Struggling to figure out why my tactic doesn't work

[PenguinKenny]

In my head the tactic works. I want to utilise the diamond I have up top with my AMC linking the attack together. I want my CD to push up into midfield to provide cover for the defensive line and help recycle possession. I want my WBs to push up and provide width if the initial attack with the front three doesn't work.

But it just doesn't work. I have a Poacher with great Off the Ball who never goes into good positions. I have an AP with great playmaking who never passes the ball. I win games from set pieces and the occasional open play goal. I am getting so tired of this game. No tactic I have ever produces results and I have players who absolutely should be capable of doing so.

I am at an absolute loss. I just cannot figure out how to get people scoring and I'm getting sick of putting hours into this game and never seeing the game do what I want.

Please help me.

[frukox]

5 hours ago, PenguinKenny said:

In my head the tactic works. I want to utilise the diamond I have up top with my AMC linking the attack together. I want my CD to push up into midfield to provide cover for the defensive line and help recycle possession. I want my WBs to push up and provide width if the initial attack with the front three doesn't work.

But it just doesn't work. I have a Poacher with great Off the Ball who never goes into good positions. I have an AP with great playmaking who never passes the ball. I win games from set pieces and the occasional open play goal. I am getting so tired of this game. No tactic I have ever produces results and I have players who absolutely should be capable of doing so.

I am at an absolute loss. I just cannot figure out how to get people scoring and I'm getting sick of putting hours into this game and never seeing the game do what I want.

Please help me.

Here is my two chips:

Your attacking trio is best used when playing with a fast-transition based style but you instruct your team to pass the ball patiently. 

The libero role needs some crucial traits to work in the way you want such as Runs With Ball, Dictates Tempo, Switch Ball to Other Flank, Gets Further Forward and etc. to use him as your main playmaker, which makes your APA and DLPS kind of redundant or revert him to a BPDD. He's still going to play the occasional diagonals.

Why do you defend wider? Why did you choose it? How does your CBS and CMs fare when it comes to defending the middle of the pitch?

Counter-press+Attacking+Extremely Urgent Closing Down will expose your team defensively. Attacking Mentality already instructs to close down earlier and tells your players to take more risks out of possession.

Tighter Marking tells your players to mark players tighter in their zones but you tell your team to win the ball immediately thus leaving gaps for the opposition to exploit.

Why do you tell your GK to distribute quickly when you are trying to slow down the game? SKS is fine on FM20 but AFAIK in FM21 they take too many risks when distributing the ball. Turning him to defend duty and removing Distributing Quickly will help with that.

Are your defenders able to play a very high line? Remember the attacking mentality already raises it a bit. 

I'd also be wary of Pass Into Space(best used when there is space and you have creative passers and players attacking space) and WBIB(best used with a squad of players who are capable of keeping the ball and passing it well deep in the final third to break down defences)

Edited January 25, 2021 by frukox

[NotSoSpecialOne]

There's a lot of contradiction in your instructions and role choices imo, but frukox has touched on most of that.

Some other things that come to mind:

I don't see Focus Play Through the Middle being necessary here. You're using a narrow formation and also have two ball magnets (playmaking roles) in the center of the pitch already. Playing this way, you're essentially creating space out wide and the play being more compact centrally makes it harder for your players to get through that area of the pitch. 

An advanced playmaker on attack duty is going to be looking to consistently run at the opposition defense to create opportunities for himself or others; you probably want him on support or other another role entirely if the goal is for him to play in the strikers. Pretty sure the Poacher doesn't have Moves Into Channels (but I can't get into the game at the moment to check) so he's not really helping much to create space for the AP-A to dribble into and exploit as is.

Also not sure why you've elected for a Much Higher Defensive Line whilst keeping the Line of Engagement to standard.

[PenguinKenny]

4 hours ago, frukox said:

Here is my two chips:

Your attacking trio is best used when playing with a fast-transition based style but you instruct your team to pass the ball patiently. 

The libero role needs some crucial traits to work in the way you want such as Runs With Ball, Dictates Tempo, Switch Ball to Other Flank, Gets Further Forward and etc. to use him as your main playmaker, which makes your APA and DLPS kind of redundant or revert him to a BPDD. He's still going to play the occasional diagonals.

Why do you defend wider? Why did you choose it? How does your CBS and CMs fare when it comes to defending the middle of the pitch?

Counter-press+Attacking+Extremely Urgent Closing Down will expose your team defensively. Attacking Mentality already instructs to close down earlier and tells your players to take more risks out of possession.

Tighter Marking tells your players to mark players tighter in their zones but you tell your team to win the ball immediately thus leaving gaps for the opposition to exploit.

Why do you tell your GK to distribute quickly when you are trying to slow down the game? SKS is fine on FM20 but AFAIK in FM21 they take too many risks when distributing the ball. Turning him to defend duty and removing Distributing Quickly will help with that.

Are your defenders able to play a very high line? Remember the attacking mentality already raises it a bit. 

I'd also be wary of Pass Into Space(best used when there is space and you have creative passers and players attacking space) and WBIB(best used with a squad of players who are capable of keeping the ball and passing it well deep in the final third to break down defences)

Thanks for your reply.

I originally had a Shorter Passing with Higher Tempo but I was finding my players playing it far too aggressively, like playing long balls constantly. I hoped that a lower tempo with an Attacking mentality would permit them to think about what they are doing but still commit men forwards.

My Libero has Brings Ball Out of Defence but not the others you mention, but he's very quick and is a good passer so I thought it would work. I like that the Libero pushes forward in possession, I sort of want him to be a Half Back but he hasn't got the workrate and can't currently play in DM. I'll try him with a BPD(D) and hope that the trait he has helps him move out.

I was defending wider because with Defend Narrower I had my CMs and WBs running all over the place trying to close down the players and I was losing any defensive shape I had.

Would you suggest reducing the closing down urgency?

Tighter Marking was put in because I was finding my CBs losing their man, but I have noticed what you've described so I might remove it.

I had Distribute Quickly because I wanted to try and counter attack, but I might make your changes for the same reason that I removed Counter from when we win the ball back because the players were just trying to force it and it was frustrating me.

My defenders are all very quick, top of my head their Acceleration/Pace combinations are 11/16, 18/18 and 14/16, or something around that.

Pass into Space was put in to take advantage of my relatively quick Poacher who has great Off the Ball. Would you suggest removing it when I play more defensive teams? I use WBIB because I have some good passers and I was finding, again, they were forcing the issue and taking long shots or whatever. I do quite regularly take it off or on depending on how we are playing.

[PenguinKenny]

4 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

There's a lot of contradiction in your instructions and role choices imo, but frukox has touched on most of that.

Some other things that come to mind:

I don't see Focus Play Through the Middle being necessary here. You're using a narrow formation and also have two ball magnets (playmaking roles) in the center of the pitch already. Playing this way, you're essentially creating space out wide and the play being more compact centrally makes it harder for your players to get through that area of the pitch. 

An advanced playmaker on attack duty is going to be looking to consistently run at the opposition defense to create opportunities for himself or others; you probably want him on support or other another role entirely if the goal is for him to play in the strikers. Pretty sure the Poacher doesn't have Moves Into Channels (but I can't get into the game at the moment to check) so he's not really helping much to create space for the AP-A to dribble into and exploit as is.

Also not sure why you've elected for a Much Higher Defensive Line whilst keeping the Line of Engagement to standard.

Thanks for your reply.

I'll try removing Focus Play, what you are saying makes sense.

I think you are right about the AP. I really just want him to receive the ball and quickly play it to one of the strikers if possible. So maybe an AM with Get Further Forward and More Risky passing might do that.

For the defensive lines I wanted to let the opposition play out a bit to create space behind them and make it more compact in the middle so it would be easier to win the ball back quickly and then exploit the space they've created.

[frukox]

55 minutes ago, PenguinKenny said:

Thanks for your reply.

I originally had a Shorter Passing with Higher Tempo but I was finding my players playing it far too aggressively, like playing long balls constantly. I hoped that a lower tempo with an Attacking mentality would permit them to think about what they are doing but still commit men forwards.

My Libero has Brings Ball Out of Defence but not the others you mention, but he's very quick and is a good passer so I thought it would work. I like that the Libero pushes forward in possession, I sort of want him to be a Half Back but he hasn't got the workrate and can't currently play in DM. I'll try him with a BPD(D) and hope that the trait he has helps him move out.

I was defending wider because with Defend Narrower I had my CMs and WBs running all over the place trying to close down the players and I was losing any defensive shape I had.

Would you suggest reducing the closing down urgency?

Tighter Marking was put in because I was finding my CBs losing their man, but I have noticed what you've described so I might remove it.

I had Distribute Quickly because I wanted to try and counter attack, but I might make your changes for the same reason that I removed Counter from when we win the ball back because the players were just trying to force it and it was frustrating me.

My defenders are all very quick, top of my head their Acceleration/Pace combinations are 11/16, 18/18 and 14/16, or something around that.

Pass into Space was put in to take advantage of my relatively quick Poacher who has great Off the Ball. Would you suggest removing it when I play more defensive teams? I use WBIB because I have some good passers and I was finding, again, they were forcing the issue and taking long shots or whatever. I do quite regularly take it off or on depending on how we are playing.

What about playing on Balanced without any tempo TI? They will move the ball more carefully.

BPD on at least on Attacking Mentality + Bring Ball out of Defence+Runs with Ball(optional) will see him go up near the penalty area if that's what you want.

Those out-of-possession TIs disrupt your defensive organization so just try these mid-block on Balanced Mentality:

Higher DL, Get Stuck In, More Urgent Pressing, Defend Wider but turn one of your CMs to a CMD or DLPD to hold shape better while defending aggressively around the middle third.

If you don't always have the chance to counter, just leave them unticked and tick Roll It Out and Distribute to CBS to play out of defence in a more meaningful manner.

What about your defenders' anticipation, positioning, teamwork, concentration? Playing a high line also requires mentally aware players. 

When playing against a deep and narrow defence, I always increase playing width, reduce tempo, play with a counterpressing high block and add numbers into the penalty area without losing depth. It nearly always works because my players use all of the pitch with expansive passes while choosing the best passing options due to lower tempo.

Edited January 25, 2021 by frukox

[PenguinKenny]

22 minutes ago, frukox said:

What about playing on Balanced without any tempo TI? They will move the ball more carefully.

BPD on at least on Attacking Mentality + Bring Ball out of Defence+Runs with Ball(optional) will see him go up near the penalty area if that's what you want.

Those out-of-possession TIs disrupt your defensive organization so just try these mid-block on Balanced Mentality:

Higher DL, Get Stuck In, More Urgent Pressing, Defend Wider but turn one of your CMs to a CMD or DLPD to hold shape better while defending aggressively around the middle third.

If you don't always have the chance to counter, just leave them unticked and tick Roll It Out and Distribute to CBS to play out of defence in a more meaningful manner.

What about your defenders' anticipation, positioning, teamwork, concentration. Playing a high line also requires mentally aware players. 

When playing against a deep and narrow defence, I always increase playing width, reduce tempo, play with a counterpressing high block and add numbers into the penalty area without losing depth. It nearly always works because my players use all of the pitch with expansive passes while choosing the best passing options due to lower tempo.

I might try the Balanced mentality, though I do want players to go forwards and attack, I just want them to do it patiently. Though maybe that's a contradictory wish...

I'll give those suggestions a look, thanks again.

[frukox]

10 minutes ago, PenguinKenny said:

I might try the Balanced mentality, though I do want players to go forwards and attack, I just want them to do it patiently. Though maybe that's a contradictory wish...

I'll give those suggestions a look, thanks again.

Don't worry they will still go forward with an Attack Duty or with traits like Gets Forward Whenever Possible and so forth. 

Attacking doesn't make you better at attacking or defensive will make you better at defending. The only thing that matters is how you'd like to play when you are in possession of the ball. Patient? Try Cautious or Balanced. A bit aggressive? Positive and beyond. There is a great article by engamohd about mentalities and I definitely advise you to read that. Here's the link:

 

[PenguinKenny]

16 minutes ago, frukox said:

Don't worry they will still go forward with an Attack Duty or with traits like Gets Forward Whenever Possible and so forth. 

Attacking doesn't make you better at attacking or defensive will make you better at defending. The only thing that matters is how you'd like to play when you are in possession of the ball. Patient? Try Cautious or Balanced. A bit aggressive? Positive and beyond. There is a great article by engamohd about mentalities and I definitely advise you to read that. Here's the link:

 

I think I remember reading something like that a while ago for an older FM. I've clearly been getting frustrated with not scoring, which must have been a symptom of a bigger problem, which made me up my mentality and get me into this warped mindset.

Thanks again, I'll check it out to refresh my memory.

[Experienced Defender]

There is an obvious contradiction in your tactic - roles and duties are pretty much gung-ho whereas team instructions (at least in-possession ones) seem to be aimed at possession football (except for the attacking team mentality). Add to this a poor balance of your setup of roles and duties - more specifically, the left side of the setup is problematic, since there is no adequate midfield cover for the very attack-minded + roaming WB role on that flank - and half of the answer to your question is already there. 

Out-of-possession instructions look like a recipe for defensive disaster, especially in combination with the already mentioned imbalance of roles and duties. 

[PenguinKenny]

@Experienced Defender @frukox I've made some changes based on the feedback here and I think I have what is a more balanced tactic. I took all the instructions out and put it to Balanced as a clean slate. If you could provide some feedback I would greatly appreciate your continued assistance.

I move the tempo down to normal and the mentality up to Positive if I feel like we are not putting enough pressure on the opponent, but I have found in the couple of games I've played that this seems to strike the balance I want. I changed the AP(A) to an Enganche as I really want him to act as the main source of creativity, but I don't like how with AP(S) you can't choose Get Further Forward. I also changed the CM to a CM(D) on the side with the CWB to balance that better.

[Experienced Defender]

Before any potential feedback, are you pleased with the tactic or not? If not, why not?

[PenguinKenny]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Before any potential feedback, are you pleased with the tactic or not? If not, why not?

Yes I think it's certainly better than it was. I am hoping that as the players get more used to it and build partnerships it will improve. But they seem to be definitely doing what I had envisioned more now. I think I addressed the issues that people raised where I understood them and it does seem more balanced on the pitch.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, PenguinKenny said:

Yes I think it's certainly better than it was. I am hoping that as the players get more used to it and build partnerships it will improve. But they seem to be definitely doing what I had envisioned more now. I think I addressed the issues that people raised where I understood them and it does seem more balanced on the pitch.

Good. Then don't change anything (unless it stops working).