Zemahh said:

But their defence is likely to already be settled anyway, if they're parking the bus. With Lower Tempo, players take more time before making decisions, so that can give more of your players time to get up the pitch and get involved, which is what you may need when your forwards are getting outnumbered. Allowing opposition to take tons of touches can also be quite dangerous, so they either start coming out and closing you down, or they allow your players to make unobstructed passes.

Agreed.

And when you start sprinkling in PPMs like Dictates Tempo and/or Plays One Twos, you give the players the license to deviate from the tempo and speed up play situationally anyway.

[04texag]

Just have to say I love all of the discussion in here. There are so many different ways to try to get that Barca tactic to play right. I'm finding the hardest thing is to get the correct players. Atleti has a lot of the pieces, although missing some important ones. I think this save is really struggling, but taking a moment to try some new things before plowing further forward with it.

One thing I will say is that Joao Felix is still way too young and rough around the edges to play the talismanic Messi role. He doesn't have good teamwork or work rate, and no matter what I try to do with him, even playing left wing, he just doesn't produce for me. On the other hand, Thomas Lemar is an absolute beast. I ran a short test and he crushed it playing the messi role, as an AP-A in the AMC slot.

I think some of the core PPM's that these 3 midfield (including messi) need in order to really play right are absolutely mandatory. I'm still working on training them onto Saul and Koke. I have half toyed with the idea of using the editor to just force things, as this is all just a test for someone else to maybe try a long term save with, but I have as of yet not done so. Don't have the editor, assume it's still around for FM21, haven't used it since 18 I believe.

[nidhar.ram]

56 minutes ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

If anyone's curious, I lasted about all of 30 minutes using a TREQ in AMC slot before I pushed it into the forward strata. Found it made the team pressing rather ineffectual due to the deeper positioning. 

I think your reasoning is sound, re: Alves. Not sure the IWB will give that kind of movement (although in theory in should). But I've not used an IWB(A) this version of FM so who knows?

Curious to know why Inside Forwards on the flanks? To reduce crossing?

Agreed.

And when you start sprinkling in PPMs like Dictates Tempo and/or Plays One Twos, you give the players the license to deviate from the tempo and speed up play situationally anyway.

the IWAB(A) for Alves was just a hunch and to be frank it works decent. There is a lot of fluidity between the LB & LW & LCM as shown in the posts above.

I decided to go with IF's to mainly have those aggressive runs into the box. Pep used midfield trio + Messi to move the opponent and let Villa & Pedro make those runs. He never wanted the wide forwards to take on opponents unless they are on counter.    

[nidhar.ram]

18 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Just have to say I love all of the discussion in here. There are so many different ways to try to get that Barca tactic to play right. I'm finding the hardest thing is to get the correct players. Atleti has a lot of the pieces, although missing some important ones. I think this save is really struggling, but taking a moment to try some new things before plowing further forward with it.

One thing I will say is that Joao Felix is still way too young and rough around the edges to play the talismanic Messi role. He doesn't have good teamwork or work rate, and no matter what I try to do with him, even playing left wing, he just doesn't produce for me. On the other hand, Thomas Lemar is an absolute beast. I ran a short test and he crushed it playing the messi role, as an AP-A in the AMC slot.

I think some of the core PPM's that these 3 midfield (including messi) need in order to really play right are absolutely mandatory. I'm still working on training them onto Saul and Koke. I have half toyed with the idea of using the editor to just force things, as this is all just a test for someone else to maybe try a long term save with, but I have as of yet not done so. Don't have the editor, assume it's still around for FM21, haven't used it since 18 I believe.

Great thread this.

Lemar is truly a beast. I was trying him in the LCM as a MEZ(S) and Saul playing the Xavi role on the right and Koke at the base. If anything, his off the ball ,compsure & decisions could be slightly better for this type of football.

Agree with your evaluation of Felix. He is too good to be left on the bench though  More than his below average physicals, I am mainly worried about his low team work. It affects the fluidity in the final third and subsequently puts a dent to our attacks. 

 

[04texag]

1 minute ago, nidhar.ram said:

I am mainly worried about his low team work. It affects the fluidity in the final third and subsequently puts a dent to our attacks. 

I agree completely. Now, maybe after another season or two he can be molded better.

[04texag]

For grins, I ran one game with my latest version of the tactic (might be ready to share soon) with my long term dna save Lazio squad. It looked very impressive, with my players who are world class across all midfield spots. Looked muchore promise. 

I might slightly alter what I'm doing some, using both saves to test and refine tactic, and then at the end of the deal for each stop (barca, bayern, city) do a nice summary and highlight the club I would start a new save with for this, and what players maybe I would slot in, to help make a roadmap for someone wanting to do their own long-term of each. 

[ozilthegunner]

4 hours ago, 04texag said:

I agree completely. Now, maybe after another season or two he can be molded better.

I'm actually curious how much of a role teamwork plays in getting more fluid, small space tactics to work well.

My arsenal team is tops in the league in terms of teamwork (something I've been developing to some extent, although I think it was high in the squad from the off). Wondering how best to exploit that

[04texag]

48 minutes ago, ozilthegunner said:

I'm actually curious how much of a role teamwork plays in getting more fluid, small space tactics to work well.

My arsenal team is tops in the league in terms of teamwork (something I've been developing to some extent, although I think it was high in the squad from the off). Wondering how best to exploit that

I think to play that role, the messi role, it's necessary, as you ultimately, in whatever PRD you settle on, have an attacking playmaker, so they must in essence have some team work or they just won't be good enough at playing others in etc. I think the work rate helps because you need pressing, and off the ball running, a lot. So need someone willing to bust it.

[04texag]

I think I finally cracked it.

It took taking the tactic to my world beating team and pushing the mentality way up (this was done after finally watching that wonderful highlight video, even with tika taka style, this Barca squad was definitely attack, attack, attack). After nailing it with Lazio I brought it back to Atleti and it's proved out to run well through three with them, with the below quality wins. Defensively stable even with VA. 

We are playing some really beautiful football. There is structure in the back, and wow so fluid up front. I think the Alves role is finally playing just right (Lodi, so it's flipped). He tucks towards the middle in build up, but still marauds forwards and gets wide when needed in final third. We have not scored as many as we have had some amazing chances, but either way, it's been really pleasing to watch. The midfield 3 are doing what I want. Iniesta role/Saul is a gem.

And finally the central role has been really good at the build up and also attack. Joao missed a really amazing goal that would have necessitated a highlight, and then another, both off of the woodwork.

Another cool thing, I have finally also gotten the alves role to not really cross the ball so much as put in aggressive passes. When he does it, it look perfect. I maybe should just do a video of all of the key highlights from our recent 2-0 versus Sevilla.

Tactic

 

 

PI's obviously important. Most important and weird ones IMO would be getting the Alves right and the Messi.

Alves role- you really must try this

You need to put him on AUTOMATIC, in order to remove the crosses more. You can now tell him to cross less, but pass more aggressively. I have him sitting narrow to help with build up play, but no worries, he still overlaps. Because the team is on VA mentality, his mentality is very attacking as well, which I think definitely suits. Lodi also went from averaging a 6.5 rating to a 7.1 with this new PRD/PI. 

Messi Role - Again, I wouldn't normally want a strikerless, but this works, just try it.

Pedro Role - I added hold up ball here, to get him to play through balls to the messi role and iniesta role, and got one assist last game with jus that. I think this helps as well since the AP-A is really dropping deep now, and gives him more time to catch up to play.

RPM is Vanilla

Iniesta Role

David Villa role -2 goals last 2 games for Correa

 

 

[yonko]

On 31/12/2020 at 03:17, 04texag said:

I think this is what I want to still tweak some. Can you share your ideas for what you would do for this flank? Although I have to flip it with Lodi playing the alves role instead of trippier. 

Thinking through it in light of your description too, I might make xavi role the only playmaker but as rpm, then do a standard cm-s "free role" for iniesta role. 

Thanks for looking the video, will watch with coffee this am!

Alves role = CWB-S

Xavi role = DLP-S

Pedro role = IW-S

Messi role = Trequartista 

I don't think Xavi was RPM. He saw a lot of the ball. DLP-S and AP-S are the two roles that see the most of the ball. I would actually use RPM for Iniesta. 

I forgot to mention that it's very important to consider the Player Traits in order to recreate all the roles.

[yonko]

For those who are facing teams with very defensive tactics/formations, I suggest the following adjustments to consider:

- 1 notch wider

- 1 notch lower tempo

- 1 notch increased passing

- overlaps on both sides

- remove any focus play

- early crosses

- dribble less and be more expressive (if your tactic doesn't already include them; mine does)

- higher mentality

The idea is to move them side to side and pull them out of their comfort positions, then take advantage of any gaps that may open up. 

[04texag]

25 minutes ago, yonko said:

I don't think Xavi was RPM.

This is an issue I have with FM. Sure, he wasn't, but to get a player to play like him, I think you need to try this. With the right PPM, which are obv hugely important, a RPM can still come deep, will dictate tempo, and will move much more aggressively to keep up with play. Whereas, a DLP will be more stagnant, as they are still considered a holding player. With the busquets role, you want to unlock the xavi/dlp into being more progressive up the pitch. AP is not right here, but RPM will do what I think we are looking for.

PPM's are still missing from the 3 I thought it was paramount to add. But checking their training reports, they are all getting along well in adding them, so hopefully soon some plays one twos will be available.

[04texag]

11 minutes ago, yonko said:

For those who are facing teams with very defensive tactics/formations, I suggest the following adjustments to consider:

- 1 notch wider

- 1 notch lower tempo

- 1 notch increased passing

- overlaps on both sides

- remove any focus play

- early crosses

- dribble less and be more expressive (if your tactic doesn't already include them; mine does)

- higher mentality

The idea is to move them side to side and pull them out of their comfort positions, then take advantage of any gaps that may open up. 

I like a lot of these mentioned here. I typically go wider and slower against a bus, and as you want to pull them out of position then hit at the open space. Good stuff here

[04texag]

Season 1 update

So, partially due to new years, and also to feeling a little sick the last few days, I have not had as much game time, but I am not wanting this to drag on forever, so I have simmed roughly two months in the middle of the season, January and February. And yet, with our new tactic humming along, the results have been going very well. 

 

We are on top of La Liga with one game in hand. Neither Barca or Real Madrid are playing especially well. 

The surprise of the season, when he's healthy, has been Yannick Carrasco playing in the "pedro" role. Now 11 of his 23 goals have come in cup games, but still, he has 23 goals and 10 assists through 21 (7) games, which is absolutely amazing.

Lemar and Felix are splitting time in the Messi role, Since the tactic change, Felix has finally started playing well with 6 goals and 5 assists. Lemar through the campaign has 11 and 6. 

All in all, very pleased. I'll be playing the rest of the big games for remainder of the season, including the second leg of the cup semis coming up and 2nd leg of first knockout round against BMG.

[yonko]

2 hours ago, 04texag said:

This is an issue I have with FM. Sure, he wasn't, but to get a player to play like him, I think you need to try this. With the right PPM, which are obv hugely important, a RPM can still come deep, will dictate tempo, and will move much more aggressively to keep up with play. Whereas, a DLP will be more stagnant, as they are still considered a holding player. With the busquets role, you want to unlock the xavi/dlp into being more progressive up the pitch. AP is not right here, but RPM will do what I think we are looking for.

PPM's are still missing from the 3 I thought it was paramount to add. But checking their training reports, they are all getting along well in adding them, so hopefully soon some plays one twos will be available.

I have tried a lot of different roles and combinations of instructions since FM11 to replicate Pep's Barca. I didn't start yesterday. I speak from experience. 

RPM role plays more like the Iniesta role for me. Xavi was more conservative. 

[04texag]

3 minutes ago, yonko said:

I have tried a lot of different roles and combinations of instructions since FM11 to replicate Pep's Barca. I didn't start yesterday. I speak from experience. 

RPM role plays more like the Iniesta role for me. Xavi was more conservative. 

I'm not saying your wrong, just that with what I was wanting to see, the DLP wasn't expansive enough. The CM-s with it's PI's makes him much more aggressive than the RPM. I appreciate your vast experience, because it's much greater than mine, never claimed anything otherwise and have readily admitted many times I'm pretty new to all of this. 

[nidhar.ram]

2 hours ago, yonko said:

I have tried a lot of different roles and combinations of instructions since FM11 to replicate Pep's Barca. I didn't start yesterday. I speak from experience. 

RPM role plays more like the Iniesta role for me. Xavi was more conservative. 

To say Xavi was more conservative might not be true to its full meaning IMHO. Yes, Xavi was conservative with his dribbling but highly expressive with the way he orchestrated the midfield, his passing.

No player in Pep's team was allowed to do anything on the field except for that little man up front. In fact, Pep is so obsessive about each player's position on the pitch and what actions they will do. Watching him on the sidelines during matches, he gets very annoyed when his player is not at the right position right from build-up to attacking third. Henry talks about Pep's positional play in this video below.

The secret of Fc Barcelona - YouTube

 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

I tried bumping mentality up -I only went to attacking but still two notches up from my normal- out of curiosity. For the 65 minutes or so I kept it on, the team didn't create a single chance. Bumped it back down to balanced again and business (mostly) as usual. I guess sometimes less is more, heh.

Edited January 2, 2021 by NotSoSpecialOne

[sherifdinn_]

On 01/01/2021 at 06:43, nidhar.ram said:

Just loaded an ATM save and in the middle of the first friendly against our B side and I am like what I am seeing. Those movements during transition and in the final third are very pleasing and sometimes unpredictable.

In the below screenshot you will see Lodi our IWB(A) receiving the ball against the byline and an easy 3 vs 2 to  progress the ball up the field. And I also like how the opponent's (in yellow) no 9 is almost jailed by our CB's and DM and there is no way a ball could be played to him in the event we loose the ball.   

Few passes later and after we kept moving the opposition, this is what happened. Lodi(3) and Koke (7) have switched places and we are still in transition to attack. I really like the left sided players swapp ing positions amongst  them. 

Another example of moving opponents and overloading can be seen below. I am sorry if there are too many screenshots, I tried to make a gif and it just wouldn't work.

Trippier is in possession of the ball and we can see that both the flanks are heavily overloaded with those triangles. No 10 is closing down him but trippier has got too many passing options in front of him. 

He chooses to pass to Llorente who passes it back to tripper and the ball now is with Saul who is going to receive with his back to defence. On the other flank, Suarez has started drifting out wide and Lodi is moving to midfield. Oppostion No 11 has shifted his focus from our No to No 7 leaving both our wide players in the left flank completely free.

Saul is quick in reading the game and plays a through pass into the ball for Correa (No 11) who tries a first time low cross into the box which unfortunately couldn't be converted.

I am assuming bcoz of tactical familiarity Suarez(No 10) didn't see that coming and hopefully as the season goes he arrives at the right time

Team instructions. The wide overloads have my attention

[yonko]

15 hours ago, 04texag said:

I'm not saying your wrong, just that with what I was wanting to see, the DLP wasn't expansive enough. The CM-s with it's PI's makes him much more aggressive than the RPM. I appreciate your vast experience, because it's much greater than mine, never claimed anything otherwise and have readily admitted many times I'm pretty new to all of this. 

Then maybe you want a different play, fair enough. 

13 hours ago, nidhar.ram said:

To say Xavi was more conservative might not be true to its full meaning IMHO. Yes, Xavi was conservative with his dribbling but highly expressive with the way he orchestrated the midfield, his passing.

No player in Pep's team was allowed to do anything on the field except for that little man up front. In fact, Pep is so obsessive about each player's position on the pitch and what actions they will do. Watching him on the sidelines during matches, he gets very annoyed when his player is not at the right position right from build-up to attacking third. Henry talks about Pep's positional play in this video below.

The secret of Fc Barcelona - YouTube

 

I meant that Xavi was more conservative than Iniesta. Xavi was brilliant at orchestrating the midfield. But I wouldn't use "expressive" to describe it. He was efficient, effective, calculated. He was like super fast computer chip. 

I've seen all the videos and read all the books & articles. I've been at it for a long time, as I said. Yes, Pep required positional discipline for 2/3 of the field and then allowed them freedom in the final 3rd. That cannot be recreated in FM. As good as the game is, there are some things that we will never be able to recreate with exact accuracy. We can only take certain elements and create our own variations. We also need to make some slight tweaks from game to game to make it effective within FM. 

[camoulton21]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

I've seen all the videos and read all the books & articles. I've been at it for a long time, as I said. Yes, Pep required positional discipline for 2/3 of the field and then allowed them freedom in the final 3rd. That cannot be recreated in FM. As good as the game is, there are some things that we will never be able to recreate with exact accuracy. We can only take certain elements and create our own variations. We also need to make some slight tweaks from game to game to make it effective within FM. 

Wouldn't the 'Be More Expressive' TI help create the freedom in the final third? I'm pretty sure that in the Tactics Creator the TI is under the sub-section FInal Third. That sounds like exactly what you are describing

Edited January 2, 2021 by camoulton21

[04texag]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

Yes, Pep required positional discipline for 2/3 of the field and then allowed them freedom in the final 3rd. That cannot be recreated in FM. As good as the game is, there are some things that we will never be able to recreate with exact accuracy.

I agree we can't ever get exactly the fluidity of tactics and different attacking variation on the game without multiple tactics and tweaking, but my latest posted tactic is getting as close as I've yet to achieve at defensive structure in the back and extreme fluidity in the final third. I suggest people give it a try themselves just to see if you get anything close to what I'm seeing, because it's been quite a good site to see. 

You could change the xavi role to dlps and not lose a lot from what I've been doing and then just keep the rest the same. 

[Plugpin]

1 hour ago, 04texag said:

I agree we can't ever get exactly the fluidity of tactics and different attacking variation on the game without multiple tactics and tweaking, but my latest posted tactic is getting as close as I've yet to achieve at defensive structure in the back and extreme fluidity in the final third. I suggest people give it a try themselves just to see if you get anything close to what I'm seeing, because it's been quite a good site to see. 

I've just started a DNA save with Roma and am looking to implement this, what training would you recommend for this? 

EDIT: Oh and top work, this looks great and I can't want to see if I can knock Juv off their perch lol. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Plugpin

[04texag]

20 minutes ago, Plugpin said:

I've just started a DNA save with Roma and am looking to implement this, what training would you recommend for this? 

EDIT: Oh and top work, this looks great and I can't want to see if I can knock Juv off their perch lol. 

Thanks!

I would go with a lot of tactical training at the beginning, then it's up to you. I have some training calendars that I use for my total football club DNA, which is posted somewhere in my other thread. I'm not in game at the moment but can screen post some later.

[04texag]

I used the FM training calculator spreadsheet to come up with schedules that both worked match prep and the attributes I wanted to target for total football/positional play. Here are senior schedules

 

 

And youth schedules with heavier physical emphasis.

 

 

 

[04texag]

33 minutes ago, Plugpin said:

I've just started a DNA save with Roma and am looking to implement this, what training would you recommend for this? 

EDIT: Oh and top work, this looks great and I can't want to see if I can knock Juv off their perch lol. 

Oh and btw, I think roma would be fun with this. I think zaniolo could work out great long term in the messi role. 

[Plugpin]

28 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Oh and btw, I think roma would be fun with this. I think zaniolo could work out great long term in the messi role. 

Yeah, it sucks that he's injured for 9 months when you start lol.

[yonko]

11 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

Wouldn't the 'Be More Expressive' TI help create the freedom in the final third? I'm pretty sure that in the Tactics Creator the TI is under the sub-section FInal Third. That sounds like exactly what you are describing

That instruction doesn't just apply to the final third though. 

11 hours ago, 04texag said:

I agree we can't ever get exactly the fluidity of tactics and different attacking variation on the game without multiple tactics and tweaking, but my latest posted tactic is getting as close as I've yet to achieve at defensive structure in the back and extreme fluidity in the final third. I suggest people give it a try themselves just to see if you get anything close to what I'm seeing, because it's been quite a good site to see. 

You could change the xavi role to dlps and not lose a lot from what I've been doing and then just keep the rest the same. 

The strikerless tactic with Very Attacking mentality?

I'm sure it plays nicely and you can have a lot of success with it. But it's not replication of Pep's Barca based on the roles, instructions and mentality. 

I suggest you have a read through this classic thread by @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! which he created for FM17. (if you haven't read it already)

There are a lot of good ideas you can take from that thread and good base for a proper replication. I'm not suggesting copy all of it but rather use it to adapt it to FM21 version with the tools (instructions) we now have. Beware that players in WB strata are more aggressive in FM21 than they were in FM17. So I would pull down those roles to DL and DR. 

But you can still keep it strikerless or not. We didn't have IW role back then, so you can use it now. 

[nidhar.ram]

48 minutes ago, yonko said:

That instruction doesn't just apply to the final third though

Well, it certainly falls under the Final Third tab  

But it has always been hard for me to understand BME in the match engine. I haven't seen extravagant roaming, flair or vision when using BME as opposed to when not using it when the same set-up.

Hopefully  someone show some differences it has made to their set-up.

[axehan1]

Here's my attempt at this formation/tactic.

It produces the most amazing football, the half back is probably my most favourite role which helps to combat teams that try to gegenpress, we play out from the back with either the centrebacks starting moves or the keeper finding the halfback, the non use of playmakers in midfield is an absolute must as we want to work the ball forward as often as possible and use the overloads especially down the left flank.As a result my AMR is having a cracking goalscoring season My go to AMR is Mason Greenwood.

18 goals in 31 games .The most pleasing aspect is the variety of goalsBalls played through the middle (yes central play) where he cuts inside between central defender and full back and my favourite when play is focused down the left due to the overload and the mezalla will find him one on one with the left fullback and find him with a ball over the top for a volley or a ground pass inside the full back.

The forward is my only concern.Haaland has 24 in 33 in all comps but i'm not entirely sure how to play him.Below is the heat map of our last game against Leicester

He played as an Advanced Forward in this game and had 5 attempts,2 missed headers and 3 shots saved by the keeper, I felt like he should have scored all 5 so i might persist with him in this role, he was definitely heavily involved throughout.

[camoulton21]

Just finished watching City v Chelsea and it might be worth putting your wide forwards on the same side as their strong foot like how Foden and Sterling were used. They can still make the inside runs but by utilising the wide forwards in this way they might keep better width