Thomas Tuchel's tactic at Chelsea

[afailed10]

Start with balanced mentality for a possession based system like Tuchel is known for. I haven't watched his Chelsea side so I can't give specifics but that's where I'd start.

Then you need to pay attention to roles. Wingback roles differ greatly in behavior and if you're using a player with low dribbling and flair as a CWB you will, literally, run into trouble lol. Basically with a 3CB system you're probably going to be doubled up in the flanks so make sure your CB's can deal with plenty of crosses. Then it's a matter of adjusting the right LOE and defensive line so you don't give too much space behind. The premier league is fruitful with dangerous strikers.

You'll also want to play out of defence too, but your cb's must be good with the ball as well as your midfielder that drops deep. Is Jorginho really trying to pick the ball deep? Or even Kovacic?

In the last image you're playing positive + higher tempo. With those settings you will transition quickly and there will be not enough time for the WB's to be a threat in attack. But if you give them enough time, will they have the ability to be dangerous?? Remember, attributes are the core of this game and has always been.

Edited March 2, 2021 by afailed10

[Guest]

3 hours ago, poma said:

This is what i have atm, haven't had the time to play so can't give you any feedback yet, but feel free to try the tactic. 

The following Pi's are given to:

RPM-S (Kovacic) - Dribble More

CM-S (Jorginho) - Hold Position

CWB-A (James) - Pass It Shorter & Take Fewer Risks

CD-D (Azpi) - Stay Wider

Set-pieces are default.

Chelsea 3-4-3.fmf 43.01 kB · 1 download

I am testing out my own version which I will share later, tested it with my save and now fired up a Chelsea save.

[Guest]

Starting to get that shape similar to Tuchels from that OP. It involves Azpi as a IWB on defend and an asymmetric formation for the rest but still needs some refining.

 

[halfspace3000]

5 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Starting to get that shape similar to Tuchels from that OP. It involves Azpi as a IWB on defend and an asymmetric formation for the rest but still needs some refining.

 

Interesting , may i ask why didnt you put the AML and AMR in the AMC postion?

[Guest]

9 hours ago, halfspace3000 said:

Interesting , may i ask why didnt you put the AML and AMR in the AMC postion?

One of them is actually an AMC(the one on the right) I found that the the two AMC's with Giroud were moving dynamically and actually causing chaos in the opposition defense but they were on top of each other a lot. When crosses came in to the box all three were lining up on top of each other to finish the chance rather than giving the person crossing options. Now I get some great interplay and movement from the front three in a measured well spaced sense.

I have just finished getting Kovacic and his role done and he is playing out a heck of a lot like irl. I have managed to make him hit those diagonals to Hudson Odoi/ Reece James. No I am on to some of the other areas and then more testing. I have been very pleasantly surprised with Azpi as a IWB with defend. He behaves like a CB for the most part but will also bomb down the flanks on occasion which does scare the heck out of me but must scare the heck out of the AI too plus Jorginho/Kante will provide him cover. I have a few other things to sort out too but it looks very promising.

 

You can see the elements coming together 

        

The high line with wide CB's in the attacking phase and Azpi in line with the other two actual CB's

 

 

That compact diamond that frees Chilwell and the other wide player in to huge space

Which Werner spots and we have this now

This then followed up by Werner and his pace getting in to the box and we have this nice mismatch because Diop and Coufal are in no mans land trying to get to Chiilwell so Giroud, Werner, Mount and James have a man advantage and Werner who is wide open slots home.

A quick look at the back at the end of that goal. Kovacic is lurking outside the area. Jorginho is a bit further back and a nice high three man Centre-back pairing albeit one being an Inverted Wingback so the chance of a successful counter is minimal we have the advantage in the box and in defence with how we have setup. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Guest]

Here again although I have a narrow setting on a  balanced mentality to retain possession it doesn't mean we are just going to clog up the midfield. West Ham are playing narrow defensively against us because we are well Chelsea I guess but Giroud has options and they are lined up just like Tuchel wants them to.

Giroud picks out Chilwell who is again in absolute acres of space and again we have a three on three situation here because Coufal is again having to move over to close down Chilwell. 

Again at the end of that missed chance we look at the back and Kovacic always literally stops pat on the line ready to pounce on a poor clearance, Jorginho is marking their lone striker and our back line are nice and high and with a 5 on 3 advantage at the back the chance of asuccesful counter is slim.

[halfspace3000]

1 hour ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Here again although I have a narrow setting on a  balanced mentality to retain possession it doesn't mean we are just going to clog up the midfield. West Ham are playing narrow defensively against us because we are well Chelsea I guess but Giroud has options and they are lined up just like Tuchel wants them to.

Giroud picks out Chilwell who is again in absolute acres of space and again we have a three on three situation here because Coufal is again having to move over to close down Chilwell. 

Again at the end of that missed chance we look at the back and Kovacic always literally stops pat on the line ready to pounce on a poor clearance, Jorginho is marking their lone striker and our back line are nice and high and with a 5 on 3 advantage at the back the chance of asuccesful counter is slim.

nice work cant wait to see the full tactic

 

[Guest]

Here is an example of the Dynamism that Azpi brings in his role, he has spotted James quite narrow so he decides he is going to make the run here. Again Azpi is in acres of space here but look at Jorginho, he has moved in to the space vacated by Rudiger who is playing the ball in to Azpi. This is ideal, just what i want.

Now let's talk about crossing and the perception that crossing is broken. 

At this point what I want from Mount is to be attacking that channel, if he does that then we have three in the box with James who is closest to Azpi making it four, the curious thing is that James attacks the box but more shallower providing more of an outlet for Azpi as opposed to a target but Mount out of no where decides he wants to go and support Azpi.

So now what we have is instead of a 3 vs 3 in the box we have a mismatch not in our favour. If Mount had been where that X is I have no doubt Azpi puts the ball in the box at this point.

 

Reality is that Mount put himself in a bad position and by the time he realized his mistake and tried to go in to the box the opportunity for a good chance is gone and Azpi with no options ends up banging it off the legs of the defender. And it's because of these situations where the wide-man is waiting for support in the box and then ends up with a poor options that makes people think crossing is broke. So these are things that need to be analyzed. Why did Mount do that, if it is a regular occurrence I need to take a look at the instructions he has or even the PPI's which one look at tells me could well be the problem. 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Guest]

So after a long analysis session the  game is over with West Ham. A lot of positives to take and some work still to be done. I rarely look at CCC's but 7 is quite good and helped make clear how dominant we were both up top and in defense. This is actually the third league game after losing narrowly to City in the dying seconds of the opening game of the season then beating Arsenal.  Mason Mount despite my annoyance at his one faux pas had 7 key passes and created 5 CCC's on his own so the role looks good the problem I think is that PPM.

[Guest]

On 28/02/2021 at 19:10, poma said:

Yeah I'm out of ideas soon 😁

Pre-season is very good but when season starts the team can't pass, shoot , cross, attack or defend. The whole team seems broken and I don't get why at all 😂 and I also use a wide 3 in attack 👍

I aim to prove you wrong on the passing shooting and attacking elements but I agree with you on the defending, but that is not match engine related. There isn't a single central defender(much like in real life?) that is fit for purpose for a team like Chelsea in that save. They all have glaring issues in differing ways. I was having so much fits with them last night that for awhile that I reverted back to my own save  where I know my defenders will behave better to test this. So if I started a save for real they would all be the first ones out the door. Christansen would be fine if he wasn't a complete wuss with 7 bravery and and 6 aggression so alas I literally would bin them all at the start of the save.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

 Mason Mount despite my annoyance at his one faux pas had 7 key passes and created 5 CCC's on his own so the role looks good the problem I think is that PPM.

Is he on corners? I wouldn't get too excited if he is 

The Azpi screenshots are very interesting, one second he has great support & options, the next he's blocked into a dead end, James & Mount do a disapearing act. PPI or not, he should be on the X but it looks like he went back to the halfway line   

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Is he on corners? I wouldn't get too excited if he is 

The Azpi screenshots are very interesting, one second he has great support & options, the next he's blocked into a dead end, James & Mount do a disapearing act. PPI or not, he should be on the X but it looks like he went back to the halfway line   

If there is a guy who can get 5 ccc from corners I want him. If you mean key passes I have had this discussion before about key passes and corners/free kicks on here and this was my response. 

If anyone is getting their majority of key passes from set plays that needs addressing on their end.

With regards to Mount, he was headed towards Azpi then twigged and changed and decided to head towards the box. By the time Azpi got to the byline both him and Reece are in the box occupying roughly the same spot with Creswell between them and Azpi. 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Johnny Ace]

Key Passes & CCC's are buggy right now, headers from corners & freekicks are counting as CCC's & the set-piece taker is getting credit with the Key Pass for "creating" them. You get really wonky CCC's from open play too. 

The system looks really interesting down that right -hand side either way 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Key Passes & CCC's are buggy right now, headers from corners & freekicks are counting as CCC's & the set-piece taker is getting credit with the Key Pass for "creating" them. You get really wonky CCC's from open play too. 

The system looks really interesting down that right -hand side either way 

Ohhh ok......well yes that I get which is why I said I rarely look at CCC'S, they aren't right at all in fact this was my point on why XG is better than CCCs in another thread.

On 01/02/2021 at 17:08, Crazy_Ivan said:

This is listed as a CCC and it's not a CCC imo when a attacker bangs a shot off of the defenders legs who is stood right in front of him, there are other issues too.

I literally put so little stock in CCC's that I had no idea that I am in the bottom half for them.

 

On 01/02/2021 at 17:24, Crazy_Ivan said:

Here is another btw....listed as a CCC, XG listed it as a 0.14 chance

 

 

 

On 01/02/2021 at 17:49, Crazy_Ivan said:

Very next game, played the first half I have one CCC and this is it. XG rates it 0.10, so I really beg to differ. If i was doing what you have and well done btw on the top notch effort put in I would take the CCCs on a case by cases basis when working your XG out.

 

[themadsheep2001]

5 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Ohhh ok......well yes that I get which is why I said I rarely look at CCC'S, they aren't right at all in fact this was my point on why XG is better than CCCs in another thread.

 

 

 

Really like the details here. And agree on CCCs. Even if they're working properly, there's not real reason to use it over XG tbh. 

[poma]

On 02/03/2021 at 18:11, Crazy_Ivan said:

I am testing out my own version which I will share later, tested it with my save and now fired up a Chelsea save.

I'm curious to see what you've got 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, poma said:

I'm curious to see what you've got 

I realised yesterday my Chelsea save wasn't saved to the cloud from my work PC so havent been in to work but will be later today.

Testing it on my 1860 Munich save at the moment. It's worked well on the Chelsea save albeit the results have been similar to Tuchels 1-0 wins to take us top after that opening day loss to City.

Beat Bayern 4-3 in Munich but the result doesn't cover how dominant we were with two of their goals comming from counters on corners which I hadn't set up properly. 

Will update later.

[Guest]

Another interesting moment which I really liked between what would be my Azpi and Jorginho. Dalvand is my Azpi and he's made that forward run. Not much in the box but he has plenty of support which alows him to not make the bad choice of banging it off the defenders legs instead he plays it back to Diani. 

Diani is my Jorginho and it's interesting he takes the ball on as the wide man but what I really liked is that the guy in the Azpi role is legging it to get back in line with the two CB's. It was an interesting interplay and because Eintracht number 20 is closing down Diani now there are now 4 of our players in the box against three of their defenders.

[Guest]

So here is where it is at so far. No you don't need to adjust your set we are top having scored 11 goals in 10 matches however only having conceded 1. I am not panicking however and I will explain why a bit later.

The timid nature in front of goal hasn't been a problem in the CL.

So for one thing the dominance in defence is underlined in the fact that we have a great XGA against us.

Our possession numbers are good and getting better, I expect us to be near 59/60% by seasons end. Our passing % joint best too

You can see where the main issues are right now obviously at the amount of goals we have scored. And when you look at the XG you can see a bit of a problem and a number that simply is not good enough for a team like Chelsea.

However despite this it still means we are underperforming our XG so a further look shows that we are 4th bottom in shots on target  and conversion % which is grim considering the talent at our disposal

I am however not going to panic or make wholesale changes because our U18 team using the same tactics are seeing the same defensive and possession numbers albeit some worse and some better.

But aren't slouching in XG, shots on target% or conversion rate which is leading to the fact that our U18 team has conceded the least and scored the most goals in the entire U18 leagues.

This is something that has been repeated in the champions league albeit it is harder to get clear stats considering some teams have played decidedly more matches but you can see we are right up there with the best in shooting% and conversion ratio.

So now I have to do a deep dive in to the front three who are supposed to be putting the ball in the back because it's something I have neglected. My suspicions are the problem is both a bit of my fault and the players fault.  I have already discovered that I really don't like Werners mentals namely his anticipation, decisions and teamwork. If you watch matches closely  if he he has to think about it he makes some terrible choices and I don't think he suits it tbh. He also at 24 and per the coaches report is not going to get better so stuff like this is where I need to have a long hard look.

So on that basis I will release tactically what I have tomorrow.

You can see the dominance from the Kovacic/Jorginho partnership with 200 passes between them in our last match. This is achieved by playing out from the back but not putting the CB's as BPD's to ensure nearly everything goes through those two.

I have a suspicion most people will not agree with me on the Halfback role for Jorginho but if we are going to retain that defensive solidity when Azpi decides to bomb up the middle or the flanks then we need him to drop in and maintain our back 3. I really enjoy the fact that both Azpi and Jorginho will cover for each other like in this scenario where Jorginho who had been higher up  moving back to cover for Azpi being forward.

The benefits of Azpi making those runs is allowing Reece James to make more of an impact in the box which is how we broke a stubborn Wolves side allowing Reece James to draw players towards him and creating a 3 vs 3 in the box allowing Ziyech to nip in and break the deadlock.

The one other point about Jorginhos role is that he is impacting the game higher up the pitch as you can see from his heatmap and we also see that shuttling horizontally mentioned in the article posted in the OP so the HB role is not taking anything away in that aspect.

Plenty more to come and I will post everything tomorrow time permitting.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Mart44]

On 03/03/2021 at 05:29, Crazy_Ivan said:

Starting to get that shape similar to Tuchels from that OP. It involves Azpi as a IWB on defend and an asymmetric formation for the rest but still needs some refining.

 

Like this but it doesn’t make sense to me for the IFB and the DLP to be next to each other, don’t they just stand on top of each other? I’d swap the DLP to the other side.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Mart44 said:

Like this but it doesn’t make sense to me for the IFB and the DLP to be next to each other, don’t they just stand on top of each other? I’d swap the DLP to the other side.

No quite the opposite as I posted in my last post just as you posted yours they complement each other quite well. He is not a DLP he is a HB but because he very rarely has to move in to that defensive line he does a heck of a lot of work in attack.

You can see the position he takes in attack here

And here you can seen how the HB(Jorginho) does slot in to the defensive phase when the IWB does decide to attack.

In defense because he has three defenders behind him he behaves like a defensive midfielder. Frequently defending on the flanks as well as the center.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Mart44]

I will experiment with that idea. I’ve found the HB a bit limiting previously as he is always dropping between the centre halves and I’ve felt that is a waste offensively. I’ve come round to the idea of wanting only 2 left behind with a bit of cover. I swapped your setup around and this works pretty well. My main issue is that my AM(c) doesn’t seem to stay that wide despite an instruction to do so.

[Mart44]

[poma]

2 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

So here is where it is at so far. No you don't need to adjust your set we are top having scored 11 goals in 10 matches however only having conceded 1. I am not panicking however and I will explain why a bit later.

The timid nature in front of goal hasn't been a problem in the CL.

So for one thing the dominance in defence is underlined in the fact that we have a great XGA against us.

Our possession numbers are good and getting better, I expect us to be near 59/60% by seasons end. Our passing % joint best too

You can see where the main issues are right now obviously at the amount of goals we have scored. And when you look at the XG you can see a bit of a problem and a number that simply is not good enough for a team like Chelsea.

However despite this it still means we are underperforming our XG so a further look shows that we are 4th bottom in shots on target  and conversion % which is grim considering the talent at our disposal

I am however not going to panic or make wholesale changes because our U18 team using the same tactics are seeing the same defensive and possession numbers albeit some worse and some better.

But aren't slouching in XG, shots on target% or conversion rate which is leading to the fact that our U18 team has conceded the least and scored the most goals in the entire U18 leagues.

This is something that has been repeated in the champions league albeit it is harder to get clear stats considering some teams have played decidedly more matches but you can see we are right up there with the best in shooting% and conversion ratio.

So now I have to do a deep dive in to the front three who are supposed to be putting the ball in the back because it's something I have neglected. My suspicions are the problem is both a bit of my fault and the players fault.  I have already discovered that I really don't like Werners mentals namely his anticipation, decisions and teamwork. If you watch matches closely  if he he has to think about it he makes some terrible choices and I don't think he suits it tbh. He also at 24 and per the coaches report is not going to get better so stuff like this is where I need to have a long hard look.

So on that basis I will release tactically what I have tomorrow.

You can see the dominance from the Kovacic/Jorginho partnership with 200 passes between them in our last match. This is achieved by playing out from the back but not putting the CB's as BPD's to ensure nearly everything goes through those two.

I have a suspicion most people will not agree with me on the Halfback role for Jorginho but if we are going to retain that defensive solidity when Azpi decides to bomb up the middle or the flanks then we need him to drop in and maintain our back 3. I really enjoy the fact that both Azpi and Jorginho will cover for each other like in this scenario where Jorginho who had been higher up  moving back to cover for Azpi being forward.

The benefits of Azpi making those runs is allowing Reece James to make more of an impact in the box which is how we broke a stubborn Wolves side allowing Reece James to draw players towards him and creating a 3 vs 3 in the box allowing Ziyech to nip in and break the deadlock.

The one other point about Jorginhos role is that he is impacting the game higher up the pitch as you can see from his heatmap and we also see that shuttling horizontally mentioned in the article posted in the OP so the HB role is not taking anything away in that aspect.

Plenty more to come and I will post everything tomorrow time permitting.

 

 

 

 

Awesomeness 

[Guest]

On 06/03/2021 at 13:22, poma said:

Awesomeness 

I haven't forgotten about this. Only just got on this morning but I think I have just discovered a flaw that's been staring me in the face for awhile regarding the attacking phase and how I set this up with Reece James/CHO role. 

[poma]

7 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I haven't forgotten about this. Only just got on this morning but I think I have just discovered a flaw that's been staring me in the face for awhile regarding the attacking phase and how I set this up with Reece James/CHO role. 

  

[Guest]

The state of play as is. After the changes made things have clicked in the last few games with the added caveat that I haven't played Liverpool yet. The interplay up front between the front four(I include Reece James as he gets in the box quite often) has been very nice to watch the last few games and the changes made has now made Kai Havertz in that AMC spot score 3 in 3 games.

Now suddenly the under the hood numbers are looking much better.

Conversion rates and shots on target% are climbing.

 

So here is that tactic as it stands now!

I need to add one confession here. I altered the Central Defenders and only the Central Defenders attributes a tad. For Zouma and Rudiger I changed just their Anticipation, Concentration and Positioning all to15. For Christansen I changed his Aggression and Bravery to 11.  These are the very basics I would require from any defender in the PL never mind Chelsea. Pace and acceleration of 12 is more than enough for me so if I actually started as Chelsea in a game all three of those CB's would be sold and I would be targeting people like Eric Garcia or heck any defender that met my minimal requirements or at least are young and can grow in to those attributes fast like Ahmedhodzic.

Balanced mentality which I feel is optimal for retaining possession with the added possession instructions of playing out from the back with added instructions like narrow width, playing out from the back, shorter passing all to retain possession. Low crosses were added to get those pullbacks and inverted passes from Chillwell.

And the focus down the right was one of the changes made recently along with switching the forward to a False 9, coincidentally as I made those changes I started looking for some material on Tuchel at Chelsea and found this excellent piece which covers both the F( and the overload on the right.

https://breakingthelines.com/tactical-analysis/tactical-analysis-the-first-weeks-of-thomas-tuchels-chelsea/

 

A few points to make regarding the roles.

Trying to find the balance on here for a tactic that is a recreation is difficult and I still haven't fully experimented enough to cover a few of the roles.

The HB role will be maligned a lot on here but personally the only problem I have with it in this system is that he doesn't interchange with the Kovacic role at all but in terms of how he behaves in the tactic he covers a heck of a lot and is crucial in a lot of areas. Because of the fact that he actually has three defenders behind him he rarely drops in as a defender. 

Quite often he is our Quarterback in the team.

He has the 2nd highest pass attempts in the entire league so between him and Kovacic nearly everything begins with the two of them.

In defence he tends to be more of terrier, shuttling horizontally to break up chances and I have to say I really like the role personally and what it adds to it.

 

Another area that won't mimic real life is defence, trying to get that dynamic movement from Azpilicueta whilst also having Reece James in makes things tricky. What I do have is a back three most of the time. 

In defensive phases a heck of a lot that will morph in to a traditional back 4.

The main issues in defence and because in parts this can be quite the risky tactic especially when Azpilicueta does decide to join the attack is that the defenders need to have the required attributes.

In this instance one of the few goals conceded this season is by Zouma who is very lacking in composure and passing ability lumps it up the field (as soon as Watkins pressures him) straight to the Villa midfielders who fire it back incredibly quickly to Grealish who is wide open and just coasts through that wide open channel to score. 

Individual role instructions are as such

Feel free to critique or ask questions because this isn't by any means  the finished product there are areas that can be changed and improved and I would love any civil discourse.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[poma]

7 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Individual role instructions are as such

 

 

What positions do they mark?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, poma said:

What positions do they mark?

The opposition Fullbacks if there are any. 

[poma]

Just now, Crazy_Ivan said:

The opposition Fullbacks if there are any. 

Ok, or wingbacks?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, poma said:

Ok, or wingbacks?

Just fullbacks!

We have just dominated the 4th placed possession hungry Leeds

You can see the benefits of having a system that completely frees your wide players and gets attackers in numbers in box waiting. The third goal comes from Pulisic cutting inside(taking a marker with) who feeds it to Jorginho who is open in that deep QB position and this is why I love someone like Jorginho in a HB role because he won't get any credit but he spots Alonso in acres of space and with those attributes hits a pin point pass out to Alonso.

Now to show why crossing isn't broken and I hope it was noted Chelsea have the top crossing conversion stats in my save. Because the team have shifted Leeds around so much it's chaos at the back for Leeds and we have a 3 on 2 advantage in the box and Alonso has no need to wait any longer or indeed take on Ayling. He can see options are there in the box puts the cross in and Havertz finishes it nicely.

The 4th, again the ball is recycled under pressure and this time Azpi seeing that wide space open on the right makes that move which Jorjginho (who is under pressure this time) spots and he hits that pass out wide to Azpi who just as Alioski gets close to him puts that cross in just as Pulisic is getting away from his man.

 

As an aside I doubt many would have guessed this at the start of the season. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[nexting]

Are you playing Havertz as a F9 or AM, where do you see Kante fitting in?

[poma]

I have to say WOW, stable tactic in every way, great combinations between players and positions. Have not lost a game since I applied this setup!

13 games unbeaten ( 11 wins, 2 draws )

The only problem I have now is that I am useless on set-pieces, many points could be lost or won so If I succeed with that the tactic is as complete as it can be!

(would like to add that I bought Niklas Süle and Erling Haaland, otherwise no changes in the squad.)

Cheers and thanx 

Edited March 9, 2021 by poma

[jsouthern96]

Hi guys, 

I have been following this thread for a while and now i've had some time off work i decided to see how i could get on with my own go at a Tuchel tactic and sign up to share my experience. 

I am wanting to do a little write up but i'm struggling to find out how to add images like above to my post. Can someone give me some pointers? 

Thank you! 

 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, poma said:

I have to say WOW, stable tactic in every way, great combinations between players and positions. Have not lost a game since I applied this setup!

The only problem I have now is that I am useless on set-pieces, many points could be lost or won so If I succeed with that the tactic is as complete as it can be!

(would like to add that I bought Niklas Süle and Erling Haaland, otherwise no changes in the squad.)

Cheers and thanx 

Try these, the only thing to make sure is you have the guys with the right bravery and jumping reach in the key spots.

Untitled Routine Collection.fmf

[poma]

4 minutes ago, jsouthern96 said:

Hi guys, 

I have been following this thread for a while and now i've had some time off work i decided to see how i could get on with my own go at a Tuchel tactic and sign up to share my experience. 

I am wanting to do a little write up but i'm struggling to find out how to add images like above to my post. Can someone give me some pointers? 

Thank you! 

 

You can attach files/images when you write your post/comment 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, nexting said:

Are you playing Havertz as a F9 or AM, where do you see Kante fitting in?

I used Havertz as a AMC but then switched him to the F9 role. I frequently use midfielders in that role if they have the right mental attributes and Havertz has those and all the rest(some still need work) to be key in that role.. The only think that will take a knock till they adapt to the role is a small hit to their decision making. Once they are proficient that is not a problem anymore.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Guest]

Oh and I just sold Kante. He doesn't fit in to the tactic too well attribute wise namely his passing and I am not a fan of his height either. He was a good back-up to Jorginho but not a long term challenger and it is easier and more cost efficient to get another player in that can grow in to the role and eventually replace Jorginho,

[jsouthern96]

Hi guys, 

This is my first proper post so sorry if it's long or a bit too wordy! 

I have been following Chelsea closely since they appointed Tuchel as manager and I thought I would give his tactic a go.

The Tactic

This is the final build of the tactic. During a lot of the season I was experimenting and tinkering with player roles to get to a final build that I am extremely happy with.

On transfers, I only bought in one defender in January after Azpilacueta requested to leave.

The first half of the Premier League season, we were too passive with the ball and only managed to score 26 goals in 19 games With Timo Werner being top scorer with 6 goals. 

After the half way point, I changed the roles of the front three and really started to see the rewards. 

We finished the season second top scorers, scoring 68 goals, Tammy scored 13 and Timo 16 with Mason Mount getting 9 assists. We also had the second best defence, conceding only 20 goals.

We finished the season top of the possession statistics by having 60% on average per game. We also made 4100 more passes than any other team over the course of the season making 20843 passes over the 38 games (average of 548.5 passes per game). 

Average position against lower opposition (6-0 win vs Burnley)

Average positions against similar opposition (2-0 Win vs Dortmund)

 

Average positions vs higher opposition (3-1 Win vs Bayern)

 

The final build

 

 

The positives

• Possession

The possession statistics in this tactic were very similar to those of Chelsea in real life. Being dominant on the ball and having players comfortable in a variety of areas of the pitch was critical to the success of this tactic. The fluidity and versatility of key players, alongside the passing quality within the squad meant we could dominate most teams we faced and pick out those key passes into our forward three with quick, precise movement.

• More Clinical

After the half way point of the season before I tweaked the tactic, we went from being passive on the ball to being much more dangerous. Our biggest win in the first 19 games was a 3-0 victory over Fulham.

Once the tweak was implemented, we enjoyed a 6-0 win over Burnley, a 7-1 win over West Ham and a 5-1 win over high flying Leeds. The personal goal scoring stats as above were also greatly improved.

 

• Availability

One key issue I noticed at first with my tactic was the options on the ball. My players were very static and almost scared to roam from their positions. I aimed to make my team play in a way in which the ball carrier would always have two or three options available to make a pass. As below, in the first image, as others have posted, I aimed to create a diamond shape between my front three and my most advanced central midfielder, Kovacic. As the ball progresses up the pitch I wanted them to be able to roam, swap positions but always have this shape or as close to this as possible. 

In the second image, I was extremely happy with my teams positioning when we regain the ball in the middle of the pitch. As Kovacic picks up the ball in a deeper area, he instantly has four or five viable passing options in order to advance the ball. 

 

• Bodies in the box

I am a big believer of packing the box with bodies in order to pressurise defenders and create gaps and opportunities for your strikers. In the below example against Tottenham, I was happy to see my attacking front three and also my winger urgently getting into the box in order to give Chilwell options as he moves towards the box. This move actually ends in Hudson-Odoi scoring a back post header as the covering center back was occupied by Mason Mount, leaving the Tottenham full back to drop in extremely narrow into a position they aren't comfortable in.

 

The Negatives

• Space in behind

The most frustrating aspect of this tactic was the amount of times teams scored via long balls over the top into the highlighted spaces. Granted, we had the second best defence in the league so I can't be too critical but I feel like it's only fair to give both positives and negatives from my one season so far.

In the first image, a lofted ball from Kouyate cuts straight through our defence for Zaha to get onto the end of and score. While I know these can happen to any team and are extremely hard to counteract, I was worried to see the two spare players on the far side of the pitch in acres of space.

In the second image, it was again a long ball from deep into the space between my central and right hand center back that we couldn't seem to deal with. 

 

 

• Mason Mount

I am an extremely big fan of Mason Mount in real life and also on Football Manager. I think he is such a well rounded player which a great eye for goal. Which unfortunately, seemed to be missing for him in our Premier League campaign as he scored just 5 goals in 34 appearances. He was scoring in other competitions though so I am hoping next season, he can add to his tally. 

Season results 

Please see below the performance in all competitions this season.

 

[Experienced Defender]

@FMunderachiever Unfortunately, I had to remove your comment as unacceptably toxic. Please try to be more constructive when posting in the forums. 

[Cult of Football Manager]

I haven't really got much to add I was just reading through & I Just wanted to say great thread and great contributions from lots of different people in here good to see on the forums! 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager

[Sebo99]

Very nice Tactic Recreations can someone please send the downloads of the finally result thanks

[Flußkrebs]

On 09/03/2021 at 13:00, Crazy_Ivan said:

The state of play as is. After the changes made things have clicked in the last few games with the added caveat that I haven't played Liverpool yet. The interplay up front between the front four(I include Reece James as he gets in the box quite often) has been very nice to watch the last few games and the changes made has now made Kai Havertz in that AMC spot score 3 in 3 games.

Now suddenly the under the hood numbers are looking much better.

Conversion rates and shots on target% are climbing.

 

So here is that tactic as it stands now!

I need to add one confession here. I altered the Central Defenders and only the Central Defenders attributes a tad. For Zouma and Rudiger I changed just their Anticipation, Concentration and Positioning all to15. For Christansen I changed his Aggression and Bravery to 11.  These are the very basics I would require from any defender in the PL never mind Chelsea. Pace and acceleration of 12 is more than enough for me so if I actually started as Chelsea in a game all three of those CB's would be sold and I would be targeting people like Eric Garcia or heck any defender that met my minimal requirements or at least are young and can grow in to those attributes fast like Ahmedhodzic.

Balanced mentality which I feel is optimal for retaining possession with the added possession instructions of playing out from the back with added instructions like narrow width, playing out from the back, shorter passing all to retain possession. Low crosses were added to get those pullbacks and inverted passes from Chillwell.

And the focus down the right was one of the changes made recently along with switching the forward to a False 9, coincidentally as I made those changes I started looking for some material on Tuchel at Chelsea and found this excellent piece which covers both the F( and the overload on the right.

https://breakingthelines.com/tactical-analysis/tactical-analysis-the-first-weeks-of-thomas-tuchels-chelsea/

 

A few points to make regarding the roles.

Trying to find the balance on here for a tactic that is a recreation is difficult and I still haven't fully experimented enough to cover a few of the roles.

The HB role will be maligned a lot on here but personally the only problem I have with it in this system is that he doesn't interchange with the Kovacic role at all but in terms of how he behaves in the tactic he covers a heck of a lot and is crucial in a lot of areas. Because of the fact that he actually has three defenders behind him he rarely drops in as a defender. 

Quite often he is our Quarterback in the team.

He has the 2nd highest pass attempts in the entire league so between him and Kovacic nearly everything begins with the two of them.

In defence he tends to be more of terrier, shuttling horizontally to break up chances and I have to say I really like the role personally and what it adds to it.

 

Another area that won't mimic real life is defence, trying to get that dynamic movement from Azpilicueta whilst also having Reece James in makes things tricky. What I do have is a back three most of the time. 

In defensive phases a heck of a lot that will morph in to a traditional back 4.

The main issues in defence and because in parts this can be quite the risky tactic especially when Azpilicueta does decide to join the attack is that the defenders need to have the required attributes.

In this instance one of the few goals conceded this season is by Zouma who is very lacking in composure and passing ability lumps it up the field (as soon as Watkins pressures him) straight to the Villa midfielders who fire it back incredibly quickly to Grealish who is wide open and just coasts through that wide open channel to score. 

Individual role instructions are as such

Feel free to critique or ask questions because this isn't by any means  the finished product there are areas that can be changed and improved and I would love any civil discourse.

Just resurrecting this thread as I have been trying out this tactic (with some slight tweaks) on my current Journeyman save. I took over a just relegated NEC team so for our first season in the Keuken Kampioen division I thought the squad had a number of characteristics to play a style of football like this:

-Exceptionally technical players 

-Strongest team in the division

-Lack of pacey strikers and/or attacking mids (1 pacey attacking winger). 

I just want to say that the tactic has worked phenomenally well defensively. I struggled with 2 things which led to connected changes. 

1) Struggling with balls over the top due to lack of pace at the back and/or a missing an extremely aggressive sweeper keeper. 

2) Struggling to convert massive dominance in and around the box into shots on goal from open play

I therefore lowered the defensive and engagement lines to higher. I found that with max pressing this maintained similar levels of possession and turn overs, but helped with both of the above problems. It cut down on balls over the top significantly, and also led to slightly more space for the opposition to play in, and therefore more opportunities to score counter attacking goals (although these are still low, due to the nature of the tactic). 

I also have tried changing the IF(s) into an IF(a). This has led to many more shots and also goals from the forward line. Due to the man marking and pressing instructions, the IF(a) still tracks back a good amount and presses enough. However, there is a trade off with ball control centrally. The IF(s) is important when trying to assert control in the opponents final third, against say strong opposition away, or heavily possession based teams. So it is a situational change I make depending on the opposition. 

Results have been brilliant- undefeated in the league up to the first period of the league, top of the league etc, best defence in the league and 3rd or 4th best attack. The style of football is also very fun to watch. Sometimes when playing against lower opposition I turn the tactic to positive and add dribble less. This is some of my favourite attacking play in the game, dazzling 1 and 2 touch passing around the box. Not entirely convinced these changes actually help, but its definitely even more fun to watch.

--------------------------------------

Separately, I think that Tuchel's Chelsea tactics have been subtly different with the Kovacic-Kante double pivot that has been used a little more in recent games. From what I can tell from watching the games, Kovacic, playing on the left still, becomes the deeper lying midfielder, and Kante plays higher up the pitch but with an emphasis on doing, well, Kante things. 

Trying to think how this would it as a variant of the above tactic, there are a couple of options. One would be to switch the roles over and change the RPM into a BBM or BWM.

         F9 

  IF         AM

              BWMs      W

CWB HB         

          CD CD IWBD

This is a little off balance to me. I think maybe it would need the W to be knocked down to a CWB. The HB, given the right player traits, would still act as a deep lying distributor (like the 'jorginho' role does in the original tactic). I've also considered playing Kante as a Segundo Volante which would get some of the behaviour right (although that might be overthinking things- BWMs in the CM slot seems to get it right imo and is simpler). 

However, whilst Kovacic has been playing slightly more in a holding role recently (as Kante has been roaming up and down the pitch), he has still been doing Kovacic like things on the ball, i.e. driving at players, dribbling, playmaking etc. Perhaps a RPM in the DM slot? It is a difficult one to get the balance right for in FM I think, but interested if anyone has any thoughts on the slightly newer look Chelsea. 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Flußkrebs

[poma]

On 09/03/2021 at 20:13, jsouthern96 said:

Hi guys, 

This is my first proper post so sorry if it's long or a bit too wordy! 

I have been following Chelsea closely since they appointed Tuchel as manager and I thought I would give his tactic a go.

The Tactic

This is the final build of the tactic. During a lot of the season I was experimenting and tinkering with player roles to get to a final build that I am extremely happy with.

On transfers, I only bought in one defender in January after Azpilacueta requested to leave.

The first half of the Premier League season, we were too passive with the ball and only managed to score 26 goals in 19 games With Timo Werner being top scorer with 6 goals. 

After the half way point, I changed the roles of the front three and really started to see the rewards. 

We finished the season second top scorers, scoring 68 goals, Tammy scored 13 and Timo 16 with Mason Mount getting 9 assists. We also had the second best defence, conceding only 20 goals.

We finished the season top of the possession statistics by having 60% on average per game. We also made 4100 more passes than any other team over the course of the season making 20843 passes over the 38 games (average of 548.5 passes per game). 

Average position against lower opposition (6-0 win vs Burnley)

Average positions against similar opposition (2-0 Win vs Dortmund)

 

Average positions vs higher opposition (3-1 Win vs Bayern)

 

The final build

 

 

The positives

• Possession

The possession statistics in this tactic were very similar to those of Chelsea in real life. Being dominant on the ball and having players comfortable in a variety of areas of the pitch was critical to the success of this tactic. The fluidity and versatility of key players, alongside the passing quality within the squad meant we could dominate most teams we faced and pick out those key passes into our forward three with quick, precise movement.

• More Clinical

After the half way point of the season before I tweaked the tactic, we went from being passive on the ball to being much more dangerous. Our biggest win in the first 19 games was a 3-0 victory over Fulham.

Once the tweak was implemented, we enjoyed a 6-0 win over Burnley, a 7-1 win over West Ham and a 5-1 win over high flying Leeds. The personal goal scoring stats as above were also greatly improved.

 

• Availability

One key issue I noticed at first with my tactic was the options on the ball. My players were very static and almost scared to roam from their positions. I aimed to make my team play in a way in which the ball carrier would always have two or three options available to make a pass. As below, in the first image, as others have posted, I aimed to create a diamond shape between my front three and my most advanced central midfielder, Kovacic. As the ball progresses up the pitch I wanted them to be able to roam, swap positions but always have this shape or as close to this as possible. 

In the second image, I was extremely happy with my teams positioning when we regain the ball in the middle of the pitch. As Kovacic picks up the ball in a deeper area, he instantly has four or five viable passing options in order to advance the ball. 

 

• Bodies in the box

I am a big believer of packing the box with bodies in order to pressurise defenders and create gaps and opportunities for your strikers. In the below example against Tottenham, I was happy to see my attacking front three and also my winger urgently getting into the box in order to give Chilwell options as he moves towards the box. This move actually ends in Hudson-Odoi scoring a back post header as the covering center back was occupied by Mason Mount, leaving the Tottenham full back to drop in extremely narrow into a position they aren't comfortable in.

 

The Negatives

• Space in behind

The most frustrating aspect of this tactic was the amount of times teams scored via long balls over the top into the highlighted spaces. Granted, we had the second best defence in the league so I can't be too critical but I feel like it's only fair to give both positives and negatives from my one season so far.

In the first image, a lofted ball from Kouyate cuts straight through our defence for Zaha to get onto the end of and score. While I know these can happen to any team and are extremely hard to counteract, I was worried to see the two spare players on the far side of the pitch in acres of space.

In the second image, it was again a long ball from deep into the space between my central and right hand center back that we couldn't seem to deal with. 

 

 

• Mason Mount

I am an extremely big fan of Mason Mount in real life and also on Football Manager. I think he is such a well rounded player which a great eye for goal. Which unfortunately, seemed to be missing for him in our Premier League campaign as he scored just 5 goals in 34 appearances. He was scoring in other competitions though so I am hoping next season, he can add to his tally. 

Season results 

Please see below the performance in all competitions this season.

 

No Pi's or other settings than the info given in your post?

[Guv'nor]

Marcos Alonso’s underlapping of Timo Werner has been a feature at times, worth a sprinkle. 

[poma]

19 hours ago, Guv'nor said:

Marcos Alonso’s underlapping of Timo Werner has been a feature at times, worth a sprinkle. 

Good observation there 

[Guv'nor]

In ode to Mankind, for all the strides made by AI, distances akin to the marathon runner, it has a long way to go before it can emulate the complexity of man.

Now to the tactics. Are you making these changes, some sweeping, between games? If so, the further the formation drifts from the familiar, the more fruitless the change. Tactical familiarity. Pre-Season is the perfect time to test shapes, strategies, situational ideas. In addition to altering training regimes, I cancel friendlies for the reserves, promote U19s or whatever they're called (depending on league nation), thus swelling the squad available for selection. In some leagues training camps are arranged, with a limit of the number of players that can be taken. If the latter is the case, they're canceled. 

There follows a gluttony of friendlies, to compensate for their exertions, match practice is taken out of the training schedule, they're getting enough. Match Reviews, Recovery sessions and a few holistic sessions are added in. 

The squads heavily rotated to keep players fresh and sharp. 

The point of the above is, pre-season is key, big tactical changes between games will have a deleterious effect on TF, the produce of which will often be a lesser yield. 

There are many approaches to tactic creation, my preference is to start with a the base concept (the numerical representation ie. I want 2 defenders, 6 midfielders, 2 forwards etc etc), then decide on a complimentary shape. I default every role as much as position, leaving less to the hardcoding and more to the ME's interpretation of a player's ability. This means none of the fancily named roles and more of the basic ones. More Allardyce, less Allardychi. No BPD, just CDs, no Volantes, Registas, Trequartistas etc etc, just CMs, Wingers or Wide Midfielders...you get the drift. As much as is possible, players are set to Automatic mentality or Support. This places greater emphasis on the team mentality and greater clarity on what a player can do (how they've been coded).

Granted some players are designed for the Fancy Dan role, but we're only given half of the story. Player A might be a 4 star Enganche, but do they have uniformity in that rating across all shapes and systems? Their coding reflects ability in a role within a certain cluster of systems. 

Through the blank canvas (no PIs) and basic roles, a stepwise approach towards identifying the point of maximal output for a player in a system of choice, is taken. The odd Excel spreadsheet has come in handy when taking on online challenges. 

Aside from the first friendly, all subsequent friendlies are viewed as 2 games. Tactical changes are only made at the end of the first game (half-time). Games are watched in full or Comprehensive, this gives a good depiction of whats going on, not just on the pitch but under the bonnet. 

By the end of the Match Practicing phase, I'll have arrived at a shape, roles and list of situational changes (usually just Tempo and Mentality).  Training is then focused for a week on Tactical Familiarity and observations from the Matches ie. if I found my players playing hot potato with the ball in both phases of play on a number of occasions, more POFTB and Chance Creation sessions etc etc. The aim is to train the weaknesses observed not the expected. 

 

Why all the preamble? In a nutshell, to show why you mightn't be getting the results desired with sweeping changes. Do you save all systems into the 3 Tactic slots? Check to make sure they're being trained. Also, if making considerable changes to your tactics, adjust your training to speed up familiarisation. Watch a game on full, see where you're being exploited and take those observed weaknesses to the training ground.

Having setup your team a certain way, for the above reasons, it will be difficult to see immediate return on big changes. 

I've tried to recreate Tuchel's Chelsea using an asymmetric 3-4-2-1, CHO as a winger and Alonso as a wingback. Werner as an IF. Getting the Alonso underlaps was a challenge, as an inverted wingback he went full circus.

Goodluck. 

[palmamiguel92]

This has actually helped me quite a bit but what im going for in my save is a 3421 closer to what Frankfurt is doing. When i see their real life average positions, both attacking mids are almost on top of eachother very very close to the striker but in fm im not getting it quite right. Tried using shadow strikers even but they drop deeper when i go see the average positions. 

[poma]

Had a great 1st season:

 

[micra69]

On 10/03/2021 at 03:13, jsouthern96 said:

Hi guys, 

This is my first proper post so sorry if it's long or a bit too wordy! 

I have been following Chelsea closely since they appointed Tuchel as manager and I thought I would give his tactic a go.

The Tactic

This is the final build of the tactic. During a lot of the season I was experimenting and tinkering with player roles to get to a final build that I am extremely happy with.

On transfers, I only bought in one defender in January after Azpilacueta requested to leave.

The first half of the Premier League season, we were too passive with the ball and only managed to score 26 goals in 19 games With Timo Werner being top scorer with 6 goals. 

After the half way point, I changed the roles of the front three and really started to see the rewards. 

We finished the season second top scorers, scoring 68 goals, Tammy scored 13 and Timo 16 with Mason Mount getting 9 assists. We also had the second best defence, conceding only 20 goals.

We finished the season top of the possession statistics by having 60% on average per game. We also made 4100 more passes than any other team over the course of the season making 20843 passes over the 38 games (average of 548.5 passes per game). 

Average position against lower opposition (6-0 win vs Burnley)

Average positions against similar opposition (2-0 Win vs Dortmund)

 

Average positions vs higher opposition (3-1 Win vs Bayern)

 

The final build

 

 

The positives

• Possession

The possession statistics in this tactic were very similar to those of Chelsea in real life. Being dominant on the ball and having players comfortable in a variety of areas of the pitch was critical to the success of this tactic. The fluidity and versatility of key players, alongside the passing quality within the squad meant we could dominate most teams we faced and pick out those key passes into our forward three with quick, precise movement.

• More Clinical

After the half way point of the season before I tweaked the tactic, we went from being passive on the ball to being much more dangerous. Our biggest win in the first 19 games was a 3-0 victory over Fulham.

Once the tweak was implemented, we enjoyed a 6-0 win over Burnley, a 7-1 win over West Ham and a 5-1 win over high flying Leeds. The personal goal scoring stats as above were also greatly improved.

 

• Availability

One key issue I noticed at first with my tactic was the options on the ball. My players were very static and almost scared to roam from their positions. I aimed to make my team play in a way in which the ball carrier would always have two or three options available to make a pass. As below, in the first image, as others have posted, I aimed to create a diamond shape between my front three and my most advanced central midfielder, Kovacic. As the ball progresses up the pitch I wanted them to be able to roam, swap positions but always have this shape or as close to this as possible. 

In the second image, I was extremely happy with my teams positioning when we regain the ball in the middle of the pitch. As Kovacic picks up the ball in a deeper area, he instantly has four or five viable passing options in order to advance the ball. 

 

• Bodies in the box

I am a big believer of packing the box with bodies in order to pressurise defenders and create gaps and opportunities for your strikers. In the below example against Tottenham, I was happy to see my attacking front three and also my winger urgently getting into the box in order to give Chilwell options as he moves towards the box. This move actually ends in Hudson-Odoi scoring a back post header as the covering center back was occupied by Mason Mount, leaving the Tottenham full back to drop in extremely narrow into a position they aren't comfortable in.

 

The Negatives

• Space in behind

The most frustrating aspect of this tactic was the amount of times teams scored via long balls over the top into the highlighted spaces. Granted, we had the second best defence in the league so I can't be too critical but I feel like it's only fair to give both positives and negatives from my one season so far.

In the first image, a lofted ball from Kouyate cuts straight through our defence for Zaha to get onto the end of and score. While I know these can happen to any team and are extremely hard to counteract, I was worried to see the two spare players on the far side of the pitch in acres of space.

In the second image, it was again a long ball from deep into the space between my central and right hand center back that we couldn't seem to deal with. 

 

 

• Mason Mount

I am an extremely big fan of Mason Mount in real life and also on Football Manager. I think he is such a well rounded player which a great eye for goal. Which unfortunately, seemed to be missing for him in our Premier League campaign as he scored just 5 goals in 34 appearances. He was scoring in other competitions though so I am hoping next season, he can add to his tally. 

Season results 

Please see below the performance in all competitions this season.

 

Great work. I would be interested to see the PI's or full tactic. Would you be able to share?