Managers view of attributes should be based on coaches and scouts JPA instead of the ground truth attributes

[Platinum]

I think the idea in the game that everyone can see the 'true' attributes of a player once they've been scouted is wrong, as really the best we could hope for in real life is to have he scouts opinion on what their true attributes are. In fact we all have different opinions on players, and that includes the best scouts, and a big part of football culture are the debates about who is the better player. To incorporate this into the game the attributes we see of a player should be what a coach/scout believes (maybe with the view of seeing the average of your best scouts/coaches to avoid confusion) instead of a ground truth which really no one would know.

Of course the match engine, training and development would use the ground truth attribute values but this shouldn't be seen by managers or AI managers. Under the hood the coaches/scouts evaluation of a players attributes would be based on their own Judging Current Ability attribute and the players ground truth attributes.

This would bring in more variation into who we as the manager think is the best player and mean we have to use our own judgement much more. One of your scouts might think a player is an elite dribbler (value of 17 for dribbling) while another might think hes just a very good dribbler (value of 15 for dribbling). This could then lead to me as a manager watching highlights of the player so that I can judge him for myself. Its much more realistic like this and it would help satisfy the growing number of players looking for a more realistic simulation.

Another, likely easier, way to accomplish this is to always have attributes use the 'range' type notation. So when you have no knowledge of a player their dribbling would be '-', then when you first scout the player the dribbling could become '13-18' and then at 100% scouting it changes to '15-17'. Players for your own club might have smaller ranges like '15-16' as you get to see them every day in training, but we shouldnt know a ground truth because everyones opinion is different. The same could also apply to personalities, but maybe to a lesser degree.

Edited January 10, 2021 by francis#17

[Junkhead]

Agree fully - I find no attributes skins slightly too restrictive overall but like this idea. A LLaMa would never look at CA or PA, but if I can see everything else as a "true" attribute then I might as well.

This works with stars in reports, so something similar for attributes gets my vote.

[SkorpEN]

I would like also option to judge staff ability based on best current staff ability, coz it is also seems not that real that we know all coaches parameters precisely. So if your stuff is good in judging ability you got good estimates, but if not than you just see rough estimated range.

[Platinum]

15 hours ago, Junkhead said:

Agree fully - I find no attributes skins slightly too restrictive overall but like this idea. A LLaMa would never look at CA or PA, but if I can see everything else as a "true" attribute then I might as well.

This works with stars in reports, so something similar for attributes gets my vote.

Yeah the no attribute skins are the opposite extreme and are also unrealistic. The coach reports are clearly meant as an addition to attributes and are not detailed enough by themselves. The solution I proposed is a happy medium and is the most realistic in my opinion

 

[Platinum]

57 minutes ago, SkorpEN said:

I would like also option to judge staff ability based on best current staff ability, coz it is also seems not that real that we know all coaches parameters precisely. So if your stuff is good in judging ability you got good estimates, but if not than you just see rough estimated range.

I hadnt thought about this but it is true that having complete knowledge of how good a staff member is that you dont employ is odd, and its not like you can scout a staff member.

I dont think using a 'Judging Staff Ability' attribute is realistic either though because your staff members wont even know who most other staff members from other clubs are and its not like they can scout them. The more realistic option is probably a dossier on what the staff member has achieved such as 'improved attacking attributes of players at club', 'worked particularly well with the youngsters', 'helped improve tactical familiarity of the players' , but this would be a complete overhaul (I would support this though)

[TokyoWanderer]

If I can play devil's advocate here, I would say the high number of attributes per player and the complexity of the match engine reduce the need for this fog of war you want. If on this thread we were to compare a given player's dribbling ability based on his attributes, I'm sure we would arrive to different valuations depending on how we think the different attributes impact dribbling. The key here is that we don't know exactly how attributes impact what happens on the pitch.

For example, you may see high dribbling and agility attributes and conclude the player is a great dribbler, while I may judge he is average based on this hypotethical player's average speed, flair and balance. These differences in valuation would be even greater if we are judging the whole player. For me, the best proof of how this works is the fact that in every team I've managed I've been surprised by players performing much better or much worse than I thought they would based on their attributes.

To take my argument one step further, it could be argued that most attributes in isolation can be judged in a fairly objective way. You can definetely do it with the physical attributes and most of the technical attributes. 

What I think the game needs is for player attributes to fluctuate much more than they do and for scouting of players in other teams to be MUCH harder than it currently is. In that way you would have more cases where you buy a player thinking he is very good and ends up being bad, which obviously happens a lot in real football and not enough in FM.

Good post! Was fun to think about this.

Edited January 11, 2021 by TokyoWanderer

[Platinum]

 this thread is an example of the demand of an overhaul.  I dont think attributes should be removed unless the scout and reports have a massive overhaul as we just wouldn't have enough information about the skills of a player. I think my suggestion in the OP of this thread (based on coaches opinion) is the best solution.

[Luke Hume]

Reviewed so locked.