known issue Key Tackles, Clear Cut Chances, Dribbles, Key Passes etc. All Broken!

[jdmk88]

I've seen a number of topics highlighting individual stats that are not being registered correctly. I just wanted to makes sure that the SI Team is fully aware of the extent of this problem.

Firstly, the following is occurring in EVERY save since the most recent update. The issue seems to be occurring in leagues that include a human player (are running at the highest detail). 

Key Tackles - Not being registered in leagues with a human player
Key Passes - Much higher in leagues with a human player (huge discrepancy!!) 
Clear Cut Chances - Much lower in leagues with a human player (huge discrepancy!!) 
Crosses Attempted - Much higher in leagues with a human player
Dribbles Made - Much lower in leagues with a human player (huge discrepancy!!) 
Key Headers - Much higher in leagues with a human player 
Clearances - Much higher in leagues with a human player

I may be missing out on a couple, but these bugs are clear as day when you scan through the 'detailed stats' of each league. 

I have also noticed that player match ratings have been a lot harsher since the update and I can't help but think this has something to do with the above stats not being registered properly.

Of course, if it's impossible for your defenders to make a key tackle, near impossible for your centre mid to create a clear cut chance, and your wingers can't dribble - it's going to influence match ratings. 

I can produce screenshots and my game file if necessary but literally everyone can produce these same results on any save. As mentioned above, just scroll through the 'Detailed Stats' of each league and compare them to your own league. 

[jdmk88]

Would really appreciate some acknowledgment of this issue. Haven't been able to play the game since I've noticed these problems. The issue is clearly related to actions in the match engine not being picked up by the stats.

[aritra14]

Crosses from free kicks and corners are counted as key passes. My winger who's on corner duty usually ends the game with 6+ key passes, while my playmaker who actually makes stuff happen on the pitch gets maybe 3.

[Neil Brock]

We're aware there's a difference between the output of the full match engine (when playing in a full detail league - eg with a human manager) and the quick match engine (a league with no detail level). 

With the quick match engine, as the matches are simulations it's much easier to output close to real life stats as the matches aren't being played out - they're autogenerated based on a number of factors including team and player reputation, ability etc. You can change the detail level of each league via the FM -> Detail Level screen, however the more leagues you have with full detail, the more matches it'll need to play out and the slower it'll be to calculate and process. 

The full match engine takes a huge amount into account and requires a significant amount of fine tuning to make it balanced, enjoyable and reflective of real life. This has always been the case in Football Manager titles and is not specific to the most recent update. We are of course always looking at the balancing and as always will strive to make it as accurate as possible which includes the balancing of some of the stats like key tackles as raised above.

Can also confirm we are aware of an issue in relation to the player ratings which we're investigating with the aim of addressing it when we're able to.

Thanks. 

[jdmk88]

6 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

We're aware there's a difference between the output of the full match engine (when playing in a full detail league - eg with a human manager) and the quick match engine (a league with no detail level). 

With the quick match engine, as the matches are simulations it's much easier to output close to real life stats as the matches aren't being played out - they're autogenerated based on a number of factors including team and player reputation, ability etc. You can change the detail level of each league via the FM -> Detail Level screen, however the more leagues you have with full detail, the more matches it'll need to play out and the slower it'll be to calculate and process. 

The full match engine takes a huge amount into account and requires a significant amount of fine tuning to make it balanced, enjoyable and reflective of real life. This has always been the case in Football Manager titles and is not specific to the most recent update. We are of course always looking at the balancing and as always will strive to make it as accurate as possible which includes the balancing of some of the stats like key tackles as raised above.

Can also confirm we are aware of an issue in relation to the player ratings which we're investigating with the aim of addressing it when we're able to.

Thanks. 

I'm sorry Neil, I don't buy this. Football manager has never had such huge discrepancies between leagues with different levels of detail. 

My league (League One).



Another league...



My league (Dribbles per game)



Another league (dribbles per game)



My League (crosses attempted)



Another league (crosses attempted)



My League (Key Passes)



Another league Key Passes

 
I could go on and on, check your own saved game. These are abnormal stats in human leagues, one would argue that the leagues with less detail look more realistic?! 

I wouldn't say I'm particularly tech savvy but I think the problem is fairly obvious. Stats are not being picked up properly from the match engine. Also explaining why the forum is full of bugs relating to match analysis not recognising key tackles, clear cut chances etc. etc.

It's all linked together...

Example.

A key tackle occurs in the match engine, it is not recognised in the stats and therefore not picked up in the analysis. This in turn effects the player ratings and produces these abnormal league stats in human leagues. 

The same occurs for dribbles, clear cut chances, key passes etc.

I'm not trying to be d!ck here. This is the best fm I've played in ages and that says a lot given the circumstances in which the game was put together, I'm just trying to help.

[Tyburn]

Are you suggesting a stealth hotfix?

[jdmk88]

23 hours ago, jdmk88 said:

I'm sorry Neil, I don't buy this. Football manager has never had such huge discrepancies between leagues with different levels of detail. 

My league (League One).



Another league...



My league (Dribbles per game)



Another league (dribbles per game)



My League (crosses attempted)



Another league (crosses attempted)



My League (Key Passes)



Another league Key Passes

 
I could go on and on, check your own saved game. These are abnormal stats in human leagues, one would argue that the leagues with less detail look more realistic?! 

I wouldn't say I'm particularly tech savvy but I think the problem is fairly obvious. Stats are not being picked up properly from the match engine. Also explaining why the forum is full of bugs relating to match analysis not recognising key tackles, clear cut chances etc. etc.

It's all linked together...

Example.

A key tackle occurs in the match engine, it is not recognised in the stats and therefore not picked up in the analysis. This in turn effects the player ratings and produces these abnormal league stats in human leagues. 

The same occurs for dribbles, clear cut chances, key passes etc.

I'm not trying to be d!ck here. This is the best fm I've played in ages and that says a lot given the circumstances in which the game was put together, I'm just trying to help.

 

I would appreciate a response to the above or at least acknowledgement that this is an issue...

[Tyburn]

The thread has been marked as a known issue ... so ...

Edited January 7, 2021 by Tyburn

[jdmk88]

1 minute ago, Tyburn said:

The thread has been marked as a known issue ... so ...

Was marked 'known issue' prior to my fat message with screenshots. My fault I suppose, should have included it all in the initial post. 

[Obaaa]

Key tackles still aren't being registered after the update. So can't imagine that any of the other stats based issues have been addressed either.

Set piece takers getting a 'key' pass every set-piece, completely inflating those numbers...

Edited January 7, 2021 by Obaaa

[Zeze]

23 minutes ago, Obaaa said:

Los tackles clave aún no se registran después de la actualización. Entonces, no puedo imaginar que ninguno de los otros problemas basados en estadísticas se haya abordado tampoco.

Any other improvement in other scores?

[Obaaa]

Through three Ligue 1 matches:

 

Literally only there because they are taking set pieces and they get registered as a key pass every time it connects with a teammate. Doing any kind of stats based analytics to judge performance or recruitment is still completely redundant.

It's been marked as a known issue but a shame not in this update.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Obaaa

[jdmk88]

On 06/01/2021 at 17:46, jdmk88 said:

I'm sorry Neil, I don't buy this. Football manager has never had such huge discrepancies between leagues with different levels of detail. 

My league (League One).



Another league...



My league (Dribbles per game)



Another league (dribbles per game)



My League (crosses attempted)



Another league (crosses attempted)



My League (Key Passes)



Another league Key Passes

 
I could go on and on, check your own saved game. These are abnormal stats in human leagues, one would argue that the leagues with less detail look more realistic?! 

I wouldn't say I'm particularly tech savvy but I think the problem is fairly obvious. Stats are not being picked up properly from the match engine. Also explaining why the forum is full of bugs relating to match analysis not recognising key tackles, clear cut chances etc. etc.

It's all linked together...

Example.

A key tackle occurs in the match engine, it is not recognised in the stats and therefore not picked up in the analysis. This in turn effects the player ratings and produces these abnormal league stats in human leagues. 

The same occurs for dribbles, clear cut chances, key passes etc.

I'm not trying to be d!ck here. This is the best fm I've played in ages and that says a lot given the circumstances in which the game was put together, I'm just trying to help.

Hi @Neil Brock , never got a reply to the above post? It's an ongoing issue after the recent update. 

The match engine is not registering stats properly. Thus why there are so many topics in this forum about match analysis being incorrect...

[Jorge666]

On 05/01/2021 at 00:53, jdmk88 said:

I've seen a number of topics highlighting individual stats that are not being registered correctly. I just wanted to makes sure that the SI Team is fully aware of the extent of this problem.

Firstly, the following is occurring in EVERY save since the most recent update. The issue seems to be occurring in leagues that include a human player (are running at the highest detail). 

Key Tackles - Not being registered in leagues with a human player
Key Passes - Much higher in leagues with a human player (huge discrepancy!!) 
Clear Cut Chances - Much lower in leagues with a human player (huge discrepancy!!) 
Crosses Attempted - Much higher in leagues with a human player
Dribbles Made - Much lower in leagues with a human player (huge discrepancy!!) 
Key Headers - Much higher in leagues with a human player 
Clearances - Much higher in leagues with a human player

I may be missing out on a couple, but these bugs are clear as day when you scan through the 'detailed stats' of each league. 

I have also noticed that player match ratings have been a lot harsher since the update and I can't help but think this has something to do with the above stats not being registered properly.

Of course, if it's impossible for your defenders to make a key tackle, near impossible for your centre mid to create a clear cut chance, and your wingers can't dribble - it's going to influence match ratings. 

I can produce screenshots and my game file if necessary but literally everyone can produce these same results on any save. As mentioned above, just scroll through the 'Detailed Stats' of each league and compare them to your own league. 

Makes me not even want to play and yes I'm taking my ball home

[opgen22]

I really do wonder why this has not been put into focus earlier, I can only say that I noticed this at Beta Day 1, which seemed a game breaking bug to me. As no one cared, I thought I had to be the only one. It is really really sad to see and basically held me off from playing at all, because FM always was a number's game. As I've always been looking into various statistics, I've never found such a huge discrepancy before. It's such a huge thing as it affects every aspect of the game. How can I enjoy the new features like the 'hexagon' or those cartesian coordinate systems if they're completely irrelevant due to completely unbalanced statistics? One can only hope that this still get an update... 

 

[Platinum]

This bug basically makes data driven decisions redundant, a big shame. This years release has been riddled with bugs like this.

[janrzm]

This is almost worse than having a bad ME. You can’t “unsee” it once you notice the discrepancies. Sure plenty will ignore it but personally it devalues the game immeasurably for me.

[Jorge666]

To be fair my fullbacks have been getting better ratings since the last update but nothing to do with key tackles as they're still not registered

[janrzm]

The bottom line is stats are everything in modern football and FM has rightly given us stats in game. For them to be this broken so long after release is farcical. Fundamental to how many play, difficult to ignore even if you aren’t interested.

As I said yesterday, you can’t take anything that works in this game for granted.

[Platinum]

 

On 09/01/2021 at 21:37, janrzm said:

This is almost worse than having a bad ME. You can’t “unsee” it once you notice the discrepancies. Sure plenty will ignore it but personally it devalues the game immeasurably for me.

Same here, it completely takes away from what the modern manager does, and yes once you know about it its a total immersion killer, but also on top of that you can't reliably make decisions based on stats

[Jack Joyce]

Hey all, apologies for not replying earlier but I was on Christmas break (trying to get some rest in after a difficult year :D).

There's a few different things here that I can see:

1.  Player ratings being low for fullbacks - This will have been completely unrelated to key tackles and has since been tweaked.
2.  Key Tackles not being tracked - All stats were redefined this year, and key tackles was one of them. It is now defined as a tackle that directly prevents a clear-cut chance opportunity (with an xG of over 0.3), which is very rare. We're looking at ways to make this a bit more lenient but it is being tracked, it's just very rare!
3.  Stats discrepencies between FME and QME - We will look at ways to improve this to bring them closer together, but in reality there will always be some difference between the two as a fully played match will always be at least slightly different to a quick ME simulated match. If you want stats that are 100% directly comparable you can use the detail level menu from within your save game to set your desired leagues to be played in full detail (obviously this does use extra processing so be aware of that). This will ensure that the selected matches are fully played as opposed to being simulated.

Cheers,

Jack

[pejocho]

hace 30 minutos, Jack Joyce dijo:

 

1.  Player ratings being low for fullbacks - This will have been completely unrelated to key tackles and has since been tweaked 

Thanks for your answer. One question, the low ratings that strikers and wingers are getting, in comparison between QME and FME (defenders are OK after the update) are currently under review? 

I give you the comparative I made. 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by pejocho

[Jack Joyce]

2 hours ago, pejocho said:

Thanks for your answer. One question, the low ratings that strikers and wingers are getting, in comparison between QME and FME (defenders are OK after the update) are currently under review? 

I give you the comparative I made. 

 

Will have a look, but at a glance it seems like it'd be related to bringing the QME and FME stats closer together, which will require some fairly big longer term changes. Will make a note of it

[Mcfc1894]

3 hours ago, Jack Joyce said:

Hey all, apologies for not replying earlier but I was on Christmas break (trying to get some rest in after a difficult year :D).

There's a few different things here that I can see:

1.  Player ratings being low for fullbacks - This will have been completely unrelated to key tackles and has since been tweaked.
2.  Key Tackles not being tracked - All stats were redefined this year, and key tackles was one of them. It is now defined as a tackle that directly prevents a clear-cut chance opportunity (with an xG of over 0.3), which is very rare. We're looking at ways to make this a bit more lenient but it is being tracked, it's just very rare!
3.  Stats discrepencies between FME and QME - We will look at ways to improve this to bring them closer together, but in reality there will always be some difference between the two as a fully played match will always be at least slightly different to a quick ME simulated match. If you want stats that are 100% directly comparable you can use the detail level menu from within your save game to set your desired leagues to be played in full detail (obviously this does use extra processing so be aware of that). This will ensure that the selected matches are fully played as opposed to being simulated.

Cheers,

Jack

Anything on the Key passes being much higher than in real life seem like Corners are counted more than they should and also stats are different normal game stats to analyst stats 

[Jack Joyce]

35 minutes ago, Mcfc1894 said:

Anything on the Key passes being much higher than in real life seem like Corners are counted more than they should and also stats are different normal game stats to analyst stats 

Our stats are defined in the way that we'd prefer basically, in some cases our definitions will differ from some major stats providers. We intentionally wanted key passes to include passes from set pieces in this case.

[Sneaky Pete]

9 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

Our stats are defined in the way that we'd prefer basically, in some cases our definitions will differ from some major stats providers. We intentionally wanted key passes to include passes from set pieces in this case.

I get the underlying idea here, but surely the current result - any arbitrary set piece taker being near the top of the charts for key passes, even if their deliveries aren't actually resulting in dangerous situations - can't be intended.

Before this change I would use key passes to find deeper-lying players that make a lot of pre-assist passes, e.g. releasing fullbacks or wingers into space. Now it's difficult to tell whether the player actual makes meaningful passes from open play, or whether they're just a corner merchant. The change effectively gives me less information, rather than more.

[Mcfc1894]

10 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

Our stats are defined in the way that we'd prefer basically, in some cases our definitions will differ from some major stats providers. We intentionally wanted key passes to include passes from set pieces in this case.

Thanks for the response just feels like it makes it a bit harder to Judge how creative the player actually is . It would help if there was a stat which shown open play and none open play stats but i guess that's more of a feature Request.

[Jack Joyce]

Just now, Mcfc1894 said:

Thanks for the response just feels like it makes it a bit harder to Judge how creative the player actually is . It would help if there was a stat which shown open play and none open play stats but i guess that's more of a feature Request.

Please feel free to post that feature request in the suggestions forum, it's certainly something we can think about adding.

[BuzzR]

4 hours ago, Jack Joyce said:

Key Tackles not being tracked - All stats were redefined this year, and key tackles was one of them. It is now defined as a tackle that directly prevents a clear-cut chance opportunity (with an xG of over 0.3), which is very rare. We're looking at ways to make this a bit more lenient but it is being tracked, it's just very rare!

Hi. This could be understandable if the leagues without human managers produce the same or close numbers .. but the reality is that they do not.  (Playing in Cymru North.)

[Davidog]

1 hour ago, Sneaky Pete said:

I get the underlying idea here, but surely the current result - any arbitrary set piece taker being near the top of the charts for key passes, even if their deliveries aren't actually resulting in dangerous situations - can't be intended.

Before this change I would use key passes to find deeper-lying players that make a lot of pre-assist passes, e.g. releasing fullbacks or wingers into space. Now it's difficult to tell whether the player actual makes meaningful passes from open play, or whether they're just a corner merchant. The change effectively gives me less information, rather than more.

I'm sure the key pass stat didn't even cover what you were using it for before anyway. I get what you were trying to use it for, that should be added in the game as its a highly popular stat but however I'm sure a key pass in game is the last pass or cross before a shot on target.

[Obaaa]

When I saw someone from SI replying to this I thought hallelujah it's being addressed.

And it's being written off as something that is intended!! Unbelievable.

You literally can't scout anyone based on key passes any more then. Key tackles? Forget it because apparently nothing is a key tackle (but in the other match engine everything is?). Don't get me started on what is or isn't regarded as a clear cut chance - I've seen chances from a yard tapped in that apparently aren't.

Absolute madness. I've bought the game this year based on not knowing about this, next year if it's in the beta there is no chance I purchase. Literally no chance. Anyone else who uses the game like one big spreadsheet take note.

[Davidog]

1 hour ago, Obaaa said:

When I saw someone from SI replying to this I thought hallelujah it's being addressed.

And it's being written off as something that is intended!! Unbelievable.

You literally can't scout anyone based on key passes any more then. Key tackles? Forget it because apparently nothing is a key tackle (but in the other match engine everything is?). Don't get me started on what is or isn't regarded as a clear cut chance - I've seen chances from a yard tapped in that apparently aren't.

Absolute madness. I've bought the game this year based on not knowing about this, next year if it's in the beta there is no chance I purchase. Literally no chance. Anyone else who uses the game like one big spreadsheet take note.

You and me both my man but in fairness they did give us a explanation one I don't like and one that makes me think twice about purchasing more additions but hey ho.

That was one stat that played a big part into when I was looking to sign a playmaker for example but if things such as corners are classed as a key pass it just takes away so much unfortunately. 

Also from your example a chance from a yard that has been tapped in is a goal so will count as an assist for the passer and goal for the scorer. A CCC is a opportunity that should most likely have been scored but for whatever reason wasn't.    

[Obaaa]

23 minutes ago, Davidog said:

You and me both my man but in fairness they did give us a explanation one I don't like and one that makes me think twice about purchasing more additions but hey ho.

That was one stat that played a big part into when I was looking to sign a playmaker for example but if things such as corners are classed as a key pass it just takes away so much unfortunately. 

Also from your example a chance from a yard that has been tapped in is a goal so will count as an assist for the passer and goal for the scorer. A CCC is a opportunity that should most likely have been scored but for whatever reason wasn't.    

It should also count as a CCC and a CCC created by the assister. But it doesn't so what's the point in looking at those stats when they don't register anyway.

Just disillusioned with the direction of this game when the responses are that these statistical issues are intended. Funny thing is they added xG this year to further enhance the number of statistics in the game and we, the users, end up with actually less useable stats.

[Platinum]

22 hours ago, Jack Joyce said:

 

1.  Stats discrepencies between FME and QME - We will look at ways to improve this to bring them closer together, but in reality there will always be some difference between the two as a fully played match will always be at least slightly different to a quick ME simulated match. If you want stats that are 100% directly comparable you can use the detail level menu from within your save game to set your desired leagues to be played in full detail (obviously this does use extra processing so be aware of that). This will ensure that the selected matches are fully played as opposed to being simulated.

Instead of making the QME have similar stats to real life could you make it have similar stats to the FME so that they are at least comparable? I think most people would find that to be a better compromise as to be honest I dont think people care too much if the stats in other leagues are realistic or not if the stats in their own league arent realistic in the first place.

If you do it this way then as the FME gets closer to having real life stats when you improve it, the QME will also change with it.

Wondering what your thoughts are on that and if it's something that you've tried doing anyway?

Edited January 12, 2021 by francis#17

[Jack Joyce]

12 hours ago, francis#17 said:

Instead of making the QME have similar stats to real life could you make it have similar stats to the FME so that they are at least comparable? I think most people would find that to be a better compromise as to be honest I dont think people care too much if the stats in other leagues are realistic or not if the stats in their own league arent realistic in the first place.

If you do it this way then as the FME gets closer to having real life stats when you improve it, the QME will also change with it.

Wondering what your thoughts are on that and if it's something that you've tried doing anyway?

This is definitely something we're investigating, but a change like that is fairly fundamental and would take some time.

[BuzzR]

6 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

This is definitely something we're investigating, but a change like that is fairly fundamental and would take some time.

Are you saying that the game will be in this state for an undetermined period of time, with a huge discrepancy of statistical data produced by human v non-human leagues ? There is no patch in sight for this ?!

I mean there is nothing else more relevant in your product but statistical data! Everything is related to what has a player produced in a match/ a number of matches / a season etc.

How did this get a green light for release back in November ?

After 2 month you guys are shrugging your shoulders and say " hey , it takes time .. " . Is this for real now ?!

 

[DP]

The issue re key tackles is not a QME V FME discussion if there are differences that just involve the league with the human player surely?

Seeing 0 key tackles when there are key tackles in other FME leagues is an issue surely? 

[Obaaa]

9 minutes ago, BuzzR said:

Are you saying that the game will be in this state for an undetermined period of time, with a huge discrepancy of statistical data produced by human v non-human leagues ? There is no patch in sight for this ?!

I mean there is nothing else more relevant in your product but statistical data! Everything is related to what has a player produced in a match/ a number of matches / a season etc.

How did this get a green light for release back in November ?

After 2 month you guys are shrugging your shoulders and say " hey , it takes time .. " . Is this for real now ?!

 

Baffling isn't it. Amazing level of "shrug shoulders and sort next year". 

[gabka9899]

Damn, I just checked some stats in my save...it's worse than I expected(and I'm excel+tableau for scouting so stats are key). Looks like it's time to comeback to FM17, last not broken :/

[Platinum]

31 minutes ago, DP said:

The issue re key tackles is not a QME V FME discussion if there are differences that just involve the league with the human player surely?

Seeing 0 key tackles when there are key tackles in other FME leagues is an issue surely? 

The key issue is in all FME leagues. 

A league using a FME isnt the same as a playable league

[Platinum]

23 minutes ago, gabka9899 said:

Damn, I just checked some stats in my save...it's worse than I expected(and I'm excel+tableau for scouting so stats are key). Looks like it's time to comeback to FM17, last not broken :/

You'll actually see that this has occurred in all FM versions. It's just that in FM 21 it seems to occur with more stats than in previous games 

[Platinum]

1 hour ago, Jack Joyce said:

This is definitely something we're investigating, but a change like that is fairly fundamental and would take some time.

Thanks for the response, yeah I can see that it would take some time.

[mhaffy]

On 11/01/2021 at 11:07, Jack Joyce said:

Hey all, apologies for not replying earlier but I was on Christmas break (trying to get some rest in after a difficult year :D).

There's a few different things here that I can see:

1.  Player ratings being low for fullbacks - This will have been completely unrelated to key tackles and has since been tweaked.
2.  Key Tackles not being tracked - All stats were redefined this year, and key tackles was one of them. It is now defined as a tackle that directly prevents a clear-cut chance opportunity (with an xG of over 0.3), which is very rare. We're looking at ways to make this a bit more lenient but it is being tracked, it's just very rare!
3.  Stats discrepencies between FME and QME - We will look at ways to improve this to bring them closer together, but in reality there will always be some difference between the two as a fully played match will always be at least slightly different to a quick ME simulated match. If you want stats that are 100% directly comparable you can use the detail level menu from within your save game to set your desired leagues to be played in full detail (obviously this does use extra processing so be aware of that). This will ensure that the selected matches are fully played as opposed to being simulated.

Cheers,

Jack

Thanks for the feedback Jack. regarding Key tackles; iIhear what you say but this does need addressing asap. Key tackles are more than rare in FME....more like non existent. I have played FM since start/Championship Manager days and tend to focus on one long career save. Played a couple more Chelsea save premier league games since update but have now stopped until player ratings, key tackles, and stats discrepancies issues are fixed. I am currently 24 games into 1st season in Premier League and have just had a look at the Premier League Detailed Player Stats. For Defending, Key Tackles after 24 games there have been ZERO in the Premier League. No player in any team has made a key tackle. This cannot be right and is far from being consistent with QME and reality.The definition for Key tackle in FME clearly needs addressing to produce sensible statistics. If Key Tackles remains based upon being a tackle that directly prevents a clear cut opportunity with an xG>Y then surely SI have enough data to know what level Y needs to be reduced to so that Key Tackle statistics are sensible. Y at 0.3 is obviously way too high.....

I hope hotfix comes out soon so that I can resume playing.....

Edited January 12, 2021 by mhaffy

[jdmk88]

On 11/01/2021 at 11:07, Jack Joyce said:

Hey all, apologies for not replying earlier but I was on Christmas break (trying to get some rest in after a difficult year :D).

There's a few different things here that I can see:

1.  Player ratings being low for fullbacks - This will have been completely unrelated to key tackles and has since been tweaked.
2.  Key Tackles not being tracked - All stats were redefined this year, and key tackles was one of them. It is now defined as a tackle that directly prevents a clear-cut chance opportunity (with an xG of over 0.3), which is very rare. We're looking at ways to make this a bit more lenient but it is being tracked, it's just very rare!
3.  Stats discrepencies between FME and QME - We will look at ways to improve this to bring them closer together, but in reality there will always be some difference between the two as a fully played match will always be at least slightly different to a quick ME simulated match. If you want stats that are 100% directly comparable you can use the detail level menu from within your save game to set your desired leagues to be played in full detail (obviously this does use extra processing so be aware of that). This will ensure that the selected matches are fully played as opposed to being simulated.

Cheers,

Jack

Thanks for the reply @Jack Joyce, I hope you had a nice Christmas break. 

1. Fair enough, I have noticed an improvement to player ratings since the recent update. However, are you saying key tackles do not impact a players match ratings? 

2. Oh c'mon...have you looked at any of the screenshots on this forum, on twitter or YouTube? Even on your own saves?  Key tackles are broken, I haven't seen a single key tackle in two seasons. How much evidence do people need to provide?

3. I appreciate that there will always be some discrepancies between FME and QME but once again, these are not minor discrepancies and this was not an issue on previous FM's. I've already provided several screenshots showing this...

Clear Cut Chances FME



Clear Cut Chances QME



Crosses Attempted FME



Crosses Attempted QME



Key Passes FME



Key Passes QME



These are not small discrepancies between the FME and QME, the difference is HUGE!

I understand times are tough right now (for everyone) and understand the circumstances in which this game was put together but this is all getting a bit frustrating. The evidence is there, if you can't fix it any time soon, fair enough. Just don't make out that the game is supposed to be like this.

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by jdmk88
wrong screenshot

[yanloup64]

 

Namecode: Hoofball. Or maybe Table Tennis   

[Jorge666]

Since the update my fullbacks seem to be getting better ratings but my central mids seem to have dropped dramatically

[mhaffy]

3 hours ago, jdmk88 said:

Ngl, return to this post every couple of days after work to see if there's been any acknowledgement from Si staff. At least change the marker from 'known issue' to 'issue we're choosing to ignore'.

So do I.....looks like this may be only version of FM that I "give up playing" over the last 20 years....cannot believe stats inconsistencies that have been flagged, including zero key tackles issue, (in a stats driven game) were not picked up during testing....very disappointing. Hoping that fix does come sooner rather than later but who know given response so far. 24 games through 1st season is as far as I have got so far.... will carry on checking for hotfix, bug updates daily and find other things to do in the meantime...

Edited January 15, 2021 by mhaffy

[Platinum]

I want to start by saying I really appreciate the work SI put in every year with the games and I am always rooting for them and I'm a big fan of the games. However what is clear to me is that the decisions that led to this issue were not being made with the core goal of improving the users experience being at the forefront. This could have been prevented by taking an approach that keeps the users experience and the core of the game being a modern football simulation, which is now a stats driven industry at the highest level, as a core value.  I'll go through an exercise below: 

Idea: I want to redefine how statistics are counted so that they revolve around xG but it means key tackles will be extremely rare. Matches in other leagues wont have this issue and key tackles will be common in them. 

Response: Lets keep this redefined statistics method in development until the key tackle issue is solved. Key tackles are in the top 2 or 3 stats useful in knowing which defender to buy and we will be handicapping the users by them not having access to this information. On top of this users wont be able to know if a defender in another league is better at making important tackles than a defender in their own team. As this is a football simulation this is not realistic for the user and they will be getting less information than they have in previous editions. 

Idea: I want to define a key tackle as a tackle that stopped a clear cut chance with an xG of x amount or less

Response: if our approach to key tackles means it has to stop a clear cut chance, which in game is a chance close to the goal, then it means only defenders will register key tackles. This will mean the user is not able to identify midfielders who make "key tackles" that stop counter attacks higher up the pitch. This is less of an issue but something to keep in mind. 

Idea: The change in how we define statistics means that FME and QME statistics will be very different

Response: We want our users to be able to make data driven decisions, just like a real manager does, so let's either make the QME mimic the stats in the FME instead of making it mimic real life statistics,  or let's leave the statistics system as it was in previous editions until we solve the issue. It is important our users can compare stats between leagues so that they can identify transfer targets. As this is a football simulation this is not realistic for the user and they will be not be able to use stats as effectively as they could in previous editions. 

Idea: I want to change key passes to include set piece takers but this results in set piece takers being at the top of the key passes metric and it also means key passes are quadrupled in the FME compared to the QME

Response: We have two issues here which mean we should leave key passes as they are. Issue 1: users wont be able to distinguish between good set piece takers and creative defense splitting pass players e.g. Sigurdsson and De Bruyne. This will severely handicap the player as they will not be able to identify players that could solve an issue of the team not being creative enough and it also means the user wont know which of their own players is the most creative or is the best set piece taker. 
Issue 2: the user wont be able to identify transfer targets from other leagues because the key passes are not on the same scale in other leagues
As this is a football simulation this is not realistic for the user and they will be getting less information than they have in previous editions.

Edited January 16, 2021 by francis#17

[bielsadidnothingwrong]

Here's screenshots of my statistical discrepancies @Jack Joyce, you mean to tell me you're satisfied with this end product? 

The first are the key passes in my league, Vanarama South. As you can see, Jacob Mendy lead the league with 193 key passes. Pretty decent work by Mendy I say, especially compared with the Vanarama North leader's 144. Looking at how he compared with the Premier League, Mendy even bests Kevin de Bruyne! I am truly blown away by his performance, but how does he compare to league leaders elsewhere? Jacob Mendy scorched the league leaders of La Liga, Bundesliga, and Ligue 1 combined! I wonder how much these results mirror reality... KDB had 131 key passes last season. While 182 vastly eclipses it, its not that far off. Thomas Muller last season crafted 82 key passes, but digital Thomas Muller was shackled by the match sim engine and could only muster a dull 28. Yikes. Not only do the stats look awful when compared to other leagues in the game, they look even worse here.

I'm sorry, but to dismissively consider these differences as mere "statistic discrepancies" is an insult to your customer base. These are HUGE flaws with BASIC features in the game. While none of us expect you to talk-down SI or the developers, acknowledging the severity of this issue would at least buy you some good-will with us.

It is infuriating that you at SI decided incorporating xG in FM21 was more important than some other "legacy" features which have remained broken since the beta release. Things like analyst reports, player heat maps, passing networks, player-count dropoff, the youth intake bug, and now this have all had some explanation related to the introduction of xG. Clearly, SI had ambitious visions for FM21 that included successfully incorporating it in the game, but unfortunately you all failed at implementing them bug free due to COVID or otherwise. Honestly, that's quite alright, however, you send people on here to explain away all these legitimate issues as if there's something we the players are doing wrong (" If you want stats that are 100% directly comparable you can use the detail level menu from within your save game to set your desired leagues to be played in full detail (obviously this does use extra processing so be aware of that). This will ensure that the selected matches are fully played as opposed to being simulated.") rather than acknowledging that there have been many unforeseen consequences implementing xG into the statistical system that has ultimately caused you to release a product which your customer base has bore the brunt of finding major flaws (some of which are obvious within an hour of playing and some, like this, that come later). 

I half-expect this critique to be removed for its honesty, but I am not going to treat you all with a light touch since that apparently gets met with disingenuous replies that do not sufficiently address the concerns of the posters and instead seek to place the blame on us for having expectations that the FME and QME produce similar results.

Edited January 17, 2021 by bielsadidnothingwrong

[Rosey Palmer]

I brought my team up from Germany's 3rd league to Bundesliga, and each season, I wondered why "dribbles per game" occurred about 10% as often as in other leagues, and clear cut chances seemed a lot less common. 

Reading through this thread, I guess that human league's stats will always be totally different from others? I had never noticed this in previous versions of FM.  

How much does this affect the development of our players? Can midfielders develop properly if they aren't getting credit for dribbles and tackles? 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Rosey Palmer