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What's going on with my fullbacks??


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At first i thought it was just that i had tish players for that position but ive been through about 5 right backs in two seasons and every one every game is a rating between 6.0 and 6.5, can anyome see anything in the tactical set up that could be causing it? ive tried roles as fullback, wing back, support, defend, tried each for a for a good few games in a row and still the same, left back is always pretty bad too but steinhart is shyte and salger is a better centre back also they occasionally have decent games, pinheiro and vignali are both decent standard for bundesliga 2 and both strongest position is wingback which is what ive mainly been trying to use them as... frustrating the life out of me as i dont have a very attacking/high defensive line tactic and conservative team instructions so why are they playing trash every game?? 

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I am  no tactical wizard, but the thing I notice is that the Right FB has nobody ahead to pass to.  I mean the DM will drop back, and the DLP will drop deep to get the ball, then all the forward players are on attack so they will be looking to push forward.  The  left FB has the left Cm pushing wide to pass to.  So perhaps the RFB gets the ball and can only pass backwards or a long cross in hope? Just a thought.

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5 minutes ago, Andros said:

I am  no tactical wizard, but the thing I notice is that the Right FB has nobody ahead to pass to.  I mean the DM will drop back, and the DLP will drop deep to get the ball, then all the forward players are on attack so they will be looking to push forward.  The  left FB has the left Cm pushing wide to pass to.  So perhaps the RFB gets the ball and can only pass backwards or a long cross in hope? Just a thought.

What do you think either have the winger on support or full back on attack? Can't really have two mezzala in cm unless dlp has settings to drift wide but scared of losing possession 

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40 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

What do you think either have the winger on support or full back on attack? Can't really have two mezzala in cm unless dlp has settings to drift wide but scared of losing possession 

like i said: i am not tactical expert! But (without knowing your players) a ST on support duty might offer a passing option. the left wide MF can attack the goal, the right FB can look to pass back to the dlp, the St sup , a cross to the left wing or a through ball to the right winger.  but i guess you need to consider how your team is doing overall. are you just trying to improve the RBs ratings and perhaps make your team worse, or can your team improve?

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Player ratings can often be misleading in FM, so they don't necessarily reflect how good or bad a player actually was in a match. 

If a player is doing what you want and expect from him - and if you are pleased with your team's results and performances overall - I would suggest you simply ignore this (nominal) statistical data. 

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7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Player ratings can often be misleading in FM, so they don't necessarily reflect how good or bad a player actually was in a match. 

If a player is doing what you want and expect from him - and if you are pleased with your team's results and performances overall - I would suggest you simply ignore this (nominal) statistical data. 

For some reason missing headers will tank your ratings. At halftime check to see what your players are doing right or doing wrong with the Player Stats. Are your fullbacks not successfully crossing? Are they missing their tackles? What about headers? How’s their passing? When I see a low rating for my players I take a look at those ingame stats to get a better picture of what’s going on and where to adjust. 

Edited by Lurking Manager
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5 hours ago, busngabb said:

That's nonsense surely? The player ratings are one of the key components of the game and always have been.

The match engine isn't sophisticated enough to tell anything from, so you've got to use the data, average ratings, shots on target, expected goals, possession etc to gauge how you are doing.

It is not nonsense. The game will value certain things, and not others. This may or may not align with what you value. The example I always think of in these situations is a DMC in a 433. When I play them their job is to shield the CBs and to act as a pivot when we attack. So get the ball and play a simple pass to someone else. He will rarely get higher than 6.9 for a rating, and often lower. But he is one of the key players in the team, and is simply does not show up from rating. 

The second statement is, I am sorry, nonsense. It is entirely possible to understand from the ME how you are doing without resorting to statistics during a game. You have to simply learn to read the game. Statistical breakdowns are for after a match when I want to understand why something was working. I can see that it worked from watching the game. Of course this is dependent on the detail level you use to some extent. 

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Il y a 9 heures, Experienced Defender a dit :

Player ratings can often be misleading in FM, so they don't necessarily reflect how good or bad a player actually was in a match. 

If a player is doing what you want and expect from him - and if you are pleased with your team's results and performances overall - I would suggest you simply ignore this (nominal) statistical data. 

Player ratings impact :

- Morale

- Awards 

- Media (they ask if i should make a change) 

And probably value too.

So how can you say ignore this??

Do you find it normal that his fb is averaging a 6.5 rating throughout and WHOLE season ? Thats bad. He is not getting into any team of the year thats for sure.

Oh and btw this wasnt an issue before last update.

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il y a une heure, Lurking Manager a dit :

For some reason missing headers will tank your ratings. At halftime check to see what your players are doing right or doing wrong with the Player Stats. Are your fullbacks not successfully crossing? Are they missing their tackles? What about headers? How’s their passing? When I see a low rating for my players I take a look at those ingame stats to get a better picture of what’s going on and where to adjust. 

Key tackles are not being registered. This has been discussed as an issue.

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49 minutes ago, evilpimp972 said:

Key tackles are not being registered. This has been discussed as an issue.

yeah none of my fullbacks have registered a single key tackle all season and getting mostly good passing and tackle completion

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55 minutes ago, evilpimp972 said:

Key tackles are not being registered. This has been discussed as an issue.

another thing ive just looked at, haven't really seen before, looking on the form page at the feedback says the players are struggling with language... ive got some screenshots of another game with lille, where my fullbacks are getting decent rating but not sure if this game was before latest update, does anyone know when the latest was? still some interesting feedback on theirs too about complacency, would harsher pre match team talks be applicable in this situation? as personal 1-1 talks are very one dimensional, annoys me that this year theyve removed the "threaten with transfer list" option right off the bat, a player can be getting 6.2 every game but you can criticize him because his tackling and passing are good enough

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I’ve found this too, with full backs and wing backs. It doesn’t matter what they do with the ball, if they miss a tackle or a header then their rating drops hugely. I’ve just started ignoring it and watching the game to see what they do. My two wing backs on my main save are amongst my highest assist makers, as well as being part of a defence that has kept the second most clean sheets in the league. But they’re averaging 6.5 and 6.8. I take it with a pinch of salt.

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5 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

It is not nonsense. The game will value certain things, and not others. This may or may not align with what you value. The example I always think of in these situations is a DMC in a 433. When I play them their job is to shield the CBs and to act as a pivot when we attack. So get the ball and play a simple pass to someone else. He will rarely get higher than 6.9 for a rating, and often lower. But he is one of the key players in the team, and is simply does not show up from rating. 

The second statement is, I am sorry, nonsense. It is entirely possible to understand from the ME how you are doing without resorting to statistics during a game. You have to simply learn to read the game. Statistical breakdowns are for after a match when I want to understand why something was working. I can see that it worked from watching the game. Of course this is dependent on the detail level you use to some extent. 

The game giving fullbacks bad ratings clearly isn't something to ignore, it's clearly a bug they need to fix. Your point about your DMC who doesn't do anything is a good example of where it's difficult for them to get a good rating, the old water-boy scenario with Deschamps, but that's not the case with fullbacks, the rating calculation is just bugged.

The match engine is still debateable. The animation is horrible which doesn't help. Take my last game with Fulham as an example. All the highlights are my side attacking, XG 1.84 v Fulhams 0.24. Fulham score first, Lookman drifts in mid-air and cuts inside whilst the fullback set to mark him and show him onto his left foot runs on the spot. Lookman then crosses the ball, it hits my central defender on the back of the head as he runs the other way, my other central defender hammers it off their striker and Lookman has a tap in. What tactical analysis do I gain from that? Their second goal is Lookman again (Still being marked, tackled hard and shown on his left foot) levitating inside again and crossing for Mitrovic to score (Despite being marked tightly by Yerry Mina). Tactical understanding from that? Berate Mina as he stood on the spot and twitched violently rather than jumping for the ball. Clearly there is an issue with Lookman, but other than showing him onto his weak foot, tackling him hard and marking him I don't see what more can be done. My right back is on him all the time, he just does nothing but shake and follow him as he levitates through mid air. Possibly just a case of a player being better than his opponent and there being nothing to do but stand and applaud.

The match engine can show if you've got glaring tactic issues I guess. If their wide players are constantly marauding forward with no one near them for example you've got an issue. Or if your midfield is constantly a man light and they make easy progress. Beyond the basics like that there is nothing you can easily take from it. You can certainly imagine there are deep tactical nuances evident, but that's just playing make believe. What SI needs to do is expand the assistant's input and make it actually useful. Rather than telling you repeatedly to play for set pieces in the dying stages of a game you're winning 6-0, it should be showing you where you're going drastically wrong. A good example is a lot of my goals conceded ultimately start from my central defender with loads of time and space and a role of BPD hammering the ball 60 yards down the field and conceding possession, despite being set to short passing and play out from the back. There are options for him, but he just hammers it. Why? If that's a tactical failing in my setup, why isn't the assistant telling me what it is? It could be caused by mentality, line depth etc, but there's no obvious common sense change to fix that, other than selling one international centre back and buying another.

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Well if you look at the preset Player Instructions of a Ball Playing Defender, you’ll see that they’re set to make more risky passes. A BPD is more of a David Luiz who will try 50/60 yard passes, so that’ll be why he’s trying to play long passes. You’re better setting your defenders to a standard Central Defender role if you want to play out of defence. There you go... I’ve given you some tactical advice that you must have been unaware of.

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1 minute ago, OrientTillIDie said:

Well if you look at the preset Player Instructions of a Ball Playing Defender, you’ll see that they’re set to make more risky passes. A BPD is more of a David Luiz who will try 50/60 yard passes, so that’ll be why he’s trying to play long passes. You’re better setting your defenders to a standard Central Defender role if you want to play out of defence. There you go... I’ve given you some tactical advice that you must have been unaware of.

Great. Your response is a good example of how the game would never give you that feedback. You'd never get that from the game. And it's still an issue with the match engine, as the passes aren't to anyone, there isn't even anyone near them, they're just hammering it. How do you stop Ademola Lookman levitating inside and how do you stop inside forwards in general? I've got them marked and shown onto the foot that would take them on the outside rather than cutting in, but they still do. I've also got a CDM who should cover that but doesn't.

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19 minutes ago, busngabb said:

Great. Your response is a good example of how the game would never give you that feedback. You'd never get that from the game. And it's still an issue with the match engine, as the passes aren't to anyone, there isn't even anyone near them, they're just hammering it. How do you stop Ademola Lookman levitating inside and how do you stop inside forwards in general? I've got them marked and shown onto the foot that would take them on the outside rather than cutting in, but they still do. I've also got a CDM who should cover that but doesn't.

Surely you shouldn’t need the game to give you that feedback though? You should look at the preset PIs when setting your roles up, in order to understand what you’re actually doing.

 

With regards to why he’s hammering it to no one, my response to that would be this: are there any easy outlets for him, or is smashing it forward to nobody in particular his only option? What Team Instructions are you using? Where are your other players positioned? What roles do they have? Again, this isn’t something you should need feedback for from your assistant necessarily. More that you should be able to notice why this is happening.

 

With regards to stopping Lookman coming inside, I’d have to see your right backs attributes, along with your entire system to be able to make more of a judgement on that. It could be that Lookman has more pace and agility than your full back, in which case he will be able to get inside much easier, regardless of the instructions you set. Equally, tight marking doesn’t give your centre back a god given right to head the ball away from an onrushing striker every single time. Especially if the cross is good, and if the centre forward is good in the air, which Mitrovic is. 
 

EDIT: I’d also throw in this: in real life, defenders get given those instructions too. Do they always work? Does the left winger ALWAYS get dispossessed by the full back because those instructions were given? Because if the defenders ALWAYS succeeded in stopping the opposition attacks then every game would be 0-0.

Edited by OrientTillIDie
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15 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

...

If a player is doing what you want and expect from him - and if you are pleased with your team's results and performances overall - I would suggest you simply ignore this (nominal) statistical data. 

True but on the other hand it's not real football it's a pc software and here average rating affects:

Form, morale, player development, manager performance, players' value so it's not something to be ignored.

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I have this issue too in my Norwich save in the same formation (but different set up). Massively overachieving and doing well in my first year in the PL (7th with 8 games to go) so no huge issue in the grand scheme of my save, but my LB is regularly getting anywhere between 6.0-6.4 ratings in every match, unless he gets an assist.

It doesn't bother me hugely as I'm still doing well, but my save is about producing or buying young talent and selling for profit, so this player's value has barely moved since I signed him whereas all others have vastly improved with general average individual ratings anywhere from 6.8-7.1 across my team. That's the frustration for me, so if it is an issue in the ME then hopefully it does get fixed.

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1 hour ago, OrientTillIDie said:

Surely you shouldn’t need the game to give you that feedback though? You should look at the preset PIs when setting your roles up, in order to understand what you’re actually doing.

I don't make that link. It's not common sense and it doesn't relate to real life football. To you a BPD is a maniac like David Luiz trying hollywood long balls all the time. To me a BPD is a John Stones, a defender who will be confident on the ball and look up when he receives it. He'll look to feed the ball into midfield or if not on link in with the keeper or fullback to keep the ball moving. He'll not only hand it off, but look to involve himself in the next play too, offering himself for a return pass if it's on. To me the 'high risk pass' more often means feeding it into a midfielders feet when he's covered, where it's possible he might have it stolen. The length of the passing should still be dictated by the team instructions and or his invididual ones, none of them mention hammering it 60 feet down field when there isn't a player within 20 yards of it when their defender receives it. You may well be right and that's why it's happening, but it's not showing it to me in a way I could make that link.

I'd love to watch an experienced real life coach play FM. See if they could be successful and spot these issues from the match engine, rather than from years of knowledge of the software and how it works.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, KlaaZ said:

For what it's worth, key tackles may play a part but I believe that in combination with low crossing completion is the main reason why full backs currently are consistently getting low ratings. 

there isnt even any information for cross attempts and completion on the form screen either is there unless im missing something

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48 minutes ago, busngabb said:

I don't make that link. It's not common sense and it doesn't relate to real life football. To you a BPD is a maniac like David Luiz trying hollywood long balls all the time. To me a BPD is a John Stones, a defender who will be confident on the ball and look up when he receives it.

I don't think there is a lot of room for personal interpretation, the role description already explains what it does - "unlike the standard CB, the BPD is encouraged to launch through balls from deep".

 

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57 minutes ago, Chris2509 said:

I don't think there is a lot of room for personal interpretation, the role description already explains what it does - "unlike the standard CB, the BPD is encouraged to launch through balls from deep".

 

:lol: So it does. I'll have to read the rest of them to see what they mean. My point about the match engine is still valid however, as he clearly isn't doing that. There isn't a player within 20 yards of the ball. So it's more of a question of why isn't the BPD playing decent passes, his stats aren't bad, passing 14, decisions 14, vision 14.

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17 hours ago, matt_afc said:

I have this issue too in my Norwich save in the same formation (but different set up). Massively overachieving and doing well in my first year in the PL (7th with 8 games to go) so no huge issue in the grand scheme of my save, but my LB is regularly getting anywhere between 6.0-6.4 ratings in every match, unless he gets an assist.

It doesn't bother me hugely as I'm still doing well, but my save is about producing or buying young talent and selling for profit, so this player's value has barely moved since I signed him whereas all others have vastly improved with general average individual ratings anywhere from 6.8-7.1 across my team. That's the frustration for me, so if it is an issue in the ME then hopefully it does get fixed.

same here mate got promoted first season and doing even better second season on zero budget just loaning young talent and punching above my weight but its annoying 

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14 hours ago, busngabb said:

:lol: So it does. I'll have to read the rest of them to see what they mean. My point about the match engine is still valid however, as he clearly isn't doing that. There isn't a player within 20 yards of the ball. So it's more of a question of why isn't the BPD playing decent passes, his stats aren't bad, passing 14, decisions 14, vision 14.

I would suggest it's either a set up problem or an attribute problem because both of mine don't do that. You have also listed three good attributes so likely not to be that  whats his composure like too?

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Just had a great example in my game of what my BPDers do. 

My CWB(3) is wide open on the left and Costas who has great composure under pressure as well as other great attributes pings it out to the wide open CWB who uses his immense pace to race in and score. This is what I want from my BPDer when he tries a through ball from deep, a calm measured approach to hit that open player as and when the chance presents itself. He is keeping it simple for most of the game, still using his passing range to stretch play but  he isn't launching it up to no one in particular and so I would suggest that it is possibly something in your system because it is not match engine related at all. 

image.png.19310c299b67c082333b0101d7271dfb.png

At the end of the match he ends up with 100 percent passing looking like this and he has missed one pass in two matches.

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For context the other BPD missed one pass.

image.png.9aa4853211a9042079ecc14ee4eedc2d.png

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18 hours ago, KlaaZ said:

For what it's worth, key tackles may play a part but I believe that in combination with low crossing completion is the main reason why full backs currently are consistently getting low ratings. 

Are you suggesting cross completion is a ME problem because all my starting fullbacks in both saves average between 19 and 21% which comfortable puts them well above the league average so again I don't see an issue.

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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12 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Are you suggesting cross completion is a ME problem because all my starting fullbacks in both saves average between 19 and 21% which comfortable puts them well above the league average so again I don't see an issue.

No, I'm just saying that low cross completion probably has a disproportionate impact on player ratings and thus has a substantial impact on the low full back ratings.

And it annoys me because a cross is (afaik) flagged as completed when it connects to a player in the box. So a cross that is effectively a good cross but doesn't connect to one of your players is considered a bad cross by the game. But that's another discussion. :)

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Just checked both saves again, in one save both FB's are in the top four ratings wise and mallo has done that with a 14% cross completion. Ugarte has 21%.

image.png.f99569651e97db3a4962c699935e4134.png

The other save sees both of them at 5th and 7th in average ratings and the 2nd save was only started yesterday. I am sure the key tackles thing is an issue but not one that should consistently be making the FBS have poor ratings in comparison to the rest.  

image.png.0798f35523132cd5f5b9dfb85bcfd4ff.png

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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1 hour ago, KlaaZ said:

No, I'm just saying that low cross completion probably has a disproportionate impact on player ratings and thus has a substantial impact on the low full back ratings.

And it annoys me because a cross is (afaik) flagged as completed when it connects to a player in the box. So a cross that is effectively a good cross but doesn't connect to one of your players is considered a bad cross by the game. But that's another discussion. :)

where do you find out crossing statistics? im not seeing anything on my form screen for the players, i thought they just counted them in with passes

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8 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

where do you find out crossing statistics? im not seeing anything on my form screen for the players, i thought they just counted them in with passes

Set up a custom view in your squad screen and put in any of the stats you so desire. To compare them to the league average go on the league table and find the detailed team stats and you will see where your team ranks in the attacking stats section. 

image.png.f79d6977abb26a60df32f3b440e1c78c.png

image.png.dc77608281168b24e02370c25bc6a336.png

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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11 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Set up a custom view in your squad screen and put in any of the stats you so desire. To compare them to the league average go on the league table and find the detailed team stats and you will see where your team ranks in the attacking stats section. 

image.png.f79d6977abb26a60df32f3b440e1c78c.png

image.png.dc77608281168b24e02370c25bc6a336.png

got it, i was just looking on the player profile, which it isnt shown on, theyre completing roughly 1/10 of their crosses

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1 hour ago, Jorge666 said:

got it, i was just looking on the player profile, which it isnt shown on, theyre completing roughly 1/10 of their crosses

'That's not great, so I would do some further research like how many crosses do they take in comparison to the other fullbacks in the league and then drill down, is it an attribute problem or a tactical problem. Do I even want them being the primary crossers in the game. In my system the FBs and their crossing are absolutely the key to making my tactic work and I don't want anyone else really putting too many in so a quick check and I can see they are both comfortably top in crosses attempted.

After that I look at the completion ratio and if they aren't around the number I want then I start to analyze where the problem is. A lot of times the issue with completion is tactical in that people aren't getting enough players in to the box or there might be a problem with the quality of the player receiving the crosses. A player can be 6ft 4 with great heading but if he has bravery of 5 he is going to shy away from getting on the end of the crosses. Fullbacks despite having great crossing, dribbling pace are useless to me if  they have poor mental attributes making poor choices and picking the wrong time to cross or pinging it off defenders for corners. 

Here's the difference in crossing between the guys with bad mentals I inherited in the fist game against Gent:

image.png.93acb673c6366044245f543f7577a797.png

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And their more intelligent replacements in the return game against Gent:

image.png.2e308b168ab797336294e150e5d014c7.png

image.png.f5ee128c52d6e82f54485f31fd97b3b9.png

 

 

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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It's not just fullbacks but more positions, for example check my striker:

d7eec3bb7dd04430b86a48b5d26c223f.png

he is a lone striker so i want him to score goals and not to create for others. His goals are higher than his personal xG and pretty much everything looks very good but his "average rating" 7.04 is quite low.

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5 minutes ago, kevaggel said:

It's not just fullbacks but more positions, for example check my striker:

d7eec3bb7dd04430b86a48b5d26c223f.png

he is a lone striker so i want him to score goals and not to create for others. His goals are higher than his personal xG and pretty much everything looks very good but his "average rating" 7.04 is quite low.

Just feels like a bad match engine, loads of poor ratings and no amount of b*llocking, tactical tinkering or new signings seem to make a blind bit of difference and no key passes by any player in any position are counted

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2 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:

... and no key passes by any player in any position are counted

Key passes are looking OK, even have the 6th player in the list.
9ef681f2f9728a899d382622b15090ad.png

On the other "key tackles" are absolute zero for every player in LaLiga but this is an acknowledged bug by SI.

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20 minutes ago, kevaggel said:

Key passes are looking OK, even have the 6th player in the list.
9ef681f2f9728a899d382622b15090ad.png

On the other "key tackles" are absolute zero for every player in LaLiga but this is an acknowledged bug by SI.

Not a single player has one key pass on my entire squad 

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 If key tackles not being registered and the average rating being slightly tuned down are deal breakers for people then that's your prerogative but I simply do not believe your players haven't registered one key pass.

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I don't get why people like to complain about everything and don't get me wrong if something isn't working how it should then we should by all means report it with evidence, the more people that do this the more they are forced to find a solution but saying the game is unplayable because your players are getting 6.1 instead of a 6.7 or because the game doesn't record key tackles is a bit ridiculous.

If you're worried that players not having high average ratings influence how much they are valued at then you should keep in mind that it affects the AI too and players values is not calculated just based on average ratings.

Personally I've not noticed it that much. The only time I see my players get low ratings is when they had nothing to do all game 

Edited by DarJ
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3 hours ago, DarJ said:

I don't get why people like to complain about everything and don't get me wrong if something isn't working how it should then we should by all means report it with evidence, the more people that do this the more they are forced to find a solution but saying the game is unplayable because your players are getting 6.1 instead of a 6.7 or because the game doesn't record key tackles is a bit ridiculous.

If you're worried that players not having high average ratings influence how much they are valued at then you should keep in mind that it affects the AI too and players values is not calculated just based on average ratings.

Personally I've not noticed it that much. The only time I see my players get low ratings is when they had nothing to do all game 

Because a fullback with 4 goals and 12 assists playing in a team that was predicted to finish mid-table but is instead in the top 2 with the best defence in the league shouldn't have an average rating of 6.7. It massively affects the players morale when you're constantly questioned in the media as to why you continue to play said player despite his clearly impressive goal contributions. 

It also damages a players development. A lot of FM players love to buy a youngster and develop them or buy a player on the cheap and then improve and sell them for profit, but this is made much harder by the fact that the average ratings decreasing the rate of player development.

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