Form is terrible - I can’t seem to get a win!

[James Greensmith]

Hello everyone, I hope you are all well and keeping safe during these tough times.

I’m currently managing Hereford FC in my second season (2021/2022) playing in the Vanarama National League. 

Last season we overachieved, coming 3rd in the Vanarama National League North and winning the play-offs against Boston United in the final (on pens after we scored a last minute goal to make it 1-1 from a 17 year old regen!) We were predicted to finish 17th last year so this was really out of the blue!

We are predicted to be relegated this year in the Vanarama National League but we won our first 3 games quite comfortably - surely this is a dream!

However, after the opening 3 games we have lost 8 (5 in a row), drawn 1 and only won 1. I have played the same tactic of a 4-4-2 - altered and tweaked here and there - but our form has been terrible. I can’t seem to get a win!

Perhaps I’ve come down from being sky high and back down to face reality with the fact we are a relegated threatened team but surely we can’t keep losing every game...

Any replies will be greatly appreciated and I will upload any photos if this can help (tactics, results, data, player information etc).

Thank you!

Edited January 17, 2021 by James Greensmith

[V3ntricity]

i'm pretty sure they've gone back to fm20 difficulty, as i've experienced this too now.

[James Greensmith]

16 minutes ago, V3ntricity said:

i'm pretty sure they've gone back to fm20 difficulty, as i've experienced this too now.

What do you mean by this? Since the new patch?

[Garrlor]

Morning James,

One of the first things you need to do is check the quality of your players against the league average to see how you stack up. Rashidi produced a fantastic thread recently, here. It then becomes a question of maximising the strengths of your team and minimising your weaknesses via tactics - e.g if your defenders are strong and great in the air but slow, then a lower Defensive Line and forcing opponents outside to make crosses might be a good start for the defensive portion of your tactic.

You will probably find that the quality of your team isnt that different to the teams around you, but your reputation is seeing you labeled as relegation fodder rather than actual ability. Pictures of tactics always help, as you may have done something counter productive when picking from the myriad options that FM presents to you.

 

[Wavelberry]

The other issue is probably your team morale now as well. If you're in a funk then morale can keep that funk going despite the tactical tweaks you make. You're gonna need to gee your players back up and you'll start to see your results turn again. Be easier on them in team-talks now etc.

[James Greensmith]

1 hour ago, Garrlor said:

Morning James,

One of the first things you need to do is check the quality of your players against the league average to see how you stack up. Rashidi produced a fantastic thread recently, here. It then becomes a question of maximising the strengths of your team and minimising your weaknesses via tactics - e.g if your defenders are strong and great in the air but slow, then a lower Defensive Line and forcing opponents outside to make crosses might be a good start for the defensive portion of your tactic.

You will probably find that the quality of your team isnt that different to the teams around you, but your reputation is seeing you labeled as relegation fodder rather than actual ability. Pictures of tactics always help, as you may have done something counter productive when picking from the myriad options that FM presents to you.

 

Good morning Garrlor,

Thank you for your reply. I had a look at Rashidi’s thread and it looks great - I’ll look through my squad and evaluate.

Last season we scored a lot of goals and my 2 strikers were prolific (49 goals between them in the league). This season we are scoring but I think my tactics need to be focused on being more defensive.

I’ll post some screen shots to the thread if any advice can be provided.

[James Greensmith]

56 minutes ago, Wavelberry said:

The other issue is probably your team morale now as well. If you're in a funk then morale can keep that funk going despite the tactical tweaks you make. You're gonna need to gee your players back up and you'll start to see your results turn again. Be easier on them in team-talks now etc.

Yeah I was thinking this, during my team talks they always respond positively and on the dynamics screen, it’s all showing green and positive.

I’ll focus to be more easy on them during team talks - would you suggest what could be some good examples?

[Wavelberry]

3 minutes ago, James Greensmith said:

Yeah I was thinking this, during my team talks they always respond positively and on the dynamics screen, it’s all showing green and positive.

I’ll focus to be more easy on them during team talks - would you suggest what could be some good examples?

Well it depends. If you lost horribly to a team you should beat on paper (always check odds) then be harsh at the end. If you narrowly losing to sides equivalent or better then unlucky them. Take the pressure off if you can. All greens doesn't mean it's a good talk btw. What is going on when you look at your club atmosphere and team cohesion.

[James Greensmith]

As a starting point, here are my teams 'strengths and weaknesses' and my tactics. As you can see there are a load of weaknesses compared to my team's strengths. 

I have noticed that my back 4 have fairly reasonable pace for the division (between 10-13) and I am playing a lower defensive line. Perhaps this may help to stop the waves of attack from the opposition?

If anyone has any feedback from these pictures or needs further information, please let me know!

[OrientTillIDie]

So I’m not expert but the first thing I noticed is your Out of Possession instructions. In a 4-4-2, you’re only playing in three lines, as opposed to with other formations where you’re filling in the gaps between your lines. Using a lower defensive line, but a higher LOE with a 4-4-2 stretches your team out WAY too far and stops you being compact. The only way I’ve ever managed to get a 4-4-2 to be somewhat successful, especially as an underdog, is to have the LOE set as one notch lower than the defensive line; usually Standard line and Lower LOE. That could be a starting point.

[Experienced Defender]

The major issues in your tactic:

- extremely poor compactness in defense due to a huge distance between D-line and LOE

- and then you use aggressive instructions such as more urgent pressing and tight marking within such an extremely loose defensive block

Therefore, your defensive team instructions alone already look like a recipe for disaster.

Let's now look at the rest:

- clear inconsistency between in-possession instructions themselves (one one hand, you use very possession-oriented TIs like much shorter passing, low tempo and work ball into box, while at the same time also applying wide attacking width and focus on the flanks)

- even greater inconsistency between those possession-oriented TIs and the setup of roles and duties, which is far more suited to a wing-play of sorts than any possession-minded style

On top of all the above, you use such a technically and tactically demanding instruction such as work ball into box while managing a Vanarama-level team. 

In short, the first thing you need to decide is what style of play - or type of football, if you will - you want to play with your team. Just make sure the style you choose is not too demanding for the quality of your players. Then we can discuss potential tweaks you can make to improve the tactic.

[warlock]

To sum up, you were very lucky to get promoted, the morale boost from promotion carried you though the first few games, and now reality has set in with a vengeance. To make matters worse, you're now in one of the hardest divisions in the English pyramid with just one promotion spot and 4 relegation positions.Tough challenge .

For the first couple of months, you really need to make yourself hard to beat and give yourself a chance to grab a goal from a counter or a setpiece. 442 is a decent option but the way you're set up isn't optimal. The strength of the 442 is in the two lines of 4 out of possession, and you want to be compact. But your lower LoD and higher LoE means you're spread out from back to front, leaving space for the opposition to exploit. Then counter-pressing, more urgent closing down and tight marking means your players are likely to break shape in an effort to win the ball back. But your squad analysis tells you the players are poor at marking and tackling, lack stamina and bravery, and are generally not the quickest.

If I were you, I'd start by removing all in-possession instructions, all in-transition TIs except 'counter', and as @OrientTillIDiesays, use a standard LoD and lower LoE. In terms of roles, if you want your MCR on support (which he is on automatic duty in 'balanced' mentality) I wouldn't have an attacking winger next to him. And from what I know of Simmonds, he isn't a pressing forward - try to find a role that will exploit his pace.

Beyond that, bring in every likely prospect on trial to try to improve the squad. You don't need superstars, you want anyone who will incrementally improve your players for tackling, passing, stamina, workrate, determination.

Good luck 

[James Greensmith]

32 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

The major issues in your tactic:

- extremely poor compactness in defense due to a huge distance between D-line and LOE

- and then you use aggressive instructions such as more urgent pressing and tight marking within such an extremely loose defensive block

Therefore, your defensive team instructions alone already look like a recipe for disaster.

Let's now look at the rest:

- clear inconsistency between in-possession instructions themselves (one one hand, you use very possession-oriented TIs like much shorter passing, low tempo and work ball into box, while at the same time also applying wide attacking width and focus on the flanks)

- even greater inconsistency between those possession-oriented TIs and the setup of roles and duties, which is far more suited to a wing-play of sorts than any possession-minded style

On top of all the above, you use such a technically and tactically demanding instruction such as work ball into box while managing a Vanarama-level team. 

In short, the first thing you need to decide is what style of play - or type of football, if you will - you want to play with your team. Just make sure the style you choose is not too demanding for the quality of your players. Then we can discuss potential tweaks you can make to improve the tactic.

Thank you for your feedback, this is great. I’ll  look to reassess the tactics.

I must of been extremely fortunate to get promoted last season! 
 

Will keep you updated of the results and performances.

[James Greensmith]

41 minutes ago, warlock said:

To sum up, you were very lucky to get promoted, the morale boost from promotion carried you though the first few games, and now reality has set in with a vengeance. To make matters worse, you're now in one of the hardest divisions in the English pyramid with just one promotion spot and 4 relegation positions.Tough challenge .

For the first couple of months, you really need to make yourself hard to beat and give yourself a chance to grab a goal from a counter or a setpiece. 442 is a decent option but the way you're set up isn't optimal. The strength of the 442 is in the two lines of 4 out of possession, and you want to be compact. But your lower LoD and higher LoE means you're spread out from back to front, leaving space for the opposition to exploit. Then counter-pressing, more urgent closing down and tight marking means your players are likely to break shape in an effort to win the ball back. But your squad analysis tells you the players are poor at marking and tackling, lack stamina and bravery, and are generally not the quickest.

If I were you, I'd start by removing all in-possession instructions, all in-transition TIs except 'counter', and as @OrientTillIDiesays, use a standard LoD and lower LoE. In terms of roles, if you want your MCR on support (which he is on automatic duty in 'balanced' mentality) I wouldn't have an attacking winger next to him. And from what I know of Simmonds, he isn't a pressing forward - try to find a role that will exploit his pace.

Beyond that, bring in every likely prospect on trial to try to improve the squad. You don't need superstars, you want anyone who will incrementally improve your players for tackling, passing, stamina, workrate, determination.

Good luck 

Thank you warlock for your feedback - I think I was extremely fortunate to get promoted last season...I was expecting to get beaten very easily in the play-offs. Perhaps another season in the Vanarama North would of been better but I can't complain about promotion in my first season!

I agree about Simmonds - he's natural at RW and quick (15 pace 15 acceleration) but he was playing up top as a AF last year with John-Lewis as PF and he was top goal scorer in the league with 30 goals. Maybe I go asymmetrical with him as a RW in a 4-4-2?

Anguin is a very good AF for this level in the main stats and at his age of 17 years old! (see picture below). I want to get the most out of him if I can. What role of a strike partner would suit him here to get the best of out him?

I'll take a look at @OrientTillIDie suggestions and go from there.

[warlock]

2 hours ago, James Greensmith said:

Anguin is a very good AF for this level

Yeah, he looks a prospect. In an ideal world, I'd play Simmonds and Anguin in rotation as AF, with someone else as PFs or TMs but if you don't have anyone suitable sometimes you have to settle for something less than ideal. But that's where I'd be focusing my trials and scouting.

[James Greensmith]

25 minutes ago, warlock said:

Yeah, he looks a prospect. In an ideal world, I'd play Simmonds and Anguin in rotation as AF, with someone else as PFs or TMs but if you don't have anyone suitable sometimes you have to settle for something less than ideal. But that's where I'd be focusing my trials and scouting.

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The major issues in your tactic:

- extremely poor compactness in defense due to a huge distance between D-line and LOE

- and then you use aggressive instructions such as more urgent pressing and tight marking within such an extremely loose defensive block

Therefore, your defensive team instructions alone already look like a recipe for disaster.

Let's now look at the rest:

- clear inconsistency between in-possession instructions themselves (one one hand, you use very possession-oriented TIs like much shorter passing, low tempo and work ball into box, while at the same time also applying wide attacking width and focus on the flanks)

- even greater inconsistency between those possession-oriented TIs and the setup of roles and duties, which is far more suited to a wing-play of sorts than any possession-minded style

On top of all the above, you use such a technically and tactically demanding instruction such as work ball into box while managing a Vanarama-level team. 

In short, the first thing you need to decide is what style of play - or type of football, if you will - you want to play with your team. Just make sure the style you choose is not too demanding for the quality of your players. Then we can discuss potential tweaks you can make to improve the tactic.

I am thinking of playing a virtual tika-taka/control possession so I can be more direct and use the pace of my players to get on the counter. 
 

Or either I focus on being counter attacking as we are vulnerable and can hit teams on the break 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, James Greensmith said:

I am thinking of playing a virtual tika-taka/control possession so I can be more direct and use the pace of my players to get on the counter

Tiki-taka (either version) and control possession are not about direct football, but primarily patient and possession-based, so it seems you have confused football styles. 

 

1 hour ago, James Greensmith said:

Or either I focus on being counter attacking as we are vulnerable and can hit teams on the break

Vulnerable where and in which sense?

Anyway, at a lower-league level, I would advise you to keep the tactic as simple and possible and avoid presets, because they are usually full of overkill. The balance of roles and duties is key to creating a good consistent tactic. Instructions come later, and you basically need very few of them (if any). Any overcomplication of a tactic is likely to lead to failure.

[James Greensmith]

UPDATE:

We played our next game against Stockport - which we lost 1-0. Was a very boring game with only a handful of highlights - we had a great 1 on 1 but Anguin fluffed it. They scored in the 88th min which was a killer, from a shot outside the box. I basically stripped my instructions going back to basics (see image of tactic for the game).  Our FBs got a very low rating (this always seems to be the problem - even last season). We're now on a run with only 4 points from 27!

[James Greensmith]

21 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Tiki-taka (either version) and control possession are not about direct football, but primarily patient and possession-based, so it seems you have confused football styles. 

 

Vulnerable where and in which sense?

Anyway, at a lower-league level, I would advise you to keep the tactic as simple and possible and avoid presents, because they are usually full of overkill. The balance of roles and duties is key to creating a good consistent tactic. Instructions come later, and you basically need very few of them (if any). Any overcomplication of a tactic is likely to lead to failure.

My apologies - What I mean is adopting possession of the ball and then playing short direct passes rather than long balls - which my players play long balls up to the strikers and then we lose out of the duels. But we have the 2nd highest possession and pass completion ratio in the league and 5th in passes completed so this is the style I want to take advantage of...

Vulnerable as in other teams are having quite a lot of shots and our xG against us is over 5.

 

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, James Greensmith said:

My apologies - What I mean is adopting possession of the ball and then playing short direct passes

Sorry, but what do you mean by "short direct passes"?

Those are 2 different types of passes, so how can you play both passing styles at the same time ??? Unless you set some players to shorter and others to more direct passes in their player instructions. 

4 hours ago, James Greensmith said:

 But we have the 2nd highest possession and pass completion ratio in the league and 5th in passes completed so this is the style I want to take advantage of.

Which style? Your latest tactic looks as though you are trying to play some sort of counter-attacking football, given instructions such as lower LOE and counter. But if so, then you need to set up roles and duties a bit differently, to begin with. 

However, the question is whether it's a good idea to play a defensive style of football in a lower league anyway. Because if you want to play such style successfully, then both your defenders and midfielders should have good defense-related attributes. Otherwise, the opposition will easily find and exploit gaps in your defense. 

[James Greensmith]

14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Sorry, but what do you mean by "short direct passes"?

Those are 2 different types of passes, so how can you play both passing styles at the same time ??? Unless you set some players to shorter and others to more direct passes in their player instructions. 

Which style? Your latest tactic looks as though you are trying to play some sort of counter-attacking football, given instructions such as lower LOE and counter. But if so, then you need to set up roles and duties a bit differently, to begin with. 

However, the question is whether it's a good idea to play a defensive style of football in a lower league anyway. Because if you want to play such style successfully, then both your defenders and midfielders should have good defense-related attributes. Otherwise, the opposition will easily find and exploit gaps in your defense. 

Ideally I would like to play a 4-2-3-1 but wouldn’t this be a poor choice especially being a lower ranked team in a lower division? 2 strikers would be much more ideal I would of imagined rather than a lone AF/CF?

This is the first time in my FM playing days where I’ve struggled and where I’ve managed a lower league team so I’ve thought to go back to basis with a 4-4-2 to start with and then adapt from there..

My style has always been possession based and this has worked in previous FMs for me.

 

[Experienced Defender]

Sorry, but I cannot offer any proper help or advice until you clearly answer the questions I had asked you. Instead, you "answered" some rather imaginary questions that I didn't even ask. 

4231 is a formation, not style of play. 

[James Greensmith]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Sorry, but I cannot offer any proper help or advice until you clearly answer the questions I had asked you. Instead, you "answered" some rather imaginary questions that I didn't even ask. 

4231 is a formation, not style of play. 

I said in the previous reply possession.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, James Greensmith said:

I said in the previous reply possession.

Okay, but your answer was far from clear.

Anyway, if you want to play possession football, why do you use instructions such as lower line of engagement and counter (in your latest tactic)? I mean, these are clearly not possession-oriented.

The 442 as a formation is not an optimal choice for possession football either, nor is your setup of roles and duties, but that's less obvious compared to the aforementioned team instructions.

4231 would make a lot more sense for possession football, but it's more tricky for an inexperienced tactician to set up properly due to its top-heavy nature. The safest bet would be 433DM Wide, because it's a very balanced system (neither top nor bottom-heavy), however it also needs to be set up properly both in terms of roles/duties and instructions.

Last but not least, a formation similar to 442 that can work nicely for a weak LLM side - and can be adapted to a possession-minded style of sorts - is 4132 wide.