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Should Football Manager remove attributes? | FM21

Domathon
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Mikal

Mikal

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Posted

This is how I like to play my saves, I’ve done this for the past two versions. I get a greater sense of realism, achievement and immersion with my team/players when I’m judging them on performance, analytical stats etc. and not X player is better than Y player in Z attribute so I will play them. It’s especially fun when it comes to scouting.

unfortunately, due to how poorly a lot of the stats have been tracking for players this year I had to stop (am hoping it’s fixed with the latest patch so I can go back to it).

I’d encourage those who are interested in an attributeless skin to check out the below thread:

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/544709-fm21skin-non-numeric-attributes-★-updated-february-8th/

 

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Tyburn

Tyburn

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I play without atttibutes, but seeing as there is already a way to play like this, I do not see the benefit for SI to start out this way.

If they did release the vanilla game without attributes all every skin would be doing would be adding them back in again! :) 

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Tyburn

Tyburn

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You can remove the whole thing if you really wanted. A fellow user plays with the analysis wheel only, and then relies on coach/scout reports.

I also play without any star ratings. No mention of CA/PA/reputation anywhere. No atttibutes, no stars, just coach and scout reports. No player or staff search buttons either. Need to rely on adverts for staff or what my scouts bring me only.

If SI wanted to release a skin like this as an option, that would be great, but seeing as they allow us to skin the game ourselves (always have) then I guess they don’t need to.

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Brother Ben

Brother Ben

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7 minutes ago, roykela said:

I'd love to have that as an option.
But not replacing the attributes with stars, like in that skin.
I'd want it to be the coach reports and/or the scout reports instead.

I like this, a more comprehensive coach report would be great.  Keep the attributes as an option though for people who like their FM easy ;)

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Mars_Blackmon

Mars_Blackmon

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5 hours ago, Domathon said:

very interesting idea, what do you think?

 

Not completely remove them but it should be a option in the game. Some skins have them but everyone don’t like the same skins and it can be a pain to try to instal them into a skin that you really like if you don’t really know what you are doing…

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Daveincid

Daveincid

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I like the idea of making the exact number invisible, so they are not "removed", it's just less clear for the user how good a player is, but it is still a range available. The mechanism in the background doesn't need to be changed.

Completely removing isn't possible. I mean how should researchers rate the players without attributes?:lol: 

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Tyburn

Tyburn

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53 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

I like the idea of making the exact number invisible, so they are not "removed", it's just less clear for the user how good a player is, but it is still a range available. The mechanism in the background doesn't need to be changed.

Completely removing isn't possible. I mean how should researchers rate the players without attributes?:lol: 

They can still use the metric behind the scenes but the graphics can be removed.

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Daveincid

Daveincid

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Gerade eben schrieb Tyburn:

They can still use the metric behind the scenes but the graphics can be removed.

that's what I meant:) The title says: "Should FM remove attributes". Down to my understanding this means just remove them completely, and not just the visual aspect:D

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Daveincid

Daveincid

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Gerade eben schrieb Tyburn:

Ha! That’s pretty deep man :) 

It's not my strenght to understand other people straight away:lol: But I am sure the OP meant the visual presentation, and removing them completely! As I said I really love that way of play:) I made a YT-video about the benefits of it^^

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Daveincid

Daveincid

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Gerade eben schrieb Brother Ben:

Imagine the meltdown on this forum if they removed all attributes permanently   

Would be glorious to see  :lol: 

it's like checking your personal bank accout: "Your current balance is between -2000 and +4000".

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Mars_Blackmon

Mars_Blackmon

Posted
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28 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:

Imagine the meltdown on this forum if they removed all attributes permanently   

Would be glorious to see  :lol: 

Got a small glimpse of it when they removed the % for condition. 
 

in fact, the option to have icons or some sort of star ⭐️ ratings for attribute would be awesome. Attribute masking with ratings ranging from different numbers just doesn’t look pretty…

 

SI should seriously look into this. It could be helpful especially if they were able to make the stars/icons relative to the league you are in. 
 

a 10 in lower leagues would look like a 16 in a top league.

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Brother Ben

Brother Ben

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16 minutes ago, roykela said:

That would be a glorious disaster for one's own amusement :lol:

So true :lol:

People do not like change at all. 

Fitness percentages being a prime example and I was one of the ones who hated it but I feel free now.  I would genuinely pick a player who was 93% fit over 92% and now its so much more straight forward.  One thing I would like to see is there be some jeapardy in this.  Players lie constantly in real life about their fitness to get game time and I think that should be represented somehow

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Daveincid

Daveincid

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vor 8 Minuten schrieb Mars_Blackmon:

in fact, the option to have icons or some sort of star ⭐️ ratings for attribute would be awesome. Attribute masking with ratings ranging from different numbers just doesn’t look pretty…

agree! but replacing numbers with stars would lead to milkyway's debut in fm, so many stars:lol: 

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Daveincid

Daveincid

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Gerade eben schrieb Mars_Blackmon:

Lol my eyes would hurt even more than it does now when using attribute masking with the numbers.

lol, I really wonder why the "big fishes" of skinning didn't catch this already and implemented it in their portfolio of released skins:D Flut, priisek, OPZ and so on!

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Brother Ben

Brother Ben

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

I have no clue how skinning works, so I don't know if the current tools provided from SI are enough to improve this kind of skin. Orherwise it might be worth a post in the feature request forum?

@Tyburn is very much in the process of making something similar

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Daveincid

Daveincid

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Mars_Blackmon:

I agee, I had to stop using my favorite skin because i valued the attribute mod more.

I can't go back anymore, even if I try so hard, my mouse always goes to preferences and changes it back to a skin with "no attributes":lol:

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Sned

Sned

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I think the change in this version of how condition is represented is great and it definitely triggered my thinking about how I'd feel about a change in attributes as well. On reflection I think I'd definitely be in favour of it (as an option for those that wanted to use it rather than a permanent thing).

If I'm comparing two players, 'under the hood' they would still have differing attributes that would hopefully be reflected in their stats and coach/scouting reports, or represented in the match engine, but on the face of it I'd see two players that might be 'exceptional', or 'good' at certain attributes, much like I would if I was comparing players I was watching IRL.

While I always appreciate the passion of a lot of FM players, I'm sometimes a bit bemused when I see data requests saying 'he's rated 14 for this, but it should definitely be 16 instead', without any real reason. I wonder if this sort of change might stop some of that and get people to look at a players overall ability rather than becoming transfixed on a few numbers that they deem too low?

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Mars_Blackmon

Mars_Blackmon

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2 hours ago, Snedhead said:

I think the change in this version of how condition is represented is great and it definitely triggered my thinking about how I'd feel about a change in attributes as well. On reflection I think I'd definitely be in favour of it (as an option for those that wanted to use it rather than a permanent thing).

If I'm comparing two players, 'under the hood' they would still have differing attributes that would hopefully be reflected in their stats and coach/scouting reports, or represented in the match engine, but on the face of it I'd see two players that might be 'exceptional', or 'good' at certain attributes, much like I would if I was comparing players I was watching IRL.

While I always appreciate the passion of a lot of FM players, I'm sometimes a bit bemused when I see data requests saying 'he's rated 14 for this, but it should definitely be 16 instead', without any real reason. I wonder if this sort of change might stop some of that and get people to look at a players overall ability rather than becoming transfixed on a few numbers that they deem too low?

If done right, it could add a lot to the game. I really like the data and stats put into the game in the last few years and that is something that often get overlooked. Especially match day analytics.

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zindrinho

zindrinho

Posted
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I'm not very well versed in skins, but if it's just a skin and nothing's really changed in the game code, wouldn't sorting players by attributes (which in this case is colored stars) show who's yellow or green star which is actually the highest number?

example; Where you see 4 guys who all have yelllow star on finishing, the game knows those stars are just another presentation of the actual Finishing stats for those players, so when you ask the game to sort from high to low it will show you who has the actual highest finishing stat?

I hope that makes any sense at all :D

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wkdsoul

wkdsoul

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Posted
11 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I believe there is a graphical mod that hides attributes floating around, for anyone who wants to try a world without attributes.

Yeah i did 2 last year, with with no attributes, and one with stars/bars.   The latter 2 have been made again this year by others.  Its a popular mod. 

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sporadicsmiles

sporadicsmiles

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1 hour ago, wkdsoul said:

Yeah i did 2 last year, with with no attributes, and one with stars/bars.   The latter 2 have been made again this year by others.  Its a popular mod. 

It is not something I tried, I just spotted it and thought it looked interesting. I know that if I downloaded the skin I would end up spending so much of my time manually watching players like a scout to check my own scouts that I would never actually play any games. That is for the attributes being entirely blocked. The other two I personally do not see as any different to what I already do. I already colour code the numbers with specific colours so I can glance at a player and instantly understand how good he is. Still, that is just me. 

Generally I am not in favour of removing the attributes entirely. They are somehow quite core to how the game works and I'm okay with that. Plus it is easier to handle than any other system. However this is the kind of thing that would be a perfect option you can have for when you start a save, so if you want it, you can have it. Nobody can really complain about more choice. And the mechanic exists already. Attribute masking is a thing (I always play with this), so it should be trivial to extend that to be always active. 

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Platinum

Platinum

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Posted (edited)

No they shouldnt be removed unless the scout and coach reports have a massive overhaul as we just wouldn't have enough information about the skills of a player. 

However what I think the best solution is this (everyone that supports this please go in the thread and give your support):

@Domathoncould you link this in the OP please?

 

@Daveincid @Mars_Blackmon @roykela @Brother Ben @Tyburn my feature request above could be of interest to you all

Edited by francis#17
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Daveincid

Daveincid

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vor 8 Minuten schrieb francis#17:

No they shouldnt be removed unless the scout and reports have a massive overhaul as we just wouldn't have enough information about the skills of a player. 

However what I think the best solution is this (everyone that supports this please go in the thread and give your support):

@Domathoncould you link this in the OP please?

 

@Daveincid @Mars_Blackmon @roykela @Brother Ben @Tyburn my feature request above could be of interest to you all

I saw it

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Etebaer

Etebaer

Posted
Posted (edited)

Neither the 3D Match nor the Data give any good clue what a player is able to do plus each player is only as good as the team he is in and the coach that sets that team up etc.

It would make you a much attribute blinder manager ingame than in reality especially with the excellent datatracking nowadays.

There is hard data like strength, speed, acceleration, agility etc. and relative data how a player compares in a competition like in dribblings, passing, tackles etc. but FM gives you a pretty unhelpful stock of data to use - i rarely find the players i like on stars or stats - its all attributes!

Edited by Etebaer
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Brother Ben

Brother Ben

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, ajw10 said:

This game cannot track stats properly at all and people want to do away with attributes? :D

If they remove it completely from the game, SI will lose a lot of customers including myself.

We're not suggesting that they are done away with just that we move towards a more realistic system.

If you'd told me 15 years ago that we'd do away with the sliders and we'd have roles I'd have thought you were mad, likewise for 3D.  I thought that would never happen.

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Mars_Blackmon

Mars_Blackmon

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6 hours ago, Etebaer said:

Neither the 3D Match nor the Data give any good clue what a player is able to do plus each player is only as good as the team he is in and the coach that sets that team up etc.

It would make you a much attribute blinder manager ingame than in reality especially with the excellent datatracking nowadays.

There is hard data like strength, speed, acceleration, agility etc. and relative data how a player compares in a competition like in dribblings, passing, tackles etc. but FM gives you a pretty unhelpful stock of data to use - i rarely find the players i like on stars or stats - its all attributes!

You still have that in the game without pin point attribute numbers. There are the reports and even the attribute graph to name a few…

 

I think the main point is that people want an alternative to the pin point accuracy we currently get with attributes. Attribute masking is poor in its current form and its due for some upgrades.

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Daveincid

Daveincid

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb Etebaer:

Neither the 3D Match nor the Data give any good clue what a player is able to do plus each player is only as good as the team he is in and the coach that sets that team up etc.

It would make you a much attribute blinder manager ingame than in reality especially with the excellent datatracking nowadays.

There is hard data like strength, speed, acceleration, agility etc. and relative data how a player compares in a competition like in dribblings, passing, tackles etc. but FM gives you a pretty unhelpful stock of data to use - i rarely find the players i like on stars or stats - its all attributes!

 

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Mars_Blackmon:

You still have that in the game without pin point attribute numbers. There are the reports and even the attribute graph to name a few…

Exactly, scout report already gives you valuable informations. I hope there will be improvements in this regard, at least they locked my feature request which goes in that direction:

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/544164-suggestion-add-more-infos-to-scouting-report-in-terms-of-player-attributes/?tab=comments#comment-12977175

 

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Etebaer

Etebaer

Posted
Posted
vor 2 Stunden schrieb Daveincid:

 

Exactly, scout report already gives you valuable informations. I hope there will be improvements in this regard, at least they locked my feature request which goes in that direction:

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/544164-suggestion-add-more-infos-to-scouting-report-in-terms-of-player-attributes/?tab=comments#comment-12977175

 

Yeah, i started in the lower leagues and i have 1 Scout with a scouting of 3...and none other for hire available since 2 seasons :P

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