Adding instructions and playstyle to shapes & roles - building my 4-3-3 | Help welcomed

[frukox]

12 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's scripted. It just feels that way, which in reality makes little difference. It's the lack of agency that causes the frustration, the feeling of powerlessless to prevent it. 

I've tried higher defensive line, much higher, more urgent pressing, tight marking. Makes no difference. Let me add that none of the players scoring these long shots are even good at it. The best one had 11 in long shots. 4 of them had 9 or lower. It just seems weird. 

No real pattern. The only consistency is that the ball ends up on the flank somehow, and is crossed onto the back post whic leads to a goal more often than not. It's evenly distributed from overlaps, to wingers going on solo efforts, striker going wide, to long build ups that gradually end up on the wing or a crossed free kick from out wide. No repeating pattern. Granted, I scored lots of goals that way last season, to the point where I'm now considering it an exploit/flaw/weakness in the match engine. It seems like a way too effective tool. That is obviously influenced by the fact that I can't prevent it from happening no matter what I do, which could just be me being an idiot. If you're really curious, I'd be happy to send you the save file so you can watch it back. 

I have FM20 so I don't know whether I can open fm21 pkm files or not.

[Christopher S]

6 minutes ago, frukox said:

I have FM20 so I don't know whether I can open fm21 pkm files or not.

Oh, right. I wouldn't expect it to work, but I've never tried either - haha!

[frukox]

39 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

Oh, right. I wouldn't expect it to work, but I've never tried either - haha!

Chris, let's add one number ahead of the ball, that is a FBA with W(S) in front of him. That makes a bit less risk averse- and maybe press earlier the opposition winger and fullback together with WS. That might be the culprit of those back post goals. Have you tried this?

I checked the mentalities of your right flank. They are not that close. It may work because you still have two players behind the ball in the form of DLPS and DMD or DLPD.

Edited January 15, 2021 by frukox

[Christopher S]

4 minutes ago, frukox said:

Chris, let's add one number ahead of the ball, that is a FBA with W(S) in front of him. That makes a bit less risk averse- and maybe press earlier the opposition winger and fullback together with WS. That might be the culprit of those back post goals. Have you tried this?

Willing to try. Are you looking at the left side or the right side? 

Quote

I checked the mentalities of your right flank. They are not that close. It may work because you still have two players behind the ball in the form of DLPS and DMD or DLPD.

What do you mean? Both Ws and IWBs have a Balanced individual mentality, when the team mentality is set to Balanced. 

[frukox]

1 minute ago, Christopher S said:

Willing to try. Are you looking at the left side or the right side? 

What do you mean? Both Ws and IWBs have a Balanced individual mentality, when the team mentality is set to Balanced. 

right side fb. IWB has Balanced, WS has balanced and CMA has Attacking mentality. To close that gap a bit, change the IWBS to a FBA. He's going to play with Positive mentality, enabling them to play close to each other besides providing necessary width you are looking for down that flank.

[Christopher S]

3 minutes ago, frukox said:

right side fb. IWB has Balanced, WS has balanced and CMA has Attacking mentality. To close that gap a bit, change the IWBS to a FBA. He's going to play with Positive mentality, enabling them to play close to each other besides providing necessary width you are looking for down that flank.

I don't mind trying, though it does take me away from the intended goal of the 2-3-5 shape in attack, where the IWB becomes one of the three. I've tried using a FBs recently, with Sit Narrower, Cross Less, Cross From Deep and Cut Inside With The Ball, but he just ignores all those instructions and goes wide anyway. Sort of just like the Ws ignores his instructions and insists on being an Inside Forward. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Christopher S

[frukox]

9 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

I don't mind trying, though it does take me away from the intended goal of the 2-3-5 shape in attack, where the IWB becomes one of the three. I've tried using a FBs recently, with Sit Narrower, Cross Less, Cross From Deep and Cut Inside With The Ball, but he just ignores all those instructions and goes wide anyway. Sort of just like the Ws ignores his instructions and insists on being an Inside Forward. 

Ok, try it for a few games and upload some screenshots of your build-up or defensive transitions. If this doesn't work you may need to change the focal point of attacks.

[Christopher S]

2 minutes ago, frukox said:

Ok, try it for a few games and upload some screenshots of your build-up or defensive transitions. If this doesn't work you may need to change the focal point of attacks.

I can. 

The thing that kind of worries me/bothers me, is that for every adjustment we are getting further and further away from what my players seemingly excel at doing. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting their strengths and weaknesses, of course. For example, my best right back simply cannot dribble or cross. He's rapid, strong, a good defender, mentally very good and has good passing. Can not dribble or cross to save his life. Having him on FBa makes no sense, then, no?

[frukox]

8 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

I can. 

The thing that kind of worries me/bothers me, is that for every adjustment we are getting further and further away from what my players seemingly excel at doing. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting their strengths and weaknesses, of course. For example, my best right back simply cannot dribble or cross. He's rapid, strong, a good defender, mentally very good and has good passing. Can not dribble or cross to save his life. Having him on FBa makes no sense, then, no?

You're right but you can instruct to play less risky passes and sit narrower to encourage him not to cross too much. Here the aim is to get him up and give opposition FBs something to think about. In the end, this is a game. Sometimes real life patterns don't work in the way we want.

[Christopher S]

4 minutes ago, frukox said:

In the end, this is a game. Sometimes real life patterns don't work in the way we want.

I know, you're right. The sad part about that is that making your team perform the way you envision is what makes FM what it is, imo. If I accept that it's just not possible, and I have to 'settle' for whatever works, I might as well download a plug&play tactic. 

[frukox]

14 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

I know, you're right. The sad part about that is that making your team perform the way you envision is what makes FM what it is, imo. If I accept that it's just not possible, and I have to 'settle' for whatever works, I might as well download a plug&play tactic. 

Ok, this is my last suggestion for 2-3-5 pattern.

                   PA

IFS                                 WA

             CMS MEZA

                  DLPD

FBA      CDD   CDD      IWBS

PA will be the spearhead, going to occupy the CBS. The rest of the attacking players going to feed him.

In addition to the normal setup, add underlap right to close the mentality gap between players and add Low Crosses to encourage cutbacks and mitigate the number of needless crosses down the right byline.

CMS: maybe hold position, play risky passes to act as a deeplying playmaker without being a ball magnet.

IFS: Sit Narrower

                    PA

FBA     IFS             MEZA      WA

            CMS          IWBS

                     DLPD

             CBD          CBD

Would you like to give this a try?

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by frukox

[Christopher S]

Sure! I'm open for all suggestions here. I imagine this will work pretty well, shape wise. Will report back later.

[frukox]

3 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

Sure! I'm open for all suggestions here. I imagine this will work pretty well, shape wise. Will report back later.

Cheers, mate! I wholeheartedly hope that it works.

[Christopher S]

3 hours ago, frukox said:

Ok, this is my last suggestion for 2-3-5 pattern.

                   PA

IFS                                 WA

             CMS MEZA

                  DLPD

FBA      CDD   CDD      IWBS

PA will be the spearhead, going to occupy the CBS. The rest of the attacking players going to feed him.

In addition to the normal setup, add underlap right to close the mentality gap between players and add Low Crosses to encourage cutbacks and mitigate the number of needless crosses down the right byline.

CMS: maybe hold position, play risky passes to act as a deeplying playmaker without being a ball magnet.

IFS: Sit Narrower

                    PA

FBA     IFS             MEZA      WA

            CMS          IWBS

                     DLPD

             CBD          CBD

Would you like to give this a try?

 

All set up, the evening will show wether it works or not. Can't wait to concede more goals on the back post! :P 

[Christopher S]

First game against Cardiff. 0-2. Two crosses on the back post. We had chances to score 3-4 goals ourselves, but I can't even start to appreciate that considering the goals we concede. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Christopher S

[frukox]

17 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

First game against Cardiff. 0-2. Two crosses on the back post. We had chances to score 3-4 goals ourselves, but I can't even start to appreciate that considering the goals we concede. 

Remove Play out Defence. You already distribute to your backline. 

Remove Counterpress. I am now sure you can't press high effectively. You need a mid block. Higher DL+ More Urgent Pressing+Get Stuck In(be watchful!) 

Turn PFA to a PA. I love that role in a possession game because he keeps it really simple and play safe passes when no other option is available or goes wide for a crossing opportunity. By the way, you already have someone moving into channels(MEZA). 

 

 

[Christopher S]

1 hour ago, frukox said:

Remove Play out Defence. You already distribute to your backline.

I only enabled distribute to back line because my keeper would kick it long half the time instead of playing it out from the back. I even posted about it further up. I hate few things more than centre backs kicking the ball long for no reason, especially players below world class level. if there were a setting to tell CBs to never play it long, no matter what happens, I would use that. 

Quote

Remove Counterpress. I am now sure you can't press high effectively. You need a mid block. Higher DL+ More Urgent Pressing+Get Stuck In(be watchful!) 

Why, exactly? You may very well be right, just wondering what makes you so sure? The main issue I have with the game is that the feedback from instructions feel vague if not non existant, so I'm curious as to why you've deduced this?

Quote

Turn PFA to a PA. I love that role in a possession game because he keeps it really simple and play safe passes when no other option is available or goes wide for a crossing opportunity. By the way, you already have someone moving into channels(MEZA). 

PA being...? Poacher? Role description effictively describes Poachers as being completely uninvolved in build up, constantly sitting on the defenders shoulder. That sounds counter productive to me - am I getting it wrong?

[frukox]

1 minute ago, Christopher S said:

I only enabled distribute to back line because my keeper would kick it long half the time instead of playing it out from the back. I even posted about it further up. I hate few things more than centre backs kicking the ball long for no reason, especially players below world class level. if there were a setting to tell CBs to never play it long, no matter what happens, I would use that. 

Why, exactly? You may very well be right, just wondering what makes you so sure? The main issue I have with the game is that the feedback from instructions feel vague if not non existant, so I'm curious as to why you've deduced this?

PA being...? Poacher? Role description effictively describes Poachers as being completely uninvolved in build up, constantly sitting on the defenders shoulder. That sounds counter productive to me - am I getting it wrong?

Remember, you said you are not favorites in most of the games. Since you go for a low-risk possession tactic, when they press you high you lose the control of the game. Therefore, when you press in a high block it is not that effective and that may be the reason why you concede many goals at the far post. Your FBs probably step up early missing the interception or not getting stuck in for a hard tackle or, get skinned by a nimble dribbler and then basically your wide areas are like highways as you press you high. They leave their positions early too.

As for the hoofing CBs, upping to Positive mentality should help with that because they are going to take more risks when it comes to passing and yes that includes less hoof-balls.

You never know without trying it. Don't be taken in by the in-game descriptions so much. Your system should create the space he needs. IFs cut in early, WA will stretch the game, MEZA will go wide and create space in the middle or on the other flank. FBA moves into the space IFS creates. IWBS will help with the overloads and most importantly, the PA will increase the depth they are going to play in and be the focal point of the attacks.

[Christopher S]

12 minutes ago, frukox said:

Remember, you said you are not favorites in most of the games. Since you go for a low-risk possession tactic, when they press you high you lose the control of the game. Therefore, when you press in a high block it is not that effective and that may be the reason why you concede many goals at the far post. Your FBs probably step up early missing the interception or not getting stuck in for a hard tackle or, get skinned by a nimble dribbler and then basically your wide areas are like highways as you press you high. They leave their positions early too.

As for the hoofing CBs, upping to Positive mentality should help with that because they are going to take more risks when it comes to passing and yes that includes less hoof-balls.

You never know without trying it. Don't be taken in by the in-game descriptions so much. Your system should create the space he needs. IFs cut in early, WA will stretch the game, MEZA will go wide and create space in the middle or on the other flank. FBA moves into the space IFS creates. IWBS will help with the overloads and most importantly, the PA will increase the depth they are going to play in and be the focal point of the attacks.

Mid game update: 

- Normal LOE + Get Stuck In + More Urgent is looking really solid so far. Broken play in the midfield repeatedly already. Is looking promising!
- Still a fair bit of CB hoofing. I'm on Positive and even ticked on Shorter passing. I really, really wish there was a way to instruct players to never deviate from an instruction. I'd rather see my CB miss a short pass or play their teammates into risky situations than just hoof it long. 
- Team shape is good, but that's never been issue before. 
- Changed my rCB to CDstopper halfway into first half. I'm seeing the opposing strikers going unchallenged on long balls and longer passes upfield. I'm not playing with an offside trap, so I think this might be a solid shout - especially against teams with a single striker. 
- Last thing; left full back positioning in attack. I've added an image. 

As mentioned before, full backs don't seem to want to move far enough up the field to my liking. Here's my FBa (nr 5): 

I want him to be as far up as Harrison in this situation. The ball is being passed from nr. 9 to Harrison here, and my full back should already be in position to just be flicked on through or receive a pass to cross back in. Now, you'd think changing him to a WBa would do that, right? No. I tried that earlier in this thread. The only way I've managed to get my full backs to utilize that kind of space is on CWBattack and Team Mentality Attacking or Very Attacking. And while I could do that, it introduces it's own issues in other areas, especially defensively. I don't think that should be necessary - a toddler would be able to see all that space and move into it. 

So what gives?

[frukox]

13 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

Mid game update: 

- Normal LOE + Get Stuck In + More Urgent is looking really solid so far. Broken play in the midfield repeatedly already. Is looking promising!
- Still a fair bit of CB hoofing. I'm on Positive and even ticked on Shorter passing. I really, really wish there was a way to instruct players to never deviate from an instruction. I'd rather see my CB miss a short pass or play their teammates into risky situations than just hoof it long. 
- Team shape is good, but that's never been issue before. 
- Changed my rCB to CDstopper halfway into first half. I'm seeing the opposing strikers going unchallenged on long balls and longer passes upfield. I'm not playing with an offside trap, so I think this might be a solid shout - especially against teams with a single striker. 
- Last thing; left full back positioning in attack. I've added an image. 

As mentioned before, full backs don't seem to want to move far enough up the field to my liking. Here's my FBa (nr 5): 

I want him to be as far up as Harrison in this situation. The ball is being passed from nr. 9 to Harrison here, and my full back should already be in position to just be flicked on through or receive a pass to cross back in. Now, you'd think changing him to a WBa would do that, right? No. I tried that earlier in this thread. The only way I've managed to get my full backs to utilize that kind of space is on CWBattack and Team Mentality Attacking or Very Attacking. And while I could do that, it introduces it's own issues in other areas, especially defensively. I don't think that should be necessary - a toddler would be able to see all that space and move into it. 

So what gives?

How do your CBs fare in terms of composure, first touch, balance and passing? or

Do they run out of passing options because you instruct them to play short? You effectively reduce their passing options when they are on the ball.

So up to Attacking! but 

-reduce to standard width(let them decide where to build-up the play)

-reduce to Slightly Shorter Passing(you don't prefer too direct plays and that also reduces your tempo a bit)

-Add Be More Disciplined or Work Ball Into Box(Risks are higher than normal-don't need too many long shots; we have to mitigate it in some ways.)

-even test Hit Early Crosses (you have three direct runners into the box)

-Lower DL to Standard but keep Get Stuck In and More Urgent Pressing(We still need an aggressive and proactive defence)

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by frukox

[jascko]

12 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

Mid game update: 

- Normal LOE + Get Stuck In + More Urgent is looking really solid so far. Broken play in the midfield repeatedly already. Is looking promising!
- Still a fair bit of CB hoofing. I'm on Positive and even ticked on Shorter passing. I really, really wish there was a way to instruct players to never deviate from an instruction. I'd rather see my CB miss a short pass or play their teammates into risky situations than just hoof it long. 
- Team shape is good, but that's never been issue before. 
- Changed my rCB to CDstopper halfway into first half. I'm seeing the opposing strikers going unchallenged on long balls and longer passes upfield. I'm not playing with an offside trap, so I think this might be a solid shout - especially against teams with a single striker. 
- Last thing; left full back positioning in attack. I've added an image. 

As mentioned before, full backs don't seem to want to move far enough up the field to my liking. Here's my FBa (nr 5): 

I want him to be as far up as Harrison in this situation. The ball is being passed from nr. 9 to Harrison here, and my full back should already be in position to just be flicked on through or receive a pass to cross back in. Now, you'd think changing him to a WBa would do that, right? No. I tried that earlier in this thread. The only way I've managed to get my full backs to utilize that kind of space is on CWBattack and Team Mentality Attacking or Very Attacking. And while I could do that, it introduces it's own issues in other areas, especially defensively. I don't think that should be necessary - a toddler would be able to see all that space and move into it. 

So what gives?

Just a short comment in relation to the last picture you posted: Look at the opponent's number 16 and 8. If you lose the ball exactly in the position that the picture shows, you will be countered to death. You have to solve this if you see this in several cases.

[frukox]

1 minute ago, jascko said:

Just a short comment in relation to the last picture you posted: Look at the opponent's number 16 and 8. If you lose the ball exactly in the position that the picture shows, you will be countered to death. You have to solve this if you see this in several cases.

If 4 and 23 is defensively capable, that's not a big problem. AFAIK, his IWB is pretty good but I don't know his DLPD.

[Christopher S]

@frukox: The guy normally playing IWB was playing in the MCr position in this game, as my other central mids all has "Gets Further Forward" and I wanted to see if we more defensively solid without someone like that. 

 

Nr 23 (DM, DLPd):

Nr 4 (RB, IWBs): 

Also, the game just Crash Dumped. Second time since installing the TCS skin. Think I should probably turn that off, even if it makes the game infinitely more comfortable to play. I won the game 1-0 convincingly, but didn't save after. Here we go again, it seems. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Christopher S

[jascko]

7 minutes ago, frukox said:

If 4 and 23 is defensively capable, that's not a big problem. AFAIK, his IWB is pretty good but I don't know his DLPD.

It can be. At the same time, it's a good example of why I do not like IWB. If I want a holding role on my fullbacks, I always use FBs or FBd. I'm also unsure if he concides goals on the back post from the side where he has IWB and that the problem can be linked to that role.

[Christopher S]

Evenly distributed between both sides, with two or three more coming from crosses from my left side. The IWB side is generally the more defensively solid. 

Furthermore, I don't want my RB to just be a holding player. I'm specifically trying to get him to hold the right side of a midfield 3 in attack, to allow my MCr to maraud forwards into space while my right winger stays wide. Look in the opening post of the thread, everything is explained there. I'm looking for a specific attacking shape (2-3-5), based on the players I have at my disposal. 

[frukox]

3 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

@frukox: The guy normally playing IWB was playing in the MCr position in this game, as my other central mids all has "Gets Further Forward" and I wanted to see if we more defensively solid without someone like that. 

 

Nr 23 (DM, DLPd):

Nr 4 (RB, IWBs): 

Also, the game just Crash Dumped. Second time since installing the TCS skin. Think I should probably turn that off, even if it makes the game infinitely more comfortable to play. I won the game 1-0 convincingly, but didn't save after. Here we go again, it seems. 

That DLPD may not cover the central channel well as his speed and anticipation are lower than it should be(around 13)

I liked the former IWB more. This player is a jack of all trades. I wouldn't count on these two to cover my channels.

[jascko]

10 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

Evenly distributed between both sides, with two or three more coming from crosses from my left side. The IWB side is generally the more defensively solid. 

Furthermore, I don't want my RB to just be a holding player. I'm specifically trying to get him to hold the right side of a midfield 3 in attack, to allow my MCr to maraud forwards into space while my right winger stays wide. Look in the opening post of the thread, everything is explained there. I'm looking for a specific attacking shape (2-3-5), based on the players I have at my disposal. 

You can get almost the same effect if you ask your FB "sit narrower". When it comes to goals against the back post, I had first checked if your CBs have good enough values in jumpig, position and anticipation.

[Christopher S]

11 minutes ago, frukox said:

That DLPD may not cover the central channel well as his speed and anticipation are lower than it should be(around 13)

I liked the former IWB more. This player is a jack of all trades. I wouldn't count on these two to cover my channels.

Not counting on the DLPd to cover that channel as much as his ability to bring the ball out of defence and generally be a body in the area defensively. That's why I swapped him to DLPd, as I felt he wasn't defensively solid enough to 'just' be a DMd. 

The other IWB is deffo my first choice - it was just an experiment, as I mentioned, for the MCl spot.

[Christopher S]

Had to play the game again, due to said Crash Dump. 

First half was uneventful as all hell. Also, weirdly enough, where in the pre-dump (hah!) game I had 52-55% possession for most of the game, this game I saw us sub-40% for all of the half, with the exact same set up as pre-dump. We conceded a goal seconds before half-time - though not on a back post cross, just a real blunder by my CBr. I can live with that all things considered. Come half-time, I made some changes. Then, this happened: 

Things started flowing a lot better and we scored some absolutely lovely goals. So, what changes do you ask?

1) MZa -> APa. Both my players for this position have "Gets Further Forward". We have Underlap Right on. In my opinion, this will make the player seek out that space if it is open without having to force him into a MZ role. Also, again, the MZ role breaks formation too much for my liking, almost splitting the map vertically putting too much distance in the centre of pitch. 
2) Poacher -> AF. I noticed the Poacher was a bit too static. He'd refuse to move to chase a ball 10ish meters away from him, despite the fact he clearly would have been first to the ball. AFs tend to combine the predatory function of a poacher with more movement and grit from my experience. I am aware he is more likely to drift away from the centre, so I'll pay attention. 
3) Positive -> Attacking. I want to exploit space (2-3-5), I want to retain possession and I want to utilize my excellent passers and off the ball players with splitting passes and combination play. All those things are listed as traits of the Attacking mentality. Bonus is that I'm likely to have fewer crosses on my back post.
4) Passing from Standard -> Shorter (or in Attacking state from Slightly More Direct to Slightly Shorter). Ball retention, simple as that. Our shape will see us have 4-5 players in short proximity in the middle third when attacking. I want to encourage them to play triangles and combinations to draw attention. 

Gonna run this setup for a couple more games and see how it works. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Christopher S

[Christopher S]

STILL TWEAKING

But sometimes, things happen to indicate you're on the right path... 

 

[frukox]

9 hours ago, Christopher S said:

Had to play the game again, due to said Crash Dump. 

First half was uneventful as all hell. Also, weirdly enough, where in the pre-dump (hah!) game I had 52-55% possession for most of the game, this game I saw us sub-40% for all of the half, with the exact same set up as pre-dump. We conceded a goal seconds before half-time - though not on a back post cross, just a real blunder by my CBr. I can live with that all things considered. Come half-time, I made some changes. Then, this happened: 

Things started flowing a lot better and we scored some absolutely lovely goals. So, what changes do you ask?

1) MZa -> APa. Both my players for this position have "Gets Further Forward". We have Underlap Right on. In my opinion, this will make the player seek out that space if it is open without having to force him into a MZ role. Also, again, the MZ role breaks formation too much for my liking, almost splitting the map vertically putting too much distance in the centre of pitch. 
2) Poacher -> AF. I noticed the Poacher was a bit too static. He'd refuse to move to chase a ball 10ish meters away from him, despite the fact he clearly would have been first to the ball. AFs tend to combine the predatory function of a poacher with more movement and grit from my experience. I am aware he is more likely to drift away from the centre, so I'll pay attention. 
3) Positive -> Attacking. I want to exploit space (2-3-5), I want to retain possession and I want to utilize my excellent passers and off the ball players with splitting passes and combination play. All those things are listed as traits of the Attacking mentality. Bonus is that I'm likely to have fewer crosses on my back post.
4) Passing from Standard -> Shorter (or in Attacking state from Slightly More Direct to Slightly Shorter). Ball retention, simple as that. Our shape will see us have 4-5 players in short proximity in the middle third when attacking. I want to encourage them to play triangles and combinations to draw attention. 

Gonna run this setup for a couple more games and see how it works. 

Looks good!

Your system now turned into a fast-transition based attacking tactic:) (aggressive on and off the ball)

Anyway, if you are happy rock'em!

[fmjeros]

Your goal is to end up something like this if i understood correctly ?

You have two options to make it happen

1) Play like Pep

2 IWB's , wingers hug the touchline in early buildup and the 2 Mc's push up to occupy the left and right half space

2)Play like Klopp

wingbacks hug the touchline,wingers tuck in and the mids compress the center of the pitch

 

I read your opening post and i think that you mixed them in order to make that 235 happen

the problem was the bbm and that you think he will stay deeper which isn't true

 

have a read on that excellent article https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/features/2020/10/14/21515543/re-imagining-frank-lampards-chelsea-a-positional-play-game-model

[Christopher S]

3 hours ago, frukox said:

Looks good!

Your system now turned into a fast-transition based attacking tactic:) (aggressive on and off the ball)

Anyway, if you are happy rock'em!

It might well have. I haven't specified this before, but I have implied it; I never really had a goal of achieving an exact style of play (direct vs possession++) - I just wanted to build something around my players that works reliably. 
That being said, we do actually keep the ball well if we're allowed to. The difference in player quality between the top and bottom teams in the Championship is massive, so it's pretty weird how different each game is. 

 

2 hours ago, fmjeros said:

Your goal is to end up something like this if i understood correctly ?

You have two options to make it happen

1) Play like Pep

2 IWB's , wingers hug the touchline in early buildup and the 2 Mc's push up to occupy the left and right half space

2)Play like Klopp

wingbacks hug the touchline,wingers tuck in and the mids compress the center of the pitch

 

I read your opening post and i think that you mixed them in order to make that 235 happen

the problem was the bbm and that you think he will stay deeper which isn't true

 

have a read on that excellent article https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/features/2020/10/14/21515543/re-imagining-frank-lampards-chelsea-a-positional-play-game-model

Hey there! Thank you for engaging with my post.

Luckily, everything you mention was adressed in my OP, so no worry. 

[bamb00zle]

Really interesting thread bearing in mind I'm playing a very similar setup.

I do tend to find we have more defensive solidity if we play a half back in the DM role. Particularly in away games. He gets high ratings as well as he has the brings the ball out of defence trait.

This makes 3 centre halves when out of possession and has the added bonus of pushing the WBs or FBs higher to mount attacks when we get the ball back.

I only play a low or mid block so we regroup (although I untick both counter press and regroup and leave it unchecked) and we are barely troubled down the centre.

Also have you tried man marking the oppo FBs with your IF and winger? That can work if you see heavy AI emphasis down the flanks.

Edited January 16, 2021 by bamb00zle

[Christopher S]

25 minutes ago, bamb00zle said:

Really interesting thread bearing in mind I'm playing a very similar setup.

I do tend to find we have more defensive solidity if we play a half back in the DM role. Particularly in away games. He gets high ratings as well as he has the brings the ball out of defence trait.

This makes 3 centre halves when out of possession and has the added bonus of pushing the WBs or FBs higher to mount attacks when we get the ball back.

That was my original plan, but it poses an interesting issue for me: 
Having a halfback at the same time as having a central midfielder than is meant to attack the half space creates big gaps between the defence and the midfield. The halfback drops all the way back, and the MCr moves forward - that leaves only really the full backs to play the ball onto when playing out from the back. If the opposition presses high, which they often do against me, it just ends up with the ball being hoofed as there's no one to play it to. 

I'll give it another try, though.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Christopher S

[bamb00zle]

47 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

That was my original plan, but it poses an interesting issue for me: 
Having a halfback at the same time as having a central midfielder than is meant to attack the half space creates big gaps between the defence and the midfield. The halfback drops all the way back, and the MCr moves forward - that leaves only really the full backs to play the ball onto when playing out from the back. If the opposition presses high, which they often do against me, it just ends up with the ball being hoofed as there's no one to play it to. 

I'll give it another try, though.

It could potentially but I'm not really having any issues, although I'm quite happy to sacrifice certain parts of the field to retain a significant defensive presence and like I say, we barely get any issues. This might be because we have a compact shape thus reducing space between the lines.

How's your lone forward getting on? I'm really struggling with mine. Whatever I try, I just can't get him to click. He gets the lowest average ratings in the team and most of the chances fall to the widemen and the two CMs. I want him to be the main scorer but it just ain't happening for me.

Edited January 16, 2021 by bamb00zle