Help with 4231 / 433 Attacking / Counter Tactics

[Sassufan]

Hi all,

Returning to FM after a long time trying to re-adjust to how things are now.

I've been playing as Leeds, trying an attacking home tactic and a countering away tactic. I want to be progressive even when away, play attacking football but much more forward focussed rather than 'possession for possession's sake' if you like. Moving the ball forward but whilst not being long ball and still looking to retain possession but with a purpose.

I am noticing that I'm struggling to create CCCs which could just be due to the players, but any suggestions would be welcomed!

[Jack722]

• 4231
  • Looks decent but I notice two clear problems. Firstly, there isn't much of a link from your midfield to attack. Your CAM is going to be attacking the box while your CMs are conservative and your striker isn't dropping deep so much. My first suggestion would be to change one of your striker/CAM to a support duty in order to provide that link
  • Secondly, a 4231 is one of the most aggressive formations you can get and isn't actually very defensively solid due to the gaps between the wide forwards and fullbacks. I think you should either commit to being attacking, by adding counterpress and higher LOE, or commit to more of a midblock by moving your wide forwards down to the midfield strata.
• 433
  • 433 is also very attacking as it still has 3 forwards. Most teams that use midblocks, like you are doing right now, use two forwards max (442, 4141, 4411 etc) and again it's because of the gap between your wingers and fullbacks. Seeing as this is your counter tactic I would move your wingers down again to switch into a 4141. I would also use regroup instead of counterpress, to avoid getting hit on the counter as much when you play good sides away. However, if you still want to play attacking like you mentioned, just reuse the the 4231 instructions I stated above and keep the formation.
  • Your in-possession instructions suit attacking football more than counter attacking football. If you want to stay solid, you should instead ask your players to slow the play down a little and pass into feet rather than pass into space. Your players will still counter when the time is right, that is why counter has its own instruction.
  • In buildup, your supporting CM could get a bit stranded, due to the HB dropping between the CBs and the CMa joining the attack early. Look out for this to see if it is a problem, and if it is, consider changing either the HB or the CMa to something that holds its position better.

good luck.

[Sassufan]

2 hours ago, Jack722 said:

• 4231
  • Looks decent but I notice two clear problems. Firstly, there isn't much of a link from your midfield to attack. Your CAM is going to be attacking the box while your CMs are conservative and your striker isn't dropping deep so much. My first suggestion would be to change one of your striker/CAM to a support duty in order to provide that link
  • Secondly, a 4231 is one of the most aggressive formations you can get and isn't actually very defensively solid due to the gaps between the wide forwards and fullbacks. I think you should either commit to being attacking, by adding counterpress and higher LOE, or commit to more of a midblock by moving your wide forwards down to the midfield strata.
• 433
  • 433 is also very attacking as it still has 3 forwards. Most teams that use midblocks, like you are doing right now, use two forwards max (442, 4141, 4411 etc) and again it's because of the gap between your wingers and fullbacks. Seeing as this is your counter tactic I would move your wingers down again to switch into a 4141. I would also use regroup instead of counterpress, to avoid getting hit on the counter as much when you play good sides away. However, if you still want to play attacking like you mentioned, just reuse the the 4231 instructions I stated above and keep the formation.
  • Your in-possession instructions suit attacking football more than counter attacking football. If you want to stay solid, you should instead ask your players to slow the play down a little and pass into feet rather than pass into space. Your players will still counter when the time is right, that is why counter has its own instruction.
  • In buildup, your supporting CM could get a bit stranded, due to the HB dropping between the CBs and the CMa joining the attack early. Look out for this to see if it is a problem, and if it is, consider changing either the HB or the CMa to something that holds its position better.

good luck.

 

Thanks mate. I have changed the formations around a bit  to try to get around the lack of solidity in the away formation and stuck a DLP(s) in the first one.

 

One thing that i am trying to get my head around is the speed of attacks and where players should be positioned. If i am looking at a faster paced style does that allow you more room for players on attack duty?

[Jervaj]

16 hours ago, Jack722 said:

•  
  • Your in-possession instructions suit attacking football more than counter attacking football. If you want to stay solid, you should instead ask your players to slow the play down a little and pass into feet rather than pass into space. Your players will still counter when the time is right, that is why counter has its own instruction.

The in possesion instructions rarelly make you less counter attacking though. They rather define how do you attack when you are not counter attacking. I guess they potentially may mean that your focus is not just counter attacking, as you look for other chances at the risk of some defensive solidity. But I would say that been counter attacking is rather defined by your out of possesion TI, formation and roles/duties.

Even the counter TI is not as critical. It just means that your team will lower the conditions to attempt counters. Which, if you want that to be a notable part of your style you are likely using (and should), but you could perfectly be counter attacking without it. You will just be even more conservative.

13 hours ago, Flibby said:

One thing that i am trying to get my head around is the speed of attacks and where players should be positioned. If i am looking at a faster paced style does that allow you more room for players on attack duty?

Depends. Overall yes, but the important thing is the combination of the different aspects and how it all works together. Attack duty would mean that (everything else been the same) the player will surge forward earlier and more agressively when you recover the ball/during buildup. Having players and options ahead of the ball is important if you want to attack quickly and bring up the ball up the pitch, and also have others coming quickly to support from the second line so those up top don't get isolated. But more attacking duties by thesmelves won't do much.

If you want to be direct you will need people back too that can make the pass to those surging forward, or someone that can carry the ball quickly up the pitch by himself. Also it would be important that your overall tactic creates the space for those surging forward to run into.

If you want a shorter passing style, while still wanting to be quick, you would need to make sure the team moves up as a pack so they don't hit a wall where the attack transition stalls due to lack of options (your attacking duties may be too far from the ball carrier). 

In either case you need to account for the implications to avoid becoming vulnerable yourself on defence while doing this, and also how are you going to attack when the opposition is already in shape. As I said before you don't neccesarilly need agressive in possesion instructions to trigger counters (which by default are as quick as it gets).

[Sassufan]

Thanks for that.

From what you say i need to create space in behind the oppositions Defence, and therefore reduce the LoE if i want to attack with runners, rather than hitting a brick wall against the Defence, which is happening now.

What I have done here is to set a lower LOE. I want to go with shorter passing in the Defence opening up opportunities to get the ball to Midfield. Then once the ball is in the midfield I want to have my attacking players making runs and pass in behind from the wings.

What seems to be happening though is that the SS and DLG both just hang at the back line. I have put the wingers to more direct passing to try to encourage decisive passes but there is little opening up of space behind the opposition Defence.

 

This is my 

[Experienced Defender]

From the perspective of the playing styles you want to implement with these 2 tactics, the first one (4231) looks better balanced and makes more sense overall than the other (433 DM Wide). 

NOTE: I am referring to your original 4231 tactic (from the opening post), definitely not this latest one.