Need help with my Leeds tactic - finished 4th in my 1st season but am now finishing mid table a few seasons later

[L053R]

I set out to try and recreate an Arsenal style tactic from 2015-2017 when they had the likes of Ozil and Sanchez and Giroud etc all play intricate passes with one another and usually ending in a goal. I know they didn't win anything but I still really admired the way they played and wanted to do the same on FM21. It worked very well the first season as we finished 4th place and got some very nice victories, even away against the big teams we did very well. Of course we were on the end of a few hidings against the likes of Liverpool and Man U but overall we were solid and scored goals. I have posted a few screenshots below in order for people to critique.

The second season we didn't do nearly as good - we were inconsistent all season and finished 8th. As you can see in all the screenshots we are conceding far too many goals so that is what I would like help with. We have no problem scoring - Rodrigo scored 45 goals for me in 2 season before requesting a transfer. I signed Daniel Maldini from AC Milan and he scored 11 and assisted 12 and Rafinha on the right IW position got similar numbers. 

It may just be a case of that my players are not good enough. In my first season all my attackers were getting goals but the next season all their goals and assists have halved. 

Help would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by L053R

[LHurlz]

You're playing with an attacking mentality, two wing backs on attack, two IWs on attack and no defend duty in the midfield, no wonder you're conceding so many  Drop those wing backs to support as well as one of the wide players, ideally the one on the same side as the BBM.

I would also not advise playing with 2 BPDs as this will not help you keep possession, as your TIs imply you want to, but rather encourage your defenders to play a lot of long balls and lose possession. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by LHurlz

[L053R]

4 minutes ago, LHurlz said:

You're playing with an attacking mentality, two wing backs on attack, two IWs on attack and no defend duty in the midfield, no wonder you're conceding so many  Drop those wing backs to support as well as one of the wide players.

I would also not advise playing with 2 BPDs as this will not help you keep possession, as your TIs imply you want to, but rather encourage your defenders to play a lot of long balls and lose possession. 

True, thanks mate

Anything regarding the BBM and DLP or is that okay?

Nvm just saw the edit. I'll stick the DLP on defend and see how it goes

Edited December 30, 2020 by L053R

[LHurlz]

2 minutes ago, L053R said:

True, thanks mate

Anything regarding the BBM and DLP or is that okay?

Nvm just saw the edit. I'll stick the DLP on defend and see how it goes

DLP(s) and BBM is actually my go-to midfield pairing in the rare event I opt to use a 4231 so you don't necessarily need to have the DLP on defend, but you just need to make sure you're keeping ample defensive cover all over the pitch.  If your DLP isn't good defensively by nature then maybe you could put him on defend to aid him

[ozilthegunner]

You started playing in Europe in your second season, right? That can always cause issues due to tiredness,  etc

But your tactic is also suspect both defensively and in transition. All those attack duties aren't going to replicate the intricate passing of the gunners,  especially when on attacking mentality.  Half your players probably have a 'very attacking ' mindset.

When I played fm back around those years with arsenal my front 4 were DLF(s), AP(a), IF(a), and W(s)

Edited December 30, 2020 by ozilthegunner

[L053R]

1 hour ago, LHurlz said:

DLP(s) and BBM is actually my go-to midfield pairing in the rare event I opt to use a 4231 so you don't necessarily need to have the DLP on defend, but you just need to make sure you're keeping ample defensive cover all over the pitch.  If your DLP isn't good defensively by nature then maybe you could put him on defend to aid him

I will take these into consideration. Thanks for the help!

[L053R]

50 minutes ago, ozilthegunner said:

You started playing in Europe in your second season, right? That can always cause issues due to tiredness,  etc

But your tactic is also suspect both defensively and in transition. All those attack duties aren't going to replicate the intricate passing of the gunners,  especially when on attacking mentality.  Half your players probably have a 'very attacking ' mindset.

When I played fm back around those years with arsenal my front 4 were DLF(s), AP(a), IF(a), and W(s)

How were the results? I have switched my right IW to a W on su. Just had him assist a goal

[josel15]

I would argue that none of the front of four of Arsenal were on attack, it was a really really fluid attack.
So, I would say that the double pivot was in the defensive mids strata, as they were really deep and had the objective of having Ozil roaming all around that space and pulling the strings.

On the right Walcott and Chamberlain were wingers on support, I would say, and when Ramsey played he came a lot more inside and be a IW.

On the left Alexis would play as he well pleased, but was positioned more inside, as a IF on support, and Giroud was a DLF on support.

The full backs I would say they were wing backs on support, and, on occasion they would be overlapping.

[ozilthegunner]

2 hours ago, josel15 said:

I would argue that none of the front of four of Arsenal were on attack, it was a really really fluid attack.
So, I would say that the double pivot was in the defensive mids strata, as they were really deep and had the objective of having Ozil roaming all around that space and pulling the strings.

On the right Walcott and Chamberlain were wingers on support, I would say, and when Ramsey played he came a lot more inside and be a IW.

On the left Alexis would play as he well pleased, but was positioned more inside, as a IF on support, and Giroud was a DLF on support.

The full backs I would say they were wing backs on support, and, on occasion they would be overlapping.

Yeah this was more or less how I had the team setup back then. Sanchez played on attack because when things went well for arsenal he was less involved in buildup. I think the support duty better tracks his behavior when things weren't going as well.

The AP on attack was more for fitting the tactic into FM in a successful way. All 4 on support can just get too sterile.

As for results: They were very good back then, winning the league and such. I'd assume something similar would still work well but my current 4231 is different, to take account of the players I now have

[Experienced Defender]

I cannot tell you what's the reason for the difference between your 2 seasons in terms of results. Instead, I can only tell you what I personally see as (potentially) problematic in your tactic. 

Defense-wise, there are 2 major problems IMHO:

- with all 4 wide players on attack duties, your flanks are probably too exposed, especially the left one where you have a roaming runner role in the midfield (BBM), which means there is no defensive cover on that side

- you use hard tackling (get stuck in) while playing with a higher D-line along with having less than optimal compactness (i.e. the distance between DL and LOE)

Both issues are additionally compounded by the fact that you use a top-heavy formation without a DM (4231). 

Attacking-wise, when I look at your in-possession TIs, including the team mentality (attacking), I am not sure what exactly you are trying to achieve in terms of playing style. Because on one hand you are using possession-friendly instructions such as PoD, shorter passing and WBiB, but then at the same time you mix them with higher tempo and attacking team mentality, both of which encourage fast attacking play. So your style of play looks fairly undefined to me. Note that the mentality affects all other team instructions, but does not define your style of play (although it can influence it indirectly). 

In my book, the key component of a good tactic is the setup of roles and duties. It needs to be well-balanced from both defensive and attacking perspectives (which yours is not for the reasons I already listed). When it comes to the attacking phase, you need to think how your roles and duties interact with one another in terms of space creation and utilization as well as ball-recycling when needed. Regarding defensive solidity, along with the aforementioned vertical compactness (DL/LOE distance), you need to think about who and how is supposed to provide defensive cover for more attack-minded teammates (most notably fullbacks/wing-backs and midfielders). In both considerations, (the type of) your formation plays an important part.